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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2015 2:00:00 GMT -5
Edna Powell Christ has shown us how to conform ourselves to the image of God. We try to conform ourselves to the image of God. [Glen Valley BC Canada Conv 8/15/88] REF #141
Howard Mooney We believe in the divinity of Christ but we believe also that the Way He represented is the true Way from earth to heaven. Believe this and be willing to separate from all else and adhere to that Way. We have life through believing in His name. [Saginaw OR 1981] REF #220
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 21, 2015 2:28:09 GMT -5
Why don't you just answer what I asked, "What is doctrinally different about the two words?"
For Christians no difference. For 2x2's who reject that Jesus is God a world of difference.Now you might answer my question,,,, Bowden, The 2x2's doesn't reject Jesus as God any more than your present religion does.
There is no need to answer your question. It isn't relevant to the subject being discussed. It is one of those 'fallacies" you tend to throw into the discussion to sidetrack the issue.
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Post by penguin on Apr 21, 2015 3:21:58 GMT -5
The dancing continues. There are many titles in the Bible for Jesus including Son of God, Emmanuel. Lord. Yahweh. God, Mighty God and I could go on. Our resident worker seemingly believes that Jesus is the son of God and is also God as it is stated in the Bible. Not in any commentary written by man. Why is he so willing to state that he believes that Jesus is fully divine and fully human which whilst correct is not in the Bible in those words but not willing to support or quote the Word of God which clearly says that Jesus is our God and Saviour.? Perhaps he is comfortable for the confusion to reign? God is not the author of confusion. A name for Jesus you didn't list was "Son of man". The truth that He overcame world flesh and devil (Hey is there a trinity of bad influences, or are there even more I think!), and never failed, never got discouraged and properly finished his mission on earth guiltless and unblemished in His testimony are all features of His life for which we must be most grateful. In still being divine as Son of God, He was not robotic either
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Post by maryhig on Apr 21, 2015 4:22:18 GMT -5
Review can you please explain these quotes by workers then: Fred Allen In the world there is the ARGUMENT of the Trinity. The Catholics believe in one person. But Jesus said "That they may be one as we are one." This was a number of people with one heart, mind and spirit to do one thing. There is one mind and heart of Father and Son and Spirit. It is important to have unity of heart and mind and spirit to do the will of God as Jesus to do the Father's will. [Post Falls ID Conv 1989] REF #198 Willis Propp God, Jesus and Spirit are one in that they are united but not one in single personality. [Devon MT 1977] REF #130 Tharold Sylvester Different churches have different ideas of what the word Trinity means. Be sure to ask them what they mean by the word Trinity. [Washington] REF #345 Dale Bors It depends who we are talking to whether we believe in the Trinity or not. [Sacramento CA 1979] REF #211 Dan Hilton Beware of the devilish doctrine of the Trinity. [Manhattan MT Conv 1996] REF 160 Sydney Holt The Trinity is one in purpose, but not in essence Thanks Roselyn - sheer confusion in these statements. Workers tie themselves in all kinds of knots. They can't possibly believe what the Boble says on this important matter because they have to differentiate themselves from all the other false churches out there'. So they come up with a lot of different ideas which equals mass confusion on something that has been settled and defended by Christians since the early church. To add to the confusion Fred Allen misquotes what the Catholics believe so the folklore grows. Sorry this is edited, as I realised Ross hadn't included my post on his post which I thought he had. So for roselyn Seeing is one of the basic principles of Jesus teachings. To see him is to understand. If we have Christ in our hearts we see and understand God because he brings God's Spirit to us, then our eyes are opened, we've come from darkness to light. Evening to morning. Like switching a light on in a dark room, but it's understanding God in your heart and we live according to how the Spirit guides us! Seeing is receiving light! Blessed at the pure at heart, for they shall see God! John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. It's not your natural eyes and ears he's talking about, it's of the Spirit in the heart! I will also read the rest of what you quoted and get back to you
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 4:33:26 GMT -5
Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. Seeing is receiving light. May I add: and Jesus is the light of the world. Heavy stuff maryhig, I like it.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 21, 2015 4:41:00 GMT -5
Why don't you just answer what I asked, "What is doctrinally different about the two words?"
