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Post by rational on Jun 7, 2015 12:38:19 GMT -5
Do you really need a divine law giver to know it is not a good thing to poke a stick into your neighbor's eye? Do you really need a divine law giver to know it is a good thing to help someone who has fallen in a ditch? Do you really need a divine law giver to know it is a good thing to bring food to your neighbors when they are ill? Come on, even my 6 year old grandchild knows it is a good thing to help shovel snow from the driveway across the road because the father has MS and can only shovel with difficulty. Instead of wondering about the divine law giver I wonder about the people who have difficulty functioning without one. Yes, you do need a Divine Law. But you actually need more than Law. You need a conscience. Get real, there are people who will poke a stick in someone's eye. You have made a shift from where these 'laws' come from to the behavior of people. I think you would be hard pressed to show that those who believe in the divine law giver have 'less' of a conscience.Does a divine law giver solve that problem? There always have been but how does this relate to a divine law giver? Yep. Except for the fact that you choose to call these transgressions 'sin' how does the divine law given enter the picture? People know what is right and wrong. The divine law giver is superfluous.Really? You don't think an animal can have some degree of empathy for another and act in a way that is to the benefit of the other animal?You are speaking for yourself, I assume?Well, that certainly is an extraordinary claim so I assume you have extraordinary proof that this is the case?I disagree. I do not agree that children should be stoned to death if they do not respect their parents. I might even venture to say that parents that believe that do not deserve respect. I do not believe that a woman who has sex before marriage should be killed. You have demonstrated that people know right and wrong. Not that all believe the same thing but some idea of right and wrong. What you have failed to show is the requirement for a divine law giver.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 14:36:42 GMT -5
I'm not going to quibble about ethics/conscience, etc. with you. If you think these are things that have evolved socially, etc. that's fine with me. My original points were two-fold, and you can take these two points or leave these two points. 1) if there is no punishment for sin after death, then there is no ultimate justice. 2) The conscience comes from the Creator. I'm not going to argue about this. You have your opinion and I have mine. I'm not going to change your mind, and your not going to change my mind. I don't need any proof for my beliefs. To me, they make sense.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 14:38:44 GMT -5
You are the one demanding evidence. If you don't like my logic for the existence of a God , that's your problem. I think the issue is that the logical reasons you keep talking about have not been seen. I can say the same for you and your belief system.
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Post by snow on Jun 7, 2015 16:56:46 GMT -5
Yes many people believe in God for other reasons. But I have had quite a few people tell me there needs to be a hell. So is this belief a subconscious aspect of belief in an afterlife where justice is served if they don't get punishment in their lifetime? It definitely is a part of it in the discussions I've had with people regarding hell. I don't know if I'd personally call it a subconscious aspect of belief in an afterlife where justice is served. But, I do think that justice for misdeeds makes sense, in the here and in the here-after. Okay, that's where we disagree I guess. I don't think the afterlife needs a hell so people who got away with things finally get what they 'deserve'. Thank you for your answers though.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 7, 2015 19:00:35 GMT -5
Is dying and not facing a judge or prison, a bad thing? Yes. There's no justice in it. If one dies and doesn't face a judge, they get away with it.
I don't see justice is such a scenario. We, with our human minds, know that a crime deserves a punishment. The Greatest Mind (God), surely requires punishment for misdeeds.
I look at humanity as being 'in the image of God', only flawed because of the fall.
We go about doing things that God does:
1) creating. 2) reproducing (remember, the bible says man and woman were created in His image). 3) attempting to create life (although no one has been able to artificially do so apart from biogenesis).
4) judging. 5) creating laws. 6) I'm sure there's a lot more one could come up with.
We are a reflection of the Creator, only we are fallen.
Yet, what goes on down here shows what God does, only what He does in on a bigger scale.
So, if we know that a crime deserves punishment, God (the Perfect Judge) also punishes.
No one gets away with anything.
They may think they do, but they don't.
Do you ever wonder, that if this is true that "humanity is the image of God" and we have all those traits in ourselves that we see in a god, that perhaps we have created God in our image rather than He creating us in His image?
