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Post by fixit on May 22, 2015 19:12:23 GMT -5
Definitely what I was told when I quit professing. You won't go to heaven if you don't profess. Everyone knows that. Those who deny it really do have their heads in the sand. Not saying they might not believe it's true that people can be saved without professing, but they are in denial if they say that's not what the group think/worker think is on the subject. Are you saying our resident TMB worker has his head in the sand? I have one good friend, good man, open minded liberal man who understands our church is not perfect. He does not think our church is 'The Truth' and 'we are the only ones going to heaven'.
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Post by withlove on May 22, 2015 23:02:22 GMT -5
Thanks for your response. Do you think we will be completely without physical form and rule the earth only as invisible spirits? I think if there is such a thing as an afterlife, we will definitely not be in physical form and it will definitely not be on earth. Earth is not going to be here forever, it's sun will die, it could be hit and destroyed at anytime. Doesn't make any sense that we would be here for eternity knowing that does it? No, I agree with you about the earth. There is supposed to be a "1000" year reign here and then it is destroyed--correct me someone if that is not what is written. I have no idea about our bodies really but it's mind-blowing to think of us interacting silently and invisibly...
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 23:38:56 GMT -5
I think if there is such a thing as an afterlife, we will definitely not be in physical form and it will definitely not be on earth. Earth is not going to be here forever, it's sun will die, it could be hit and destroyed at anytime. Doesn't make any sense that we would be here for eternity knowing that does it? No, I agree with you about the earth. There is supposed to be a "1000" year reign here and then it is destroyed--correct me someone if that is not what is written. I have no idea about our bodies really but it's mind-blowing to think of us interacting silently and invisibly... there is a debate that's ongoing in some places that the earth will just be renewed instead of destroyed...I don't believe that myself
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Post by withlove on May 22, 2015 23:58:10 GMT -5
No, I agree with you about the earth. There is supposed to be a "1000" year reign here and then it is destroyed--correct me someone if that is not what is written. I have no idea about our bodies really but it's mind-blowing to think of us interacting silently and invisibly... there is a debate that's ongoing in some places that the earth will just be renewed instead of destroyed...I don't believe that myself Oh okay. Wonder why there is a debate...if it's a perfect earth, why does it matter if it's recycled or new?
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Post by maryhig on May 23, 2015 0:06:17 GMT -5
This should be happening now, it's called the new birth! Where Jesus sends the spirit of God onto the heart and we become anew! Our old lives have passed away and we are new. Thus a different person is created. Gone is hardness, bitterness, spitefulness, greed, the love of money, lust, fornication, etc.etc. gone is the old flesh. Replaced by the covering of Christ, love, gentleness, giving. Forgiveness, faithfulness. Grateful for everyday and the blessings God has blessed you with through love of God in the heart. This is death to self and the new birth! When Christ enters the heart with Gods holy spirit it's the end of your world, the end of the worldy life. You enter into Gods kingdom here on earth through the spirit not the flesh because the flesh should be dead and buried and a new life is flourishing in you through the holy spirit, and if this is so, you will be showing the works of God through your life. Because your life should be following Jesus. And you should be a picture of him to others. Helping, guiding, loving, bringing the lost sheep home to the father. The deciples caught no fish until the listened to the instructions of Jesus. And we will catch no man unless we listen to the instructions of Gods spirit through Christ on the heart, and put off our old man, and put in the new. Which is the life of Jesus Chris our lord the son of our holy father. The only one God almighty! Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Thanks for your response. Do you think we will be completely without physical form and rule the earth only as invisible spirits? I don't think we will be back on this earth in our bodies at all. God is spirit, and when we die our spirit leaves our body and goes back to him. I believe we're here for a reason. Were being tested. And one day we'll find out why. But we need to listen to Gods spirit in the heart whilst we're here! And follow the life of Jesus! Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. And Jesus said, John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. (The way is to believe in and follow the life of Jesus) Jesus said to the thief on cross "today you will be with me in paradise" if heaven is paradise and we go to heaven, why would we come back here? Jesus also said John 20:17 I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. If God is our father also, then we go to heaven. The world and flesh are corrupt, the only place that can have heaven here on earth is in our hearts, when Christ enters in with Gods holy spirit and helps us overcome Satan. We need to listen to our conscience. Obey the spirit in the heart. Do what's right by God in this life by following the life of Jesus. Then when we die, we we go back to our father in heaven.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 23, 2015 0:16:28 GMT -5
even though they deny him they are still mimicking his commandments/ways... Oh good grief! Humans have slowly figured out the best ways to get along as a cohesive unit and survive, long before there was any thought of the Christian God. He was just a twinkle in the universe's eye.
