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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 0:11:57 GMT -5
Yes. There's no justice in it. If one dies and doesn't face a judge, they get away with it. I don't see justice is such a scenario. We, with our human minds, know that a crime deserves a punishment. The Greatest Mind (God), surely requires punishment for misdeeds. I look at humanity as being 'in the image of God', only flawed because of the fall. We go about doing things that God does: 1) creating. 2) reproducing (remember, the bible says man and woman were created in His image). 3) attempting to create life (although no one has been able to artificially do so apart from biogenesis). 4) judging. 5) creating laws. 6) I'm sure there's a lot more one could come up with. We are a reflection of the Creator, only we are fallen. Yet, what goes on down here shows what God does, only what He does in on a bigger scale. So, if we know that a crime deserves punishment, God (the Perfect Judge) also punishes. No one gets away with anything. They may think they do, but they don't.
I know a lot of people will likely disagree with me, but I think there is more to life than justice. There are so many reasons why people break the laws we have put in place. Punishment for breaking these laws is not always 'justice'. I don't have a problem with people dying and not having an eternal judgement. People are far too focused on punishment and not enough on re-educating. I worked for Corrections Canada for quite a few years and also in Forensic Psychiatry doing Fitness to stand Trial psych assessments etc. Crimes committed are rarely black and white. Our Justice System doesn't work well when it is one size fits all. I recognize that it would be difficult to have it much different, but I think there are plenty of things we could do to make it more humane. I think it's a primitive mindset that demands punishment for all crimes and it takes so little into consideration about the person, their life circumstances, their mental capabilities etc. That's why I think that if there is an all knowing being that we come in front of at the end of life, there would be no judgement. Why? Because that being would know everyone is doing the best they can given their circumstances and many other factors. Hell is a human mindset I'm sure because we are so fixated on punishment instead of understanding and compassion. I don't have a problem with making it impossible for someone to do harm to others, but I think we could be more humane in the way we deal with those people. I don't think the bible actually says that all people will be punished the same. A man stealing food to feed his children is clearly different than a man stealing simply for the thrill of it. People who say"All sins are alike in the eyes of God" are mistaken IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 0:14:59 GMT -5
really depends. if you've done something worthy of judgment or prison and didn't go you might have to answer to God later on... I.E pay now or pay later So everyone needs to 'pay'? Is that why so many people hope there is a God? To make sure all those that got away with things in this life will get theirs when they die? You know that's not the reason that people believe in God, Snow. Your being silly.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 7, 2015 0:26:26 GMT -5
But you know that not all logic is valid, I hope. But, some logic is valid. We all have to decide for ourselves what is valid, and what is not valid.
Sorry, the valid part is not negotiable.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 7, 2015 0:28:28 GMT -5
So everyone needs to 'pay'? Is that why so many people hope there is a God? To make sure all those that got away with things in this life will get theirs when they die? You know that's not the reason that people believe in God, Snow. Your being silly. But that's the first think believers think non-believers have to worry about.
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Post by slowtosee on Jun 7, 2015 0:29:02 GMT -5
What was the punishment, to the prodigal son, that his loving father dispensed on him , upon his return? The older brother , who was doing everything just right in his own eyes, was NOT pleased to see his father lavish his love and understanding and acceptance of his "no good" loser brother. NO, not man's idea of justice, true. Any father who loves his child unconditionally, knows full well that sometimes it's just not really "fair" or "just", but I love my child so much, that I'll just forgive him again , give him another chance, and protect and defend the child, NOT necessarily the actions or decisions made................................................. I have a Dad like that, but understand some do not and therefore harder to "grab" that concept. Alvin
And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 7, 2015 0:42:03 GMT -5
Is dying and not facing a judge or prison, a bad thing? Yes. There's no justice in it. You mean the living don't get their proper revenge.
