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Post by rational on Jun 8, 2015 7:49:44 GMT -5
This "God of the gaps" is an interesting theme. The saints of the bible didn't serve God because they thought He brought the rain. Many did - they didn't. Certainly they believe God could INTERVENE in events.
Science says "The rain comes from condensation of water vapor." Fine, but where does the energy come from to vaporize water? "Energy comes from the sun" Fine, but where does the sun's energy come from? "Sun's energy comes from the fusion of hydrogen to helium." Fine, but where does the inherent energy of hydrogen come from? 'From combined quark energy bound to it." Fine but where do quarks come from? "From the quark-gluon plasma of the Big Bang" Find but where does this plasma come from? "from space time after the big bang" Fine, where does the Big Bang come from" "Maybe from M-theory four dimensional fabric, maybe from an endless cycling of space time..."
I am tempted to call this the "Science of the Finite Regress" as opposed to the God of the Gaps. Science just PUSHES BACK THE CAUSES OF THINGS. But the ultimate cause, the big causes (ie multiverses) are simply beyond the reach of science.
But Dmmichgood, "God of the Gaps" is fashionable, and the alliteration is nice. "Science of the Finite Regress" isn't catchy, can't be understood, doesn't fit in with fashionable thinking and was invented by someone with the alias called Bert on a Proboard forum. I don't think 'science' is trying to solve the problem by pushing it back. It is a case of following the data. Like finding the source of a river. You need to keep following it even though it has slowed to a trickle. In the case of the origin of the universe - maybe the end is out of sight/reach. Maybe the solution is beyond comprehension. But to name it god, as in the common term, the god of the bible, does as much good as pointing to a tributary of a river and declaring "That is the source" because it was too small to navigate. It solves nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2015 8:07:04 GMT -5
We come back to this all the time. Science has the answers to the here and now (and I am enthusiastic about science - I attend conferences, read everything, have been a member of various science groups etc..)
But when science says "God doesn't make it rain, there is a physical process at work" I feel they are straying into the area of metaphysics and philosophy. Yes and no - God sets the universe in motion, says that in the bible. You cannot say "God doesn't bring the rain" because you simply don't know.
The "fine tuning" of the universe, (again causing angst at CERN) is challenged by the theory of the "multiverse" which cannot be tested. So here we have the "creation myth vs the untestable hypothesis."
Anyhows - I am off to another seminar on variables of the Big Bang in a few weeks. I will hear all this bravado all over again.
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Post by rational on Jun 8, 2015 8:19:37 GMT -5
We come back to this all the time. Science has the answers to the here and now (and I am enthusiastic about science - I attend conferences, read everything, have been a member of various science groups etc..)
But when science says "God doesn't make it rain, there is a physical process at work" I feel they are straying into the area of metaphysics and philosophy. Yes and no - God sets the universe in motion, says that in the bible. You cannot say "God doesn't bring the rain" because you simply don't know.
The "fine tuning" of the universe, (again causing angst at CERN) is challenged by the theory of the "multiverse" which cannot be tested. So here we have the "creation myth vs the untestable hypothesis."
Anyhows - I am off to another seminar on variables of the Big Bang in a few weeks. I will hear all this bravado all over again. :) And hopefully we will too! Now, bert, no personal editing!
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Post by snow on Jun 8, 2015 13:05:34 GMT -5
Okay, that's where we disagree I guess. I don't think the afterlife needs a hell so people who got away with things finally get what they 'deserve'. Thank you for your answers though. Hi snow, so where do you think real wicked heart should go? People who purposely murder for pleasure. Who would murder children knowing their wrong. Who enslave and torture people and enjoy it. On this earth, would you put a child serial child killer in a house with children? I believe that God knows what he's doing, and that everything will be where it belongs. I recognize that brains have issues and some people do things the rest of us think are horrific,( and they are), because they don't think the same as most people. Now is that their fault or the fault of a faulty brain? I would imagine that if there is an afterlife, we no longer use a faulty brain and we would use whatever it is that is consciousness after death. Don't you think that this consciousness would then be fault free and recognize just how off the mark their actions were while alive? If God is all knowing he would understand all of this and I think anyone else that had died, would also recognize the reasons that person acted as they did in life. I would imagine the person would not be blamed for having a faulty physical brain after they died and they would no longer be that person either, so why wouldn't it be fine for them to share a good afterlife with everyone else? Understanding and love would heal things wouldn't it? I truly don't know if there is such a thing as an afterlife and lean towards there isn't. But if there is the way Christians have figured it to be makes little to no sense for me. An all powerful, all loving, all merciful and all knowing God definitely doesn't have any need for a hell for his creation. There are thousands of alternatives to punishment of his creation for eternity, especially if it was through no fault of their own.