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Post by maryhig on May 23, 2015 0:18:23 GMT -5
This should be happening now, it's called the new birth! Where Jesus sends the spirit of God onto the heart and we become anew! Our old lives have passed away and we are new. Thus a different person is created. Gone is hardness, bitterness, spitefulness, greed, the love of money, lust, fornication, etc.etc. gone is the old flesh. Replaced by the covering of Christ, love, gentleness, giving. Forgiveness, faithfulness. Grateful for everyday and the blessings God has blessed you with through love of God in the heart. This is death to self and the new birth! When Christ enters the heart with Gods holy spirit it's the end of your world, the end of the worldy life. You enter into Gods kingdom here on earth through the spirit not the flesh because the flesh should be dead and buried and a new life is flourishing in you through the holy spirit, and if this is so, you will be showing the works of God through your life. Because your life should be following Jesus. And you should be a picture of him to others. Helping, guiding, loving, bringing the lost sheep home to the father. The deciples caught no fish until the listened to the instructions of Jesus. And we will catch no man unless we listen to the instructions of Gods spirit through Christ on the heart, and put off our old man, and put in the new. Which is the life of Jesus Chris our lord the son of our holy father. The only one God almighty! Maryhig, Could you describe what you mean by "worldly life?"As for as, "hardness, bitterness, spitefulness, greed, the love of money, lust, fornication; I know many people who don't have any of things in their life NOW and they don't believe in ANY Supernatural Being called a god.
They are atheists. Do you have any explanation why this is so?Worldly life is listening to the flesh, and doing anything that goes against the will of God! Listening to Satan when being tempted. And not fighting sin in the heart! Being overcome by the world instead of letting Christ and God's holy spirit into our hearts to help us overcome sin within!
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Post by dmmichgood on May 23, 2015 0:27:34 GMT -5
Maryhig, Could you describe what you mean by "worldly life?"As for as, "hardness, bitterness, spitefulness, greed, the love of money, lust, fornication; I know many people who don't have any of things in their life NOW and they don't believe in ANY Supernatural Being called a god.
They are atheists. Do you have any explanation why this is so? Worldly life is listening to the flesh, and doing anything that goes against the will of God! Listening to Satan when being tempted. And not fighting sin in the heart! Being overcome by the world instead of letting Christ and God's holy spirit into our hearts to help us overcome sin within! Maryhig, These are all just the usual "pat" answers & do NOT explain anything!
It is just the usual "circular reasoning" again!
Did you google "logical fallacies" like I suggested?
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Post by maryhig on May 23, 2015 0:42:28 GMT -5
Worldly life is listening to the flesh, and doing anything that goes against the will of God! Listening to Satan when being tempted. And not fighting sin in the heart! Being overcome by the world instead of letting Christ and God's holy spirit into our hearts to help us overcome sin within! Maryhig, These are all just the usual "pat" answers & do NOT explain anything!
It is just the usual "circular reasoning" again!
Did you google "logical fallacies" like I suggested?
At least your getting to know me, and know that I have to google half the things some people on here write Yes I have, It may well be error of reasoning to you, but I know God is real, and the bible is written by his people, and I believe his word! I haven't just seen God through the written word in the bible. But I've seen, heard and felt him in my heart and seen him in others! I know he's there! I have had proof and I don't doubt him whatsoever!
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Post by withlove on May 23, 2015 0:47:53 GMT -5
Thanks for your response. Do you think we will be completely without physical form and rule the earth only as invisible spirits? I don't think we will be back on this earth in our bodies at all. God is spirit, and when we die our spirit leaves our body and goes back to him. I believe we're here for a reason. Were being tested. And one day we'll find out why. But we need to listen to Gods spirit in the heart whilst we're here! And follow the life of Jesus! Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. And Jesus said, John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. (The way is to believe in and follow the life of Jesus) Jesus said to the thief on cross "today you will be with me in paradise" if heaven is paradise and we go to heaven, why would we come back here? Jesus also said John 20:17 I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. If God is our father also, then we go to heaven. The world and flesh are corrupt, the only place that can have heaven here on earth is in our hearts, when Christ enters in with Gods holy spirit and helps us overcome Satan. We need to listen to our conscience. Obey the spirit in the heart. Do what's right by God in this life by following the life of Jesus. Then when we die, we we go back to our father in heaven. We were taught in meetings that the reign would be a literal one on earth with the saved being the government. I am open to learning what Revelation means if it is a bunch of metaphors though.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 0:49:16 GMT -5
Maryhig, These are all just the usual "pat" answers & do NOT explain anything!
It is just the usual "circular reasoning" again!
Did you google "logical fallacies" like I suggested?