Wouldn't this explain why our gods have changed throughout history according to what we need at that particular time or local ?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 7, 2015 19:29:48 GMT -5
Yes, you do need a Divine Law. But you actually need more than Law. You need a conscience. Get real, there are people who will poke a stick in someone's eye. There are people who don't care for their neighbors. There are people who do murder for personal gain. There are people who will get behind the wheel of a car when drunk. There are people who will sex with another when they know they'll give their partner a disease. The list goes on and on. I say they KNOW these things are wrong and do them anyways. That's called sin. All of our moral laws distinguish us from the lower species. Why do we think about morality when the lower species don't necessarily abide by ethics? It's because we, as humans were given these laws, and they are imprinted in our beings by the Divine Law Giver
Whether we are atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, Christian or whatever, we know the difference between right and wrong.
Why you still insist that I am in need of a "Divine Law," even as an atheist who doesn't believe that there is evidence for a "Divine Being?"
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 19:35:48 GMT -5
Quote - "Wouldn't this explain why our gods have changed throughout history according to what we need at that particular time or local ?"
Dmmichgood, maybe you can answer these ones?
1 - how did God change over the 2,000 odd years of the OT and NT? 2 - why do you focus on what religions have in common, rather than how they differ? 3 - how was the mythical biblical God so prescient about the fate of His people the Jews?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 19:48:10 GMT -5
Quote - "Wouldn't this explain why our gods have changed throughout history according to what we need at that particular time or local ?" Dmmichgood, maybe you can answer these ones?
1 - how did God change over the 2,000 odd years of the OT and NT? 2 - why do you focus on what religions have in common, rather than how they differ? 3 - how was the mythical biblical God so prescient about the fate of His people the Jews?
Bert, I think it's hopeless arguing with him. He clearly is a humanist, who has no belief in God, and no respect for our views. He goes on and on and on, and from point to point to point. There' never an end to it. No matter what we say, he finds fault in it. He has no proof that there isn't a God, and can't even explain where matter came from where life came from, or how matter could come into being in the vacuum of nothingness. Those who believe those things do so by faith, yet they say we are illogical for having faith in God. I don't think it's worth the fight any more.
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Post by rational on Jun 7, 2015 20:54:19 GMT -5
I'm not going to quibble about ethics/conscience, etc. with you. If you think these are things that have evolved socially, etc. that's fine with me. My original points were two-fold, and you can take these two points or leave these two points. 1) if there is no punishment for sin after death, then there is no ultimate justice. That sounds true.A different one for each person? Or is there a template?That is probably for the best. That too is probably for the best.
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Post by rational on Jun 7, 2015 20:58:03 GMT -5
I think the issue is that the logical reasons you keep talking about have not been seen. I can say the same for you and your belief system. You could. But my beliefs are based on logical or material support. You keep claiming that you have provided logical reasons but I have been unable to find them in any of your posts. I was thinking that I had missed them but @matt10 was not able to locate them either. What do you have against restating your syllogism for your belief(s)?
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Post by rational on Jun 7, 2015 21:13:53 GMT -5
Bert, I think it's hopeless arguing with him. He clearly is a humanist, who has no belief in God, and no respect for our views. He goes on and on and on, and from point to point to point. There' never an end to it. No matter what we say, he finds fault in it. You continue to claim logical support but fail to provide it. I don't know if I respect your reasoning or not because there is no reasoning - just a statement.You do understand that the burden of proof regarding a god is really on the shoulders of those making the claim. I am sorry that the explanation of the physics behind the theory of quantum fluctuations is not easier to explain but at least the events have been theorized and observed. Is it where all energy/matter came from? Who knows but it is a start. The interesting thing is that no one has observed nothingness so what may or may not happen in that case is really unknown. What happens when there is something is well studied. But in the case of nothing - new territory.Those who believe those things have a logical mathematical explanation and have also observed the events expected taking place. Multiple times. Can you say the same about a paranormal being?Think of it as a discussion. One side presents facts and logical explanations and the other side responds. Both sides stand to learn from the experience. Not understanding something is very different from "God did it".
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 7, 2015 21:46:17 GMT -5
If you don't know anything about B.F. Skinner the Thorndike Law, it might be a good idea to check them out.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 22:13:15 GMT -5
There is neither 1 - proof of God 2 - disproof of God
Some see 1 - evidence for God 2 - no evidence for God
All use 1 - evidence and proof for God if they believe 2 - lack-of-evidence and lack-of-proof if they disbelieve.
Everyone has to reach these fundamental conclusions solely upon their human condition.