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Post by rational on Jun 8, 2015 13:12:11 GMT -5
Hi snow, so where do you think real wicked heart should go? People who purposely murder for pleasure. Who would murder children knowing their wrong. Who enslave and torture people and enjoy it. On this earth, would you put a child serial child killer in a house with children? I believe that God knows what he's doing, and that everything will be where it belongs. I recognize that brains have issues and some people do things the rest of us think are horrific,( and they are), because they don't think the same as most people. Now is that their fault or the fault of a faulty brain? I would imagine that if there is an afterlife, we no longer use a faulty brain and we would use whatever it is that is consciousness after death. Don't you think that this consciousness would then be fault free and recognize just how off the mark their actions were while alive? If God is all knowing he would understand all of this and I think anyone else that had died, would also recognize the reasons that person acted as they did in life. I would imagine the person would not be blamed for having a faulty physical brain after they died and they would no longer be that person either, so why wouldn't it be fine for them to share a good afterlife with everyone else? Understanding and love would heal things wouldn't it? I truly don't know if there is such a thing as an afterlife and lean towards there isn't. But if there is the way Christians have figured it to be makes little to no sense for me. An all powerful, all loving, all merciful and all knowing God definitely doesn't have any need for a hell for his creation. There are thousands of alternatives to punishment of his creation for eternity, especially if it was through no fault of their own. It almost seems like a design flaw. I wonder if there was a recall and the owner did not respond and get it corrected.
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Post by snow on Jun 8, 2015 13:13:09 GMT -5
This "God of the gaps" is an interesting theme. The saints of the bible didn't serve God because they thought He brought the rain. Many did - they didn't. Certainly they believe God could INTERVENE in events.
Science says "The rain comes from condensation of water vapor." Fine, but where does the energy come from to vaporize water? "Energy comes from the sun" Fine, but where does the sun's energy come from? "Sun's energy comes from the fusion of hydrogen to helium." Fine, but where does the inherent energy of hydrogen come from? 'From combined quark energy bound to it." Fine but where do quarks come from? "From the quark-gluon plasma of the Big Bang" Find but where does this plasma come from? "from space time after the big bang" Fine, where does the Big Bang come from" "Maybe from M-theory four dimensional fabric, maybe from an endless cycling of space time..."
I am tempted to call this the "Science of the Finite Regress" as opposed to the God of the Gaps. Science just PUSHES BACK THE CAUSES OF THINGS. But the ultimate cause, the big causes (ie multiverses) are simply beyond the reach of science.
But Dmmichgood, "God of the Gaps" is fashionable, and the alliteration is nice. "Science of the Finite Regress" isn't catchy, can't be understood, doesn't fit in with fashionable thinking and was invented by someone with the alias called Bert on a Proboard forum. For me, I don't understand why there needs to be a God just because we don't know everything there is to know about Creation? Especially a personal God that judges, has rules and punishments etc. That really makes no sense to me and is entirely not a necessary alternative to "I don't know what was before the big bang". People tell me nothing can come from nothing, which isn't altogether true. However, that's a different topic. If God exists, where did God come from if nothing cannot come from nothing as has been argued? Who created God is similar to what you describe as the 'science of the finite regress'. Which is truly an interesting title for 'we don't know'.
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Post by snow on Jun 8, 2015 13:18:43 GMT -5
We come back to this all the time. Science has the answers to the here and now (and I am enthusiastic about science - I attend conferences, read everything, have been a member of various science groups etc..)
But when science says "God doesn't make it rain, there is a physical process at work" I feel they are straying into the area of metaphysics and philosophy. Yes and no - God sets the universe in motion, says that in the bible. You cannot say "God doesn't bring the rain" because you simply don't know.
The "fine tuning" of the universe, (again causing angst at CERN) is challenged by the theory of the "multiverse" which cannot be tested. So here we have the "creation myth vs the untestable hypothesis."
Anyhows - I am off to another seminar on variables of the Big Bang in a few weeks. I will hear all this bravado all over again.
