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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 15:33:44 GMT -5
Maryhig, you have gotten some answers already and I imagine they are all true. I have no memory of the trinity being preached. This is an interesting topic--had no idea that it had been preached and then the doctrine dropped as some are saying. I have no memory of the trinity being preached but I have memory of being baptized in the name to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost/Spirit by a worker. Isn't that referred to by some folks as the trinity?
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 20, 2015 15:39:37 GMT -5
Not quite Jesse - the Bible insists that worship is to be directed to God alone. If Christ is not God (the Son) any worship of Him contravenes God's word. Not my words Jesse - simply God's words. So then we are condemned to hell? That's what I've been wondering too. If you don't "understand" the trinity, are you going to hell? Ross, Mary, Nate? (A simple yes/no answer will suffice.)
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 20, 2015 15:42:57 GMT -5
That's what I've been wondering too. If you don't "understand" the trinity, are you going to hell? Ross, Mary, Nate? (A simple yes/no answer will suffice.) No. But it part of our spiritual growth that we understand about Godhead whom we LOVE, serve and worship.Hmmm. I'm okay with that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 16:03:57 GMT -5
I have no memory of the trinity being preached but I have memory of being baptized in the name to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost/Spirit by a worker. Isn't that referred to by some folks as the trinity? You will hear about the concept of the Trinity mention when you attend your Sunday morning fellowship/worship meetings. You will hear the friends and workers pray, sing, and give their testimonies, mentioning of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit.So the concept of the Trinity is there even though it may not be openly referred to as such? We pray to the Heavenly Father, we ask favors and mercies in Jesus's name, and we are moved by the Holy Spirit. We even sometimes sing a Hymn asking the Holy Spirit to breathe upon us. I get it.
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Post by whyisitso on Apr 20, 2015 16:53:31 GMT -5
Shouldn't really take the thread off topic but I have a few questions for you Review005 if you're able to answer them?
Are you currently preaching in a Gospel Meeting?
If yes, are you getting some interest from 'outsiders'?
If no (interest from 'outsiders')why not?
Do you speak to people in person the same way you do on TMB?
Why do you often change the wording of your posts (seems to be ones that haven't been quoted by someone else already) ? Do you re-read & 'Review' the first thing that you type and realize it sounds awful so edit it to less awful?
Are there people on this board that you really have something against?
Thanks for your time if your able to answer Whyisitso
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 20, 2015 17:06:25 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 20, 2015 17:12:42 GMT -5
No. But it part of our spiritual growth that we understand about Godhead whom we LOVE, serve and worship. Hmmm. I'm okay with that. Then there is this; "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Pretty simple I'd say.
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Post by snow on Apr 20, 2015 19:24:00 GMT -5
Do you have any idea how this all sounds? If Christians can't even get along because of their different interpretations of who God is, how can we ever hope Christians, Jews and Muslims will ever get along? It's really depressing.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 20, 2015 20:45:39 GMT -5
If we're not going to hell over it what's the problem?
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Post by fixit on Apr 20, 2015 21:22:42 GMT -5
If we're not going to hell over it what's the problem? Good question Jesse. Jesus taught a much simpler doctrine.
