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Post by matisse on Apr 16, 2015 12:30:52 GMT -5
When I lost my faith, I quickly learned how much of my identity and sense of self and sense of my place in the universe had been tied up in my long-held belief that I had been chosen by God. It was a sudden and painful psychological fall back to earth - which is really where I had been all along, only I had believed differently. It is asking a lot, IMO, for the F&W and others...including many (not all) Christians, to give up their ideas about how special they are. At the same time, I think it is something that is necessary to ask. I agree....we are all ordinary human beings, behaving like ordinary human beings! Unfortunately, it seems like ordinary human behavior includes finding ways to divide the world. Please don't assume that all believers or even all professing people think they are special. I didn't when I was professing and I don't now. Never once did I think I was "chosen" by God and somebody else wasn't. If I ever did, God quickly put that silly idea in its place through teaching me about His love for all. But I do understand that people can be lead to believe they are "special" and that it can appeal to them. Again, that is not unique to religion. I'm sorry....I should have included a "(not all)" with the reference to the F&W like I included with the reference to (other) Christians. My experience is that many (not all) Christians believe that people "(insert something good) only through Christ" and see unbelievers like me as being, in some way, not as good. One example that comes to mind is an assumption that has been expressed many times on TMB, that "The Fruits of the Spirit" are somehow more attainable by Christians than by non-Christians. I am not saying that this is true of you, but I think this is an example of a way of feeling "special" that can end up being invisible to the believers who buy into it.
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Post by rational on Apr 16, 2015 12:32:06 GMT -5
I don't mind answering Jesse's or Virgo's or Emy's posts even when I don't agree with them because they don't keep going in circles, separate my paragraphs into sentences and take them out of context and in a completely different direction. One of the reason for quoting your text when responding is to avoid taking anything out of context. I try hard not to take things out of context and would be glad to make a correction if you point out where I did this.
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Post by xna on Apr 16, 2015 13:09:30 GMT -5
Please don't assume that all believers or even all professing people think they are special. I didn't when I was professing and I don't now. Never once did I think I was "chosen" by God and somebody else wasn't. If I ever did, God quickly put that silly idea in its place through teaching me about His love for all. But I do understand that people can be lead to believe they are "special" and that it can appeal to them. Again, that is not unique to religion. When I professed I was told I was chosen, thus separated from the rest of mankind, made to feel special, and I did think I was special. I'll follow Nathan9 and cut and paste to support my understanding. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth." Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but f ew are chosen." 1 Peter 2:9 "But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light" Romans 8:28 "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." Deuteronomy 14:2 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. Ephesians 1:4-5 "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will" John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. Ephesians 1:11 "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will" Romans 8:29 " For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; Romans 8:30 "and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. Deuteronomy 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
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Post by mdm on Apr 16, 2015 15:29:02 GMT -5
Please don't assume that all believers or even all professing people think they are special. I didn't when I was professing and I don't now. Never once did I think I was "chosen" by God and somebody else wasn't. If I ever did, God quickly put that silly idea in its place through teaching me about His love for all. But I do understand that people can be lead to believe they are "special" and that it can appeal to them. Again, that is not unique to religion. When I professed I was told I was chosen, thus separated from the rest of mankind, made to feel special, and I did think I was special. I'll follow Nathan9 and cut and paste to support my understanding. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth." Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but f ew are chosen." 1 Peter 2:9 "But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light" Romans 8:28 "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." Deuteronomy 14:2 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. Ephesians 1:4-5 "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will" John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. Ephesians 1:11 "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will" Romans 8:29 " For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; Romans 8:30 "and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. Deuteronomy 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. I understand why these verses can be used to promote pride and self-exaltation or looking down on others. But I don't see them as being written for that purpose. Conclusions/teachings sometimes depend on hidden agendas. And to be clear, I don't doubt you were told that. I always cringed when I heard such talk.
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Post by mdm on Apr 16, 2015 15:33:30 GMT -5
Snow, in case you haven't noticed, you are disparaging my and others' belief. Never mind the fact that atheistic governments that tried to do away with religion and faith have not proven themselves to be able to unite people in peace and harmony. That experiment has already been done, you know? When beliefs lead to the abuse of children and the coverup of the offenders it may be time to point out the dangers of people's beliefs. The 'experiment' is ongoing. You cannot force people to believe or not believe. It is much more effective when people reach their own conclusions. Pew research suggests that 30+% of people in the US are not religious. They tend to do away with religion on their own. And their does not seem to be less peace and harmony. In general, I don't disagree with you. Unless I am missing your point.
