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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 10:36:31 GMT -5
Many on this board have a lot to say about how changes should be made in the "Truth" in regards to abuse.
My question is this: Have you written a letter to the overseers or elders in your area? Have you discussed this with workers when they visited your home? Have you stood up for those you know have been abused, to your local workers, overseer or the ones in your meeting? Have you called, sent a letter, or visited someone that was abused? If you no longer go to meeting, do you stand up to your relatives that still go to meeting, about abuse in the "truth."
It your answer is no to all of these questions, then I ask, how dare you say one thing about abuse on this board???
You are no different than the workers and friends who continue to sweep all of this under the rug.
It you are not part of the solution, are you than not part of the problem?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 10:55:02 GMT -5
There is still a lot of fear inside the group and among those who have left but don't want to disappoint professing relatives. A few here have said that they don't have a STAKE in what goes on inside the group and THIS BURNS ME UP because they have less to lose (such as privileges) if they deal with such issues. I admire those who have challenged this closed system head on even if it meant a loss of friends, family etc. The problem is that many feel they will go to a lost eternity for exposing flaws in the true ministry.
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Post by snow on Apr 3, 2015 11:40:17 GMT -5
If everyone did what Marie just suggested, there would be no question things would change and change quickly. There is power in numbers. The workers would have to do something if the friends demanded it. I no longer have any professing relatives. I haven't been to a meeting since I was 17 years old. I have 1 couple I still know and keep in internet touch with but I have no idea anymore even who the workers are. Many that I knew are long gone.
From other CSA threads it seems that many people still feel that it isn't their 'right' to do anything about CSA in the group. They suggest that it's up to God and to just pray. That mentality just highlights for me the dangers of religious belief or belief in a God that will make everything right. So far that hasn't worked at all. If anyone in this group is going to see changes, they will need to make those changes themselves. If God cared one way or the other and had any ability to protect young children don't you think it would have happened by now? It seems that humanity cares more than the God they worship. Unless people report abuse, educate their children and protect them from predators there will never be any changes in the group.
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Post by snow on Apr 3, 2015 12:26:31 GMT -5
Many on this board have a lot to say about how changes should be made in the "Truth" in regards to abuse. My question is this: Have you written a letter to the overseers or elders in your area? Have you discussed this with workers when they visited your home? Have you stood up for those you know have been abused, to your local workers, overseer or the ones in your meeting? Have you called, sent a letter, or visited someone that was abused? If you no longer go to meeting, do you stand up to your relatives that still go to meeting, about abuse in the "truth." It your answer is no to all of these questions, then I ask, how dare you say one thing about abuse on this board??? You are no different than the workers and friends who continue to sweep all of this under the rug. It you are not part of the solution, are you than not part of the problem? In the past, Lyle Shoeber had participated on this message board about CSA. I talked to Lyle, the overseer in Texas at Boring convention two years ago about CSA. Lyle has required his staff of workers to take www.ministrysafe.com/safety_system.html. As he traveled to different conventions places through the USA Many workers have approached him and asked him taken the ministrysafe training for themselves.
I believe more, and more workers are taken CSA very seriously, they want to understand how to deal with it, and comply with the law by reporting it instead of trying to handle these cases themselves. They are NOT professional so the must let the law to deal with CSA. Perhaps, the older generation of workers might have a hard to grasp the detrimental, horrible have caused for the victims to become suicidal.
A few workers, and myself in the fellowship have tried to educate and warn the workers and the friends about CSA 15 yrs ago through my message board. Praying is good but they professional help to deal with their past, and cope with their day to day situation.
Sexual abused within the 2x2 fellowship 2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/52/children-sexual-abuse-2x2-fellowship
Now, if more people in the group had your courage changes might start to happen faster?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 12:51:05 GMT -5
In the past, Lyle Shoeber had participated on this message board about CSA. I talked to Lyle, the overseer in Texas at Boring convention two years ago about CSA. Lyle has required his staff of workers to take www.ministrysafe.com/safety_system.html. As he traveled to different conventions places through the USA Many workers have approached him and asked him taken the ministrysafe training for themselves.
I believe more, and more workers are taken CSA very seriously, they want to understand how to deal with it, and comply with the law by reporting it instead of trying to handle these cases themselves. They are NOT professional so the must let the law to deal with CSA. Perhaps, the older generation of workers might have a hard to grasp the detrimental, horrible have caused for the victims to become suicidal.
A few workers, and myself in the fellowship have tried to educate and warn the workers and the friends about CSA 15 yrs ago through my message board. Praying is good but they professional help to deal with their past, and cope with their day to day situation.