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Post by rational on Jun 7, 2015 22:36:30 GMT -5
This would seem to imply an innate belief in god. There is neither 1 - proof of God 2 - disproof of God If there is no proof why would there need to be disproof? Disproof is sought only after a claim of proof has been offered.
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Post by slowtosee on Jun 7, 2015 22:46:03 GMT -5
Or....for a believer, just reverse the proof disproof... if there is no disproof, no proof is needed...... remember key word - believer. Alvin. I believe my wife loves me , no proof really, no disproof required.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 22:47:32 GMT -5
You know what I mean
I mean that we can't prove God exists, we can't disprove God exists. God, by definition, lies outside the universe he or she created or was claimed to create.
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Post by rational on Jun 7, 2015 22:57:06 GMT -5
You know what I mean :( I mean that we can't prove God exists, we can't disprove God exists. God, by definition, lies outside the universe he or she created or was claimed to create. ...God, by some definitions...
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 7, 2015 23:21:06 GMT -5
Quote - "Wouldn't this explain why our gods have changed throughout history according to what we need at that particular time or local ?" Dmmichgood, maybe you can answer these ones?
1 - how did God change over the 2,000 odd years of the OT and NT?
2 - why do you focus on what religions have in common, rather than how they differ?
3 - how was the mythical biblical God so prescient about the fate of His people the Jews?
1) The god Yahweh, the god of the Abraham, was a "god of war" because that was what the people needed at that time.
They needed to destroy the other tribes because they needed the land. That is the reason their god Yahweh would tell them to commit genocide They needed to have a god that worked for them at that place in time and in their area and it did work well for them at that time. They succeeded.
Come to the New Testament & they needed a god that would deliver them from their captors, the Romans. Many would-be messiahs arose, -we don't have the records of all of them or even how many- but we do know the names of some.
These days people are more interested the need for a god of peace, love. Never-the-less, people still like to have it both ways, they want a god that will punish the "sinners" but also that loving peaceful god.
That really is what causes so much dissonance in their thinking, such a conflict in their beliefs that they keep trying to reconcile all those beliefs in some kind of harmonious whole.
2) All religions do have a lot in common!
3) The biblical God wasn't prescient, prophetic about the fate of the Jews! You have a whole bible to cherry pick what you think you see that isn't really there!
If you looked at the histories and documents of other religions & people, you could do the same
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 7, 2015 23:43:51 GMT -5
Quote - "Wouldn't this explain why our gods have changed throughout history according to what we need at that particular time or local ?" Dmmichgood, maybe you can answer these ones?
1 - how did God change over the 2,000 odd years of the OT and NT? 2 - why do you focus on what religions have in common, rather than how they differ? 3 - how was the mythical biblical God so prescient about the fate of His people the Jews?
Bert, I think it's hopeless arguing with him. He clearly is a humanist, who has no belief in God, and no respect for our views. He goes on and on and on, and from point to point to point. There' never an end to it.
No matter what we say, he finds fault in it. He has no proof that there isn't a God, and can't even explain where matter came from where life came from, or how matter could come into being in the vacuum of nothingness. Those who believe those things do so by faith, yet they say we are illogical for having faith in God. I don't think it's worth the fight any more.
Markwooten, is the above a response to what I said?
If so, -I wasn't aware of having a gender change! Humanists have far more more respect for your views than you are having for mine. How does anyone explain their position if they can't go from point to point? Do I need a proof that there isn't a God? Do I expect you to have proof that there isn't the Hindu god or the Norse god Thor? Isn't the need for proof the burden of the one that claims there is such a god?
Just because I can't explain "where matter came from, where life came from, or how matter could come into being in the vacuum of nothingness," does that mean I have to throw a GOD into that gap in my knowledge!
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Post by maryhig on Jun 8, 2015 0:09:13 GMT -5
I don't know if I'd personally call it a subconscious aspect of belief in an afterlife where justice is served. But, I do think that justice for misdeeds makes sense, in the here and in the here-after. Okay, that's where we disagree I guess. I don't think the afterlife needs a hell so people who got away with things finally get what they 'deserve'. Thank you for your answers though. Hi snow, so where do you think real wicked heart should go? People who purposely murder for pleasure. Who would murder children knowing their wrong. Who enslave and torture people and enjoy it. On this earth, would you put a child serial child killer in a house with children? I believe that God knows what he's doing, and that everything will be where it belongs.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2015 0:14:30 GMT -5
You know what I mean
I mean that we can't prove God exists, we can't disprove God exists. God, by definition, lies outside the universe he or she created or was claimed to create. ...God, by some definitions... Correct, the God of our Bible lies outside the creation, outside of time and space.