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Post by snow on Apr 16, 2015 16:06:48 GMT -5
You mean something as simple as standing up at convention and telling people there is a problem and if they know of anyone that needs to be reported to please contact the authorities immediately and also let us know so we can immediately take steps to remove them from the work until the investigation is over? I assume you are expecting overseers to stand up at convention and say that? Yes, and I would be real suspect of their unwillingness to do that too. How else are you supposed to get across the seriousness and the concern you have for your members and their children if you do not make an announcement where the most amount of the members are likely to hear it?
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Post by snow on Apr 16, 2015 16:13:21 GMT -5
Exactly. The longer I live the more I see the divisions that belief in God creates. There are so many gods and so many interpretations of the same god but every one of them claim that their god is the only true god and the only way to a comfortable afterlife. How can that not cause division among humanity? Hopefully our world will one day get rid of all the gods like we have done with Thor, Zeus and many others that are no longer vogue! I recognize that it won't solve all the world's problems, but it will take care of a vast majority of them. Snow, in case you haven't noticed, you are disparaging my and others' belief. Never mind the fact that atheistic governments that tried to do away with religion and faith have not proven themselves to be able to unite people in peace and harmony. That experiment has already been done, you know? Maja, I am not disparaging you or anyone else. I am saying I wish there were no longer any that believed in God. That would take care of religion and the divisions it causes right there. The reason why your so called secular governments and so called experiments didn't work is because they were trying to force others to not believe. When the day comes where there is no longer belief, it will be a natural condition for which no one is going to be upset about a secular world. Also, the governments that were set up had an agenda to suppress those who believed. That never works. People need to come to those conclusions themselves, then the next step is not taken under coercion but because it no longer makes sense. Big difference. There is no reason to believe in God and lots of reasons not to. People can be good, moral and compassionate without being told to do it because of a God. It would not solve all the world's problems as I already stated, but it would cut down on them considerably. This is my opinion, and if you choose to think it disparages you in some way, there is another reason why God is a problem. You can't allow for people who do not believe in God to state their opinion without feeling it somehow condemns you, persecutes you etc. That simply is not the case. I simply have an opinion that is different from yours. It's that simple.
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Post by mdm on Apr 16, 2015 18:30:54 GMT -5
Snow, in case you haven't noticed, you are disparaging my and others' belief. Never mind the fact that atheistic governments that tried to do away with religion and faith have not proven themselves to be able to unite people in peace and harmony. That experiment has already been done, you know? Maja, I am not disparaging you or anyone else. I am saying I wish there were no longer any that believed in God. That would take care of religion and the divisions it causes right there. The reason why your so called secular governments and so called experiments didn't work is because they were trying to force others to not believe. When the day comes where there is no longer belief, it will be a natural condition for which no one is going to be upset about a secular world. Also, the governments that were set up had an agenda to suppress those who believed. That never works. People need to come to those conclusions themselves, then the next step is not taken under coercion but because it no longer makes sense. Big difference. There is no reason to believe in God and lots of reasons not to. People can be good, moral and compassionate without being told to do it because of a God. It would not solve all the world's problems as I already stated, but it would cut down on them considerably. This is my opinion, and if you choose to think it disparages you in some way, there is another reason why God is a problem. You can't allow for people who do not believe in God to state their opinion without feeling it somehow condemns you, persecutes you etc. That simply is not the case. I simply have an opinion that is different from yours. It's that simple. The reason I pointed this out to you is that I remember you saying on another thread that you didn't appreciate when certain people talk negatively about atheists, and wanted to show you that the same is done about believers. Of course I don't feel persecuted, but if you were a government official, I would.