For Christians no difference. For 2x2's who reject that Jesus is God a world of difference. "2x2s" aren't Christians? I thought we weren't going to be condemned to hell over this. Now we are? What's the "world of difference", what does that mean?? Seems really confusing...
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Post by fred on Apr 21, 2015 5:06:46 GMT -5
That was not implied, 2x2's are a subset of Christians.
Again, not implied. Do you have and axe to grind,Jesse?
The difference between 'divinity' and 'deity' is being discussed on another thread, you can contribute there if you wish.
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Post by maryhig on Apr 21, 2015 5:15:02 GMT -5
Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. Seeing is receiving light. May I add: and Jesus is the light of the world. Heavy stuff maryhig, I like it. Partaker and Jessie and to all other f&w's, I've just been reading what your people have written in the quotes that Roselyn posted and I like them! We believe this also! They clearly show Jesus is in the express image of the Father but isn't him. Roselyn those people your quoting are all saying the same thing, that Jesus is in the image of God and we have to follow him to become a part of God's kingdom! I liked all of what your people have said, but particularly what Jackie Meeks and Edna Powell (as well as Fred Allen) Thanks Roselyn for posting those quotes, really interesting!
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Post by Mary on Apr 21, 2015 5:24:38 GMT -5
No one had said Jesus is the Father. Show me where someone has said that? That is not Trinity teaching.
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Post by fixit on Apr 21, 2015 5:29:58 GMT -5
Seems as if review005 is out of step with the early workers who believed in the Trinity. So you took the word projection out of your post review005. Was it bcz it was you who was doing the projecting. Is this your projection? I am not anti Trinity, not at all. But the attitude of one of the staunch trinity boys here does nothing to promote his cause! I haven't seen the anti trinity camp railing like he does against those who don't subscribe his views and terminology! It could be worse...we non-Trinitarians could be labelled heretics and punished... —Codex Theodosianus, xvi.1.2
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Post by Mary on Apr 21, 2015 5:39:18 GMT -5
Do you have bread and wine in meetings, fixit? Why as it is a Catholic tradition. Also you had better not believe in the Virgin birth either as it came from the Catholics. You think we shouldn't believe in the Trinity because Catholics do but you believe in plenty of Catholic teachings but that is ok?
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Post by maryhig on Apr 21, 2015 5:49:11 GMT -5
Is this your projection? I am not anti Trinity, not at all. But the attitude of one of the staunch trinity boys here does nothing to promote his cause! I haven't seen the anti trinity camp railing like he does against those who don't subscribe his views and terminology! It could be worse...we non-Trinitarians could be labelled heretics and punished... —Codex Theodosianus, xvi.1.2 Just like Gods people in the past, they were torn asunder and feed to lions, Just because they didn't believe in the mainstream religious ways of the time. We apparently listen to devils teaching us wrong, just like they said Jesus did. But we see and hear God the Father through Christ Jesus, not God the Trinity which is man made! We would be deemed as witches by mainstream religion, if the trials were today because of our beliefs, yet I love God with all my heart and follow Jesus.