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Post by whyisitso on Apr 20, 2015 21:50:44 GMT -5
Shouldn't really take the thread off topic but I have a few questions for you Review005 if you're able to answer them? Are you currently preaching in a Gospel Meeting? If yes, are you getting some interest from 'outsiders'? If no (interest from 'outsiders')why not? Do you speak to people in person the same way you do on TMB? Why do you often change the wording of your posts (seems to be ones that haven't been quoted by someone else already) ? Do you re-read & 'Review' the first thing that you type and realize it sounds awful so edit it to less awful? Are there people on this board that you really have something against? Thanks for your time if your able to answer Whyisitso Sure I'll answer, send me a pm or get my email address from your aunt. Write with all the questions you have. I appreciate people asking questions. The questions have nothing to do with the subject of this thread & I will therefore not be answering them here. I have messaged you as requested. Hopefully it went through. I'm not sure which Aunt you're referring to as I have 14 Aunts. Look forward to your reply
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 20, 2015 21:56:41 GMT -5
I wonder when this poster will understand that members of the group understand that Jesus is fully divine and fully human? .They confess and acknowledge Jesus as the Christ,as their personal Lord and Saviour and as the Son of God. They do not use the terminology that RB uses and thus he makes repeatedly makes disparaging remarks about them on this and on any thread that he posts. Review, could you please give us some examples of where members of the F&W understand that Jesus is fully divine and fully human ? You seem to be speaking for a lot of people Review, from my experience in the F&W they do not believe as you have stated..... the words of a Hymn come to mind ... Christ Our Elder Brother. Is this making Jesus fully divine?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 20, 2015 22:04:27 GMT -5
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (from Latin trinitas "triad", from trinus "threefold") [1] defines God as three consubstantial persons, [2] expressions, or hypostases: [3] the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit; "one God in three persons".The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature". [4] In this context, a "nature" is what one is, while a "person" is who one is.[5][6][7] "According to this central mystery of most Christian faiths,[8] there is only one God in three persons: while distinct from one another in their relations of origin (as the Fourth Lateran Council declared, "it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds") and in their relations with one another, they are stated to be one in all else, co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial, and "each is God, whole and entire".[9] "Accordingly, the whole work of creation and grace is seen as a single operation common to all three divine persons, in which each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, so that all things are "from the Father", "through the Son" and "in the Holy Spirit".[10] "Terms such as "monotheism" and "incarnation", are not found in the Bible, but they denote theological concepts concerning Christian faith that are believed to be contained in the Bible.
Even the term "Bible" is not found in the Bible. "Trinity" is another such term.[11] "While the Fathers of the Church saw even Old Testament elements such as the appearance of three men to Abraham in Book of Genesis, chapter 18, as foreshadowings of the Trinity, it was the New Testament that they saw as a basis for developing the concept of the Trinity.
The most influential of the New Testament texts seen as implying the teaching of the Trinity was Matthew 28:19, which mandated baptizing "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".
Reflection, proclamation and dialogue led to the formulation of the doctrine that was felt to correspond to the data in the Bible.
The simplest outline of the doctrine was formulated in the 4th century, largely in terms of rejection of what was considered not to be consonant with general Christian belief. Further elaboration continued in the succeeding centuries.[12]
Scripture does not contain expressly a formulated doctrine of the Trinity. Rather, according to the Christian theology, it "bears witness to" the activity of a God who can only be understood in trinitarian terms.[13] The doctrine did not take its definitive shape until late in the fourth century.[14] During the intervening period, various tentative solutions, some more and some less satisfactory were proposed.[15]
Trinitarianism contrasts with nontrinitarian positions which include Binitarianism (one deity in two persons, or two deities), Unitarianism (one deity in one person, analogous to Jewish interpretation of the Shema and Muslim belief in Tawhid), Oneness Pentecostalism or Modalism (one deity manifested in three separate aspects). (from wiki) NOW! that we have THAT all settled, - what does it mean anyway?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 20, 2015 22:42:55 GMT -5
4140 trinity references on TMB haven't cleared up the confusion - the ones on this thread won't either. No one should be confused about that fact.
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Post by fixit on Apr 20, 2015 23:15:01 GMT -5
I wonder when this poster will understand that members of the group understand that Jesus is fully divine and fully human? .They confess and acknowledge Jesus as the Christ,as their personal Lord and Saviour and as the Son of God. They do not use the terminology that RB uses and thus he makes repeatedly makes disparaging remarks about them on this and on any thread that he posts. Review, could you please give us some examples of where members of the F&W understand that Jesus is fully divine and fully human ? You seem to be speaking for a lot of people Review, from my experience in the F&W they do not believe as you have stated..... the words of a Hymn come to mind ... Christ Our Elder Brother. Is this making Jesus fully divine? Elder brother - as in firstborn among many brethren? There's a number of hymns referring to Christ as divine e.g. God’s own way abides the same In every age and clime. There is but one true saving name: The name of Christ divine. Here's another hymn... Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way! Wounded and weary, help me, I pray! Power, all power, surely is Thine! Touch me and heal me, Savior divine.