At least your getting to know me, and know that I have to google half the things some people on here write Yes I have, It may well be error of reasoning to you, but I know God is real, and the bible is written by his people, and I believe his word! I haven't just seen God through the written word in the bible. But I've seen, heard and felt him in my heart and seen him in others! I know he's there! I have had proof and I don't doubt him whatsoever! amen
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 0:54:15 GMT -5
I don't think we will be back on this earth in our bodies at all. God is spirit, and when we die our spirit leaves our body and goes back to him. I believe we're here for a reason. Were being tested. And one day we'll find out why. But we need to listen to Gods spirit in the heart whilst we're here! And follow the life of Jesus! Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. And Jesus said, John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. (The way is to believe in and follow the life of Jesus) Jesus said to the thief on cross "today you will be with me in paradise" if heaven is paradise and we go to heaven, why would we come back here? Jesus also said John 20:17 I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. If God is our father also, then we go to heaven. The world and flesh are corrupt, the only place that can have heaven here on earth is in our hearts, when Christ enters in with Gods holy spirit and helps us overcome Satan. We need to listen to our conscience. Obey the spirit in the heart. Do what's right by God in this life by following the life of Jesus. Then when we die, we we go back to our father in heaven. We were taught in meetings that the reign would be a literal one on earth with the saved being the government. I am open to learning what Revelation means if it is a bunch of metaphors though. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
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Post by withlove on May 23, 2015 1:01:49 GMT -5
We were taught in meetings that the reign would be a literal one on earth with the saved being the government. I am open to learning what Revelation means if it is a bunch of metaphors though. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Ohh. Does that mean that only the beheaded will be ruling? The first resurrection...does that include the living Christians or only the dead?
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Post by maryhig on May 23, 2015 1:21:16 GMT -5
I don't think we will be back on this earth in our bodies at all. God is spirit, and when we die our spirit leaves our body and goes back to him. I believe we're here for a reason. Were being tested. And one day we'll find out why. But we need to listen to Gods spirit in the heart whilst we're here! And follow the life of Jesus! Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. And Jesus said, John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. (The way is to believe in and follow the life of Jesus) Jesus said to the thief on cross "today you will be with me in paradise" if heaven is paradise and we go to heaven, why would we come back here? Jesus also said John 20:17 I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. If God is our father also, then we go to heaven. The world and flesh are corrupt, the only place that can have heaven here on earth is in our hearts, when Christ enters in with Gods holy spirit and helps us overcome Satan. We need to listen to our conscience. Obey the spirit in the heart. Do what's right by God in this life by following the life of Jesus. Then when we die, we we go back to our father in heaven. We were taught in meetings that the reign would be a literal one on earth with the saved being the government. I am open to learning what Revelation means if it is a bunch of metaphors though. I've never heard that before! I believe the resurrection is now, when Christ rises in our hearts with us, and give us a new being, because our old life goes once we follow him. And it's like a new birth! Were born again. Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. I believe that we are to follow Jesus, and let God into our hearts whilst we're here. And if we do, and live the life he's taught us to live, then sin will be leaving our hearts, Christ will cast it out. The more we follow him, and deny the flesh, the stronger in God we become, and the more God can use us to help bring others to him! Then when we leave this body, I believe we become ministering spirits. The more we deny Satan in this world the stronger we will be in God in the next. Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? Luke 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last. But to be honest, I don't think about what will happen to me what I die, I leave that in Gods hands. I want to get my heart right here and now. By letting Christ and Gods holy spirit in, and letting them do there work, helping me cast sin out. So I can show others the way to God. I don't care about myself, of what happens to me. In more worried about everyone else around me. I want them to feel what I've Got. And bring them to God, so they can feel this immense love and peace that I have within and to see him for themselves!
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Post by maryhig on May 23, 2015 1:39:58 GMT -5
We were taught in meetings that the reign would be a literal one on earth with the saved being the government. I am open to learning what Revelation means if it is a bunch of metaphors though. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. The first resurrection is here and now, and once Christ had risen in our hearts, Satan (death) has no power over you! Christ gives you the strength to overcome Satan in the heart! Also, Gods time is not our time! 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The following is about death to self, so Christ can be resurrected within your heart Philippians 3 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. But anyway, it's important to let Christ in now keep our faith and please God here, and God will decide what happens to us when we die!
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Post by dmmichgood on May 23, 2015 2:26:09 GMT -5
Maryhig, These are all just the usual "pat" answers & do NOT explain anything!
It is just the usual "circular reasoning" again!
Did you google "logical fallacies" like I suggested?
At least your getting to know me, and know that I have to google half the things some people on here write Yes I have, It may well be error of reasoning to you, but I know God is real, and the bible is written by his people, and I believe his word! I haven't just seen God through the written word in the bible. But I've seen, heard and felt him in my heart and seen him in others! I know he's there! I have had proof and I don't doubt him whatsoever! Maryhig, I'm glad that you checked out that site.
