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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 15:56:23 GMT -5
I have seen many godly men and women in the work. But there are no checks and balances upon the authority of overseers. In this day of information, friends resent it if something is considered wrong in one region of the work and OK in another whether it be divorce-remarriage, TVs in the home, dress, trinity, etc...
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 30, 2015 16:08:32 GMT -5
Why is it that I know none of our church members who post on forums about their former church for decades after they left? Why is it that I know none of our church members who write books about their ex church calling it a cult.Why do such activities not consume them? I understand it is because they have gone on to something better, something that fully satisfies them and their lives and minds are filled with that. They have no interest time or desire to write books, post for decades about that which is inferior and which they left. My observation is that the majority of those that decide to leave our church have no need or interest in taking shots at the church they left, writing books etc either. There are some very decent people among them. But the vocal small minority remain and I guess some of them will continue so such until age or death robs them of their outlet for cathartic release that forums like this offer them. Indeed, There are indeed MANY wonderful decent people who have left. Indeed, There are ALSO MANY wonderful decent people that are still in!
Just as I said there are some kind ,decent ex-workers. There are also some kind, decent workers who are still in the work!
As to none the statement that none of your "church"* members write books about their ex church calling it a cult.
There is a very good reason that people in the TRUTH don't write books. We were told not to even read books, let alone writing one!
Everyone I knew as I was growing up in the TRUTH would have certainly discouraged anything like one writing a book, or Painting a picture? (Yes, I once heard a worker disparage a woman in the TRUTH who did some painting!)
They "discouraged" even listening to classic music, let alone creating any music. (unless of course it was a hymn) Creating anything within the field of the arts, was verboten.
Remember, no one needs a "cathartic release," unless there is need to get rid of some foul stuff.
*(BTW, church? -since when have the the F&W's started calling themselves a "church?")
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 30, 2015 16:53:03 GMT -5
They all must have learned how to dress and wear their hair from Irish sister workers! Probably down to blacking stockings too! Notice the big bad whip cracking brother worker run through at the end!
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Post by Mary on Apr 30, 2015 17:47:45 GMT -5
You need to read the posts, Review. I answered your questions. I said they have not written books because they have not left any church. 99% or more of your members have grown up in the group. Our grandparents are long gone and yours would be too. All the rest of us were brought up in it and never went to another church. As I also said, the ordinary person did not write books back then but instead the workers preached against churches and ministers calling them all sorts of names such as hirelings, false ministers etc. Every bit as negative as the word cult. Look at the things that have been said about Billy Graham over the years by workers and professing people.
Putting down other churches certainly has consumed those in meetings. It is the negative talk about churches that causes a division between you and other churches.
You are on this board as much as any one so if you accuse others of it consuming them then you need to also apply that label to yourself. Do you agree this consumes you?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 30, 2015 18:06:21 GMT -5
Wow your experience and perspective is different to mine dmg. Which part of my "experience and perspective" is different from yours, review005?
Was it this part? "Indeed, There are indeed MANY wonderful decent people who have left." "Indeed, There are ALSO MANY wonderful decent people that are still in!"
"Just as I said there are some kind, decent ex-workers." "There are also some kind, decent workers who are still in the work!"
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 30, 2015 18:08:07 GMT -5
They all must have learned how to dress and wear their hair from Irish sister workers! Probably down to blacking stockings too! Notice the big bad whip cracking brother worker run through at the end! You know, Jesse, when I was in my leaving process, I was in a museum in Halifax, NS. And all the pictures of women there (1890's - 1920's) looked like pictures of sister workers. It helped me understand that it was a cultural thing, not a scriptural thing. There was a lot of freedom in that for me.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 30, 2015 18:33:22 GMT -5
You need to read the posts, Review. I answered your questions. I said they have not written books because they have not left any church. 99% or more of your members have grown up in the group. My grandparents professed in 1928 and are long gone and yours would be similar. All the rest of us were brought up in it and never went to another church. As I also said, the ordinary person did not write books back then but instead the workers preached against churches and ministers calling them all sorts of names such as hirelings, false ministers etc. Every bit as negative as the word cult. Look at the things that have been said about Billy Graham over the years by workers and professing people. Putting down other churches certainly has consumed those in meetings. It is the negative talk about churches that causes a division between you and other churches. You are on this board as much as any one so if you accuse others of it consuming them then you need to also apply that label to yourself. Do you agree this consumes you? A small 48 page booklet written 19 years ago which you are still on about 19 years later hardly consumed me but seems as you are still consumed by thoughts about it. I noted that also as I read your post, Mary.