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Post by snow on Apr 21, 2015 0:08:47 GMT -5
If we're not going to hell over it what's the problem? It simply causes confusion, the type which is evident on this thread. Because the vast majority of workers reject Jesus as God (unlike the Apostles who were very comfortable and confident with who Jesus was) it is not too long before his humanity is emphasised over his divinity and then it's not too long before the primary purpose fro Jesus coming was that he might show us how to live a perfect life. And then he is referred to as our elder brother just like th workers are our elder brothers. A new saying that I have now heard a few times recently is that the workers don't have homes just like Jesus didn't have a home. When you respond and say "but Jesus created the heavens and the earth" you get a very blank look and "oh no he didn't do that...." Poor teaching results in confusion. The worker on this thread seems to be one of the few that believes that Jesus, the son of God is also our great God. However this worker won't dare declare that "Jesus is God". He will shift the subject but won't utter the words. Why? I think we all know the answer. If he states it clearly rather than dancing around it his tenure as a worker may be short - based on past examples. Thankfully the apostles didn't have the same problem - they didn't dance around it but stated it plainly and clearly. They made it very clear that Jesus is our great God and saviour and that the Word which became flesh and dwelt among us was God. No confusion in the scriptures. OK then explain this to me. Irvine Grey preaches the Trinity. He writes that the 2x2's are a particularly dangerous cult because they don't believe in the trinity. So if no one is destined for hell for not believing in the trinity, why is the 2x2's a dangerous cult for not believing in it?
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Post by responding on Apr 21, 2015 0:23:49 GMT -5
Never heard that Mary and born of a Virgin which means her mother and grandmother were virgins? Never heard of such a thing. Mary married and had other chiLdren. She was virgin when she had Jesus. This is what I meant about most not understanding what it's all about. Look up "immaculate conception" and you'll be surprised at how far from scripture this doctrine (Jesus = God) takes you.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 21, 2015 0:39:00 GMT -5
Some trinity believers here on TMB have said trinity teaching cannot be reduced to "Jesus = God". So even trinity believers are not in complete agreement with each other.
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Post by maryhig on Apr 21, 2015 0:39:16 GMT -5
Dmmm you have done your homework whether you understand it or not. No one is going to hell for not believing in the trinity. To me a discussion is not about not getting on with people, it is a discussion and healthy. I sometimes get the feeling those who do not believe in the Trinity might think those who do are going to hell. I for one would never ever say anyone is going to hell. Jesus pointed out the people others thought were going to hell and forgave their sins. Even the thief on the cross who may have sinned all his life got in. How do we know who's going to hell? There is no way I would even dare to say that about anybody. I look at it as I hope everyone gets into heaven. But that's in God's hands and he is the only one who knows our hearts.
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2015 0:48:17 GMT -5
Review can you please explain these quotes by workers then:
Fred Allen In the world there is the ARGUMENT of the Trinity. The Catholics believe in one person. But Jesus said "That they may be one as we are one." This was a number of people with one heart, mind and spirit to do one thing. There is one mind and heart of Father and Son and Spirit. It is important to have unity of heart and mind and spirit to do the will of God as Jesus to do the Father's will. [Post Falls ID Conv 1989] REF #198
Willis Propp God, Jesus and Spirit are one in that they are united but not one in single personality. [Devon MT 1977] REF #130
Tharold Sylvester Different churches have different ideas of what the word Trinity means. Be sure to ask them what they mean by the word Trinity. [Washington] REF #345
Dale Bors It depends who we are talking to whether we believe in the Trinity or not. [Sacramento CA 1979] REF #211
Dan Hilton Beware of the devilish doctrine of the Trinity. [Manhattan MT Conv 1996] REF 160
Sydney Holt The Trinity is one in purpose, but not in essence
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Post by fixit on Apr 21, 2015 0:51:42 GMT -5
Never heard that Mary and born of a Virgin which means her mother and grandmother were virgins? Never heard of such a thing. Mary married and had other chiLdren. She was virgin when she had Jesus. This is what I meant about most not understanding what it's all about. Look up "immaculate conception" and you'll be surprised at how far from scripture this doctrine (Jesus = God) takes you.