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Post by snow on Apr 16, 2015 19:25:05 GMT -5
Maja, I am not disparaging you or anyone else. I am saying I wish there were no longer any that believed in God. That would take care of religion and the divisions it causes right there. The reason why your so called secular governments and so called experiments didn't work is because they were trying to force others to not believe. When the day comes where there is no longer belief, it will be a natural condition for which no one is going to be upset about a secular world. Also, the governments that were set up had an agenda to suppress those who believed. That never works. People need to come to those conclusions themselves, then the next step is not taken under coercion but because it no longer makes sense. Big difference. There is no reason to believe in God and lots of reasons not to. People can be good, moral and compassionate without being told to do it because of a God. It would not solve all the world's problems as I already stated, but it would cut down on them considerably. This is my opinion, and if you choose to think it disparages you in some way, there is another reason why God is a problem. You can't allow for people who do not believe in God to state their opinion without feeling it somehow condemns you, persecutes you etc. That simply is not the case. I simply have an opinion that is different from yours. It's that simple. The reason I pointed this out to you is that I remember you saying on another thread that you didn't appreciate when certain people talk negatively about atheists, and wanted to show you that the same is done about believers. Of course I don't feel persecuted, but if you were a government official, I would. You see the difference between you and me then is that I wouldn't force it on you. I would let you come to the conclusion on your own. But look what is happening in your country right now. All these bills about Protection of Religious Freedom. It's a joke because the only religion that it's really protecting is Christianity. I would be very afraid to be ruled by a Christian theocracy because there would be no freedom of belief like their is with a secular government that is allowing you freedoms with your religious beliefs. So I don't think you would need to feel persecuted if I was a government official because I would probably fight for your rights to your beliefs even though I don't agree with them. Christians on the other hand have proven how they can be biased against anyone that might not align with their beliefs and refuse them service.
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Post by mdm on Apr 16, 2015 20:48:10 GMT -5
The reason I pointed this out to you is that I remember you saying on another thread that you didn't appreciate when certain people talk negatively about atheists, and wanted to show you that the same is done about believers. Of course I don't feel persecuted, but if you were a government official, I would. You see the difference between you and me then is that I wouldn't force it on you. I would let you come to the conclusion on your own. But look what is happening in your country right now. All these bills about Protection of Religious Freedom. It's a joke because the only religion that it's really protecting is Christianity. I would be very afraid to be ruled by a Christian theocracy because there would be no freedom of belief like their is with a secular government that is allowing you freedoms with your religious beliefs. So I don't think you would need to feel persecuted if I was a government official because I would probably fight for your rights to your beliefs even though I don't agree with them. Christians on the other hand have proven how they can be biased against anyone that might not align with their beliefs and refuse them service. The "difference between you and me"? Can you say that again please? I would force something on you? Like what? And only Christians have proven that they can be biased? And what do US politicians have to do with me personally??? Now if I had said that "I wish there were no longer any atheists" like you said you wish there were no longer any believers, I would see why you would be making all these assumptions, but I didn't.
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Post by bubbles on Apr 16, 2015 22:32:08 GMT -5
I think this is quite insightful, and pinpoints a significant reason why the 2X2 hierarchy cannot deal with CSA and SA in an open and straightforward manner. When you have kind of forgotten the mindset (or never knew it in the first place) the lack of open and significant action on these issues almost seems to defy common sense. When you climb the mountain you see further. This image changed mankind's sense of self. Isnt that a beautiful photo. Imagine that on a wall on the house
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Post by snow on Apr 17, 2015 12:07:47 GMT -5
You see the difference between you and me then is that I wouldn't force it on you. I would let you come to the conclusion on your own. But look what is happening in your country right now. All these bills about Protection of Religious Freedom. It's a joke because the only religion that it's really protecting is Christianity. I would be very afraid to be ruled by a Christian theocracy because there would be no freedom of belief like their is with a secular government that is allowing you freedoms with your religious beliefs. So I don't think you would need to feel persecuted if I was a government official because I would probably fight for your rights to your beliefs even though I don't agree with them. Christians on the other hand have proven how they can be biased against anyone that might not align with their beliefs and refuse them service. The "difference between you and me"? Can you say that again please? I would force something on you? Like what? And only Christians have proven that they can be biased? And what do US politicians have to do with me personally??? Now if I had said that "I wish there were no longer any atheists" like you said you wish there were no longer any believers, I would see why you would be making all these assumptions, but I didn't. That was worded wrong for sure and I apologize. The point I was trying to make was if you are saying I would persecute you if I was in government, then you have me all wrong. I would fight to give you the freedoms that a non secular government would just take away. I don't have a problem with you wishing there were no longer any atheists. I imagine that you feel that a belief in God somehow makes society a better place and it's us atheists that are messing things up. What I see is how the laws that are coming into existence in the States are not being used to protect all religions as much as being used to be biased against groups Christians don't agree with. The track record speaks for itself in Indiana and other states that have this law at the moment. As soon as Indiana had their bill pass all of a sudden businesses used that to target groups they didn't agree with and refuse them service. A teen who didn't