There are very few people coming into the TRUTH from the outside world these days. Nearly all new members are simply children that have grown up in the TRUTH.
Occasionally it is someone outside who marrys someone in the TRUTH, -but that is the reason that they profess, -NOT because they left their old church.
If young people, whose parents & grand-parents professed, quit coming into the TRUTH, the TRUTH wouldn't last long.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Apr 30, 2015 19:09:10 GMT -5
You need to read the posts, Review. I answered your questions. I said they have not written books because they have not left any church. 99% or more of your members have grown up in the group. My grandparents professed in 1928 and are long gone and yours would be similar. All the rest of us were brought up in it and never went to another church. As I also said, the ordinary person did not write books back then but instead the workers preached against churches and ministers calling them all sorts of names such as hirelings, false ministers etc. Every bit as negative as the word cult. Look at the things that have been said about Billy Graham over the years by workers and professing people. Putting down other churches certainly has consumed those in meetings. It is the negative talk about churches that causes a division between you and other churches. You are on this board as much as any one so if you accuse others of it consuming them then you need to also apply that label to yourself. Do you agree this consumes you? A small 48 page booklet written 19 years ago which you are still on about 19 years later hardly consumed me but seems as you are still consumed by thoughts about it. I noted that also as I read your post, Mary.
There are very few people coming into the TRUTH from the outside world these days. Nearly all new members are simply children that have grown up in the TRUTH.
Occasionally it is someone outside who marrys someone in the TRUTH, -but that is the reason that they profess, -NOT because they left their old church.
If young people, whose parents & grand-parents professed, quit coming into the TRUTH, the TRUTH wouldn't last long.
In my area, I only know of one person who professed who wasn't raised in the fellowship. She, however, then married her professing boyfriend. There are a few folks who have come back after being gone for a long time, but still, they were raised in this way. My meeting had only one person attending that was under 58--the rest are 75-96. The 90 somethings are fading away, so that leaves their children in their 70's to take up the slack. The workers have said that there aren't really enough homes for them to stay in anymore, so the lack of new members is hard on the system.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 30, 2015 20:29:22 GMT -5
[In my area, I only know of one person who professed who wasn't raised in the fellowship. She, however, then married her professing boyfriend. There are a few folks who have come back after being gone for a long time, but still, they were raised in this way. My meeting had only one person attending that was under 58--the rest are 75-96. The 90 somethings are fading away, so that leaves their children in their 70's to take up the slack. The workers have said that there aren't really enough homes for them to stay in anymore, so the lack of new members is hard on the system. The workers might have to go back to batching/apartments lifestyle, like they do in other countries. They can cook their own foods for those who have food allergies problem, sleeping in their own beds, less chance of CSA within the friends homes. It will be less stressful life for the workers and the friends, don't live life in the fish bowl anymore. The workers still go to the friends for super as they wish and visits the friends in their own homes. They will still need financial help that comes from somewhere. Apartments & food do cost money.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 22:23:17 GMT -5
They will still need financial help that comes from somewhere. Apartments & food do cost money.
The overseers have the friends trust funds. They can use the trust funds for workers apartments. And the friends in the field can pitch in with money for the foods or the workers can get jobs during the days to help out the rent and foods.its not really the ideal to work a job while being a worker I know some have done it but its still not ideal...
Act_6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 30, 2015 22:53:09 GMT -5
They will still need financial help that comes from somewhere. Apartments & food do cost money.
The overseers have the friends trust funds. They can use the trust funds for workers apartments. And the friends in the field can pitch in with money for the foods or the workers can get jobs during the days to help out the rent and foods.
Who paid into those trust funds to start with?
Now, I like this part! "the workers can get jobs during the days to help out the rent and foods."
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 30, 2015 23:44:28 GMT -5
Who paid into those trust funds to start with?
~~ Mostly the friends, and the workers, who gave their money before they went in the work.
Now, I like this part! "the workers can get jobs during the days to help out the rent and foods." ~~ Most of the workers are NOT that lazy! or afraid to work to get their own batch/apartments, paying their own food if the are no friends to support them. Most of the workers had jobs, place to live, paying their own bills, foods before they went in the work.
I worked for 7 yrs and had my own place to live before I went in the work.
I didn't say that they were lazy, Nathan!
I was thinking of Paul, how he worked when he was amongst the people.
Also, not all the workers had jobs before they went into the work, or if they did, they soon forgot what it was to work in the outside world. They forgot what it was like to take orders. They forgot how fast & how hard they had work .
They forgot how to interact with other working people, like not throwing their weight around & making others do whatever they said. If they had to return to working out in the public they might learn how to empathize with the friends who had to work like that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 23:58:43 GMT -5
I didn't say that they were lazy, Nathan!