The difference between you and me I guess is that I don't see anything as fine tuned. We have what we have because that's how it is. If it was even a tiny bit different, we would see something else and likely say the same thing, 'look at how finely tuned our universe is'. We see what is and think it's amazing that such a thing could exist without there being a God. But if we were sentient beings in a different world, because of different origins, we'd likely still be saying the same thing because that's whatwould be normal for us. Things were not created so we could exist in them like we do, but rather we are simply the end product of what is.
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Post by snow on Jun 8, 2015 13:25:18 GMT -5
I recognize that brains have issues and some people do things the rest of us think are horrific,( and they are), because they don't think the same as most people. Now is that their fault or the fault of a faulty brain? I would imagine that if there is an afterlife, we no longer use a faulty brain and we would use whatever it is that is consciousness after death. Don't you think that this consciousness would then be fault free and recognize just how off the mark their actions were while alive? If God is all knowing he would understand all of this and I think anyone else that had died, would also recognize the reasons that person acted as they did in life. I would imagine the person would not be blamed for having a faulty physical brain after they died and they would no longer be that person either, so why wouldn't it be fine for them to share a good afterlife with everyone else? Understanding and love would heal things wouldn't it? I truly don't know if there is such a thing as an afterlife and lean towards there isn't. But if there is the way Christians have figured it to be makes little to no sense for me. An all powerful, all loving, all merciful and all knowing God definitely doesn't have any need for a hell for his creation. There are thousands of alternatives to punishment of his creation for eternity, especially if it was through no fault of their own. It almost seems like a design flaw. I wonder if there was a recall and the owner did not respond and get it corrected. Ha! Well as far as I can see our brains are exactly what you would expect to see in a creature that has evolved. I was just trying to link that 'flawed brain' to some kind of understanding of a being that knows this and is supposed to be loving. Now if God did create us all, flawed brains and all, and he knows this and still punishes for it, well then in my estimation, God is not all merciful or all loving. He is all knowing and not a nice guy if he punishes his creation for how they act with flawed brains.
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Post by snow on Jun 8, 2015 13:28:18 GMT -5
I recognize that brains have issues and some people do things the rest of us think are horrific,( and they are), because they don't think the same as most people. Now is that their fault or the fault of a faulty brain? I would imagine that if there is an afterlife, we no longer use a faulty brain and we would use whatever it is that is consciousness after death. Don't you think that this consciousness would then be fault free and recognize just how off the mark their actions were while alive? If God is all knowing he would understand all of this and I think anyone else that had died, would also recognize the reasons that person acted as they did in life. I would imagine the person would not be blamed for having a faulty physical brain after they died and they would no longer be that person either, so why wouldn't it be fine for them to share a good afterlife with everyone else? Understanding and love would heal things wouldn't it? I truly don't know if there is such a thing as an afterlife and lean towards there isn't. But if there is the way Christians have figured it to be makes little to no sense for me. An all powerful, all loving, all merciful and all knowing God definitely doesn't have any need for a hell for his creation. There are thousands of alternatives to punishment of his creation for eternity, especially if it was through no fault of their own. It almost seems like a design flaw. I wonder if there was a recall and the owner did not respond and get it corrected. I didn't get the recall notice and I think I should have. I have AAADD and I want a newer improved brain replacement please!! www.tickld.com/x/lady-is-told-she-has-age-activated-attention-deficit-disorder
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Post by maryhig on Jun 8, 2015 13:38:41 GMT -5
Hi snow, so where do you think real wicked heart should go? People who purposely murder for pleasure. Who would murder children knowing their wrong. Who enslave and torture people and enjoy it. On this earth, would you put a child serial child killer in a house with children? I believe that God knows what he's doing, and that everything will be where it belongs. I recognize that brains have issues and some people do things the rest of us think are horrific,( and they are), because they don't think the same as most people. Now is that their fault or the fault of a faulty brain? I would imagine that if there is an afterlife, we no longer use a faulty brain and we would use whatever it is that is consciousness after death. Don't you think that this consciousness would then be fault free and recognize just how off the mark their actions were while alive? If God is all knowing he would understand all of this and I think anyone else that had died, would also recognize the reasons that person acted as they did in life. I would imagine the person would not be blamed for having a faulty physical brain after they died and they would no longer be that person either, so why wouldn't it be fine for them to share a good afterlife with everyone else? Understanding and love would heal things wouldn't it? I truly don't know if there is such a thing as an afterlife and lean towards there isn't. But if there is the way Christians have figured it to be makes little to no sense for me. An all powerful, all loving, all merciful and all knowing God definitely doesn't have any need for a hell for his creation. There are thousands of alternatives to punishment of his creation for eternity, especially if it was through no fault of their own. No you can't be blamed for having a faulty brain, but you can be blamed for listening to a wicked spirit. When I get a bad thought its nothing to do with my brain, it's a wrong spirit goading me, and how do I know this? Because when I've resisted it a few times because my conscience has been pricked, it leaves me. My nature had changed a lot, because God is working in my heart! If it was my brain, I would think like this all the time! Also, some people who do wicked things are highly intelligent, and if they tried to use the excuse of a faulty brain that would be an insult to victims! As I said God will have a place for everyone!