Let's take this statement. (the same kind of way you made your own statement)
"I know Krishna is the supreme deity and is real, and the Bhagavad Gita is written by his people, and I believe his word! I haven't just seen Krishna through the written word in the Bhagavad Gita. But I've seen, heard and felt Krishna in my heart and seen Krishna in others! I know Krishna is there! I have had proof and I don't doubt Krishna whatsoever! "
Do you believe that the way the person is making such a statement proves to you or anyone else that it is true? Should anyone who makes such a statement expect you, me or anyone else, that what they are claiming is true, -that Krishna is indeed "real?"
Would consider that "way of stating something" to be a "reasonable" or is it "circular reasoning?"
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Post by maryhig on May 23, 2015 2:35:50 GMT -5
At least your getting to know me, and know that I have to google half the things some people on here write Yes I have, It may well be error of reasoning to you, but I know God is real, and the bible is written by his people, and I believe his word! I haven't just seen God through the written word in the bible. But I've seen, heard and felt him in my heart and seen him in others! I know he's there! I have had proof and I don't doubt him whatsoever! Maryhig, I'm glad that you checked out that site.
Let's take this statement. (the same kind of way you made your own statement)
"I know Krishna is the supreme deity and is real, and the Bhagavad Gita is written by his people, and I believe his word! I haven't just seen Krishna through the written word in the Bhagavad Gita. But I've seen, heard and felt Krishna in my heart and seen Krishna in others! I know Krishna is there! I have had proof and I don't doubt Krishna whatsoever! "
Do you believe that the way the person is making such a statement proves to you or anyone else that it is true? Should anyone who makes such a statement expect you, me or anyone else, that what they are claiming is true, -that Krishna is indeed "real?"
Would consider that "way of stating something" to be a "reasonable" or is it "circular reasoning?"
I don't need to reason with anything, because what I have experienced and felt is real! I can't prove it to you. Because you have to experience it for yourself! I also believe God has people everywhere. And Jesus came to show us how to live. I can't judge others. I'm not here for that. I just have to believe, follow him and live it out! Only God knows the heart of all people in all religions whatever they believe in. I just know what I have is real!
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Post by dmmichgood on May 23, 2015 3:20:48 GMT -5
Maryhig, I'm glad that you checked out that site.
Let's take this statement. (the same kind of way you made your own statement)
"I know Krishna is the supreme deity and is real, and the Bhagavad Gita is written by his people, and I believe his word! I haven't just seen Krishna through the written word in the Bhagavad Gita. But I've seen, heard and felt Krishna in my heart and seen Krishna in others! I know Krishna is there! I have had proof and I don't doubt Krishna whatsoever! "
Do you believe that the way the person is making such a statement proves to you or anyone else that it is true? Should anyone who makes such a statement expect you, me or anyone else, that what they are claiming is true, -that Krishna is indeed "real?"
Would consider that "way of stating something" to be a "reasonable" or is it "circular reasoning?"
I don't need to reason with anything, because what I have experienced and felt is real! I can't prove it to you . Because you have to experience it for yourself! I also believe God has people everywhere. And Jesus came to show us how to live. I can't judge others. I'm not here for that. I just have to believe, follow him and live it out! Only God knows the heart of all people in all religions whatever they believe in. I just know what I have is real! maryhig, None of your above reply indicates that you understood what I was saying.
True, I have a hard time expressing it.
The point of my post is the WAY suppositions are made and stated and whether they make any kind of argument that one can look at it & say that is a "reasonable" explanation; an explanation that a person could look at & say,
"Yes, that statement is rational, that makes sense, perhaps it is true"
The rationale; -a set of reasons for that belief that has a logical basis, that make sense, therefore, it might motivate someone to believe that what that person has stated might well be true.
A circular reasoning, "I believe something because it says so in a certain book isn't tangible evidence for anyone to be persuaded of it's veracity.
But of course if you aren't concerned whether people believe you or not, it doesn't matter.
However, I thought that you stated somewhere that although you don't have ministers, that each one in your church does talk about what you believe to people that you meet in everyday life.
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Post by maryhig on May 23, 2015 3:43:25 GMT -5
I don't need to reason with anything, because what I have experienced and felt is real! I can't prove it to you . Because you have to experience it for yourself! I also believe God has people everywhere. And Jesus came to show us how to live. I can't judge others. I'm not here for that. I just have to believe, follow him and live it out! Only God knows the heart of all people in all religions whatever they believe in. I just know what I have is real! maryhig, None of your above reply indicates that you understood what I was saying.
True, I have a hard time expressing it.
The point of my post is the WAY suppositions are made and stated and whether they make any kind of argument that one can look at it & say that is a "reasonable" explanation; an explanation that a person could look at & say,
"Yes, that statement is rational, that makes sense, perhaps it is true"
The rationale; -a set of reasons for that belief that has a logical basis, that make sense, therefore, it might motivate someone to believe that what that person has stated might well be true.
