Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 20:50:22 GMT -5
Is there nothing that anyone can say that some of you can find no logic in? I don't recall saying "There are no laws of nature." Where did I say that? I've consistently said two things, with sub-thoughts to them, which are: 1) Something cannot come from Nothing (prove me wrong!) therefore Something has always existed. Within that Something there are Laws, called THE LAWS OF NATURE, which according to myself and most people, including many well-known scientists shows DESIGN; and 2) within this Something there is LIFE (Biogenesis) which it extends to matter. As far as I can tell, science teaches basically the same thing, only science tends to say that Something came from nothing (the vacuum of nothingness) and that biogenesis is not a reality (abiogenesis). Since science cannot prove these two things, I choose to believe that which takes no faith regarding that Something, including the common sense OPINION that this Something has Will and the ability to Design, using those Laws of Nature that have EXISTED FROM ETERNITY. So tell me. How is this saying there are no Natural Laws?
Finding something logical doesn't make it true. There is nothing illogical about my deciding that there are no mice in the house. What is lacking is a sound argument for that conclusion. If you're satisfied with your logic, that's your prerogative. First of all, your mouse analogy really doesn't prove anything. Secondly, I believe that my logic is just as logical as believing that a vacuum can design the universe. In fact, I'd say it's more believable seeing that I have not gone against any scientific formulas. oNe would have believe the vacuum by faith.t
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 20:56:57 GMT -5
I don't know about other areas of the world, but the definition of 'hell' to the f&w around here is never expounded upon too much. When I first came in contact with them, I asked what hell was and was told "We don't really know." Punishment is a universally accepted concept. People do need to be punished.
But, the punishment must fit the crime, otherwise it WOULD be an unjust punishment.
I think God will be just in His judgments.
Whatever hell is, it wont be unfair. The crime WILL fit the punishment.
Did the crime fit the punishment when god destroyed all of the humans & animals, except a few, when GOD sent a flood on the whole earth & killed all animals & even children that hadn't done any crime?
Did the crime fit the punishment when god told the Israelites to kill even the "suckling child " in 1Samuel 15:3?
Since I wasn't there I can't say what all of the specifics were in regards to the wiping out of whole civilizations. I do know that many people today have no problem with killing innocents, yet they have a problem with the Lord, the Source of all Life reclaiming the life He Himself bestowed to the individual. The day that humanity can claim ownership over the universe, that'll be the day they can make the rules. Until then, God can do as He likes.... Which will be forever. Since man is not in control. Also, I accept my version of God as He is. I don't expect others to love or accept Him.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 20:57:52 GMT -5
I'm not looking for evidence. I'm looking for logical reasons. That's what you said you could provide. Are you claiming now that you also have evidence to support the existence of a loving, caring, ailment curing, soul saving God? I'd be surprised if you were to stray into that territory. Most people here when asked for evidence for the Christian god either stick to providing evidence to support the existence of a creator God or are reduced to quoting texts from Christian books which isn't really evidence at all. Matt10 You are the one demanding evidence. If you don't like my logic for the existence of a God , that's your problem. I'm not trying to give 'evidence' about the character of the Creator. I'm simply discussing the bible with others, expressing my personal beliefs about what I think. Unfortunately, if you hold beliefs, you probably can't prove them either. You remind me of the school bully, who felt it necessary to go about belittling others in the playground. I keep asking you questions about claims you have made on a public forum about God. You keep responding about me (usually negatively) rather than posting about the issues. Is there any reason why you should continually prefer to post remarks about me rather than discussing the issues in question, issues which you yourself have raised on the board? Do you think any of the questions have been unfair? Do you think one should not be entitled to challenge claims made about God on a public form? Or do the questions risk exposing flaws in your arguments for the existence of [your God]? Playing the man rather than the ball tends to indicate that one has lost the argument. It does no harm to remember that this is a public forum and it is entirely reasonable for people to challenge claims that are made. Particularly claims about God. Of course you are under no obligation to answer and people can draw their own conclusions. My job here is to expose flaws in the arguments for the existence of the Christian God. Please try not to take the questioning personally. Matt10
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 21:07:01 GMT -5
Gene, there's a lot in your post! I'm taking it that you're asking me my thoughts on "What if there isn't a Law Giver" and "Does morality evolve?" Well, if there is no Law Giver, then logically there is no sin. The bible even says (I don't have the reference because I'm not home) "there is no sin where there is no law." It says that if God had not said "Thou shalt not do this or that (paraphrased of course) that it is not a sin to do this or that. So, if God had not forbade Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil, it would not have caused the downfall of the human race. It would not have been a sin for them to eat of it. So, sin is only sin if a Divine Lawmaker says it's a sin. Any man made moral codes apart from God are just intellectual opinions. There's no way one can say "Don't don't rob an AMPM" or "Don't do heroine" or "Don't have multiple wives" because there is no reason to conclude that evil exists. There's no reason for one to not pursue 'the survival of the fittest. If there is no Moral Law Giver, we might as well as eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.