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Post by maryhig on Jun 8, 2015 13:47:30 GMT -5
It almost seems like a design flaw. I wonder if there was a recall and the owner did not respond and get it corrected. Ha! Well as far as I can see our brains are exactly what you would expect to see in a creature that has evolved. I was just trying to link that 'flawed brain' to some kind of understanding of a being that knows this and is supposed to be loving. Now if God did create us all, flawed brains and all, and he knows this and still punishes for it, well then in my estimation, God is not all merciful or all loving. He is all knowing and not a nice guy if he punishes his creation for how they act with flawed brains. Snow I have to ask you this, and this is something I probably wouldn't ask normally but I don't understand your way of thinking, People who believe in God (as far as I know), believe that what you do in this life, determines what happens to you in the next. So I believe that what we choose to do goes with us and we're judged on our actions, and we will have had plenty of chances to fight it. So what I want to ask is this, and I'm sorry for asking but would you let a serial child killer, stay in your home and play with your children?
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Post by snow on Jun 8, 2015 13:47:32 GMT -5
I recognize that brains have issues and some people do things the rest of us think are horrific,( and they are), because they don't think the same as most people. Now is that their fault or the fault of a faulty brain? I would imagine that if there is an afterlife, we no longer use a faulty brain and we would use whatever it is that is consciousness after death. Don't you think that this consciousness would then be fault free and recognize just how off the mark their actions were while alive? If God is all knowing he would understand all of this and I think anyone else that had died, would also recognize the reasons that person acted as they did in life. I would imagine the person would not be blamed for having a faulty physical brain after they died and they would no longer be that person either, so why wouldn't it be fine for them to share a good afterlife with everyone else? Understanding and love would heal things wouldn't it? I truly don't know if there is such a thing as an afterlife and lean towards there isn't. But if there is the way Christians have figured it to be makes little to no sense for me. An all powerful, all loving, all merciful and all knowing God definitely doesn't have any need for a hell for his creation. There are thousands of alternatives to punishment of his creation for eternity, especially if it was through no fault of their own. No you can't be blamed for having a faulty brain, but you can be blamed for listening to a wicked spirit. When I get a bad thought its nothing to do with my brain, it's a wrong spirit goading me, and how do I know this? Because when I've resisted it a few times because my conscience has been pricked, it leaves me. My nature had changed a lot, because God is working in my heart! If it was my brain, I would think like this all the time! Also, some people who do wicked things are highly intelligent, and if they tried to use the excuse of a faulty brain that would be an insult to victims! As I said God will have a place for everyone! Maryhig, the difference between you and someone with a flawed brain is that you have a conscience that you can follow. Some people do not feel any remorse or empathy. It's not there for them because of their brain function. They don't get the benefit you get from a 'pricked conscience'. They don't have one through no fault of their own. Everything we do is brain related, dependent upon our brain functioning in a proper way. The people that experience no empathy can be highly intelligent and through social learning learn what society accepts and does not accept. They can act how it is expected through this learning, but if they feel that they can do something and get away with it, they will likely do it if there is a benefit to take that risk. It won't be a conscience trigger in the sense that you speak of. We have learned a lot about how the brain works, how it affects moods, behavior etc. We still have a lot left to learn for sure. Another aspect of this is how hormones effect us. They can change a personality also. These are all physical flaws. That is why it makes no sense to me at all that if there is a God and an afterlife, and this God is aware of the physical flaws that determine our actions and thinking, why that same God would punish anyone for eternity for something that was beyond their control. You are lucky, you can control your impulses, but not all people can.