want to do a pledge of allegiance was refused service by a nurse. These things are why a secular government needs to be in place because, while it's not perfect, it is more likely to protect the rights of everyone, not just one group. I would never want to live in a theocracy because although what we have is not perfect, a theocracy has historically been proven to be worse. I do not hate or dislike believers. I do dislike what some of the beliefs do to our world though. On another thread a belief in demons is being attributed to those with mental illnesses. I think that is just one example of many where belief in the bible is dangerous. At the moment, at this time in our development, it appears that religions are still needed if it is their belief in God that tells them that they should love one another and do things that are good rather than things that are detrimental to others. I still would like to see the day when all belief is unnecessary and we can let go of the things that make religions divisive and dangerous. Until that time they do serve a purpose. I don't see any benefit in trying to suppress someone's belief through use of force or laws, it's something the person needs to come to realize on their own or it is useless. I would still like to see that day happen but that doesn't mean that I would ever do anything to force it to happen. So your accusation that you would feel persecuted if I was in government is off base because I would not be trying to take away freedoms, but I would be trying to educate and uphold the freedoms that support the various beliefs as long as they do not harm others. That is important to me that one group and their beliefs doesn't condemn another group and do them harm, but that is sometimes pretty hard to do with some of the beliefs religions hold.
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Post by rational on Apr 17, 2015 12:46:54 GMT -5
Please don't assume that all believers or even all professing people think they are special. I didn't when I was professing and I don't now. Never once did I think I was "chosen" by God and somebody else wasn't. If I ever did, God quickly put that silly idea in its place through teaching me about His love for all. But I do understand that people can be lead to believe they are "special" and that it can appeal to them. Again, that is not unique to religion. This is difficult to put together in a single paragraph and and still retain the ring of truth. You say you do not think you are 'special/chosen' and one of the things that have helped you to arrive at this conclusion is that god, the ultimate power in the universe, taught you about his love for all. There are a lot of people who were not taught this. But you don't think this makes you special? Imagine a peasant in the middle ages living her day to day life and the king stops by and gives her life lessons and tells her not to think she is special. Or chosen. But it is clear that neither is true. She was chosen. And that makes her special. This is, of course, in comparison to the maddening crowd that the king did not visit. Being 'special' or 'chosen' only means you can be identified as a group but does not imply superiority. I have been chosen for jury duty. And I am selected as the one to take out the trash at our house. Don't believers think they have been chosen or selected by god, for whatever reason? I don't know of any that think it is up to the human to decide if they are, for lack of a different descriptive phrase, "god's friend".
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Post by mdm on Apr 17, 2015 13:09:24 GMT -5
The "difference between you and me"? Can you say that again please? I would force something on you? Like what? And only Christians have proven that they can be biased? And what do US politicians have to do with me personally??? Now if I had said that "I wish there were no longer any atheists" like you said you wish there were no longer any believers, I would see why you would be making all these assumptions, but I didn't. That was worded wrong for sure and I apologize. The point I was trying to make was if you are saying I would persecute you if I was in government, then you have me all wrong. I would fight to give you the freedoms that a non secular government would just take away. I don't have a problem with you wishing there were no longer any atheists. I imagine that you feel that a belief in God somehow makes society a better place and it's us atheists that are messing things up. What I see is how the laws that are coming into existence in the States are not being used to protect all religions as much as being used to be biased against groups Christians don't agree with. The track record speaks for itself in Indiana and other states that have this law at the moment. As soon as Indiana had their bill pass all of a sudden businesses used that to target groups they didn't agree with and refuse them service. A teen who didn't want to do a pledge of allegiance was refused service by a nurse. These things are why a secular government needs to be in place because, while it's not perfect, it is more likely to protect the rights of everyone, not just one group. I would never want to live in a theocracy because although what we have is not perfect, a theocracy has historically been proven to be worse. I do not hate or dislike believers. I do dislike what some of the beliefs do to our world though. On another thread a belief in demons is being attributed to those with mental illnesses. I think that is just one example of many where belief in the bible is dangerous. At the moment, at this time in our development, it appears that religions are still needed if it is their belief in God that tells them that they should love one another and do things that are good rather than things that are detrimental to others. I still would like to see the day when all belief is unnecessary and we can let go of the things that make religions divisive and dangerous. Until that time they do serve a purpose. I don't see any benefit in trying to suppress someone's belief through use of force or laws, it's something the person needs to come to realize on their own or it is useless. I would still like to see that day happen but that doesn't mean that I would ever do anything to force it to happen. So your accusation that you would feel persecuted if I was in government is off base because I would not be trying to take away freedoms, but I would be trying to educate and uphold the freedoms that support the various beliefs as long as they do not harm others. That is important to me that one group and their beliefs doesn't condemn another group and do them harm, but that is sometimes pretty hard to do with some of the beliefs religions hold. Even though belief and religion are interesting topics to discuss, I am not on this board to discuss them, and I don't have time for it. I just wrote the first post to you because I saw you as sensitive to other people's feelings, and because you expressed disapproval of others talking negatively about atheists. Anyway, I won't do that again Never mind me, feel free to say whatever you want.