As far as morality being learned.... I'm not so sure it's learned. I think it's natural for people to know the difference between good and evil. For instance, I know some people who were raised in a 'sex cult.' These people were taught that all consulting adults within the group should 'share' wives. There was no limit on the age one could 'experiement' or 'teach' another about 'love.' This group even sanctioned 'God's ladys', where married members would go out and 'become fishers of men' to preach and raise funds for 'the church.' Horrific? Yes. And the vast majority of the children raised in this group go away as adults disgusted by the group. So, in this case, teaching 'morals' to a child does not work, because those children know instinctively that this sort of behavior is abhorable. Yet, if there is no god, why think such a thing abhorable? Who's to say that this sort of activity is wrong? The fact is, those who participate in such activity are horrified themselves at first, but slowly sear their God-given consciences to the point where this activity is 'normal' to them. If I'm allowed to give my opinion here, I'd say it's the same with those who deny the existence of a god. At first one doesn't want to 'go there'. Then, they read a little here, they read a little there, and pretty soon they are 'convinced' that there is no god. This is also the 'searing of the conscience.' Regarding societies evolving morally. Sure. Societies evolve politically, socially, morally.... And then eventually go to he'll in a hand basket. Look at ancient Egyot compared to the Dark Ages. Look at Rome in all of her glory compared to the Dark Ages. Great circulations come and go. Right now we seem to be moving toward the New World Order, which may bring some peace and prosperity, but probably at the expense if privacy and personal rights. JMO. But, whatever strides humanity seems to be making won't last in the ling haul. Human nature, although equipped with a conscience is basically selfish (due to sin), so progress is generally ruined by our own selfishness. Look at the former Soviet Union. What a great idea to base a nation on equality, shared wealth and freedom from that Bearded Man in the sky! Did this idealism work? No. So, to answer you: yes, civilizations may progress morally, but it never seems to last. I think evolution of morality is like a dance. Sometimes it 1 step forward and 2 steps back, but then the rhythm changes and it's 3 steps forward and 1 step back and when that happens we reach a new line. Different cultures also seem to be at different levels of moral evolution. We are a world that intermingles a lot now and that means we have people that are at all stages of moral evolution. If we some things that are not up to our idea of morality, it may just be that person isn't there yet. It is societies responsibility to keep moving that bar higher and higher so that even those that are at lower stages of evolution are higher than they used to be. There is also the fact that there are brain imbalances that have people born with no ability to feel remorse for example. They can't feel what they are incapable of feeling. So society dictates to them what is acceptable social behavior. If they cross that line and harm others they are kept separate from the rest. Your comment about no sin, I do not believe we sin. At least not in the sense that we are breaking a supreme beings set of rules. We do make bad judgement calls and many mistakes, and sometimes that's going to have the consequences of going to prison or some other consequence, but it's not a sin as religion defines it. I too am enjoying this conversation. I wish I was as good at it as Gene, but I do offer my point of view anyway, for whatever that's worth... I know you don't believe in sin. But, in reality Theism has a more just belief system seeing no one ever really "gets away with anything" whereas with atheism millions die, having never had to face a judge or prison in this life.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 21:11:14 GMT -5
Here are some more thoughts. They may sound lame to you, but it's the best I've got at this time. IMO the world is falling apart. This is due to sin, mortality, and the 'curse' that God placed upon humanity. IMO we are all 'in ADAM', and thus suffer, as we were all literally in him when he fell. So, we logically share in 'the curse.' But, from the first book of Genesis one can jump to the last two chapters of the bible and see that everything will be reversed. We wont have the curse any longer. Instead of pain and suffering we will have joy. Instead of death we will have life. Instead of tears we'll have laughter. We wont remember the former things any longer. IMO God wants us to voluntarily come to Him. He doesn't coerce or force anyone to come to Him. If God intervened in our choices and in the Natural Occurrences that plague our lives (and doing everything us, including preventing auto accidents and disease would be intervening) then that would be interfering in our decisions. Jesus showed that He had the power to do just what you say you think God should do. He healed the sick, raised the dead, etc. This was a Fore-shadowing 0f what is to come in the end, when God does do what you think He should do. But, in the mean-time, we have to go through the Valley, until that valley leads to that wonderful city. And we have to do it through faith, and through an inner desire to actually get there. God isn't going to carry us all of the way, any more than one will carry their child their whole life long.