A circular reasoning, "I believe something because it says so in a certain book isn't tangible evidence for anyone to be persuaded of it's veracity.
But of course if you aren't concerned whether people believe you or not, it doesn't matter.
However, I thought that you stated somewhere that although you don't have ministers, that each one in your church does talk about what you believe to people that you meet in everyday life.
I do understand what you are saying, but how are you going to understand me when you don't believe in God? I listen to me heart not my head. And to be honest it's worked well in my life so far! How will you know what I mean? You once asked me what I mean by the heart? Yet I listen to the spirit in my heart daily! How can I explain that to you or anyone else who doesn't believe in God? I feel that every true believing person on here will know what I mean when I say that I've felt God within me, because they will have too. Logic doesn't come into it. You don't see God with your mind, see him with your heart. You see him in people, in scriptures, in nature, in all that he has created. You see him everywhere! Because you love him! My father in law passed away 2 weeks ago, and I loved him very much, I've been with my mother in law constantly. The other day my husband and I were on our way to his mums house and she buys long life milk in bulk. And I said "your mum must be running our of milk by now" because we had so many visitors and we were constantly making tea! My husband said oh yes she asked me to pick some up, I forgot! And I thought that I only realised what she needed because I've been with her all the time, and because I was helping her. If I hadn't of been there, I wouldn't have had a clue what she wanted me to do. Then I thought of God, we need to be there for him and walk with him, so he can show us in our hearts what he wants us to do. And he can guide us. The closer we are to him, the more we'll see what he wants from us. But it works both ways. Because we were there with my husbands mum and so close to her, it was him that got a gold ring that was passed down through his family. And I thought this is like the holy spirit. God will bless us and pass on something that is more priceless than anything this world can give. He gives us his heart, through his son from generation to generation! I don't see things like you do DMG, I see God from my heart not my mind, and I see him in and through everything he has created. And I have complete faith in him!
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Post by snow on May 23, 2015 10:50:06 GMT -5
Definitely what I was told when I quit professing. You won't go to heaven if you don't profess. Everyone knows that. Those who deny it really do have their heads in the sand. Not saying they might not believe it's true that people can be saved without professing, but they are in denial if they say that's not what the group think/worker think is on the subject. Are you saying our resident TMB worker has his head in the sand? I have one good friend, good man, open minded liberal man who understands our church is not perfect. He does not think our church is 'The Truth' and 'we are the only ones going to heaven'. I am sure there are many who don't think it, so Review005 is likely telling the truth. As a group though I think the opposite was true when I left.
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Post by snow on May 23, 2015 10:53:32 GMT -5
I don't think we will be back on this earth in our bodies at all. God is spirit, and when we die our spirit leaves our body and goes back to him. I believe we're here for a reason. Were being tested. And one day we'll find out why. But we need to listen to Gods spirit in the heart whilst we're here! And follow the life of Jesus! Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. And Jesus said, John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. (The way is to believe in and follow the life of Jesus) Jesus said to the thief on cross "today you will be with me in paradise" if heaven is paradise and we go to heaven, why would we come back here? Jesus also said John 20:17 I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. If God is our father also, then we go to heaven. The world and flesh are corrupt, the only place that can have heaven here on earth is in our hearts, when Christ enters in with Gods holy spirit and helps us overcome Satan. We need to listen to our conscience. Obey the spirit in the heart. Do what's right by God in this life by following the life of Jesus. Then when we die, we we go back to our father in heaven. We were taught in meetings that the reign would be a literal one on earth with the saved being the government. I am open to learning what Revelation means if it is a bunch of metaphors though. Well if fundamentalist Christians like the guy in the blog I posted are the ruling elite, it will be hell on earth for sure! Maryhig's metaphor philosophy is looking a bit more hopeful...
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Post by snow on May 23, 2015 10:55:56 GMT -5
At least your getting to know me, and know that I have to google half the things some people on here write Yes I have, It may well be error of reasoning to you, but I know God is real, and the bible is written by his people, and I believe his word! I haven't just seen God through the written word in the bible. But I've seen, heard and felt him in my heart and seen him in others! I know he's there! I have had proof and I don't doubt him whatsoever! Maryhig, I'm glad that you checked out that site.
Let's take this statement. (the same kind of way you made your own statement)
"I know Krishna is the supreme deity and is real, and the Bhagavad Gita is written by his people, and I believe his word! I haven't just seen Krishna through the written word in the Bhagavad Gita. But I've seen, heard and felt Krishna in my heart and seen Krishna in others! I know Krishna is there! I have had proof and I don't doubt Krishna whatsoever! "
Do you believe that the way the person is making such a statement proves to you or anyone else that it is true? Should anyone who makes such a statement expect you, me or anyone else, that what they are claiming is true, -that Krishna is indeed "real?"