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Post by maryhig on Jun 7, 2015 0:47:19 GMT -5
What was the punishment, to the prodigal son, that his loving father dispensed on him , upon his return? The older brother , who was doing everything just right in his own eyes, was NOT pleased to see his father lavish his love and understanding and acceptance of his "no good" loser brother. NO, not man's idea of justice, true. Any father who loves his child unconditionally, knows full well that sometimes it's just not really "fair" or "just", but I love my child so much, that I'll just forgive him again , give him another chance, and protect and defend the child, NOT necessarily the actions or decisions made................................................. I have a Dad like that, but understand some do not and therefore harder to "grab" that concept. Alvin That's good, but it was because the prodigal son returned! Many here would think that he wasn't such a good father because he let him go through a hard time in the first place. But, if he hadn't of suffered for his wrong doing, he wouldn't have been humbled and wouldn't appreciate the father for the good father he was. So we must be careful, and not waste the inheritance God has given us. Keep Christ in our hearts and listen to the holy spirit. We will have hard times like everyone else, but they won't be as bad as if we disobey, because our own sins will take us away from God. And the way back is true repentance in the heart. But we may have to go through a bit of suffering first, saying that we have a very forgiving father! I thought about the brother also, if he had of spoken to his brother, his heart might have softened when he saw how much he'd suffered. But instead he stayed outside complaining. We can do this also, we can have a heart that judges instead of listening to each other. Maybe if we heard what they have been through, our hearts might soften and we would show compassion for each other instead of hardness! But the father loved both sons, and God loves all of us!
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 7, 2015 0:54:07 GMT -5
Quote - 'You miss the point, Wally. No part of that scenario, - that whole framework of a postulated events in the bible never needed to happen." Dmmichgood says this. The bible says otherwise. "Opening them up and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ." Act 17:3
Recall the perfect male lamb, brought into the homes of God's people, and bonding there for three days before being slain and its blood daubed on the lintel. That was a symbol of the slain Christ, the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world." NO, bert, that isn't what I meant!
I meant the whole big, scenario, the whole idea from the beginning of god's supposed creation of humankind putting the forbidden fruit tree smack dab in the middle of the garden & telling him not to eat any of the fruit of the tree.
Then when they did it caused them to "sin" then having to send "his" son down to earth & be killed to "redeem" mankind!
I meant that whole rigmarole, an elaborate or complicated, confused, incoherent, foolish, meaningless idea! None of this account should not have needed to happen! Not if your god is the kind of entity that you claim. Why would any entity, such as the god to which you refer, -an entity which by Christianity claims is omnipotent ( all powerful) omnipresent, ( always present ) omniscient, ( all knowing), -why would such an entity, who would be so superior to the humans He created, -even feel any need to place a 'curse' on humanity?
What would be His purpose? Why would He make his own creation jump over hurdles, through hoops?
It just doesn't seem reasonable nor even morally right .
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 7, 2015 1:10:26 GMT -5
So everyone needs to 'pay'? Is that why so many people hope there is a God? To make sure all those that got away with things in this life will get theirs when they die? You know that's not the reason that people believe in God, Snow. Your being silly. Snow is NOT being silly.
That definitely is one of the reasons people want a god.
They see people getting by with horrendous actions at times, such Hitler, and they want to see some kind of justice done.
How many times have you heard the term, "What goes around comes around."
The meaning that for the person that commits an offense against someone, even if not held accountable now, will have such an equal offense done to them some day.
Or the term, "They may not have to pay for it now but wait until they face GOD."
It is actually one of the major reasons people want to believe in a god.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 7, 2015 1:15:58 GMT -5
I notice that this is one of the usual answers that Christians tend to make, "God can do as He likes..."
I CAN'T accept that version of any god who does such terrible killings yet expects His creation to not do the same. And that's your right. Oh? Had I claimed otherwise?
It was merely one of my observations. Of course I'm not alone in that observation. Many others do also.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 7, 2015 2:33:33 GMT -5
The first big question for me is why this whole scenario, -this framework of a postulated sequence or development of events that you have just expressed should even need to happen?
Why would any entity, such as the god to which you refer, -an entity which by Christianity claims is omnipotent ( all powerful) omnipresent, ( always present ) omniscient, ( all knowing), -why would such an entity, who would be so superior to the humans He created, -even feel any need to place a 'curse' on humanity?
What would be His purpose? Why would He make his own creation jump over hurdles, through hoops?
It just doesn't seem reasonable nor even morally right .
I don't know. I can only tell you my thoughts; but my thoughts may not be right. I've always assumed that He has done this for one main reason: to create a people who choose Him on their own free will. People who have been through all of the pain and suffering this creation brings them, and then to still say "I'm Yours." I'm wondering what would we think of someone, -let's say a father, a mother ; -someone we knew in real life that would treat their child like this?
sadistic? manipulating? egotistical? jealous?
pulling our strings , puppeteer?
For some entity that is so great & beyond our feeble selves who wants us worship him as a GOD, -it just seems not only unnecessary but acting in a very self centered manner on his part.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 2:48:11 GMT -5
We all hear you Dmmichgood. One has to only look at the cursing and blessing of the Jews to see what God can do. There are three things we can do about it.