Mark I don't know how I got tagged as saying this, but I didn't post that. The first few sentences seem to be familiar, but the rest about concentration camps on, isn't by me. My bad. I'm technically challenged.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 21:13:16 GMT -5
I don't know about other areas of the world, but the definition of 'hell' to the f&w around here is never expounded upon too much. When I first came in contact with them, I asked what hell was and was told "We don't really know." Punishment is a universally accepted concept. People do need to be punished. But, the punishment must fit the crime, otherwise it WOULD be an unjust punishment. I think God will be just in His judgments. Whatever hell is, it wont be unfair. The crime WILL fit the punishment.
Well all we have to go on is what the bible states about hell and it does sound like a one size fits all situation. The RCC has tried to divide it up into purgatory, limbo (abolished it now though) etc. The Muslims seem to have more levels to their idea of hell than Christians too. I would hope that is there is a being like that he does take into consideration brain imbalances and chemistry when judging the deeds they may have done that he deems warrant punishment. I'm not sure that's true according to the bible though. I don't believe in any of that, because to me it makes no sense. But I have heard lots of people say hell is a good thing because some people should go there. That mindset has always amazed me and saddened me. No one deserves torment forever. As a parent I would never let me child suffer for a misdeed if I could prevent it. If God is loving, all knowing and all powerful you would think he would at least have as much compassion as an atheist. I disagree. Hell is actually a fascinating subject when studied in the Greek and Hebrew. Another whole subject though.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jun 5, 2015 22:02:51 GMT -5
Finding something logical doesn't make it true. There is nothing illogical about my deciding that there are no mice in the house. What is lacking is a sound argument for that conclusion. If you're satisfied with your logic, that's your prerogative. First of all, your mouse analogy really doesn't prove anything. Secondly, I believe that my logic is just as logical as believing that a vacuum can design the universe. In fact, I'd say it's more believable seeing that I have not gone against any scientific formulas. oNe would have believe the vacuum by faith.t You didn't get it -- I agreed that your logic was logical. It's just that I'm not interested in the logic.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jun 5, 2015 22:05:04 GMT -5
Did the crime fit the punishment when god destroyed all of the humans & animals, except a few, when GOD sent a flood on the whole earth & killed all animals & even children that hadn't done any crime?
Did the crime fit the punishment when god told the Israelites to kill even the "suckling child " in 1Samuel 15:3?
yes the punishment fit the crime 1. the earth was awash in bloodshed and sin and they would have taught their children to be the same 2. the Amalekites did great harm to isreal once they had left eygpt Wally, can I quote you in an ancient history class?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 23:02:45 GMT -5
First of all, your mouse analogy really doesn't prove anything. Secondly, I believe that my logic is just as logical as believing that a vacuum can design the universe. In fact, I'd say it's more believable seeing that I have not gone against any scientific formulas. oNe would have believe the vacuum by faith.t You didn't get it -- I agreed that your logic was logical. It's just that I'm not interested in the logic. Phreeewwww! I was getting paranoid! Thank you for the encouragement. I don't expect people to agree with me, as I know many don't. But I have to admit it was stimulating conversation! Thank, Bob.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Jun 5, 2015 23:38:48 GMT -5
Here are some more thoughts. They may sound lame to you, but it's the best I've got at this time. IMO the world is falling apart.
