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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 13, 2015 23:19:20 GMT -5
Hey Bert, you have gone quiet .... are you still thinking about the question
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Post by bubbles on Apr 14, 2015 1:24:18 GMT -5
Historically this covering up was not just a church thing,it was rife in schools, clubs, families etc. Generally it was somethig that was ignored because it was just too difficult/ shameful to deal with. Many of the overseers have been brought up with this mindset. With that in mind I get tired of reading over and over again on this forum about the 'worker cover up'. Obviously they are not the only ones that know of the abuse reported to them. The victim knows, often parents, friends, grandparents etc know. They know the victim (or are the victim), know the situation, the details.If they don't report it they are more at fault than the overseers. If the problem is reported correctly and dealt with by an outside authority how can it be covered up. I say stop blaming the workers and instead look at those who lack the courage to act themselves. It is so easy to say...'oh Im scared of the repercussions-let someone else deal with it' People expect the overseers to handle it correctly when they themselves are not even prepared to touch the problem! Maybe in your frustration of having to reread the issues and problems surrounding this mess you could come up with a brilliant solution to loosening the grip of the binding tie linked between friends and workers. I call it fear of man. Others might call it utmost respect for men and women of god. Given up their lives to serve the lord. How dare we even open the topic with them. They are invincible and untouchable. If they are worth their salt they should be offering to go with the frightened families to the authorities. Support them. Be a brother share the burden. Graham did look what happened to him. There is an unnatural bond between friends and workers that shouldnt be there.IMO
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 14, 2015 3:02:26 GMT -5
Historically this covering up was not just a church thing,it was rife in schools, clubs, families etc. Generally it was somethig that was ignored because it was just too difficult/ shameful to deal with. Many of the overseers have been brought up with this mindset. With that in mind I get tired of reading over and over again on this forum about the 'worker cover up'. Obviously they are not the only ones that know of the abuse reported to them. The victim knows, often parents, friends, grandparents etc know. They know the victim (or are the victim), know the situation, the details.If they don't report it they are more at fault than the overseers. If the problem is reported correctly and dealt with by an outside authority how can it be covered up. I say stop blaming the workers and instead look at those who lack the courage to act themselves. It is so easy to say...'oh Im scared of the repercussions-let someone else deal with it' People expect the overseers to handle it correctly when they themselves are not even prepared to touch the problem! So Tom in regard to the latest issue of a ex-worker who has done time for CSA, has not apologised to his victims/survivors and now has been secretly re-baptised who should we be blaming ?
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clt
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Post by clt on Apr 16, 2015 0:02:40 GMT -5
Remember the good Samaritan? Doubtful anyone knew much because he most likely was NOT a talker. But the other's passed by. This man who was ill may have never known who helped and no one would have ever known the situation.
If we are watching out for our brethren and do nothing, then we will have to be accountable. If we have something to say, and don't have the correct info, we could damage someone's reputation.... so we have a heart and if we are being our brother's keeper, then believe me, we will see something and pray and then do what we were told to do. It is NOT easy to speak against our brother/sister, but if it means salvation for another's soul, then we must. But we must be very sure, or at least mention that we are very suspicious. I agree that children are to be protected by adults. There are signs and without letting the world know, we can protect that child and their integrity for their future. Much is done behind the scenes, and many things are coming up that are foreign to many. But you can help by being with the child, not putting words in their mouth, etc... if you don't have good support behind you. God will lead, as he loves children and HE may have picked you. I hope if that happens, that you won't get on a board and announce what you are doing. I doubt you will, as you have a valid fear. Somehow, we were taught that the workers were above us. They put the same shoes on as we do. They deserve respect, and it should be given. If something is suspected, then only you can go to someone who can do something about it or do it yourself. This is still in a denial stage, even outside the truth. I used to teach this and you would be surprised at the doctors who are clueless. Please don't blame one sect, this is a world wide thing. You sound compassionate, so you may be called to use that compassion in a way that helps another. I do think it was good for you to bring this up again so we all can be aware. We have a tendency to blame things on the truth, yet much is found everywhere. The difference is we can help quietly, and if it needs to go further, then so be it. I'm talking from experience, not just to offer something that we haven't had to do ourselves. We can keep our brethren safe, we can help them when they are ill, we can love them, pray for them, and give of our money and time. Just like anyone else, I've found few that are willing. So it has caused me to ask myself "am I willing to put myself on the line"? Jesus did many things behind the scenes, and so do our workers, friends and yourself.