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Post by snow on Jun 8, 2015 13:51:00 GMT -5
Ha! Well as far as I can see our brains are exactly what you would expect to see in a creature that has evolved. I was just trying to link that 'flawed brain' to some kind of understanding of a being that knows this and is supposed to be loving. Now if God did create us all, flawed brains and all, and he knows this and still punishes for it, well then in my estimation, God is not all merciful or all loving. He is all knowing and not a nice guy if he punishes his creation for how they act with flawed brains. Snow I have to ask you this, and this is something I probably wouldn't ask normally but I don't understand your way of thinking, People who believe in God (as far as I know), believe that what you do in this life, determines what happens to you in the next. So I believe that what we choose to do goes with us and we're judged on our actions, and we will have had plenty of chances to fight it. So what I want to ask is this, and I'm sorry for asking but would you let a serial child killer, stay in your home and play with your children? Would I let a serial child killer stay in my physical home with my children? Of course not. I would also lock that person away from all children. This is earth where flawed brains reign supreme. However, if that same person had died and no longer had their flawed physical brain and therefore a flawed mindset, then I would think that person would no longer be a danger to anyone. I don't see how it is justice to punish a person for eternity because of something that they did while being governed by a flawed physical organ. Do you?
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Post by maryhig on Jun 8, 2015 13:56:05 GMT -5
No you can't be blamed for having a faulty brain, but you can be blamed for listening to a wicked spirit. When I get a bad thought its nothing to do with my brain, it's a wrong spirit goading me, and how do I know this? Because when I've resisted it a few times because my conscience has been pricked, it leaves me. My nature had changed a lot, because God is working in my heart! If it was my brain, I would think like this all the time! Also, some people who do wicked things are highly intelligent, and if they tried to use the excuse of a faulty brain that would be an insult to victims! As I said God will have a place for everyone! Maryhig, the difference between you and someone with a flawed brain is that you have a conscience that you can follow. Some people do not feel any remorse or empathy. It's not there for them because of their brain function. They don't get the benefit you get from a 'pricked conscience'. They don't have one through no fault of their own. Everything we do is brain related, dependent upon our brain functioning in a proper way. The people that experience no empathy can be highly intelligent and through social learning learn what society accepts and does not accept. They can act how it is expected through this learning, but if they feel that they can do something and get away with it, they will likely do it if there is a benefit to take that risk. It won't be a conscience trigger in the sense that you speak of. We have learned a lot about how the brain works, how it affects moods, behavior etc. We still have a lot left to learn for sure. Another aspect of this is how hormones effect us. They can change a personality also. These are all physical flaws. That is why it makes no sense to me at all that if there is a God and an afterlife, and this God is aware of the physical flaws that determine our actions and thinking, why that same God would punish anyone for eternity for something that was beyond their control. You are lucky, you can control your impulses, but not all people can. So your telling me that every single person that does wicked things has a faulty brain? Sorry but I don't believe that for a minute? You hear of many people that have a conscience when they do seriously wrong things, even handing themselves in to the police, and some truly regretting what they've done so it can't always be the brain! Also, where do you think our conscience comes from? It often works against our own thoughts, as you said "a pricked conscience" to be pricked we must have had a different thought in the first place, so the conscience must be working against our nature!
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Post by maryhig on Jun 8, 2015 14:10:05 GMT -5
Snow I have to ask you this, and this is something I probably wouldn't ask normally but I don't understand your way of thinking, People who believe in God (as far as I know), believe that what you do in this life, determines what happens to you in the next. So I believe that what we choose to do goes with us and we're judged on our actions, and we will have had plenty of chances to fight it. So what I want to ask is this, and I'm sorry for asking but would you let a serial child killer, stay in your home and play with your children? Would I let a serial child killer stay in my physical home with my children? Of course not. I would also lock that person away from all children. This is earth where flawed brains reign supreme. However, if that same person had died and no longer had their flawed physical brain and therefore a flawed mindset, then I would think that person would no longer be a danger to anyone. I don't see how it is justice to punish a person for eternity because of something that they did while being governed by a flawed physical organ. Do you? I don't believe that it had anything to do with a faulty brain in many cases I'm afraid. The people are wicked, Hitler didn't have a faulty brain. He was evil. And because he listened to a wrong spirit he got worse and worse until he turned into he was a tyrant! He was listening to wickedness in his heart, and if he had of listened to his pricked conscience early on then maybe. he wouldn't have done the atrocities he did! Also, if you wouldn't let a child killer in your home, why would God let wicked spirits mix with his children in heaven which is his home. These people have a choice, do or don't do. They choose to do it, and they will receive what God thinks they deserve. In this life or the next!