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2015 5:52:02 GMT -5
The dancing continues. There are many titles in the Bible for Jesus including Son of God, Emmanuel. Lord. Yahweh. God, Mighty God and I could go on. Our resident worker seemingly believes that Jesus is the son of God and is also God as it is stated in the Bible. Not in any commentary written by man. Why is he so willing to state that he believes that Jesus is fully divine and fully human which whilst correct is not in the Bible in those words but not willing to support or quote the Word of God which clearly says that Jesus is our God and Saviour.? Perhaps he is comfortable for the confusion to reign? God is not the author of confusion. Ross unfortunately fails to understand the confusion is in his mind and posts. Anyway he's allowed to feel it is with someone else! This post reconfirms again his 'obsession' with the word 'God'....in the context of his 'trinity talk' filled mind. He doesn't seem to use the Biblical 'Son of God'. But I don't rail against him for that, it's up to him. As I've already mentioned it seems his understanding of trinity has closed his mind to the reality, life and salvation enjoyed by those who don't subscribe to his trinity terminology. This is one form of exclusivity....something he often rails against. Review what are your views on the comments I have posted that are quotes of workers ? Or are you going to say they don't contradict each other ! Maybe you have become obsessed with Ross's posts ! By the way what is wrong with having an obsession with the word "God" ? I suppose Ross could be like a lot of people who have an obsession with what "Uncle so and so said"......! Or we heard at convention
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2015 5:54:14 GMT -5
Fixit RB has got the word 'confusion' on his brain the last few hours '2x2s confusion this', '2x2s confusion that'. Anyway He doesn't know the meaning of the word confusion! He needs to read media reports about the Anglican synod, Aussie, UK, where ever. One group pro gay marriage, another group against it. One group pro woman bishops, another group against it. Then there will be some finance thing come up, then some property thing. But God the son,God the Holy Spirit, trinity etc is on their lips. Review would that be like the confusion of Clyde Mackay who re-baptised an ex -worker who was jailed for CSA ? (That has no apologised to his victims)
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2015 6:03:41 GMT -5
Here is another for you Review ! JACKIE MEEKS Jesus had a sinful nature and the potential is there for us to overcome our flesh if we walk in His Way. He learned obedience through suffering, We can do the same. Obedience resulted in Jesus being made perfect. Our salvation results in obedience to the Father. [Post Falls Convention 1972] Quotations By Workers P. 8, 15 Maryhig, what do you believe the worker is saying here "Jesus had a sinful nature and the potential is there for us to overcome our flesh if we walk in His Way" ? We will never be perfect, we all sin so the idea that we have the potential to overcome our flesh if we walk in His Way means what ?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 21, 2015 6:11:14 GMT -5
Do you have and axe to grind,Jesse? Do you? Does Ross?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 21, 2015 6:14:25 GMT -5
Do you have bread and wine in meetings, fixit? Why as it is a Catholic tradition. Also you had better not believe in the Virgin birth either as it came from the Catholics. Wow.
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Post by maryhig on Apr 21, 2015 6:18:11 GMT -5
Here is another for you Review ! JACKIE MEEKS Jesus had a sinful nature and the potential is there for us to overcome our flesh if we walk in His Way. He learned obedience through suffering, We can do the same. Obedience resulted in Jesus being made perfect. Our salvation results in obedience to the Father. [Post Falls Convention 1972] Quotations By Workers P. 8, 15 Maryhig, what do you believe the worker is saying here "Jesus had a sinful nature and the potential is there for us to overcome our flesh if we walk in His Way" ? We will never be perfect, we all sin so the idea that we have the potential to overcome our flesh if we walk in His Way means what ? No I don't mean that so all, I mean Jesus felt everything we do and never sinned, and with him in our hearts he can help us overcome the world! Do you believe in Jesus' words? Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. We can't do this without Christ in our hearts because he's overcome the world, he's perfect and he will bring us to the father through his perfection cleaning our hearts with his light when we see him. That's what I mean! Ps read the last sentence of Jesus' words in those verses above! We need to put on the new man which is Christ in the heart! Because he has overcome! And he'll help us to overcome too. Jesus said, have no fear for I have overcome the world! He tells us in the book of revelation we must do this!
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2015 6:33:15 GMT -5
Do you have and axe to grind,Jesse? Do you? Does Ross? Does Review ?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 21, 2015 7:05:25 GMT -5
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Post by fred on Apr 21, 2015 7:19:10 GMT -5
Do you have and axe to grind,Jesse? Do you? Does Ross? We all have opinions, usually formed by prior experiences whatever they might be. We should all be able to discuss these opinions without resorting to 'emotive reasoning'.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 7:58:59 GMT -5
And now let us sing a Hymn : Stand up stand up for Jesus ye soldiers of the cross. Can anyone add the YouTube link?