This is due to sin, mortality, and the 'curse' that God placed upon humanity.
IMO we are all 'in ADAM', and thus suffer, as we were all literally in him when he fell. So, we logically share in 'the curse.' But, from the first book of Genesis one can jump to the last two chapters of the bible and see that everything will be reversed. We wont have the curse any longer. Instead of pain and suffering we will have joy. Instead of death we will have life. Instead of tears we'll have laughter. We wont remember the former things any longer.
IMO God wants us to voluntarily come to Him.
He doesn't coerce or force anyone to come to Him. If God intervened in our choices and in the Natural Occurrences that plague our lives (and doing everything us, including preventing auto accidents and disease would be intervening) then that would be interfering in our decisions.
Jesus showed that He had the power to do just what you say you think God should do.He healed the sick, raised the dead, etc. This was a Fore-shadowing 0f what is to come in the end, when God does do what you think He should do. But, in the mean-time, we have to go through the Valley, until that valley leads to that wonderful city. And we have to do it through faith, and through an inner desire to actually get there. God isn't going to carry us all of the way, any more than one will carry their child their whole life long.
The first big question for me is why this whole scenario, -this framework of a postulated sequence or development of events that you have just expressed should even need to happen?
Why would any entity, such as the god to which you refer, -an entity which by Christianity claims is omnipotent ( all powerful) omnipresent, ( always present ) omniscient, ( all knowing), -why would such an entity, who would be so superior to the humans He created, -even feel any need to place a 'curse' on humanity?
What would be His purpose? Why would He make his own creation jump over hurdles, through hoops?
It just doesn't seem reasonable nor even morally right .
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jun 5, 2015 23:40:18 GMT -5
You didn't get it -- I agreed that your logic was logical. It's just that I'm not interested in the logic. Phreeewwww! I was getting paranoid! Thank you for the encouragement. I don't expect people to agree with me, as I know many don't. But I have to admit it was stimulating conversation! Thank, Bob. But you know that not all logic is valid, I hope.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 23:44:44 GMT -5
Here are some more thoughts. They may sound lame to you, but it's the best I've got at this time. IMO the world is falling apart.
This is due to sin, mortality, and the 'curse' that God placed upon humanity.
IMO we are all 'in ADAM', and thus suffer, as we were all literally in him when he fell. So, we logically share in 'the curse.' But, from the first book of Genesis one can jump to the last two chapters of the bible and see that everything will be reversed. We wont have the curse any longer. Instead of pain and suffering we will have joy. Instead of death we will have life. Instead of tears we'll have laughter. We wont remember the former things any longer.
IMO God wants us to voluntarily come to Him.
He doesn't coerce or force anyone to come to Him. If God intervened in our choices and in the Natural Occurrences that plague our lives (and doing everything us, including preventing auto accidents and disease would be intervening) then that would be interfering in our decisions.
Jesus showed that He had the power to do just what you say you think God should do.He healed the sick, raised the dead, etc. This was a Fore-shadowing 0f what is to come in the end, when God does do what you think He should do. But, in the mean-time, we have to go through the Valley, until that valley leads to that wonderful city. And we have to do it through faith, and through an inner desire to actually get there. God isn't going to carry us all of the way, any more than one will carry their child their whole life long.
The first big question for me is why this whole scenario, -this framework of a postulated sequence or development of events that you have just expressed should even need to happen?
Why would any entity, such as the god to which you refer, -an entity which by Christianity claims is omnipotent ( all powerful) omnipresent, ( always present ) omniscient, ( all knowing), -why would such an entity, who would be so superior to the humans He created, -even feel any need to place a 'curse' on humanity?