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 8, 2015 14:17:30 GMT -5
This would seem to imply an innate belief in god. There is neither 1 - proof of God 2 - disproof of God If there is no proof why would there need to be disproof? Disproof is sought only after a claim of proof has been offered. Precisely. Requiring disproof of someone is just plain silly. Once I applied for a teaching position, and one of the catches was that I would receive a #1500 bonus if I had not had a teaching contract in the previous two years. I didn't have such contracts. I did have proof that I had full-time jobs in other government agencies, but guess what --- that wasn't proof that I didn't have teaching contracts. Finally I asked them for the names and addresses of all the school districts in the USA so I could compile proof certain that I had no teaching contracts in the two previous years. Of course, they already knew that I would contact a lawyer, because the school district I'd worked for 5 years earlier refused to pull up records that were 5 years old. I got proof that the state had collected deductions for my teacher's paycheck for the 15 years I worked there, but that still didn't prove I had a contract. If you're going to accuse someone of something, you have the burden of proof -- otherwise, mind your own business.
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Post by rational on Jun 8, 2015 15:25:41 GMT -5
The difference between you and me I guess is that I don't see anything as fine tuned. We have what we have because that's how it is. If it was even a tiny bit different, we would see something else and likely say the same thing, 'look at how finely tuned our universe is'. We see what is and think it's amazing that such a thing could exist without there being a God. But if we were sentient beings in a different world, because of different origins, we'd likely still be saying the same thing because that's whatwould be normal for us. Things were not created so we could exist in them like we do, but rather we are simply the end product of what is. After a few million years I am sure there were dinosaurs that thought they were the 'end product'. It didn't work out well for them and I doubt we are the 'end product' either! Things may be fine-tuned for humans now but one errant good sized asteroid and it would look more like co ckroaches were the planned 'end product'!
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Post by rational on Jun 8, 2015 15:37:15 GMT -5
No you can't be blamed for having a faulty brain, but you can be blamed for listening to a wicked spirit. When I get a bad thought its nothing to do with my brain, it's a wrong spirit goading me, and how do I know this? Because when I've resisted it a few times because my conscience has been pricked, it leaves me. My nature had changed a lot, because God is working in my heart! If it was my brain, I would think like this all the time! If it is not your brain doing the thinking and deciding what is? Why does all of that thinking activity stop as soon as certain drugs are administered? Why does a brain tumor cause a change in thought processes? You can blame wicked spirits and give credit where you wish but without a functioning brain all is quiet. You, and only you, are responsible for your behavior. You can try to blame the wicked spirit when you harm another but you are still responsible. Behavior and intelligence are independent features of your brain. Unfortunately, there are people who derive pleasure from the discomfort of others. In fact, it is somewhat of a human trait. We have all laughed at the misfortune of others. But at some point society frowns on causing that discomfort. Actually, so does nature. And no one get threatened with punishment.
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Post by rational on Jun 8, 2015 15:45:46 GMT -5
I don't plan on giving up the fight to cockroaches. There will be an all out war on that one. God will come and save us from the cockroaches before it comes to that, I am sure. Oh, you will not need to fight the cockroaches - the 50+ years of global winter will certainly give them the upper hand. They do not need to fight. They will just keep being!
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Post by maryhig on Jun 8, 2015 15:52:36 GMT -5
No you can't be blamed for having a faulty brain, but you can be blamed for listening to a wicked spirit. When I get a bad thought its nothing to do with my brain, it's a wrong spirit goading me, and how do I know this? Because when I've resisted it a few times because my conscience has been pricked, it leaves me. My nature had changed a lot, because God is working in my heart! If it was my brain, I would think like this all the time! If it is not your brain doing the thinking and deciding what is? Why does all of that thinking activity stop as soon as certain drugs are administered? Why does a brain tumor cause a change in thought processes? You can blame wicked spirits and give credit where you wish but without a functioning brain all is quiet. You, and only you, are responsible for your behavior. You can try to blame the wicked spirit when you harm another but you are still responsible. Behavior and intelligence are independent features of your brain. Unfortunately, there are people who derive pleasure from the discomfort of others. In fact, it is somewhat of a human trait. We have all laughed at the misfortune of others. But at some point society frowns on causing that discomfort. Actually, so does nature. And no one get threatened with punishment. Absolutely, you and only you are responsible for your actions and you can't blame anyone else human or spirit, we are responsible for our own actions because God gives us free will. We have a choice, only a very few have a brain disorder, as you said some derive pleasure so this definitely not a brain disorder. But wickedness of the heart! Oh, and animals etc. Don't have the ability to discern what's right and wrong. They kill for food. And they haven't been told that there are consequences for their actions. We have! Also I really don't remember laughing at someone's misfortunes, I may have done so at some point in my life. But I truly don't remember doing that! I hope I haven't!
