jello
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Post by jello on Apr 14, 2015 1:04:47 GMT -5
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Post by responding on Apr 14, 2015 3:34:19 GMT -5
Jesus (Matthew 19:16): "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." P. L.: "The verse that's been coming to my mind is the time that man came to Jesus and he said 'Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.' Jesus had a lot to do with sinners, he had a lot to do with self-righteous religious people, and he had a lot to do with some of the best men living on earth at that time, and He said that no one is good, not even himself. No one is good but my Father in Heaven." www.2x2ministry.org: "How in the world can the WORKERS preach that Jesus Christ was evil (not good, a sinner) and reject him as the perfect spotless lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world and still call themselves Christians?" Notice that the underlined sentence is not P.L.'s judgment of Jesus - he was quoting Jesus' own words.... 2x2ministry.org has twisted this statement to their own preconception.
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jello
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Post by jello on Apr 14, 2015 20:30:41 GMT -5
So you believe that Jesus Christ is evil, based on this verse? And you find fault with Brad for believing that Jesus Christ is good?
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jello
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Post by jello on Apr 15, 2015 0:40:41 GMT -5
Amen. And well explained. The workers have a saying "living church, dying ministry" They believe it is their sacrifice as workers that allows people to profess and go to Heaven. That is one reason of many that makes them a dangerous cult. The workers believe the one time sacrifice of Jesus was not sufficient and requires the workers to save them!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 1:10:36 GMT -5
Amen. And well explained. The workers have a saying "living church, dying ministry" They believe it is their sacrifice as workers that allows people to profess and go to Heaven. That is one reason of many that makes them a dangerous cult. The workers believe the one time sacrifice of Jesus was not sufficient and requires the workers to save them! that is simply not true of all the workers i have listened to over many many years they have always pointed to Jesus as being the saviour no body else
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 15, 2015 1:27:09 GMT -5
Virgo, I am intrigued that you say that is not true. I have sat in numerous mission meetings and conventions, some where you have been present, and heard this sentiment many times.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 1:51:28 GMT -5
Virgo, I am intrigued that you say that is not true. I have sat in numerous mission meetings and conventions, some where you have been present, and heard this sentiment many times. you may have but i'm still sticking by what i have posted
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Post by fred on Apr 15, 2015 1:58:12 GMT -5
What you are talking about here is the result of confusion, a lack of clear expository teaching has always been a problem.
I have no doubt that this gentleman would not deny the perfection of Christ, and yet his words point to something else. Perhaps if it was pointed out to him he would use different wording.......... or maybe not.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 15, 2015 2:29:02 GMT -5
Virgo, I am intrigued that you say that is not true. I have sat in numerous mission meetings and conventions, some where you have been present, and heard this sentiment many times. you may have but i'm still sticking by what i have posted Yes, no doubt you would. Over the years I have noticed numerous people turning up at meetings with a bucket of sand to put their head in.
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Apr 15, 2015 2:41:45 GMT -5
What you are talking about here is the result of confusion, a lack of clear expository teaching has always been a problem. I have no doubt that this gentleman would not deny the perfection of Christ, and yet his words point to something else. Perhaps if it was pointed out to him he would use different wording.......... or maybe not. Yes, I am pretty certain that if you asked Peter Liddle the question "Was Jesus completely sinless and perfect in every way?" he would say "yes". But as you say his words at the funeral contradict this position. I am also convinced it is the result of a lack of clear expository teaching (and training) - verses are quoted often out of context and the big salvation picture of the Bible is ignored. It's not easily fixed in the 2x2 system and will likely get worse over time - it seems that in the early days of the 2x2's core Christian doctrine/teaching was largely upheld but the further it goes it gets diluted. Mind you it's not the only church in which this occurs! The other interesting aspect is that most of the workers and friends at the service wouldn't have even noticed it. I know plenty of folk (likely you know many of the same folk as well!) who don't question an ounce of what a worker says so it is treated as gospel - hence the problem. When we left meetings, a key question that we (along with many others) were asking the senior workers was how we received salvation. We knew the answer from the Bible but it was interesting to get different senior worker perspectives. In my last Special Meetings in Sydney, the first senior worker (now Head Worker of South Australia) said it was essentially all up to us and that those people who were talking about it being a gift of grace had lost their faith, the second senior worker had it more 50/50 (gift of grace/our works) and by the last senior worker in the afternoon it had evolved to 100% gift of grace but only available through the right ministry. A few people noticed the shift but the vast majority of folk would have just let it float over them - it all came from the workers so it must be right.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 3:08:25 GMT -5
you may have but i'm still sticking by what i have posted Yes, no doubt you would. Over the years I have noticed numerous people turning up at meetings with a bucket of sand to put their head in. why are you nasty
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 15, 2015 3:13:02 GMT -5
Nasty? I'm telling it how I see and hear it. If you are offended by it then do something about and ask the workers some searching questions about their version of the gospel and why it does not add up to what is written in the bible and even more telling is in many cases not evident in their own lives.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 3:52:35 GMT -5
Nasty? I'm telling it how I see and hear it. If you are offended by it then do something about and ask the workers some searching questions about their version of the gospel and why it does not add up to what is written in the bible and even more telling is in many cases not evident in their own lives. I have noticed numerous people turning up at meetings with a bucket of sand to put their head in. that is nasty
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 15, 2015 4:12:07 GMT -5
I'm concerned that you are upset, maybe a glass of warm milk and a hug would help.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 5:05:18 GMT -5
There is something very disturbing about posting detailed personal matters like these on the www in a rather controversial and critical matter and using such insulting words such as "cult," and also naming and identifying individuals and " quoting" what they are supposed to have said. I sincerely hope that proper permission has been obtained and granted for such a publication on this forum. This may very well raised some legal issues and I hope that the forum administrators are aware of this; this is my concern, and it has been ringing some alarm bells;gone over the top perhaps? ? ps. Isn't there a rule that people should not be identified by name but only by initials?