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clt
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Post by clt on Apr 16, 2015 0:35:10 GMT -5
Many on this board have a lot to say about how changes should be made in the "Truth" in regards to abuse. My question is this: Have you written a letter to the overseers or elders in your area? Have you discussed this with workers when they visited your home? Have you stood up for those you know have been abused, to your local workers, overseer or the ones in your meeting? Have you called, sent a letter, or visited someone that was abused? If you no longer go to meeting, do you stand up to your relatives that still go to meeting, about abuse in the "truth." It your answer is no to all of these questions, then I ask, how dare you say one thing about abuse on this board??? You are no different than the workers and friends who continue to sweep all of this under the rug. It you are not part of the solution, are you than not part of the problem? May I just mention that things in the truth are not changing, but the world is changing and for the worse. It is now in churches and many things are new (or are at the surface) and most don't know what to do. As has been mentioned, we have a police that can be used if needed. This is illegal, therefore, under the laws, these people must bear the consequences and the child needs counseling. We are our brother's keeper and we must get involved, even if we start out with conversations (or play) that will earn respect (if here is time). Otherwise, if it's a child, call 911 immediately. If it's suspected, then confront the person if you know them. (if it's safe). Always with a witness. Of course, refuse to let them in your home. You can still call the authorities, if you are still suspicious. Even counselors had to begin learning all this as it is getting so prevalent. Most women who are at the doctors office or in the hospital will notice at some point, they will be asked "are you safe"? This means your children also. But we would be surprised at the wife abuse that is under our nose. There are signs, and they are rarely wrong. This is a law and the man must not be in the room. Jesus stood up for us, will we do the same for another? Jesus did not brag about what he did, can we do the same? We now deal with child abuse, wife abuse and husband abuse (yes!), elder abuse and most of us are around these people and may not be aware. This doesn't mean you live under a rock, but have you taught your child to yell "DON"T TOUCH ME" or "I DON"T KNOW YOU". This isn't just for workers..... this is for anyone. We teach our children things we didn't learn, because it's different today. Do the part that is shown to you. Workers can not be or see everything.... we can be a help instead of putting this completely on their back. If they are not willing to do something, then do it anyway. Just remember eternity is forever and that makes it easier! Children may not be abused, but they see too much at a young age. Can your home be a haven to the neighbor kids? You will have to be careful yourself, you may want to consider having a monitor in case you are accused. It's just like Jesus said, so make sure whatever you do, have a witness. Have you asked these questions to your neighbor next door, across the street, etc...? Do you know where all the sex offenders live in your neighborhood? Yes, workers are human, but please don't put all this monkey on their backs.
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Post by rational on Apr 16, 2015 8:15:30 GMT -5
Historically this covering up was not just a church thing,it was rife in schools, clubs, families etc. Generally it was somethig that was ignored because it was just too difficult/ shameful to deal with. Many of the overseers have been brought up with this mindset. With that in mind I get tired of reading over and over again on this forum about the 'worker cover up'. Obviously they are not the only ones that know of the abuse reported to them. The victim knows, often parents, friends, grandparents etc know. They know the victim (or are the victim), know the situation, the details.If they don't report it they are more at fault than the overseers. If the problem is reported correctly and dealt with by an outside authority how can it be covered up. I say stop blaming the workers and instead look at those who lack the courage to act themselves. It is so easy to say...'oh Im scared of the repercussions-let someone else deal with it' People expect the overseers to handle it correctly when they themselves are not even prepared to touch the problem! This should be re-posted along with snow's paragraph frequently.
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Post by rational on Apr 16, 2015 8:41:21 GMT -5
I am sorry, but when the workers claim to be the only true ministers of the only true church, and claim that all others are false preachers and false churches, and that unlike them other preachers don't live what they preach, then much more is expected of them than just being like everyone else when it comes to dealing with sexual abuse of children. This highlights one of the problems - expecting that workers are somehow different than other people. Can you blame a person for making unsupported claims any more than a person who believes the unsupported claims that were made? A big part of the problem is that people do not take responsibility for their action/inaction. Having a child protection policy in place does nothing if the culture of the organization does not support victims reporting the offense first directly to external authorities. There is a difference between blame and responsibility. There is also a difference between assigning blame for the offense, which always falls directly and only on the offender, and looking at the responsibility for reporting the crime. If there is a criminal offense and the victims/guardians are not willing to report that offense to the authorities what do you see as a solution? If the offender goes on to abuse other children because there was no report who is responsible for the lack of action? If people are willing to put their beliefs before the welfare of their children what do you think can be done?