1 - presume no God would curse us, therefore there is no God. 2 - just read all the nice parts of the bible, and hope you aren't cursed. 3 - fear God and allow that fear to do a work in your life.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 4:14:34 GMT -5
Is dying and not facing a judge or prison, a bad thing? Yes. There's no justice in it. If one dies and doesn't face a judge, they get away with it. I don't see justice is such a scenario. We, with our human minds, know that a crime deserves a punishment. The Greatest Mind (God), surely requires punishment for misdeeds. I look at humanity as being 'in the image of God', only flawed because of the fall. We go about doing things that God does: 1) creating. 2) reproducing (remember, the bible says man and woman were created in His image). 3) attempting to create life (although no one has been able to artificially do so apart from biogenesis). 4) judging. 5) creating laws. 6) I'm sure there's a lot more one could come up with. We are a reflection of the Creator, only we are fallen. Yet, what goes on down here shows what God does, only what He does in on a bigger scale. So, if we know that a crime deserves punishment, God (the Perfect Judge) also punishes. No one gets away with anything. They may think they do, but they don't.
I'm not going to question you on this. However I think it important to be aware of some obvious weaknesses in what is presented here. First, God as the 'Greatest Mind' is an assumption rather than something supported by evidence. Also God as the 'Perfect Judge' is an assumption rather than something supported by evidence. There is nothing to suggest that either of these are true statements about God in reality. They are merely attributes ascribed to the biblical God. Secondly, the story of the fall in the bible is most likely (I'm being generous here) a mythical story rather than a factual one and therefore is hardly a sound basis for determining a view of humanity. Finally, your selected list of things used to support the view that man is created in the image of God indicates a strong degree of bias. In addition to the five (and some of those are questionable at best) things you have listed, man also eats, drinks, dies, sleeps, fights, lies, deceives, cheats, works, walks, runs, sits, jumps, swims, sings, begs, borrows, steals, reads, writes, composes, translates, plays, parties, holidays, travels, worships, studies, washes, cleans, irons, mends, makes, bakes, fornicates and procreates. God (supposedly) does none of those things and therefore there is nothing here to support claims that man had been created in God's image. Man also has two ears. two eyes, a nose, two arms, two legs, feet, toes, thumbs, a head, an appendix and an epiglottis. God (supposedly) has none of those and therefore there is nothing here either to support claims that man had been created in God's image. Man also has great cultural creativity and appreciation in relation to music, art, poetry, prose, literature, dance, film, theatre and comedy. God (supposedly) has no cultural appreciation or cultural creative ability whatsoever and therefore there is nothing here either to support claims that man has been created in God's image. It is worth noting that dogs, like God, have no cultural appreciation or creativity whatsoever either but no one ever suggests that dogs have been created in the image of God Matt10
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Post by Mary on Jun 7, 2015 4:25:38 GMT -5
Who said God has no creative ability or appreciation for these things? I believe he gave these gifts to humans but man has taken some and used in a bad way. Music for example can be good or bad. Art the same. From creative art to pornography etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 5:28:19 GMT -5
Who said God has no creative ability or appreciation for these things? I believe he gave these gifts to humans but man has taken some and used in a bad way. Music for example can be good or bad. Art the same. From creative art to pornography etc. Are you in fact suggesting that God has an appreciation of pornography? Or that he has some creative ability in relation to pornography?. I would suggest that he hasn't but I am happy for you to demonstrate otherwise. Matt10
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 5:46:33 GMT -5
I said man has taken it and used it in a bad way. So we're agreed then that he has no cultural appreciation or creative ability in terms of pornography. That is a relief as I was about to enquire whether his appreciation was of male pornography or female pornography. Perhaps you can clarify which cultural activities or creative arts you believe he has an appreciation of given that you seem to be disputing the claim that he has no cultural appreciation. Matt10
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 5:56:09 GMT -5
I never disputed the claim. God created everything. Well I'm glad we cleared that up. Matt10
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Post by rational on Jun 7, 2015 6:38:30 GMT -5
You are the one demanding evidence. If you don't like my logic for the existence of a God , that's your problem. I think the issue is that the logical reasons you keep talking about have not been seen.