What would be His purpose? Why would He make his own creation jump over hurdles, through hoops?
It just doesn't seem reasonable nor even morally right .
The Good news is Christ came and saved humanity from the curse...
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Jun 5, 2015 23:49:10 GMT -5
Did the crime fit the punishment when god destroyed all of the humans & animals, except a few, when GOD sent a flood on the whole earth & killed all animals & even children that hadn't done any crime?
Did the crime fit the punishment when god told the Israelites to kill even the "suckling child " in 1Samuel 15:3?
Since I wasn't there I can't say what all of the specifics were in regards to the wiping out of whole civilizations. I do know that many people today have no problem with killing innocents, yet they have a problem with the Lord, the Source of all Life reclaiming the life He Himself bestowed to the individual. The day that humanity can claim ownership over the universe, that'll be the day they can make the rules. Until then, God can do as He likes.... Which will be forever. Since man is not in control. Also, I accept my version of God as He is. I don't expect others to love or accept Him. I notice that this is one of the usual answers that Christians tend to make, "God can do as He likes..."
I CAN'T accept that version of any god who does such terrible killings yet expects His creation to not do the same.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Jun 5, 2015 23:54:46 GMT -5
The first big question for me is why this whole scenario, -this framework of a postulated sequence or development of events that you have just expressed should even need to happen?
Why would any entity, such as the god to which you refer, -an entity which by Christianity claims is omnipotent ( all powerful) omnipresent, ( always present ) omniscient, ( all knowing), -why would such an entity, who would be so superior to the humans He created, -even feel any need to place a 'curse' on humanity?
What would be His purpose? Why would He make his own creation jump over hurdles, through hoops?
It just doesn't seem reasonable nor even morally right .
The Good news is Christ came and saved humanity from the curse... You miss the point, Wally.
No part of that scenario, - that whole framework of a postulated events in the bible never needed to happen.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2015 2:39:37 GMT -5
Quote - 'You miss the point, Wally. No part of that scenario, - that whole framework of a postulated events in the bible never needed to happen."
Dmmichgood says this. The bible says otherwise. "Opening them up and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ." Act 17:3
Recall the perfect male lamb, brought into the homes of God's people, and bonding there for three days before being slain and its blood daubed on the lintel. That was a symbol of the slain Christ, the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 6, 2015 15:28:06 GMT -5
I think evolution of morality is like a dance. Sometimes it 1 step forward and 2 steps back, but then the rhythm changes and it's 3 steps forward and 1 step back and when that happens we reach a new line. Different cultures also seem to be at different levels of moral evolution. We are a world that intermingles a lot now and that means we have people that are at all stages of moral evolution. If we some things that are not up to our idea of morality, it may just be that person isn't there yet. It is societies responsibility to keep moving that bar higher and higher so that even those that are at lower stages of evolution are higher than they used to be. There is also the fact that there are brain imbalances that have people born with no ability to feel remorse for example. They can't feel what they are incapable of feeling. So society dictates to them what is acceptable social behavior. If they cross that line and harm others they are kept separate from the rest. Your comment about no sin, I do not believe we sin. At least not in the sense that we are breaking a supreme beings set of rules. We do make bad judgement calls and many mistakes, and sometimes that's going to have the consequences of going to prison or some other consequence, but it's not a sin as religion defines it. I too am enjoying this conversation. I wish I was as good at it as Gene, but I do offer my point of view anyway, for whatever that's worth... I know you don't believe in sin. But, in reality Theism has a more just belief system seeing no one ever really "gets away with anything" whereas with atheism millions die, having never had to face a judge or prison in this life. Is dying and not facing a judge or prison, a bad thing?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2015 16:02:31 GMT -5
I know you don't believe in sin. But, in reality Theism has a more just belief system seeing no one ever really "gets away with anything" whereas with atheism millions die, having never had to face a judge or prison in this life. Is dying and not facing a judge or prison, a bad thing? really depends. if you've done something worthy of judgment or prison and didn't go you might have to answer to God later on... I.E pay now or pay later
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 6, 2015 17:16:20 GMT -5
The question I have asked myself years ago and also one or two people was whether my attitude to God would still be the same if there was no heaven; ie, no reward. I know the answer I came up with and would like to see what others think.