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Post by mdm on Apr 16, 2015 9:27:43 GMT -5
I am sorry, but when the workers claim to be the only true ministers of the only true church, and claim that all others are false preachers and false churches, and that unlike them other preachers don't live what they preach, then much more is expected of them than just being like everyone else when it comes to dealing with sexual abuse of children. This highlights one of the problems - expecting that workers are somehow different than other people. Can you blame a person for making unsupported claims any more than a person who believes the unsupported claims that were made? A big part of the problem is that people do not take responsibility for their action/inaction. Having a child protection policy in place does nothing if the culture of the organization does not support victims reporting the offense first directly to external authorities. There is a difference between blame and responsibility. There is also a difference between assigning blame for the offense, which always falls directly and only on the offender, and looking at the responsibility for reporting the crime. If there is a criminal offense and the victims/guardians are not willing to report that offense to the authorities what do you see as a solution? If the offender goes on to abuse other children because there was no report who is responsible for the lack of action? If people are willing to put their beliefs before the welfare of their children what do you think can be done? Rational, I don't have the patience to read your post, since I assume it's the same old stuff. Just like I write the same old stuff. I don't think anyone will change anyone else's mind here on TMB. All we can do is support those who think like us and inform those who don't know what's happening in the church. I am not going to change what you think and you are not going to change what I think. I don't mind answering Jesse's or Virgo's or Emy's posts even when I don't agree with them because they don't keep going in circles, separate my paragraphs into sentences and take them out of context and in a completely different direction. If anyone else wants me to address anything that Rational has said here, please let me know. Edit: OK, I am sorry, maybe I'll read it after I have another cup of coffee.
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Post by matisse on Apr 16, 2015 9:30:13 GMT -5
I am sorry, but when the workers claim to be the only true ministers of the only true church, and claim that all others are false preachers and false churches, and that unlike them other preachers don't live what they preach, then much more is expected of them than just being like everyone else when it comes to dealing with sexual abuse of children. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan In the case of the Workers (and Friends), it seems that over and over again, extraordinary evidence to back their extraordinary claims is not available. It's not that the F&W are worse than the rest of us, it's just that they are ordinary human beings like the rest of us. By "the rest of us" I mean other kinds of believers as well as non-believers. Best to adjust expectations accordingly! Having said this, I have professing relatives who I'm not sure will ever be able to see the Workers as ordinary human beings. In the case of CSA, the repercussions of this have been tragic. post script: maja, I don't know if my post will be helpful, I was writing it when you posted your most recent one.
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Post by xna on Apr 16, 2015 10:03:12 GMT -5
I am sorry, but when the workers claim to be the only true ministers of the only true church, and claim that all others are false preachers and false churches, and that unlike them other preachers don't live what they preach, then much more is expected of them than just being like everyone else when it comes to dealing with sexual abuse of children. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan In the case of the Workers (and Friends), it seems that over and over again, extraordinary evidence to back their extraordinary claims is not available. It's not that the F&W are worse than the rest of us, it's just that they are ordinary human beings like the rest of us. By "the rest of us" I mean other kinds of believers as well as non-believers. Best to adjust expectations accordingly! Having said this, I have professing relatives who I'm not sure will ever be able to see the Workers as ordinary human beings. In the case of CSA, the repercussions of this have been tragic. post script: maja, I don't know if my post will be helpful, I was writing it when you posted your most recent one. It seems to me that part of the attraction and glue the holds Christian sects together is the message “you are special”. People don’t like feeling common or ordinary, they like to hear someone tell them they are special. This plays out especially in the 2x2 vs. a nondenominational group. For those who profess they hear the “few are chosen” message. They hear; (1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people …) They look around and see it’s true the 2x2 are few . This reinforces the “you are special message”. It works to catch and keep the 2x2 friends separate from the larger Christian movement. For those of the 2x2 who “hear” and then follow the calling to preach, It’s a “few of the few message”. It must make you feel like the cream of the crop. If you think you are above or better or separate from your fellow man then it’s a delusion which sets you up for abuse of power.The same was true of the OT where the Jews thought they were special, and the Levites thought they were the special Jews. This kind of thinking is a cause of a lot of wars. We humans are all one people. race, gender, tribalism, class, and nationalism are slowing yielding to modernity.