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Post by responding on Apr 15, 2015 6:09:18 GMT -5
www.2x2ministry.org: "How in the world can the WORKERS preach that Jesus Christ was evil (not good, a sinner) and reject him as the perfect spotless lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world and still call themselves Christians?"
It is especially insulting and obviously not true to claim that P.L. or anyone else preaches that Jesus Christ is "evil" or "a sinner". Is it not possible to question someone's understanding of a verse without resorting to such derogatory statements?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 6:53:08 GMT -5
There is something very disturbing about posting detailed personal matters like these on the www in a rather controversial and critical matter and using such insulting words such as "cult," and also naming and identifying individuals and " quoting" what they are supposed to have said. I sincerely hope that proper permission has been obtained and granted for such a publication on this forum. This may very well raised some legal issues and I hope that the forum administrators are aware of this; this is my concern, and it has been ringing some alarm bells;gone over the top perhaps? ? ps. Isn't there a rule that people should not be identified by name but only by initials? Partaker - I understand where you are coming from but based on the link that Jello posted, the funeral notes were on the www and in circulation. The funeral was a public event (anyone could go) so a worker should expect that someone may record what was said and distribute. Of course, most people in the group would see the distribution of such notes as helpful and positive. The only thing that would bar copying and distribution would be copyright law. This would not apply to short talks at a public event. Ok, just trying to be on the safe side, I am not an Attorney at law but if the admin and everyone else is satisfied that everything is above board and Legal then that is ok with me also.
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Post by breakingfree on Apr 15, 2015 12:13:43 GMT -5
Amen. And well explained. The workers have a saying "living church, dying ministry" They believe it is their sacrifice as workers that allows people to profess and go to Heaven. That is one reason of many that makes them a dangerous cult. The workers believe the one time sacrifice of Jesus was not sufficient and requires the workers to save them! that is simply not true of all the workers i have listened to over many many years they have always pointed to Jesus as being the saviour no body else Interesting...another indication that 2x2 doctrine isn't consistant and the same the world over. Just a couple of weeks ago, in a conversation with my elder, I asked him if Jesus alone is enough for salvation. He answered "No. You must believe in, follow, and support the one true ministry, too. If you don't have the ministry, you can't have salvation. It takes both.'
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Post by xna on Apr 15, 2015 13:18:11 GMT -5
that is simply not true of all the workers i have listened to over many many years they have always pointed to Jesus as being the saviour no body else Interesting...another indication that 2x2 doctrine isn't consistant and the same the world over. Just a couple of weeks ago, in a conversation with my elder, I asked him if Jesus alone is enough for salvation. He answered "No. You must believe in, follow, and support the one true ministry, too. If you don't have the ministry, you can't have salvation. It takes both.' That is what I was taught also. If you could go to just any church you would stop at another long before you reached the 2x2 home meeting. I suspect all denominations think their way, is the one right way, otherwise there would be no need for that denomination to have been formed. The difference between most other denominations and the 2x2 is they are more honest about their position. If pressed the other denominations would say the same, but it’s not something they are upfront about. You can’t build a following if you let the followers follow anyone. I see this as one of the main distinctions between a denomination and a non-denominational church, which has the freedom to direct the ministry and teaching of the local church without interference or control from without.
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Post by snow on Apr 15, 2015 13:49:26 GMT -5
Definitely what I was told when I quit professing. You won't go to heaven if you don't profess. Everyone knows that. Those who deny it really do have their heads in the sand. Not saying they might not believe it's true that people can be saved without professing, but they are in denial if they say that's not what the group think/worker think is on the subject.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 23:08:12 GMT -5
that is simply not true of all the workers i have listened to over many many years they have always pointed to Jesus as being the saviour no body else Interesting...another indication that 2x2 doctrine isn't consistant and the same the world over. Just a couple of weeks ago, in a conversation with my elder, I asked him if Jesus alone is enough for salvation. He answered "No. You must believe in, follow, and support the one true ministry, too. If you don't have the ministry, you can't have salvation. It takes both.' and that is absolutely correct, we are not saying that the ministry is the source of salvation Jesus plainly is, but if you don't have the ministry to guide one to Christ you don't have salvation that is why He set up a ministry for that very purpose Paul said 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 23:18:41 GMT -5
Your church elder is correct, it takes BOTH..... Believing and Continuing unto the end. We read in the book of Acts and the New Testament epistles... the followers of Jesus continue believing in the apostles ministry and New Testament fellowship unto the end of life.