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Jun 6, 2015 17:27:34 GMT -5
The question I have asked myself years ago and also one or two people was whether my attitude to God would still be the same if there was no heaven; ie, no reward. I know the answer I came up with and would like to see what others think. Yep.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 6, 2015 18:08:11 GMT -5
Is dying and not facing a judge or prison, a bad thing? really depends. if you've done something worthy of judgment or prison and didn't go you might have to answer to God later on... I.E pay now or pay later So everyone needs to 'pay'? Is that why so many people hope there is a God? To make sure all those that got away with things in this life will get theirs when they die?
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 6, 2015 18:11:32 GMT -5
The question I have asked myself years ago and also one or two people was whether my attitude to God would still be the same if there was no heaven; ie, no reward. I know the answer I came up with and would like to see what others think. Yes. I never changed when I quit professing as far as how I loved and felt compassion etc. I never changed when I quit believing there was a God or a heaven either. Why would I? Does it take a belief in God and heaven/hell for people to do what is best? I think that should be the question really. Why would you need to believe in God and heaven/hell to feel the need to be kind, loving and compassionate?
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jun 6, 2015 18:13:54 GMT -5
The question I have asked myself years ago and also one or two people was whether my attitude to God would still be the same if there was no heaven; ie, no reward. I know the answer I came up with and would like to see what others think. Accepting this possibility frees on from the obsession with forever disputing what God requires of us and allows one to concentrate on making his own life worthwhile.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2015 18:17:28 GMT -5
really depends. if you've done something worthy of judgment or prison and didn't go you might have to answer to God later on... I.E pay now or pay later So everyone needs to 'pay'? Is that why so many people hope there is a God? To make sure all those that got away with things in this life will get theirs when they die? well some people may truly repent of what they did and God wont hold them accountable. I am sure that there are some people that focus on the repayment aspect of Christs return others do not.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2015 19:57:05 GMT -5
Here are some more thoughts. They may sound lame to you, but it's the best I've got at this time. IMO the world is falling apart.
This is due to sin, mortality, and the 'curse' that God placed upon humanity.
IMO we are all 'in ADAM', and thus suffer, as we were all literally in him when he fell. So, we logically share in 'the curse.' But, from the first book of Genesis one can jump to the last two chapters of the bible and see that everything will be reversed. We wont have the curse any longer. Instead of pain and suffering we will have joy. Instead of death we will have life. Instead of tears we'll have laughter. We wont remember the former things any longer.
IMO God wants us to voluntarily come to Him.
He doesn't coerce or force anyone to come to Him. If God intervened in our choices and in the Natural Occurrences that plague our lives (and doing everything us, including preventing auto accidents and disease would be intervening) then that would be interfering in our decisions.
Jesus showed that He had the power to do just what you say you think God should do.He healed the sick, raised the dead, etc. This was a Fore-shadowing 0f what is to come in the end, when God does do what you think He should do. But, in the mean-time, we have to go through the Valley, until that valley leads to that wonderful city. And we have to do it through faith, and through an inner desire to actually get there. God isn't going to carry us all of the way, any more than one will carry their child their whole life long.
The first big question for me is why this whole scenario, -this framework of a postulated sequence or development of events that you have just expressed should even need to happen?
Why would any entity, such as the god to which you refer, -an entity which by Christianity claims is omnipotent ( all powerful) omnipresent, ( always present ) omniscient, ( all knowing), -why would such an entity, who would be so superior to the humans He created, -even feel any need to place a 'curse' on humanity?
What would be His purpose? Why would He make his own creation jump over hurdles, through hoops?
It just doesn't seem reasonable nor even morally right .
I don't know. I can only tell you my thoughts; but my thoughts may not be right. I've always assumed that He has done this for one main reason: to create a people who choose Him on their own free will. People who have been through all of the pain and suffering this creation brings them, and then to still say "I'm Yours."