Would consider that "way of stating something" to be a "reasonable" or is it "circular reasoning?"
Well of course Krishna is true.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 23, 2015 14:08:24 GMT -5
In following the above discussion I am reminded of a line or two from Kipling.
Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
In fact if Dm and Mary stood back to back and one travelled to the east and the other to the west they would meet. It didn't suit Kipling to say that but they would surely meet. Dm, you believe with your mind that there is no God so therefore you are right. Mary, you believe with your heart that there is a God so therefore you are right.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 23, 2015 18:46:15 GMT -5
maryhig, None of your above reply indicates that you understood what I was saying.
True, I have a hard time expressing it.
The point of my post is the WAY suppositions are made and stated and whether they make any kind of argument that one can look at it & say that is a "reasonable" explanation; an explanation that a person could look at & say,
"Yes, that statement is rational, that makes sense, perhaps it is true"
The rationale; -a set of reasons for that belief that has a logical basis, that make sense, therefore, it might motivate someone to believe that what that person has stated might well be true.
A circular reasoning, "I believe something because it says so in a certain book isn't tangible evidence for anyone to be persuaded of it's veracity.
But of course if you aren't concerned whether people believe you or not, it doesn't matter.
However, I thought that you stated somewhere that although you don't have ministers, that each one in your church does talk about what you believe to people that you meet in everyday life.
I do understand what you are saying, but how are you going to understand me when you don't believe in God?I listen to me heart not my head. And to be honest it's worked well in my life so far! How will you know what I mean? You once asked me what I mean by the heart? Yet I listen to the spirit in my heart daily! How can I explain that to you or anyone else who doesn't believe in God? I feel that every true believing person on here will know what I mean when I say that I've felt God within me, because they will have too. Logic doesn't come into it. You don't see God with your mind, see him with your heart. You see him in people, in scriptures, in nature, in all that he has created. You see him everywhere! Because you love him! My father in law passed away 2 weeks ago, and I loved him very much, I've been with my mother in law constantly. The other day my husband and I were on our way to his mums house and she buys long life milk in bulk. And I said "your mum must be running our of milk by now" because we had so many visitors and we were constantly making tea! My husband said oh yes she asked me to pick some up, I forgot! And I thought that I only realised what she needed because I've been with her all the time, and because I was helping her. If I hadn't of been there, I wouldn't have had a clue what she wanted me to do. Then I thought of God, we need to be there for him and walk with him, so he can show us in our hearts what he wants us to do. And he can guide us. The closer we are to him, the more we'll see what he wants from us. But it works both ways. Because we were there with my husbands mum and so close to her, it was him that got a gold ring that was passed down through his family. And I thought this is like the holy spirit. God will bless us and pass on something that is more priceless than anything this world can give. He gives us his heart, through his son from generation to generation! I don't see things like you do DMG, I see God from my heart not my mind, and I see him in and through everything he has created. And I have complete faith in him!I wonder Maryhig,
No, I DON'T think that you do understand what I am saying! I also DON'T think you understand what "logical fallacies" means.
You ask me, "how are you going to understand me when you don't believe in God? "
Hasn't it occurred to you that I once DID also believe in "God?" That I ALSO saw him with my "heart." That I, too, listened to "the spirit" daily! I've ALSO felt "God" within me, !
It was through those examples of "circular reasoning" & other "logical fallacies," that I begin to understand how that kind of thought, -that kind of "reasoning," -did NOT make any sense at all and was no proof what-so-ever for what I was believing.
The whole thing had been created solely within my "MIND" and had absolutely nothing to do with my "heart!"
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Post by maryhig on May 23, 2015 20:46:40 GMT -5
I do understand what you are saying, but how are you going to understand me when you don't believe in God?I listen to me heart not my head. And to be honest it's worked well in my life so far! How will you know what I mean? You once asked me what I mean by the heart? Yet I listen to the spirit in my heart daily! How can I explain that to you or anyone else who doesn't believe in God? I feel that every true believing person on here will know what I mean when I say that I've felt God within me, because they will have too. Logic doesn't come into it. You don't see God with your mind, see him with your heart. You see him in people, in scriptures, in nature, in all that he has created. You see him everywhere! Because you love him! My father in law passed away 2 weeks ago, and I loved him very much, I've been with my mother in law constantly. The other day my husband and I were on our way to his mums house and she buys long life milk in bulk. And I said "your mum must be running our of milk by now" because we had so many visitors and we were constantly making tea! My husband said oh yes she asked me to pick some up, I forgot! And I thought that I only realised what she needed because I've been with her all the time, and because I was helping her. If I hadn't of been there, I wouldn't have had a clue what she wanted me to do. Then I thought of God, we need to be there for him and walk with him, so he can show us in our hearts what he wants us to do. And he can guide us. The closer we are to him, the more we'll see what he wants from us. But it works both ways. Because we were there with my husbands mum and so close to her, it was him that got a gold ring that was passed down through his family. And I thought this is like the holy spirit. God will bless us and pass on something that is more priceless than anything this world can give. He gives us his heart, through his son from generation to generation! I don't see things like you do DMG, I see God from my heart not my mind, and I see him in and through everything he has created. And I have complete faith in him!I wonder Maryhig,
No, I DON'T think that you do understand what I am saying! I also DON'T think you understand what "logical fallacies" means.