The Catholic Church teaches as dogma that the Virgin Mary "having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory" It's taught that both Jesus and Mary were immaculately conceived.
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Post by penguin on Apr 21, 2015 1:02:43 GMT -5
Going right back to the start of the debate, the nub of it is we could have a correct notion of the Godhead, and even win the argument about what's right and wrong with trinity doctrine, but that in itself is not going to assure us of salvation.
Jesus said, Luke 6 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
Doing His will is what is expected of every child of God, it is across the will of nature and is a costly path to tread.
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Post by maryhig on Apr 21, 2015 1:05:18 GMT -5
Review can you please explain these quotes by workers then: Fred Allen In the world there is the ARGUMENT of the Trinity. The Catholics believe in one person. But Jesus said "That they may be one as we are one." This was a number of people with one heart, mind and spirit to do one thing. There is one mind and heart of Father and Son and Spirit. It is important to have unity of heart and mind and spirit to do the will of God as Jesus to do the Father's will. [Post Falls ID Conv 1989] REF #198 Willis Propp God, Jesus and Spirit are one in that they are united but not one in single personality. [Devon MT 1977] REF #130 Tharold Sylvester Different churches have different ideas of what the word Trinity means. Be sure to ask them what they mean by the word Trinity. [Washington] REF #345 Dale Bors It depends who we are talking to whether we believe in the Trinity or not. [Sacramento CA 1979] REF #211 Dan Hilton Beware of the devilish doctrine of the Trinity. [Manhattan MT Conv 1996] REF 160 Sydney Holt The Trinity is one in purpose, but not in essence I've never heard of Fred Allen, but what he said there is spot on! This is exactly what I've been taught and believe in my heart to be right! We are at one with God and Christ Jesus, once we are at one with them through our hearts, minds, spirit, soul and strength. Once Christ is in our heart the two become one like a marriage, and he, being in God's image shows us God's nature and requirements. We then live according to what we see. Thus agreeing as one in the flesh. We are then at one with Christ and God. As they are one!
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 21, 2015 1:32:57 GMT -5
In some old hymns (some of which were in the 2x2 hymn book but have been removed) the words 3 in one appear etc. it's worth noting that as workers increasingly have rejected that Jesus is both Lord and God that they have changed the words in the wonderful old hymn "when I survey".The original writer of this hymn used the line "Christ my God" but this was changed because the senior 2x2 workers reject that Jesus is God. It's still not clear why they worship Jesus if they reject that he is God. The bible clearly teaches that we are only to worship God and no other. Bowden, Of course "it still isn't clear to you," because it's what you have concocted in you head.
Why didn't you say what "Christ my God" was changed to?
Because it makes no difference what it was changed to. The only word changed was "God" to "Lord"/ "Save in the cross of Christ, my God;" to "Save in the cross of Christ, my Lord;
What is doctrinally different about the two words? Do you think that Dr. Edward Miller, -who wrote the song originally, -would have gotten one whit out of shape because of the change? Edward Miller
Born: October 30, 1735, Norwich, England. Died: September 12, 1807, Doncaster, South Yorkshire, England. Buried: St. George’s Church, Doncaster.