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Post by xna on Jun 8, 2015 16:03:54 GMT -5
Oh, and animals etc. Don't have the ability to discern what's right and wrong. They kill for food. And they haven't been told that there are consequences for their actions. We have! Also I really don't remember laughing at someone's misfortunes, I may have done so at some point in my life. But I truly don't remember doing that! I hope I haven't! Watch this for ... animals discerning right and wrong. www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KSryJXDpZo
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Post by maryhig on Jun 8, 2015 16:07:50 GMT -5
Oh, and animals etc. Don't have the ability to discern what's right and wrong. They kill for food. And they haven't been told that there are consequences for their actions. We have! Also I really don't remember laughing at someone's misfortunes, I may have done so at some point in my life. But I truly don't remember doing that! I hope I haven't! Watch this for ... animals discerning right and wrong. www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KSryJXDpZoFirstly before I watch it, is there any blood in it, or any cruelty? Thanks
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Post by rational on Jun 8, 2015 16:13:23 GMT -5
Absolutely, you and only you are responsible for your actions and you can't blame anyone else human or spirit, we are responsible for our own actions because God gives us free will. We have a choice, only a very few have a brain disorder, as you said some derive pleasure so this definitely not a brain disorder. But wickedness of the heart! Oh, and animals etc. Don't have the ability to discern what's right and wrong. They kill for food. And they haven't been told that there are consequences for their actions. We have! Also I really don't remember laughing at someone's misfortunes, I may have done so at some point in my life. But I truly don't remember doing that! I hope I haven't! :-/ Absolutely, you and only you are responsible for your actions and you can't blame anyone else human or spirit, we are responsible for our own actions because God gives us free will we are Homo sapiens (Latin for "wise man") and we have control over our actions. We have a choice, only a very few have a brain disorder, as you said some derive pleasure so this definitely not a brain disorder. But wickedness of the heart antisocial behavior which society tries to keep under control. Never seen someone slip and stumble in a comical way and laughed?
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Post by maryhig on Jun 8, 2015 16:17:03 GMT -5
Absolutely, you and only you are responsible for your actions and you can't blame anyone else human or spirit, we are responsible for our own actions because God gives us free will. We have a choice, only a very few have a brain disorder, as you said some derive pleasure so this definitely not a brain disorder. But wickedness of the heart! Oh, and animals etc. Don't have the ability to discern what's right and wrong. They kill for food. And they haven't been told that there are consequences for their actions. We have! Also I really don't remember laughing at someone's misfortunes, I may have done so at some point in my life. But I truly don't remember doing that! I hope I haven't! Absolutely, you and only you are responsible for your actions and you can't blame anyone else human or spirit, we are responsible for our own actions because God gives us free will we are Homo sapiens (Latin for "wise man") and we have control over our actions. We have a choice, only a very few have a brain disorder, as you said some derive pleasure so this definitely not a brain disorder. But wickedness of the heart antisocial behavior which society tries to keep under control. Never seen someone slip and stumble in a comical way and laughed? Only if the people are laughing too, but I don't remember doing it nastily. Honestly I don't!
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Post by xna on Jun 8, 2015 16:17:09 GMT -5
Firstly before I watch it, is there any blood in it, or any cruelty? Thanks No
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Post by maryhig on Jun 8, 2015 16:21:26 GMT -5
Firstly before I watch it, is there any blood in it, or any cruelty? Thanks No Ah shame, that's just frustration isn't that awful caging animals like that, they should be free in their own environment!