You ask me, "how are you going to understand me when you don't believe in God? "
Hasn't it occurred to you that I once DID also believe in "God?" That I ALSO saw him with my "heart." That I, too, listened to "the spirit" daily! I've ALSO felt "God" within me, !
It was through those examples of "circular reasoning" & other "logical fallacies," that I begin to understand how that kind of thought, -that kind of "reasoning," -did NOT make any sense at all and was no proof what-so-ever for what I was believing.
The whole thing had been created solely within my "MIND" and had absolutely nothing to do with my "heart!"
if you had seen the things I've seen then you would believe. Why do you think you're so right and I am wrong. Why don't you believe that I have had things happen in my life that I can't deny and that I know he's there. I've had infallible proof! If you don't believe in God, fair enough. But I do! It's not all in my mind, and I'm not letting my mind make me think he's there. I've told you, the things that have happened to me are impossible for me to just make up! They involve other people! One is that my husband and I had a question, and we didn't know the answer, I pondered and asked God in my heart, this is when I first started to read the bible. I didn't understand any of it. And I didn't hardly read then, especially the old testament. I had a dream. And a man's voice told me where to look in the bible. I woke my husband up and told him the dream. We opened the bible, and there it was! The answer and much more to help me! And that's only one thing. Lots has happened to me, I don't lie, and I don't do make believe. The day my father in law died, it came to me that my husband should ring his mum and dad, I told him, but we were eating and he said he would in a bit. I got my daughter to pass me the phone and told him to ring. He said that we will pop down and visit them after we've had food. He died within the hour! We got a call from his mums neighbour about an hour later! Look at it this way, when we die, if I'm wrong, so be it. ( but I know he's there) But, of you're wrong, you will step out of your body and meet him! I've got no doubt whatsoever, I'm very strong in faith. I don't care about circular reasoning and logical fallacies, I've never heard of them before I came on here. And to be honest, I'm not interested in them, I've got no time to waste on stuff like that! I've managed for nearly 50 years without them! Nothing will change my mind, because I've proved him, I've seen, heard and felt him in my heart! Why can't you accept that I believe in him? Also associating fallacies with God is as nonsense to me as my belief in God is to you!
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Post by dmmichgood on May 24, 2015 0:56:17 GMT -5
Maryhig,
No, I DON'T think that you do understand what I am saying! I also DON'T think you understand what "logical fallacies" means.
You ask me, "how are you going to understand me when you don't believe in God? "
Hasn't it occurred to you that I once DID also believe in "God?" That I ALSO saw him with my "heart." That I, too, listened to "the spirit" daily! I've ALSO felt "God" within me, !
It was through those examples of "circular reasoning" & other "logical fallacies," that I begin to understand how that kind of thought, -that kind of "reasoning," -did NOT make any sense at all and was no proof what-so-ever for what I was believing.
The whole thing had been created solely within my "MIND" and had absolutely nothing to do with my "heart!"
if you had seen the things I've seen then you would believe. Why do you think you're so right and I am wrong. Why don't you believe that I have had things happen in my life that I can't deny and that I know he's there. I've had infallible proof!If you don't believe in God, fair enough. But I do! It's not all in my mind, and I'm not letting my mind make me think he's there. I've told you, the things that have happened to me are i mpossible for me to just make up! They involve other people! The day my father in law died, it came to me that my husband should ring his mum and dad, I told him, but we were eating and he said he would in a bit. I got my daughter to pass me the phone and told him to ring. He said that we will pop down and visit them after we've had food. He died within the hour! We got a call from his mums neighbour about an hour later! First of all, Maryhig, I am NOT saying that you "lie" of "make things up."
Second, you make a flat out statement that; "if you had seen the things I've seen then you would believe." How can you say such a flat out statement about me? Don't you think that I & others have had similar experiences?
You cite the death of your father-in-law; here is MY experience. Here is MY experience.
One Wed. night during meeting in my father-in- law's home the phone ring. Now I don't know about your meetings but in ours yous simple don't talk on the phone during a meeting. So, the phone was just ignored and let ring until it stopped. I felt uneasy and edged closer to the phone and vowed to myself if it rang again, I was going to answer it.