"Miller was apprenticed to his father, a pavior (a layer of paving stones and the like), but ran away to study music. At one time he was a flautist in Handel’s orchestra. "He played the organ for 50 years at Doncaster Church, and composed hymn tunes and harpsichord sonatas. Cambridge University awarded him a doctorate degree in 1786. His works include:
The Psalms of David Set to New Music, 1774 Elements of Thorough-bass and Composition, 1787 The Psalms of David for the Use of Parish Churches, 1790 Thoughts on the Present Performance of Psalmody, 1791 The Psalms of Watts and Wesley, 1801 Sacred Music, 1802 History of Doncaster, 1804
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2015 1:40:31 GMT -5
Review can you please explain these quotes by workers then: Fred Allen In the world there is the ARGUMENT of the Trinity. The Catholics believe in one person. But Jesus said "That they may be one as we are one." This was a number of people with one heart, mind and spirit to do one thing. There is one mind and heart of Father and Son and Spirit. It is important to have unity of heart and mind and spirit to do the will of God as Jesus to do the Father's will. [Post Falls ID Conv 1989] REF #198 Willis Propp God, Jesus and Spirit are one in that they are united but not one in single personality. [Devon MT 1977] REF #130 Tharold Sylvester Different churches have different ideas of what the word Trinity means. Be sure to ask them what they mean by the word Trinity. [Washington] REF #345 Dale Bors It depends who we are talking to whether we believe in the Trinity or not. [Sacramento CA 1979] REF #211 Dan Hilton Beware of the devilish doctrine of the Trinity. [Manhattan MT Conv 1996] REF 160 Sydney Holt The Trinity is one in purpose, but not in essence I've never heard of Fred Allen, but what he said there is spot on! This is exactly what I've been taught and believe in my heart to be right! We are at one with God and Christ Jesus, once we are at one with them through our hearts, minds, spirit, soul and strength. Once Christ is in our heart the two become one like a marriage, and he, being in God's image shows us God's nature and requirements. We then live according to what we see. Thus agreeing as one in the flesh. We are then at one with Christ and God. As they are one! So what about the other quotes ? Also what do you mean by "We then live according to what we see. " ?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 21, 2015 1:45:50 GMT -5
Bowden, Of course "it still isn't clear to you," because it's what you have concocted in you head.
Why didn't you say what "Christ my God" was changed to?
Because it makes no difference what it was changed to. The only word changed was "God" to "Lord"/ "Save in the cross of Christ, my God;" to "Save in the cross of Christ, my Lord;
What is doctrinally different about the two words? Do you think that Dr. Edward Miller, -who wrote the song originally, -would have gotten one whit out of shape because of the change? Edward Miller
Born: October 30, 1735, Norwich, England. Died: September 12, 1807, Doncaster, South Yorkshire, England. Buried: St. George’s Church, Doncaster.
"Miller was apprenticed to his father, a pavior (a layer of paving stones and the like), but ran away to study music. At one time he was a flautist in Handel’s orchestra. "He played the organ for 50 years at Doncaster Church, and composed hymn tunes and harpsichord sonatas. Cambridge University awarded him a doctorate degree in 1786. His works include:
The Psalms of David Set to New Music, 1774 Elements of Thorough-bass and Composition, 1787 The Psalms of David for the Use of Parish Churches, 1790 Thoughts on the Present Performance of Psalmody, 1791 The Psalms of Watts and Wesley, 1801 Sacred Music, 1802 History of Doncaster, 1804
It's a famous hymn and certainly hasn't been changed by others. Based on your comments I assume you believe it's acceptable to change any famous poem or thesis written by a person after they die. Why don't you just answer what I asked, "What is doctrinally different about the two words?"
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2015 1:53:29 GMT -5
Here is another for you Review !
JACKIE MEEKS Jesus had a sinful nature and the potential is there for us to overcome our flesh if we walk in His Way. He learned obedience through suffering, We can do the same. Obedience resulted in Jesus being made perfect. Our salvation results in obedience to the Father. [Post Falls Convention 1972] Quotations By Workers P. 8, 15
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Post by Mary on Apr 21, 2015 1:56:20 GMT -5
Some trinity believers here on TMB have said trinity teaching cannot be reduced to "Jesus = God". So even trinity believers are not in complete agreement with each other. I have not heard anyone say that trinity is Jesus alone = God. Trinity is 3. I.e Father, Son and Holy Spirit = God. Also what they say is that Jesus is not the Father nor is the Father the Son. The disagreement and confusion is not us, it is you who is not understanding the Trinity.
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