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Post by mdm on Apr 16, 2015 10:22:35 GMT -5
I am sorry, but when the workers claim to be the only true ministers of the only true church, and claim that all others are false preachers and false churches, and that unlike them other preachers don't live what they preach, then much more is expected of them than just being like everyone else when it comes to dealing with sexual abuse of children. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan In the case of the Workers (and Friends), it seems that over and over again, extraordinary evidence to back their extraordinary claims is not available. It's not that the F&W are worse than the rest of us, it's just that they are ordinary human beings like the rest of us. By "the rest of us" I mean other kinds of believers as well as non-believers. Best to adjust expectations accordingly! Having said this, I have professing relatives who I'm not sure will ever be able to see the Workers as ordinary human beings. In the case of CSA, the repercussions of this have been tragic. post script: maja, I don't know if my post will be helpful, I was writing it when you posted your most recent one. I agree with you. I'm not sure where you are going with adjusting expectations? Do you suggest one should adjust expectations and just accept the way things are? I don't think so, but have to ask.
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Post by snow on Apr 16, 2015 10:40:08 GMT -5
Historically this covering up was not just a church thing,it was rife in schools, clubs, families etc. Generally it was somethig that was ignored because it was just too difficult/ shameful to deal with. Many of the overseers have been brought up with this mindset. With that in mind I get tired of reading over and over again on this forum about the 'worker cover up'. Obviously they are not the only ones that know of the abuse reported to them. The victim knows, often parents, friends, grandparents etc know. They know the victim (or are the victim), know the situation, the details.If they don't report it they are more at fault than the overseers. If the problem is reported correctly and dealt with by an outside authority how can it be covered up. I say stop blaming the workers and instead look at those who lack the courage to act themselves. It is so easy to say...'oh Im scared of the repercussions-let someone else deal with it' People expect the overseers to handle it correctly when they themselves are not even prepared to touch the problem! This should be re-posted along with snow's paragraph frequently. You mean something as simple as standing up at convention and telling people there is a problem and if they know of anyone that needs to be reported to please contact the authorities immediately and also let us know so we can immediately take steps to remove them from the work until the investigation is over?
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Post by snow on Apr 16, 2015 10:46:32 GMT -5
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan In the case of the Workers (and Friends), it seems that over and over again, extraordinary evidence to back their extraordinary claims is not available. It's not that the F&W are worse than the rest of us, it's just that they are ordinary human beings like the rest of us. By "the rest of us" I mean other kinds of believers as well as non-believers. Best to adjust expectations accordingly! Having said this, I have professing relatives who I'm not sure will ever be able to see the Workers as ordinary human beings. In the case of CSA, the repercussions of this have been tragic. post script: maja, I don't know if my post will be helpful, I was writing it when you posted your most recent one. It seems to me that part of the attraction and glue the holds Christian sects together is the message “you are special”. People don’t like feeling common or ordinary, they like to hear someone tell them they are special. This plays out especially in the 2x2 vs. a nondenominational group. For those who profess they hear the “few are chosen” message. They hear; (1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people …) They look around and see it’s true the 2x2 are few . This reinforces the “you are special message”. It works to catch and keep the 2x2 friends separate from the larger Christian movement. For those of the 2x2 who “hear” and then follow the calling to preach, It’s a “few of the few message”. It must make you feel like the cream of the crop. If you think you are above or better or separate from your fellow man then it’s a delusion which sets you up for abuse of power.The same was true of the OT where the Jews thought they were special, and the Levites thought they were the special Jews. This kind of thinking is a cause of a lot of wars. We humans are all one people. race, gender, tribalism, class, and nationalism are slowing yielding to modernity. Exactly. The longer I live the more I see the divisions that belief in God creates. There are so many gods and so many interpretations of the same god but every one of them claim that their god is the only true god and the only way to a comfortable afterlife. How can that not cause division among humanity? Hopefully our world will one day get rid of all the gods like we have done with Thor, Zeus and many others that are no longer vogue! I recognize that it won't solve all the world's problems, but it will take care of a vast majority of them.
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Post by mdm on Apr 16, 2015 10:50:26 GMT -5
This should be re-posted along with snow's paragraph frequently. You mean something as simple as standing up at convention and telling people there is a problem and if they know of anyone that needs to be reported to please contact the authorities immediately and also let us know so we can immediately take steps to remove them from the work until the investigation is over? I assume you are expecting overseers to stand up at convention and say that?