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Post by snow on Apr 17, 2015 13:16:36 GMT -5
That was worded wrong for sure and I apologize. The point I was trying to make was if you are saying I would persecute you if I was in government, then you have me all wrong. I would fight to give you the freedoms that a non secular government would just take away. I don't have a problem with you wishing there were no longer any atheists. I imagine that you feel that a belief in God somehow makes society a better place and it's us atheists that are messing things up. What I see is how the laws that are coming into existence in the States are not being used to protect all religions as much as being used to be biased against groups Christians don't agree with. The track record speaks for itself in Indiana and other states that have this law at the moment. As soon as Indiana had their bill pass all of a sudden businesses used that to target groups they didn't agree with and refuse them service. A teen who didn't want to do a pledge of allegiance was refused service by a nurse. These things are why a secular government needs to be in place because, while it's not perfect, it is more likely to protect the rights of everyone, not just one group. I would never want to live in a theocracy because although what we have is not perfect, a theocracy has historically been proven to be worse. I do not hate or dislike believers. I do dislike what some of the beliefs do to our world though. On another thread a belief in demons is being attributed to those with mental illnesses. I think that is just one example of many where belief in the bible is dangerous. At the moment, at this time in our development, it appears that religions are still needed if it is their belief in God that tells them that they should love one another and do things that are good rather than things that are detrimental to others. I still would like to see the day when all belief is unnecessary and we can let go of the things that make religions divisive and dangerous. Until that time they do serve a purpose. I don't see any benefit in trying to suppress someone's belief through use of force or laws, it's something the person needs to come to realize on their own or it is useless. I would still like to see that day happen but that doesn't mean that I would ever do anything to force it to happen. So your accusation that you would feel persecuted if I was in government is off base because I would not be trying to take away freedoms, but I would be trying to educate and uphold the freedoms that support the various beliefs as long as they do not harm others. That is important to me that one group and their beliefs doesn't condemn another group and do them harm, but that is sometimes pretty hard to do with some of the beliefs religions hold. Even though belief and religion are interesting topics to discuss, I am not on this board to discuss them, and I don't have time for it. I just wrote the first post to you because I saw you as sensitive to other people's feelings, and because you expressed disapproval of others talking negatively about atheists. Anyway, I won't do that again Never mind me, feel free to say whatever you want. Thank you for your permission.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2015 18:02:50 GMT -5
Shortly after my excommunication word came to me of some serious worker sexual misbehavior in a Portland home while the owners were away.
Immediately I related the account to a worker I still had respect for and was told in no uncertain terms I was never to even mention such things to him again. Losing all respect for the guy, I have not, and have no credibility with workers to be of help to anyone. Que sera, sera, and now I am old and completely out of touch, certainly have no family except several no longer attending who seem to care for me. What, pray tell can someone like me do, have no longer any first hand knowledge and my abuser in my childhood is long dead mourned by accolades from believers everywhere.
So, all I can do is grieve (and weep now and then.) So far, so very far from what I thought that fellowship was as proven even now by some of those professing and even one claiming to be a worker here. Once it would have been unbelievable. No longer. It is now a shameful thing for me to have once been a worker on two continents, a number of countries and many states. I am so sorry for what others have had to endure. It also is saddenly amazing to me to see anyone try to defend the indefensible in this forum.