I was thinking of Paul, how he worked when he was amongst the people.
Also, not all the workers had jobs before they went into the work, or if they did, they soon forgot what it was to work in the outside world. They forgot what it was like to take orders. They forgot how fast & how hard they had work .
They forgot how to interact with other working people, like not throwing their weight around & making others do whatever they said. If they had to return to working out in the public they might learn how to empathize with the friends who had to work like that.
that would be a rare case to not work before you become a worker I would be hard pressed to find one that didn't since I've been professing since 1979...
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Post by dmmichgood on May 1, 2015 0:01:39 GMT -5
I didn't say that they were lazy, Nathan!
I was thinking of Paul, how he worked when he was amongst the people.
Also, not all the workers had jobs before they went into the work, or if they did, they soon forgot what it was to work in the outside world. They forgot what it was like to take orders. They forgot how fast & how hard they had work .
They forgot how to interact with other working people, like not throwing their weight around & making others do whatever they said. If they had to return to working out in the public they might learn how to empathize with the friends who had to work like that.
That would be a rare case to not work before you become a worker, I would be hard pressed to find one that didn't since I've been in since 1979... Wally, do you mean that you have been professing since 1979 or in the work since 1979?
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 0:03:23 GMT -5
That would be a rare case to not work before you become a worker, I would be hard pressed to find one that didn't since I've been in since 1979... Wally, do you mean that you have been professing since 1979 or in the work since 1979?
professing...
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Post by dmmichgood on May 1, 2015 0:05:18 GMT -5
I didn't say that they were lazy, Nathan!
I was thinking of Paul, how he worked when he was amongst the people.
Also, not all the workers had jobs before they went into the work, or if they did, they soon forgot what it was to work in the outside world. They forgot what it was like to take orders. They forgot how fast & how hard they had work .
They forgot how to interact with other working people, like not throwing their weight around & making others do whatever they said. If they had to return to working out in the public they might learn how to empathize with the friends who had to work like that.
Most of the workers in the last 40 yrs want those waiting to go into the work having jobs before they went in the work. The overseers want them to know what is like to earn a living, paying bills, etc.. so they can empathize the friends' life in supporting their families. Do you have actual statistics for that, Nathan?
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Post by dmmichgood on May 1, 2015 0:07:27 GMT -5
Wally, do you mean that you have been professing since 1979 or in the work since 1979?
professing... That was what I figured. It wasn't always that way, wally.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 0:11:16 GMT -5
Some Americans have posted about their areas; and I have no reason to doubt their word. They seem to know little of our fellowship/church in numerous countries in Asia, South America, Africa and Europe where sometimes many of those in the fellowship were not raised in it. Then a lack of young people?.... Someone saying that hasn't been at Canadian, American, New Zealand, Australian, South African or West African conventions! A lack of homes to stay in?.... My experience in recent years is barely having enough days to be able to stay with all that have invited us. There is no 'trust fund' in my country that workers could draw on to pay a apartment rent. Any monies gifted to the ministry are distributed/scattered for the Gospel work within twelve months if not in this country then in other part of the world where it is needed. I am humbled and grateful of the care and provision of our people that support us in so many ways. I feel a wonderful bond and unity with them. they should come here and see all the young ones
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 1, 2015 0:23:58 GMT -5
Mary a) your unsubstantiated guess statistic in the first line. b)Yes many have grown up in the group, have found Christ and have no desire to leave for anything else. Will you deny them their experience? I see it as a positive that they grow, choose for Christ and remain in the group. c)You do not answer my question, None of the many people I know who have become church members in recent years post on forums about their former church for decades after they left. None of those who became church members in recent years...or in decades ago write books about their old church calling it a cult. I have stated the reason why this does not happen. Yes workers have said things about Billy Graham I am not aware of any that which was said having been untrue or incorrect.
Are you aware of the things in the media, Christian media about Billy? Church Ministers, Christian commentators commenting in what he stated in a prominent TV show? If not google and check it out,it is quite revealing and surprising.
I have never referred to a minister as a false minister or hireling but I have met a few, heard of more who could accurately be described that way. Teaching false doctrine, deceiving souls, others purely in it for what they can get out of it.
Of course there are many who also are not like this at all. Dedicated people with integrity.I guess in response you'll come back with some 'crack' at the workers of the church you left decades ago. Mr Review, some of the above post about other churches ministers interests me. Graeme? Capill of Chch and Brian Tamaki of Auckland may fit the bill. However I'm interested to know your thoughts on your fellow workers who commit a crime such as CSA, rape of adults or indecent assault. Is their preaching still spirit led whilst they are also committing these crimes?