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Post by mdm on Apr 16, 2015 10:56:40 GMT -5
It seems to me that part of the attraction and glue the holds Christian sects together is the message “you are special”. People don’t like feeling common or ordinary, they like to hear someone tell them they are special. This plays out especially in the 2x2 vs. a nondenominational group. For those who profess they hear the “few are chosen” message. They hear; (1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people …) They look around and see it’s true the 2x2 are few . This reinforces the “you are special message”. It works to catch and keep the 2x2 friends separate from the larger Christian movement. For those of the 2x2 who “hear” and then follow the calling to preach, It’s a “few of the few message”. It must make you feel like the cream of the crop. If you think you are above or better or separate from your fellow man then it’s a delusion which sets you up for abuse of power.The same was true of the OT where the Jews thought they were special, and the Levites thought they were the special Jews. This kind of thinking is a cause of a lot of wars. We humans are all one people. race, gender, tribalism, class, and nationalism are slowing yielding to modernity. Exactly. The longer I live the more I see the divisions that belief in God creates. There are so many gods and so many interpretations of the same god but every one of them claim that their god is the only true god and the only way to a comfortable afterlife. How can that not cause division among humanity? Hopefully our world will one day get rid of all the gods like we have done with Thor, Zeus and many others that are no longer vogue! I recognize that it won't solve all the world's problems, but it will take care of a vast majority of them. Snow, in case you haven't noticed, you are disparaging my and others' belief. Never mind the fact that atheistic governments that tried to do away with religion and faith have not proven themselves to be able to unite people in peace and harmony. That experiment has already been done, you know?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2015 11:21:30 GMT -5
If we portray and set ourselves up as unique models In society, especially in the religious world, then we have to live up to the highest standards, spiritually and otherwise; we cannot be seen to be doing the unacceptable bad and illegal things that others are doing in society, like sexual abuse and covering it up for example. 1/. that smacks of hypocrisy and 2/. It gives encouragement to others to do it, or continue doing it because it could be argued, in justification, that if the so called Role Models are doing it, it must be ok, and not so bad to do it after all. A role model must lead by example, and be seen to lead by example by doing the right things. IMO. Ps. I used "unique models" to mean unmatched, unequalled, having no like or equal or parallel.
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Post by mdm on Apr 16, 2015 11:21:32 GMT -5
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan In the case of the Workers (and Friends), it seems that over and over again, extraordinary evidence to back their extraordinary claims is not available. It's not that the F&W are worse than the rest of us, it's just that they are ordinary human beings like the rest of us. By "the rest of us" I mean other kinds of believers as well as non-believers. Best to adjust expectations accordingly! Having said this, I have professing relatives who I'm not sure will ever be able to see the Workers as ordinary human beings. In the case of CSA, the repercussions of this have been tragic. post script: maja, I don't know if my post will be helpful, I was writing it when you posted your most recent one. It seems to me that part of the attraction and glue the holds Christian sects together is the message “you are special”. People don’t like feeling common or ordinary, they like to hear someone tell them they are special. This plays out especially in the 2x2 vs. a nondenominational group. For those who profess they hear the “few are chosen” message. They hear; (1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people …) They look around and see it’s true the 2x2 are few . This reinforces the “you are special message”. It works to catch and keep the 2x2 friends separate from the larger Christian movement. For those of the 2x2 who “hear” and then follow the calling to preach, It’s a “few of the few message”. It must make you feel like the cream of the crop. If you think you are above or better or separate from your fellow man then it’s a delusion which sets you up for abuse of power.The same was true of the OT where the Jews thought they were special, and the Levites thought they were the special Jews. This kind of thinking is a cause of a lot of wars. We humans are all one people. race, gender, tribalism, class, and nationalism are slowing yielding to modernity. People like to think they are special, but that is of course not limited to religion. The problem is that for most Christians in the world, their faith/religion is part of their national/ethnic/family identity and they never go beyond that. I NEVER did feel comfortable with hearing about specialness and was embarrassed by such talk. Personally, I believe that relationship with God does away with such notions and desires. My experience with God has taught me that He loves ALL and wants me to love ALL.