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Post by bubbles on Apr 18, 2015 19:26:56 GMT -5
Shortly after my excommunication word came to me of some serious worker sexual misbehavior in a Portland home while the owners were away.
Immediately I related the account to a worker I still had respect for and was told in no uncertain terms I was never to even mention such things to him again. Losing all respect for the guy, I have not, and have no credibility with workers to be of help to anyone. Que sera, sera, and now I am old and completely out of touch, certainly have no family except several no longer attending who seem to care for me. What, pray tell can someone like me do, have no longer any first hand knowledge and my abuser in my childhood is long dead mourned by accolades from believers everywhere.
So, all I can do is grieve (and weep now and then.) So far, so very far from what I thought that fellowship was as proven even now by some of those professing and even one claiming to be a worker here. Once it would have been unbelievable. No longer. It is now a shameful thing for me to have once been a worker on two continents, a number of countries and many states. I am so sorry for what others have had to endure. It also is saddenly amazing to me to see anyone try to defend the indefensible in this forum. Not good Dennis. People will be people. You were rocking the boat speaking to that worker. I really dont think they know how to react because they struggle with disloyalty etc who knows. It frustrates the heck out of me when I read this stuff. You are a survivour. Strong in your faith. Do you think its time to just let it go? Theres a saying...'dont try to change what you have no power over, change the things you can'..something like that.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 18, 2015 20:21:16 GMT -5
That was worded wrong for sure and I apologize. The point I was trying to make was if you are saying I would persecute you if I was in government, then you have me all wrong. I would fight to give you the freedoms that a non secular government would just take away. I don't have a problem with you wishing there were no longer any atheists. I imagine that you feel that a belief in God somehow makes society a better place and it's us atheists that are messing things up. What I see is how the laws that are coming into existence in the States are not being used to protect all religions as much as being used to be biased against groups Christians don't agree with. The track record speaks for itself in Indiana and other states that have this law at the moment. As soon as Indiana had their bill pass all of a sudden businesses used that to target groups they didn't agree with and refuse them service. A teen who didn't want to do a pledge of allegiance was refused service by a nurse. These things are why a secular government needs to be in place because, while it's not perfect, it is more likely to protect the rights of everyone, not just one group. I would never want to live in a theocracy because although what we have is not perfect, a theocracy has historically been proven to be worse. I do not hate or dislike believers. I do dislike what some of the beliefs do to our world though. On another thread a belief in demons is being attributed to those with mental illnesses. I think that is just one example of many where belief in the bible is dangerous. At the moment, at this time in our development, it appears that religions are still needed if it is their belief in God that tells them that they should love one another and do things that are good rather than things that are detrimental to others. I still would like to see the day when all belief is unnecessary and we can let go of the things that make religions divisive and dangerous. Until that time they do serve a purpose. I don't see any benefit in trying to suppress someone's belief through use of force or laws, it's something the person needs to come to realize on their own or it is useless. I would still like to see that day happen but that doesn't mean that I would ever do anything to force it to happen. So your accusation that you would feel persecuted if I was in government is off base because I would not be trying to take away freedoms, but I would be trying to educate and uphold the freedoms that support the various beliefs as long as they do not harm others. That is important to me that one group and their beliefs doesn't condemn another group and do them harm, but that is sometimes pretty hard to do with some of the beliefs religions hold. Even though belief and religion are interesting topics to discuss, I am not on this board to discuss them, and I don't have time for it.I just wrote the first post to you because I saw you as sensitive to other people's feelings, and because you expressed disapproval of others talking negatively about atheists. Anyway, I won't do that again Never mind me, feel free to say whatever you want. Well! thanks for that, maja!
You just spent the your last 10 or more posts talking about belief and religion, at the same time making some accusations that other People have been taking the time to answer!