It rang again. I answered. It was my sister-in-law in tears and said my father had died. I answered, "Yes, I know."
Now, I personally believe that experience of mine was even more conclusive an experience than your own! However, Did I take that experience as infallible proof that God existed? NO! I had had a letter from my father that day. He said that he had got the small garden plow I had wanted at an farm auction. He said he bought it at a very good price, then added in the kind of humor as was his wont, -it was a good price, if he didn't get a cold from the bad weather! I knew he had heart trouble and with all that information (although no cold had even had time to develop) I realized that it all was just a coincident It was NOT any "infallible proof that God existed." (Remember I was a believer, I was "professing" at the time.)
To believe it was proof would have been one of several a logical fallacies:
*Cum Hoc Fallacy (Poorly assumed correlation of two things) *Post Hoc Fallacy (Assumption of cause and effect) *Subjectivist Fallacy (Lack of questioning of premises)
It would have been faulty reasoning on my part to use that kind of thinking. I'm NOT talking about whether you believe or I don't believe something.
I am talking about how people reason things out & sometimes we can use the type of reasoning that is NOT sound! We are also very capable of deceiving ourselves.
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Post by maryhig on May 24, 2015 1:21:11 GMT -5
if you had seen the things I've seen then you would believe. Why do you think you're so right and I am wrong. Why don't you believe that I have had things happen in my life that I can't deny and that I know he's there. I've had infallible proof!If you don't believe in God, fair enough. But I do! It's not all in my mind, and I'm not letting my mind make me think he's there. I've told you, the things that have happened to me are i mpossible for me to just make up! They involve other people! The day my father in law died, it came to me that my husband should ring his mum and dad, I told him, but we were eating and he said he would in a bit. I got my daughter to pass me the phone and told him to ring. He said that we will pop down and visit them after we've had food. He died within the hour! We got a call from his mums neighbour about an hour later! First of all, Maryhig, I am NOT saying that you "lie" of "make things up."
Second, you make a flat out statement that; "if you had seen the things I've seen then you would believe." How can you say such a flat out statement about me? Don't you think that I & others have had similar experiences?
You cite the death of your father-in-law; here is MY experience. Here is MY experience.
One Wed. night during meeting in my father-in- law's home the phone ring. Now I don't know about your meetings but in ours yous simple don't talk on the phone during a meeting. So, the phone was just ignored and let ring until it stopped. I felt uneasy and edged closer to the phone and vowed to myself if it rang again, I was going to answer it.
It rang again. I answered. It was my sister-in-law in tears and said my father had died. I answered, "Yes, I know."
Now, I personally believe that experience of mine was even more conclusive an experience than your own! However, Did I take that experience as infallible proof that God existed? NO! I had had a letter from my father that day. He said that he had got the small garden plow I had wanted at an farm auction. He said he bought it at a very good price, then added in the kind of humor as was his wont, -it was a good price, if he didn't get a cold from the bad weather! I knew he had heart trouble and with all that information (although no cold had even had time to develop) I realized that it all was just a coincident It was NOT any "infallible proof that God existed." (Remember I was a believer, I was "professing" at the time.)
To believe it was proof would have been one of several a logical fallacies:
*Cum Hoc Fallacy (Poorly assumed correlation of two things) *Post Hoc Fallacy (Assumption of cause and effect) *Subjectivist Fallacy (Lack of questioning of premises)
It would have been faulty reasoning on my part to use that kind of thinking. I'm NOT talking about whether you believe or I don't believe something.
I am talking about how people reason things out & sometimes we can use the type of reasoning that is NOT sound! We are also very capable of deceiving ourselves.
The phone ringing, and you not answering it is a bit different than me in the middle if eating a meal getting a feeling to tell my husband to phone his parents, an hour before his father died! I just think you'll never get me, never mind. Curly is right were poles apart! As I said, you haven't lived through what I have, you don't know! I don't know why you can't just accept that I have faith and believe in God. Maybe I should go on and on at you about why you don't believe. Because I think it's foolish to think that God doesn't exist and there isn't anything behind the creation of everything in the universe and that it just all appeared! To me that's nonsense! Oh yeah I forgot, there was an explosion from nothing. It just happened! But if that's how you see it. Then ok! I don't! PS just as thought, what kind of fallacy is that, when you believe something can be created from nothing?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 24, 2015 1:23:52 GMT -5
We were taught in meetings that the reign would be a literal one on earth with the saved being the government. I am open to learning what Revelation means if it is a bunch of metaphors though. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Virgo, do you remember the preaching of Colin McNicol regarding Revelations. Do you have any notes about his preaching on this or access to any notes. He sure had an understanding of Revelations.
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