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Post by rational on Jun 7, 2015 6:49:49 GMT -5
By the same token, if there is no Easter bunny then there is not distributor of jelly beans. Each individual would have to select their beans and decide on the flavor they want by themselves. What right would any individual have to decide that a good assortment would be 10 cherry and only one lime when the EB would say 4 limes and 7 cherry? It would come down to an individual picking their own flavors. How could anyone be justified in taking jelly beans from one person and redistributing them to meet some pre-ordered distrubution? Call me stupid, but I don't think your analogy and your post makes any sense.Consider it a metaphor. You claim the need for a devine law giver and I am making the case for a 'divine' jelly bean giver. Do we really need either? If you can accept getting your divine law from an entity that has clearly been shown to be immoral I guess that is your decision. So far you have not put forth any reason why. I guess that eliminates any discussion regarding that aspect of human behavior.You say logically but I don't see a single premise that promotes or backs up your conclusion. How did you arrive at this 'logical' conclusion?
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Post by rational on Jun 7, 2015 7:00:33 GMT -5
Is dying and not facing a judge or prison, a bad thing? Yes. There's no justice in it. If one dies and doesn't face a judge, they get away with it. I don't see justice is such a scenario. We, with our human minds, know that a crime deserves a punishment. Who is this 'we'? I certainly do not believe this any more than I believe a child need to be punished for doing something that the child's parents consider wrong. Punishment has been shown over and over to be a poor way of teaching people anything - including the difference between right and wrong.Perhaps believing this is where the trouble starts.Yes, you left out the killing of other humans. The killing and burning of animals.So is it save to assume that the giver of the divine law also is the one who punishes those who break that law?
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Post by rational on Jun 7, 2015 7:05:05 GMT -5
What was the punishment, to the prodigal son, that his loving father dispensed on him , upon his return? The older brother , who was doing everything just right in his own eyes, was NOT pleased to see his father lavish his love and understanding and acceptance of his "no good" loser brother. NO, not man's idea of justice, true. Any father who loves his child unconditionally, knows full well that sometimes it's just not really "fair" or "just", but I love my child so much, that I'll just forgive him again , give him another chance, and protect and defend the child, NOT necessarily the actions or decisions made................................................. I have a Dad like that, but understand some do not and therefore harder to "grab" that concept. Alvin And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. Maybe the father had learned about human behavior and knew what works to get the best out of people.
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Post by slowtosee on Jun 7, 2015 7:09:01 GMT -5
Maybe, and somehow the older son didn't respond so well, even after his father pleaded the younger sons "case". Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 7:18:24 GMT -5
Of course, to the apostates of that nobleman's church the charge would be: He misjudges His son slept with ladys His other son is a cold creep His house is divided Nothing is going to change any of this.
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Post by slowtosee on Jun 7, 2015 7:27:30 GMT -5
Not sure what you mean, Bert.? Alvin
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Post by snow on Jun 7, 2015 10:29:30 GMT -5
So everyone needs to 'pay'? Is that why so many people hope there is a God? To make sure all those that got away with things in this life will get theirs when they die? You know that's not the reason that people believe in God, Snow. Your being silly. Yes many people believe in God for other reasons. But I have had quite a few people tell me there needs to be a hell. So is this belief a subconscious aspect of belief in an afterlife where justice is served if they don't get punishment in their lifetime? It definitely is a part of it in the discussions I've had with people regarding hell.
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Post by Greg on Jun 7, 2015 10:44:41 GMT -5
You know that's not the reason that people believe in God, Snow. Your being silly. Yes many people believe in God for other reasons. But I have had quite a few people tell me there needs to be a hell. So is this belief a subconscious aspect of belief in an afterlife where justice is served if they don't get punishment in their lifetime? It definitely is a part of it in the discussions I've had with people regarding hell. Reminds me of something I heard the other day: "Fair is where you go to eat cotton candy."
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 11:08:28 GMT -5
You are the one demanding evidence. If you don't like my logic for the existence of a God , that's your problem. I think the issue is that the logical reasons you keep talking about have not been seen. Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. Matt10
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 11:41:46 GMT -5
You know that's not the reason that people believe in God, Snow. Your being silly. Yes many people believe in God for other reasons. But I have had quite a few people tell me there needs to be a hell. So is this belief a subconscious aspect of belief in an afterlife where justice is served if they don't get punishment in their lifetime? It definitely is a part of it in the discussions I've had with people regarding hell. I don't know if I'd personally call it a subconscious aspect of belief in an afterlife where justice is served. But, I do think that justice for misdeeds makes sense, in the here and in the here-after.
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