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Post by matisse on Apr 16, 2015 11:31:56 GMT -5
If we portray and set ourselves up as unique models In society, especially in the religious world, then we have to live up to the highest standards, spiritually and otherwise; we cannot be seen to be doing the unacceptable bad and illegal things that others are doing in society, like sexual abuse and covering it up for example. 1/. that smacks of hypocrisy and 2/. It gives encouragement to others to do it, or continue doing it because it could be argued, in justification, that if the so called Role Models are doing it, it must be ok, and not so bad to do it after all. A role model must lead by example, and be seen to lead by example by doing the right things. IMO. Ps. I used "unique models" to mean unmatched, unequalled, having no like or equal or parallel. Perhaps this is implied in your post. I see the "Unique Model" as it stands now, as being unsustainable (not achievable) and the cover ups of CSA and SA as an attempt to deny the fact that the model is not sustainable.
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Post by matisse on Apr 16, 2015 11:44:00 GMT -5
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan In the case of the Workers (and Friends), it seems that over and over again, extraordinary evidence to back their extraordinary claims is not available. It's not that the F&W are worse than the rest of us, it's just that they are ordinary human beings like the rest of us. By "the rest of us" I mean other kinds of believers as well as non-believers. Best to adjust expectations accordingly! Having said this, I have professing relatives who I'm not sure will ever be able to see the Workers as ordinary human beings. In the case of CSA, the repercussions of this have been tragic. post script: maja, I don't know if my post will be helpful, I was writing it when you posted your most recent one. It seems to me that part of the attraction and glue the holds Christian sects together is the message “you are special”. People don’t like feeling common or ordinary, they like to hear someone tell them they are special. This plays out especially in the 2x2 vs. a nondenominational group. For those who profess they hear the “few are chosen” message. They hear; (1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people …) They look around and see it’s true the 2x2 are few . This reinforces the “you are special message”. It works to catch and keep the 2x2 friends separate from the larger Christian movement. For those of the 2x2 who “hear” and then follow the calling to preach, It’s a “few of the few message”. It must make you feel like the cream of the crop. If you think you are above or better or separate from your fellow man then it’s a delusion which sets you up for abuse of power.The same was true of the OT where the Jews thought they were special, and the Levites thought they were the special Jews. This kind of thinking is a cause of a lot of wars. We humans are all one people. race, gender, tribalism, class, and nationalism are slowing yielding to modernity. When I lost my faith, I quickly learned how much of my identity and sense of self and sense of my place in the universe had been tied up in my long-held belief that I had been chosen by God. It was a sudden and painful psychological fall back to earth - which is really where I had been all along, only I had believed differently. It is asking a lot, IMO, for the F&W and others...including many (not all) Christians, to give up their ideas about how special they are. At the same time, I think it is something that is necessary to ask. I agree....we are all ordinary human beings, behaving like ordinary human beings! Unfortunately, it seems like ordinary human behavior includes finding ways to divide the world.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 16, 2015 11:45:39 GMT -5
If we portray and set ourselves up as unique models In society, especially in the religious world, then we have to live up to the highest standards, spiritually and otherwise; we cannot be seen to be doing the unacceptable bad and illegal things that others are doing in society, like sexual abuse and covering it up for example. 1/. that smacks of hypocrisy and 2/. It gives encouragement to others to do it, or continue doing it because it could be argued, in justification, that if the so called Role Models are doing it, it must be ok, and not so bad to do it after all. A role model must lead by example, and be seen to lead by example by doing the right things. IMO. Ps. I used "unique models" to mean unmatched, unequalled, having no like or equal or parallel. Perhaps this is implied in your post. I see the "Unique Model" as it stands now, as being unsustainable (not achievable) and the cover ups of CSA and SA as an attempt to deny the fact that the model is not sustainable. I think this is quite insightful, and pinpoints a significant reason why the 2X2 hierarchy cannot deal with CSA and SA in an open and straightforward manner. When you have kind of forgotten the mindset (or never knew it in the first place) the lack of open and significant action on these issues almost seems to defy common sense.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 16, 2015 11:57:59 GMT -5
[When I lost my faith, I quickly learned how much of my identity and sense of self and sense of my place in the universe had been tied up in my long-held belief that I had been chosen by God. It was a sudden and painful psychological fall back to earth - which is really where I had been all along, only I had believed differently. It is asking a lot, IMO, for the F&W and others...including many (not all) Christians, to give up their ideas about how special they are. At the same time, I think it is something that is necessary to ask. I agree....we are all ordinary human beings, behaving like ordinary human beings! Unfortunately, it seems like ordinary human behavior includes finding ways to divide the world. In my exiting process, I really struggled with giving up the sense of being “special”. It was something I had to do before I could actually leave. After leaving, what was unexpected (and kind of hilarious) for me, was that it was actually a relief to not be special anymore.