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Post by dmmichgood on May 1, 2015 0:25:40 GMT -5
that would be a rare case to not work before you become a worker I would be hard pressed to find one that didn't since I've been professing since 1979... dmg... left the fellowship long time ago... In her days, many of the workers came off from the farm life and into the work. They didn't hold regular jobs before they went in the work. She was in another era of Old school boys. They did things differently back then. Oh Nathan! Thank you for summing my life that you seem to think you know so well! How kind of you!
Do you honestly think that just because I "left the fellowship long time ago" that I don't know what has been going on all this time? My husband continued to profess until he died six years ago and I took him to convention & sat with him through that convention the month before he died.
Has everything changed in that six years?
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Post by dmmichgood on May 1, 2015 0:43:21 GMT -5
Wow your experience and perspective is different to mine dmg. Which part of my "experience and perspective" is different from yours, review005?
Was it this part? "Indeed, There are indeed MANY wonderful decent people who have left." "Indeed, There are ALSO MANY wonderful decent people that are still in!"
"Just as I said there are some kind, decent ex-workers." "There are also some kind, decent workers who are still in the work!"
Review005, perhaps you missed the above post of mine, -since you haven't answered it.
Could you please answer it now?Than you.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 1, 2015 0:52:21 GMT -5
Oh Nathan! Thank you for summing my life that you seem to think you know so well! How kind of you!
Do you honestly think that just because I "left the fellowship long time ago" that I don't know what has been going on all this time? My husband continued to profess until he died six years ago and I took him to convention & sat with him through that convention the month before he died.
Has everything changed in that six years?
Yes, things have changed and improved.... for the better... I had known a few of the overseers, seniors workers from the old days. They like to hang on to their old ways of thinking.
That's one of the good reasons to have the old overseers stepping down so the younger generation of overseer can handle and deal with the current situation such as CSA. Can you tell me how they have changed?
Who are the "old overseers stepping down?" If you don't want to give names of the men, just name countries or areas.
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Post by snow on May 1, 2015 1:06:25 GMT -5
Why is it you constantly cut people down? Why do you do that? there are only a few here VERY FEW that don't take jabs at the opposite side... So that makes it ok? Shouldn't leaders lead?
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 3:48:49 GMT -5
People in different parts of the world surely have different perspectives on the topics mentioned on this page.
There are so many young people at the conventions I go to, I only know a small fraction of them by name. I can think of many people here who were not raised in the fellowship.
There's no lack of homes to stay in here either. The workers in our area get invited to so many homes that if we get them to stay for a week in the year we consider ourselves lucky. And I do mean lucky. For those of us who love to have the workers to stay, we would feel it a huge loss if they were to stay in an apartment.
I can't understand why people who aren't professing are so concerned about where the money comes from. Nobody is asking you for money. I've never heard of the friends being asked for money either. There are people who give because they love to give, people who give more because they can afford to give more etc. It's a privilege to be able to help out, not a burden or a duty. "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."
There may be areas where the workers need to take a job for various reasons, but in an area where there are many friends it's neither necessary nor practical.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 3:55:30 GMT -5
I heard that MANY MEN of MANY MINDS made MANY RELIGIONS OF MANY KINDS! and quite rightly so
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Post by dmmichgood on May 1, 2015 4:37:06 GMT -5
Review005, perhaps you missed the above post of mine, -since you haven't answered it.
Could you please answer it now?Than you.
This part of our experience and perspective is different. I have found Christ, joy and satisfaction and deep satisfying fellowship with others. From your posts it doesn't seem that you did and you wisely got out of it. Which part of these statements do you find different from your experience and perspective?
Which ones of these four statements are different from your own "experience and perspective?" PLEASE BE SPECIFIC!
1) "Indeed, There are indeed MANY wonderful decent people who have left." 2) "Indeed, There are ALSO MANY wonderful decent people that are still in!"
3) "Just as I said there are some kind, decent ex-workers." 4) "There are also some kind, decent workers who are still in the work!"
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 8:04:55 GMT -5
I can't understand why people who aren't professing are so concerned about where the money comes from. Nobody is asking you for money *** They feel their parents were conned into giving away money for a bad cause!
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 8:07:00 GMT -5
More spiritual abuse comes from relatives and elders than from the workers these days, I am sure. Some hearty know it all elders contribute greatly to the needs to the Kingdom. And the workers feel the need to satisfy the elders with some harsh action. Such as Mr. Miller in Texas who was kicked out of the meetings by his elder.
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