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Post by maryhig on Jun 8, 2015 0:27:39 GMT -5
Or....for a believer, just reverse the proof disproof... if there is no disproof, no proof is needed...... remember key word - believer. Alvin. I believe my wife loves me , no proof really, no disproof required. I believe my husband loves me because because he shows me in my life, and he does it by his actions. He's proved he loves me! By being there in hard times, by being someone to lean on, by taking care of me when I'm sick, by loving me even when I'm wrong but putting me right, by sharing my burdens, and by many many other things. He's someone I miss if I don't hear from him. And we are very close. And he loves me more, because I love him, And we both love God, which makes our love for one another stronger! I believe this is like God, when you give your heart to God, you will know him! And I believe that all love is from God. And God has also proved he's there to me, I know there's a living God! And he's full of love!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2015 0:31:21 GMT -5
This "God of the gaps" is an interesting theme. The saints of the bible didn't serve God because they thought He brought the rain. Many did - they didn't. Certainly they believe God could INTERVENE in events.
Science says "The rain comes from condensation of water vapor." Fine, but where does the energy come from to vaporize water? "Energy comes from the sun" Fine, but where does the sun's energy come from? "Sun's energy comes from the fusion of hydrogen to helium." Fine, but where does the inherent energy of hydrogen come from? 'From combined quark energy bound to it." Fine but where do quarks come from? "From the quark-gluon plasma of the Big Bang" Find but where does this plasma come from? "from space time after the big bang" Fine, where does the Big Bang come from" "Maybe from M-theory four dimensional fabric, maybe from an endless cycling of space time..."
I am tempted to call this the "Science of the Finite Regress" as opposed to the God of the Gaps. Science just PUSHES BACK THE CAUSES OF THINGS. But the ultimate cause, the big causes (ie multiverses) are simply beyond the reach of science.
But Dmmichgood, "God of the Gaps" is fashionable, and the alliteration is nice. "Science of the Finite Regress" isn't catchy, can't be understood, doesn't fit in with fashionable thinking and was invented by someone with the alias called Bert on a Proboard forum.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 8, 2015 1:43:13 GMT -5
This "God of the gaps" is an interesting theme. The saints of the bible didn't serve God because they thought He brought the rain. Many did - they didn't. Certainly they believe God could INTERVENE in events. .."
I am tempted to call this the "Science of the Finite Regress" as opposed to the God of the Gaps. Science just PUSHES BACK THE CAUSES OF THINGS. But the ultimate cause, the big causes (ie multiverses) are simply beyond the reach of science.
But Dmmichgood, "God of the Gaps" is fashionable, and the alliteration is nice. "Science of the Finite Regress" isn't catchy, can't be understood, doesn't fit in with fashionable thinking and was invented by someone with the alias called Bert on a Proboard forum. We know your "Gospel according to Bert."
You just keep working at it and your "Science of the Finite Regress" might just become fashionable also!
I don't know though, it is infinitely more interesting to see science at work than seeing just any old excuse being thrown into the "Gap."
(What "saints" of the bible didn't serve God because they thought He brought the rain?
True, Yahweh, the god of Abraham, was their "God of War," -just one of the gods of the OT who may not have brought rain, but they had other gods for rain, a god for a good harvest etc.)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2015 1:47:57 GMT -5
No it can never be fashionable because in the end WE are gods now, we sit on the throne of God and do not acknowledge anyone higher.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 8, 2015 2:03:57 GMT -5
No it can never be fashionable because in the end WE are gods now, we sit on the throne of God and do not acknowledge anyone higher. Ah, Bert don't give up so easily.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 8, 2015 2:07:45 GMT -5
...God, by some definitions... Correct, the God of our Bible lies outside the creation, outside of time and space. How about the god of the Vedas instead of the bible?
Where is that god?
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Post by ellie on Jun 8, 2015 5:51:15 GMT -5
...God, by some definitions... Correct, the God of our Bible lies outside the creation, outside of time and space.Are you saying that the God of the Bible always lies outside the creation, outside of time and space?
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