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Post by matisse on Apr 16, 2015 12:03:03 GMT -5
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan In the case of the Workers (and Friends), it seems that over and over again, extraordinary evidence to back their extraordinary claims is not available. It's not that the F&W are worse than the rest of us, it's just that they are ordinary human beings like the rest of us. By "the rest of us" I mean other kinds of believers as well as non-believers. Best to adjust expectations accordingly! Having said this, I have professing relatives who I'm not sure will ever be able to see the Workers as ordinary human beings. In the case of CSA, the repercussions of this have been tragic. post script: maja, I don't know if my post will be helpful, I was writing it when you posted your most recent one. I agree with you. I'm not sure where you are going with adjusting expectations? Do you suggest one should adjust expectations and just accept the way things are? I don't think so, but have to ask. I do not accept the way things are. I suppose I am saying something similar to what Rational posted earlier: " This highlights one of the problems - expecting that workers are somehow different than other people. Can you blame a person for making unsupported claims any more than a person who believes the unsupported claims that were made?" -Rational, earlier today I am not at all surprised that the Workers cannot live up to their claims of extra-special favor and support from God. I am also not at all surprised that there is general resistance among the Friends and Workers to acknowledging problems that might force them to face the "possibility" that they aren't as God-favored compared to the rest of us as they want to believe they are. As long as this is the case, I don't see change coming quickly.
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Post by mdm on Apr 16, 2015 12:05:08 GMT -5
It seems to me that part of the attraction and glue the holds Christian sects together is the message “you are special”. People don’t like feeling common or ordinary, they like to hear someone tell them they are special. This plays out especially in the 2x2 vs. a nondenominational group. For those who profess they hear the “few are chosen” message. They hear; (1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people …) They look around and see it’s true the 2x2 are few . This reinforces the “you are special message”. It works to catch and keep the 2x2 friends separate from the larger Christian movement. For those of the 2x2 who “hear” and then follow the calling to preach, It’s a “few of the few message”. It must make you feel like the cream of the crop. If you think you are above or better or separate from your fellow man then it’s a delusion which sets you up for abuse of power.The same was true of the OT where the Jews thought they were special, and the Levites thought they were the special Jews. This kind of thinking is a cause of a lot of wars. We humans are all one people. race, gender, tribalism, class, and nationalism are slowing yielding to modernity. When I lost my faith, I quickly learned how much of my identity and sense of self and sense of my place in the universe had been tied up in my long-held belief that I had been chosen by God. It was a sudden and painful psychological fall back to earth - which is really where I had been all along, only I had believed differently. It is asking a lot, IMO, for the F&W and others...including many (not all) Christians, to give up their ideas about how special they are. At the same time, I think it is something that is necessary to ask. I agree....we are all ordinary human beings, behaving like ordinary human beings! Unfortunately, it seems like ordinary human behavior includes finding ways to divide the world. Please don't assume that all believers or even all professing people think they are special. I didn't when I was professing and I don't now. Never once did I think I was "chosen" by God and somebody else wasn't. If I ever did, God quickly put that silly idea in its place through teaching me about His love for all. But I do understand that people can be lead to believe they are "special" and that it can appeal to them. Again, that is not unique to religion.
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Post by matisse on Apr 16, 2015 12:11:37 GMT -5
[When I lost my faith, I quickly learned how much of my identity and sense of self and sense of my place in the universe had been tied up in my long-held belief that I had been chosen by God. It was a sudden and painful psychological fall back to earth - which is really where I had been all along, only I had believed differently. It is asking a lot, IMO, for the F&W and others...including many (not all) Christians, to give up their ideas about how special they are. At the same time, I think it is something that is necessary to ask. I agree....we are all ordinary human beings, behaving like ordinary human beings! Unfortunately, it seems like ordinary human behavior includes finding ways to divide the world. In my exiting process, I really struggled with giving up the sense of being “special”. It was something I had to do before I could actually leave. After leaving, what was unexpected (and kind of hilarious) for me, was that it was actually a relief to not be special anymore. I experienced a sudden and catastrophic loss of faith, and my "fall to earth" was traumatic! Eventually, I too felt a great sense of relief to "take my place" as an ordinary human being among ordinary human beings. The world makes much more sense, IMO, with this point of view.