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Post by xna on Apr 21, 2015 8:24:18 GMT -5
And now let us sing a Hymn : Stand up stand up for Jesus ye soldiers of the cross. Can anyone add the YouTube link? The war song? Stand up, stand up for Jesus! ye soldiers of the cross; Lift high His royal banner, it must not suffer loss: From vict’ry unto vict’ry, His army shall He lead, Till every foe is vanquished, and Christ is Lord indeed. ... www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDU6JQV5_O8
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 10:49:56 GMT -5
And now let us sing a Hymn : Stand up stand up for Jesus ye soldiers of the cross. Can anyone add the YouTube link? The war song? Stand up, stand up for Jesus! ye soldiers of the cross; Lift high His royal banner, it must not suffer loss: From vict’ry unto vict’ry, His army shall He lead, Till every foe is vanquished, and Christ is Lord indeed. ... www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDU6JQV5_O8Thanks you, that's the one, a hymn/song of inspiration more so than one of war, even though it looks like some sort of a battle going on here, even if it is a battle of wits.
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Post by snow on Apr 21, 2015 11:08:15 GMT -5
Do you have bread and wine in meetings, fixit? Why as it is a Catholic tradition. Also you had better not believe in the Virgin birth either as it came from the Catholics. You think we shouldn't believe in the Trinity because Catholics do but you believe in plenty of Catholic teachings but that is ok? Do you also believe that Jesus was born out of Mary's side so that they can claim she was a perpetual virgin? Do you believe in infant baptism? Do you believe when you are partaking of the wine that is really Jesus blood and when the bread is Jesus flesh? Transubstantiation? There are lots of things the Catholics added to the Christian doctrine and they did it after the gospels were written actually. Those who believe in the Trinity need to do some actual historical research and not just reading what Trinity apologists have written either. The doctrine of the Trinity caused a lot of blood to flow for many years because the two sides fought over that issue long and hard and they killed because of it. Those who opposed the Trinity were just as adamant that it was heresy when the belief started. Contrary to what people here believe, the Trinity dogma was not always there. It would have never survived either if it wasn't for Emperor Constantine supporting it. When you have the Roman army behind you it's pretty easy to squash any dissenters. Read history, not apologists and you will see this is true.
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Post by Mary on Apr 21, 2015 11:30:06 GMT -5
The Bible says Jesus was God with us. The Father called the Son God. Thomas called Jesus God. Was the Father Catholic? Was God Catholic? What I was pointing out was that because a person believes something in the Bible it does not make them Catholic if the Catholic's believe something similar and that those in meetings do plenty of things that are Catholic, does that mean they believe Mary was born of a virgin too? Protestants believe in the Trinity in as far as Jesus was God in the flesh and that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Given that the majority of Protestants believe in the Trinity it was those who got burned at the stake. Those who believed in the Trinity got burned at the stake.
The Workers seem pretty confused. Some workers believe that Jesus was God, some don't. Most of the early workers apparently did while most today do not when I was taught the Way of God never changes.
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Post by Mary on Apr 21, 2015 11:40:49 GMT -5
Seemed that some of the workers were burned at the stake i.e. kicked out, for preaching it.
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Post by penguin on Apr 21, 2015 11:42:11 GMT -5
The Bible says Jesus was God with us. The Father called the Son God. Thomas called Jesus God. Was the Father Catholic? Was God Catholic? What I was pointing out was that because a person believes something in the Bible it does not make them Catholic if the Catholic's believe something similar and that those in meetings do plenty of things that are Catholic, does that mean they believe Mary was born of a virgin too? Protestants believe in the Trinity in as far as Jesus was God in the flesh and that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Given that the majority of Protestants believe in the Trinity it was those who got burned at the stake. Those who believed in the Trinity got burned at the stake. The Workers seem pretty confused. Some workers believe that Jesus was God, some don't. Most of the early workers apparently did while most today do not when I was taught the Way of God never changes. A quick look at John 14.28 might just be helpful here. "for my Father is greater than I". That was Jesus Himself speaking. Everything always makes more sense in that context.
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