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2015 19:59:01 GMT -5
Since I wasn't there I can't say what all of the specifics were in regards to the wiping out of whole civilizations. I do know that many people today have no problem with killing innocents, yet they have a problem with the Lord, the Source of all Life reclaiming the life He Himself bestowed to the individual. The day that humanity can claim ownership over the universe, that'll be the day they can make the rules. Until then, God can do as He likes.... Which will be forever. Since man is not in control. Also, I accept my version of God as He is. I don't expect others to love or accept Him. I notice that this is one of the usual answers that Christians tend to make, "God can do as He likes..."
I CAN'T accept that version of any god who does such terrible killings yet expects His creation to not do the same. And that's your right.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2015 20:04:25 GMT -5
I know you don't believe in sin. But, in reality Theism has a more just belief system seeing no one ever really "gets away with anything" whereas with atheism millions die, having never had to face a judge or prison in this life. Is dying and not facing a judge or prison, a bad thing? Yes. There's no justice in it. If one dies and doesn't face a judge, they get away with it. I don't see justice is such a scenario. We, with our human minds, know that a crime deserves a punishment. The Greatest Mind (God), surely requires punishment for misdeeds. I look at humanity as being 'in the image of God', only flawed because of the fall. We go about doing things that God does: 1) creating. 2) reproducing (remember, the bible says man and woman were created in His image). 3) attempting to create life (although no one has been able to artificially do so apart from biogenesis). 4) judging. 5) creating laws. 6) I'm sure there's a lot more one could come up with. We are a reflection of the Creator, only we are fallen. Yet, what goes on down here shows what God does, only what He does in on a bigger scale. So, if we know that a crime deserves punishment, God (the Perfect Judge) also punishes. No one gets away with anything. They may think they do, but they don't.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2015 20:05:35 GMT -5
Phreeewwww! I was getting paranoid! Thank you for the encouragement. I don't expect people to agree with me, as I know many don't. But I have to admit it was stimulating conversation! Thank, Bob. But you know that not all logic is valid, I hope. But, some logic is valid. We all have to decide for ourselves what is valid, and what is not valid.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 6, 2015 20:44:27 GMT -5
Is dying and not facing a judge or prison, a bad thing? Yes. There's no justice in it. If one dies and doesn't face a judge, they get away with it. I don't see justice is such a scenario. We, with our human minds, know that a crime deserves a punishment. The Greatest Mind (God), surely requires punishment for misdeeds. I look at humanity as being 'in the image of God', only flawed because of the fall. We go about doing things that God does: 1) creating. 2) reproducing (remember, the bible says man and woman were created in His image). 3) attempting to create life (although no one has been able to artificially do so apart from biogenesis). 4) judging. 5) creating laws. 6) I'm sure there's a lot more one could come up with. We are a reflection of the Creator, only we are fallen. Yet, what goes on down here shows what God does, only what He does in on a bigger scale. So, if we know that a crime deserves punishment, God (the Perfect Judge) also punishes. No one gets away with anything. They may think they do, but they don't.
I know a lot of people will likely disagree with me, but I think there is more to life than justice. There are so many reasons why people break the laws we have put in place. Punishment for breaking these laws is not always 'justice'. I don't have a problem with people dying and not having an eternal judgement. People are far too focused on punishment and not enough on re-educating. I worked for Corrections Canada for quite a few years and also in Forensic Psychiatry doing Fitness to stand Trial psych assessments etc. Crimes committed are rarely black and white. Our Justice System doesn't work well when it is one size fits all. I recognize that it would be difficult to have it much different, but I think there are plenty of things we could do to make it more humane. I think it's a primitive mindset that demands punishment for all crimes and it takes so little into consideration about the person, their life circumstances, their mental capabilities etc. That's why I think that if there is an all knowing being that we come in front of at the end of life, there would be no judgement. Why? Because that being would know everyone is doing the best they can given their circumstances and many other factors. Hell is a human mindset I'm sure because we are so fixated on punishment instead of understanding and compassion. I don't have a problem with making it impossible for someone to do harm to others, but I think we could be more humane in the way we deal with those people.
|
|