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Post by rational on Apr 16, 2015 12:12:41 GMT -5
Snow, in case you haven't noticed, you are disparaging my and others' belief. Never mind the fact that atheistic governments that tried to do away with religion and faith have not proven themselves to be able to unite people in peace and harmony. That experiment has already been done, you know? When beliefs lead to the abuse of children and the coverup of the offenders it may be time to point out the dangers of people's beliefs. The 'experiment' is ongoing. You cannot force people to believe or not believe. It is much more effective when people reach their own conclusions. Pew research suggests that 30+% of people in the US are not religious. They tend to do away with religion on their own. And their does not seem to be less peace and harmony.
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Post by xna on Apr 16, 2015 12:13:25 GMT -5
Perhaps this is implied in your post. I see the "Unique Model" as it stands now, as being unsustainable (not achievable) and the cover ups of CSA and SA as an attempt to deny the fact that the model is not sustainable. I think this is quite insightful, and pinpoints a significant reason why the 2X2 hierarchy cannot deal with CSA and SA in an open and straightforward manner. When you have kind of forgotten the mindset (or never knew it in the first place) the lack of open and significant action on these issues almost seems to defy common sense. The way I see it is; each person alive today, or who has ever lived is special. To just be born is special. The odds of you being here, and born in this time, is mind blowing. As far as we know, we are the only life in the universe! The problem arises when one subset thinks it’s; better, chosen, more privileged, or better than any other. I see all men starting out on the same ground, but by their actions my respect for them moves up or down. I had an interesting talk with a friend who is a jew, and not religious. He is highly educated and a world traveler, yet he feels that the Jews are all part of one Jewish nation, and are entitled to the land god gave them and a ll the rest need to get out. This kind of thinking comes from his religious culture. And people wonder why they have been fighting int the middle east for so long.
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Post by xna on Apr 16, 2015 12:22:35 GMT -5
Perhaps this is implied in your post. I see the "Unique Model" as it stands now, as being unsustainable (not achievable) and the cover ups of CSA and SA as an attempt to deny the fact that the model is not sustainable. I think this is quite insightful, and pinpoints a significant reason why the 2X2 hierarchy cannot deal with CSA and SA in an open and straightforward manner. When you have kind of forgotten the mindset (or never knew it in the first place) the lack of open and significant action on these issues almost seems to defy common sense. When you climb the mountain you see further. This image changed mankind's sense of self.
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Post by mdm on Apr 16, 2015 12:30:30 GMT -5
I agree with you. I'm not sure where you are going with adjusting expectations? Do you suggest one should adjust expectations and just accept the way things are? I don't think so, but have to ask. I do not accept the way things are. I suppose I am saying something similar to what Rational posted earlier: " This highlights one of the problems - expecting that workers are somehow different than other people. Can you blame a person for making unsupported claims any more than a person who believes the unsupported claims that were made?" -Rational, earlier today I am not at all surprised that the Workers cannot live up to their claims of extra-special favor and support from God. I am also not at all surprised that there is general resistance among the Friends and Workers to acknowledging problems that might force them to face the "possibility" that they aren't as God-favored compared to the rest of us as they want to believe they are. As long as this is the case, I don't see change coming quickly. The workers say themselves they are different, except when they are found in error, and then they say: we are just human! The friends too hold the workers up as demi-gods, except when they are found in error, and then they excuse them saying: they are just human! What I am trying to say is: this is dishonesty and hypocrisy and people are being harmed because of this. I always respected the workers, but never thought that respect for them would prevent people from dealing with evil in their midst. I didn't realize until 2 years ago that this goes on in the fellowship. Place of respect and authority should never go without expectations. Not of perfection, but of honesty, truthfulness, compassion, transparency, accountability, willingness for self-examination and correction. My expectations of preachers are based on the Bible. I cannot expect you or Rational to support or understand my expectations of them, nor do I intend to justify them to you nor convince you of them. But perhaps this analogy can help: if an elected official is not doing what he promised in his election campaign, then he is failing and deceiving those who elected him. It doesn't matter that he is just human. If a Republican president wants to copy Norwegian tax system in the US, are the voters going to excuse him by saying: he is just human? No. There are certain expectations based on one's place and office.
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