Acts 1:41-42 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
If those who decided to go back to their faith, religion then read the author of Hebrews 1:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
John 6:66-71 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Jesus said in Matthew 24:9-13 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Nate - it's good to see that you line up with the workers on this - which is identical to Catholic Church doctrine/teaching! But the elder is absolutely incorrect - our faith is to be in Christ alone, not in an earthly ministry. Of course, the early church continued stedfastly in the apostle's doctrine (teaching) and fellowship. But nowhere were Christians required to put even 0.00000001% of their faith in a man or a women. The apostle Paul and the other apostles did not want anyone to put an ounce of faith or belief in them. If you do that you can end up anywhere in terms of teaching and doctrine, which is exactly what has happened. Some 2x2 folk hold on to what a worker says with far greater commitment compared to what Christ has said. You only have to look at the issue of who Christ is to understand that. I don't understand why you have quoted the verses you have - enduring unto the end has nothing to do with believing in and following an earthly ministry. It has everything (ie 100%) to do with trusting fully in the saving grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and following Him alone unto the end of our lives. the elder did not say anything about having faith in the ministry and as you wrote [our faith is to be in Christ alone, not in an earthly ministry.] is true, those in the ministry need to have faith in Jesus just as the children of God do where do you get the idea the we put our faith in a man or a women? How much store do you put in the words of Paul or James or even in Jude? how much of their words do you hold onto what about what Paul said? 1 Corinthians 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me. 1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 16, 2015 1:37:23 GMT -5
Definitely what I was told when I quit professing. You won't go to heaven if you don't profess. Everyone knows that. Those who deny it really do have their heads in the sand. Not saying they might not believe it's true that people can be saved without professing, but they are in denial if they say that's not what the group think/worker think is on the subject. Hey Snow, did you see those people carrying buckets of sand into the meetings as well.
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Post by snow on Apr 16, 2015 10:32:41 GMT -5
Definitely what I was told when I quit professing. You won't go to heaven if you don't profess. Everyone knows that. Those who deny it really do have their heads in the sand. Not saying they might not believe it's true that people can be saved without professing, but they are in denial if they say that's not what the group think/worker think is on the subject. Hey Snow, did you see those people carrying buckets of sand into the meetings as well. Yes and one day when I wasn't looking where I was going I tripped over one, fell on my head and ever since then I've been labelled 'unwilling'.
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Post by fixit on Apr 16, 2015 18:24:38 GMT -5
Here's what we've been told of Peter Liddle's message:
"Jesus is God" folks are understandably touchy about this scripture and have to twist it to fit with their doctrine.
Peter Liddle doesn't have the "Jesus is God" blinders on and was pretty much interpreting it as it's written.
Anyone who reads this portion with no religious bias would interpret it as "don't call me good - only my Father in Heaven is good".
Or, as Peter Liddle put it "He said that no one is good, not even himself. No one is good but my Father in Heaven".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2015 23:11:59 GMT -5
Ross, A Forget the meaningless rhetoric in your posts & the same old meaningless generalisations. You have written lots but have been unable to negate the correct statements I have made about your imaginative interpretation of scripture. If you wish to post then negate my correct statements with fact and leave out the 'typical worker statement' bowden generalisations etc B If anyone was to contact Peter Liddle personally and ask 'Peter do you consider Jesus Christ was only a man, was a sinful man" He would answer "No" If we asked "Peter is Jesus Christ the Son of God?" He would answer "Yes" Any person who doubts or denies that is foolish, dishonest or both. I have clearly commented on what you wrote, however, I can't comment on your interpretation of the passage because you haven't given one. If my interpretation is imaginative, I'm quite happy to line up with Christians down through the ages who have interpreted the passage in the same way. I fully understand why you don't interpret it that way. If Peter Liddle's answer to the first question is "No", why did he state that Christ said that even He, Jesus, was not good? It is a logical question and deserves a logical answer. which Christians would they be? he said it because Jesus said it or is it the case that we are not to repeat what Jesus said?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2015 23:30:24 GMT -5
which Christians would they be? he said it because Jesus said it or is it the case that we are not to repeat what Jesus said? Those who have been adopted as Christ's sons and daughters down through the ages. Jesus did not say that he was not good. You know that and it is very clear. The passage has always been a major problem for those who reject the deity of Christ. For Christians who acknowledge his deity Christ's words are perfectly logical and understandable. Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
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Post by fixit on Apr 16, 2015 23:38:52 GMT -5
which Christians would they be? he said it because Jesus said it or is it the case that we are not to repeat what Jesus said? Those who have been adopted as Christ's sons and daughters down through the ages. Does the bible say that Christ has sons and daughters?
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