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Post by bubbles on Apr 19, 2015 0:45:34 GMT -5
[When I lost my faith, I quickly learned how much of my identity and sense of self and sense of my place in the universe had been tied up in my long-held belief that I had been chosen by God. It was a sudden and painful psychological fall back to earth - which is really where I had been all along, only I had believed differently. It is asking a lot, IMO, for the F&W and others...including many (not all) Christians, to give up their ideas about how special they are. At the same time, I think it is something that is necessary to ask. I agree....we are all ordinary human beings, behaving like ordinary human beings! Unfortunately, it seems like ordinary human behavior includes finding ways to divide the world. In my exiting process, I really struggled with giving up the sense of being “special”. It was something I had to do before I could actually leave. After leaving, what was unexpected (and kind of hilarious) for me, was that it was actually a relief to not be special anymore. I dont feel chosen per sey. Nor particularly special. I do feel unique in this sense. I feel loved. I feel important to my family and the peoples lives im connected to. It comes from having a father who declared his love for me every morning growing up. And every time he clapped eyes on me. I think the security or false security I felt in leaving meetings left me a long time ago. I see people individually unique in diversity which has nothing to do with religion but everything to do with being created by an almighty force. Yea the one I call father and god. In fact when ever someone suggests I am special I look at them and automaticly feel distrust. It smacks of insincerity to me.
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Post by mdm on Apr 20, 2015 12:18:42 GMT -5
Please don't assume that all believers or even all professing people think they are special. I didn't when I was professing and I don't now. Never once did I think I was "chosen" by God and somebody else wasn't. If I ever did, God quickly put that silly idea in its place through teaching me about His love for all. But I do understand that people can be lead to believe they are "special" and that it can appeal to them. Again, that is not unique to religion. This is difficult to put together in a single paragraph and and still retain the ring of truth. You say you do not think you are 'special/chosen' and one of the things that have helped you to arrive at this conclusion is that god, the ultimate power in the universe, taught you about his love for all. There are a lot of people who were not taught this. But you don't think this makes you special? Imagine a peasant in the middle ages living her day to day life and the king stops by and gives her life lessons and tells her not to think she is special. Or chosen. But it is clear that neither is true. She was chosen. And that makes her special. This is, of course, in comparison to the maddening crowd that the king did not visit. Being 'special' or 'chosen' only means you can be identified as a group but does not imply superiority. I have been chosen for jury duty. And I am selected as the one to take out the trash at our house. Don't believers think they have been chosen or selected by god, for whatever reason? I don't know of any that think it is up to the human to decide if they are, for lack of a different descriptive phrase, "god's friend". No, I don't think that believers are chosen. God is available to all who earnestly seek him.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 20, 2015 15:30:00 GMT -5
I dont feel chosen per sey. Nor particularly special. I do feel unique in this sense. I feel loved. I feel important to my family and the peoples lives im connected to. It comes from having a father who declared his love for me every morning growing up. And every time he clapped eyes on me. I think the security or false security I felt in leaving meetings left me a long time ago. I see people individually unique in diversity which has nothing to do with religion but everything to do with being created by an almighty force. Yea the one I call father and god. In fact when ever someone suggests I am special I look at them and automaticly feel distrust. It smacks of insincerity to me. Truth to be told, I still feel special. I am endlessly fascinated by me. And I am the center of MY universe. But I no longer feel special for anything that I think or believe or do. Or anybody I associate with. Or anybody who associates with me. Or that any power in the universe favors me in either a positive or negative fashion. The friend said to me, "You have to realize that you are both the center of the universe AND that you are no more than a single grain of sand on the beach of life AND then hold both of these realizations in your mind simultaneously. When you are able to do that you will begin to find your own identity." I too felt a great sense of relief to "take my place" as an ordinary human being among ordinary human beings. I think there is a special state of grace (if you will) when you can totally embrace the above. Alternatively, you could say “It’s kinda cool” and you can take your place as a fully functioning (and contributing) human being. That, IMO, is a "special state of grace".
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Post by withlove on Apr 28, 2015 1:45:44 GMT -5
I like to think everyone is special, which really is the same thing as no one being special. Each soul is important, but no one soul is more important.
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julio
Junior Member
Posts: 142
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Post by julio on Apr 29, 2015 16:06:33 GMT -5
Progress is being made. Looking at it over the past decades; just like in the RCC, they are no longer able to just sweep it under the rug and send the molester off to a new field. More and more members are required to receive education in CSA, and are required to report it in their job. Society itself, and most churches, are continuing to make progress.... and that is good! I have spoken with one in a position of responsibility (an overseer). There are now guidelines for workers in his area. I remember about 25 years ago our workers taking some classes on family and domestic issues to learn more how to deal with things they are asked to deal with. It does seem they are much more proactive these days.
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