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Post by snow on Jun 8, 2015 16:21:52 GMT -5
Maryhig, the difference between you and someone with a flawed brain is that you have a conscience that you can follow. Some people do not feel any remorse or empathy. It's not there for them because of their brain function. They don't get the benefit you get from a 'pricked conscience'. They don't have one through no fault of their own. Everything we do is brain related, dependent upon our brain functioning in a proper way. The people that experience no empathy can be highly intelligent and through social learning learn what society accepts and does not accept. They can act how it is expected through this learning, but if they feel that they can do something and get away with it, they will likely do it if there is a benefit to take that risk. It won't be a conscience trigger in the sense that you speak of. We have learned a lot about how the brain works, how it affects moods, behavior etc. We still have a lot left to learn for sure. Another aspect of this is how hormones effect us. They can change a personality also. These are all physical flaws. That is why it makes no sense to me at all that if there is a God and an afterlife, and this God is aware of the physical flaws that determine our actions and thinking, why that same God would punish anyone for eternity for something that was beyond their control. You are lucky, you can control your impulses, but not all people can. So your telling me that every single person that does wicked things has a faulty brain? Sorry but I don't believe that for a minute? You hear of many people that have a conscience when they do seriously wrong things, even handing themselves in to the police, and some truly regretting what they've done so it can't always be the brain! Also, where do you think our conscience comes from? It often works against our own thoughts, as you said "a pricked conscience" to be pricked we must have had a different thought in the first place, so the conscience must be working against our nature! No that's not exactly what I'm saying. Conscience is a learned thing for the most part imo. Depending on which culture you live in decides what you believe is right and wrong. An example would be the friends believing that the only way to salvation is by hearing the gospel through the workers and professing through them in a gospel meeting and going on to be baptized by a worker and trying to live as much like the workers expect you to. They would have a different 'conscience prick' than you do about many things. An example would be some of them would not feel it was right to have a TV, to listen to music other than a hymn. Yet you don't have the same 'conscience prick' when you watch TV or listen to 'worldly music'. Why is that? Because this isn't how you were raised and of course it's a cultural thing. A sub culture to be sure, but a culture of the f & w's. Many things that might prick your conscious would not prick mine, yet I am probably just as loving, kind and compassionate as you. Maybe not, but I don't think I'm a horrific monster just because I don't believe in the Christian God. So part of what people do is their upbringing, what they have been taught is right and wrong. Part of it is a brain that is flawed, that doesn't allow the person to feel empathy etc. Or you can have a mental illness that causes you to have poor anger management and in the heat of the moment you react and then afterwards because your brain does allow for empathy, you feel great remorse for your actions. There are so many ways the brain dictates who we are as a personality. A good, kind and patient person can have a brain injury that turns them into an inpatient, nasty angry individual. Is it that person's fault? So it's a combination of things that make people the way they are. I'm just saying that an all knowing, all loving God should know this and to punish his creation because of things beyond their control, does not make sense to me. Does it make sense to you?
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Post by snow on Jun 8, 2015 16:27:58 GMT -5
Would I let a serial child killer stay in my physical home with my children? Of course not. I would also lock that person away from all children. This is earth where flawed brains reign supreme. However, if that same person had died and no longer had their flawed physical brain and therefore a flawed mindset, then I would think that person would no longer be a danger to anyone. I don't see how it is justice to punish a person for eternity because of something that they did while being governed by a flawed physical organ. Do you? I don't believe that it had anything to do with a faulty brain in many cases I'm afraid. The people are wicked, Hitler didn't have a faulty brain. He was evil. And because he listened to a wrong spirit he got worse and worse until he turned into he was a tyrant! He was listening to wickedness in his heart, and if he had of listened to his pricked conscience early on then maybe. he wouldn't have done the atrocities he did! Also, if you wouldn't let a child killer in your home, why would God let wicked spirits mix with his children in heaven which is his home. These people have a choice, do or don't do. They choose to do it, and they will receive what God thinks they deserve. In this life or the next! Did you even read what I said? If someone dies and no longer has a wicked 'spirit' why would God segregate you from them? If you loved and understood why they did what they did, why would you want them segregated for that matter? As I stated in the above post, no not all people who do 'bad' things have a faulty brain. However, Hitler could be said to have had definite issues. His upbringing and life circumstances probably contributed. Have a read about his medical status and you might see him in a slightly different light. Doesn't make what he did right, but it gives a better understanding of possibly what contributed to it. www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/74776.php
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