Sexual abused within the 2x2 fellowship 2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/52/children-sexual-abuse-2x2-fellowship
Now, if more people in the group had your courage changes might start to happen faster? Let us not jump to hasty conclusions.it might be a bit presumptuous to assume that people are not doing something about it; they may not choose to publicly demonstrate their dissatisfaction, but who knows what pressure is being exerted behind the scenes. Some may not favour a public show down for obvious reasons, but we must not underestimate their actions; just wait and see. The spotlight is on CSA worldwide, offenders are being flushed out, left, right and centre. Victims are no longer afraid or ashame to come forward. The day of reckoning is coming, Mark my words.
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Post by Mary on Apr 3, 2015 13:09:27 GMT -5
You mean they should NOT be sweeping it under the carpet don't you Nathan?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 13:22:20 GMT -5
You mean they should NOT be sweeping it under the carpet don't you Nathan? Well, carpets can be moved and anything under there will be exposed; the police can be ruthless in their investigations, they rip up any and everything including carpets, so be warned.
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Post by snow on Apr 3, 2015 14:26:43 GMT -5
Now, if more people in the group had your courage changes might start to happen faster? Let us not jump to hasty conclusions.it might be a bit presumptuous to assume that people are not doing something about it; they may not choose to publicly demonstrate their dissatisfaction, but who knows what pressure is being exerted behind the scenes. Some may not favour a public show down for obvious reasons, but we must not underestimate their actions; just wait and see. The spotlight is on CSA worldwide, offenders are being flushed out, left, right and centre. Victims are no longer afraid or ashame to come forward. The day of reckoning is coming, Mark my words. I'm not assuming that anyone is 'making a public show of it'. I am sure Nathan has been working quietly behind the scenes and I'm sure others are too. I don't expect someone to get up on the platform at convention and make a statement, though that might be an interesting thing to watch unfold. I don't think the survivors are all willing to come forward. Even in the 'world' they are not all coming forward. There are many reasons for this. So I can appreciate how much harder it is for survivors to come forward in the 2x2 group because not only do they know they will be judged but they also believe that they will lose their salvation if they get excommunicated. Which has the potential of happening, which totally blows my mind, but anyway... Just look at the resistance that Maja faced when she tried to make changes. I am sure others have tried too. What baffles me is why they even have to. The workers should know it without having to have the friends talk to them. To protect a system over a child is not something I will ever understand.
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Post by bubbles on Apr 3, 2015 15:51:42 GMT -5
Many on this board have a lot to say about how changes should be made in the "Truth" in regards to abuse. My question is this: Have you written a letter to the overseers or elders in your area? Have you discussed this with workers when they visited your home? Have you stood up for those you know have been abused, to your local workers, overseer or the ones in your meeting? Have you called, sent a letter, or visited someone that was abused? If you no longer go to meeting, do you stand up to your relatives that still go to meeting, about abuse in the "truth." It your answer is no to all of these questions, then I ask, how dare you say one thing about abuse on this board??? You are no different than the workers and friends who continue to sweep all of this under the rug. It you are not part of the solution, are you than not part of the problem? You are absolutely right. I do understand why you have said what you said it would be gossip. As I mentioned on another thread. A good friend of mine died suddenly. I had never met her family. Her children had been told how much their mum had loved me. When they met me they accepted me and embraced me into their life quickly. Not long after that. At a ministry camp wkend. One of them brokenheartedly told me of the fatherinlaw touching 2yr old son. I was repulsed felt sick. As I said it took 3yrs to convict him. I was pastoring at the time. I was a woman. I had to keep confidence. The kids didnt want me to go with them to the police. I sort the help of other leaders. Fasted prayed did spiritual warfare. The lord showed me in dreams who else he had abused. It was the eldest daughter that eventually stood up and took action. It was a hard time. I wanted to kill the guy. Its intolerable for me. Yes someone close to me was touched by one of the friends when I was a child. The indignation that rose up in me that day has never desolved. No I didnt go to my parents or the workers.it was unheard of back then. I feared more the retribution then. Flip lost a long post..grrr Forgot to answer the other question about family. My professing family deny any knowledge of CSA. Even though they live in the area of 2 known pedofiles. Each time I ask have you been told yet? No. Nothing. Not from the friends. Nor the workers. I find it unbelievable. Someone is lying. Im told im the only person who has mentioned it. Im made to look the badguy. They dont like me speaking this way.
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Post by withlove on Apr 3, 2015 17:14:56 GMT -5
Call to action! Love it! This is a topic we should all be in agreement on.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 17:16:41 GMT -5
Let us not jump to hasty conclusions.it might be a bit presumptuous to assume that people are not doing something about it; they may not choose to publicly demonstrate their dissatisfaction, but who knows what pressure is being exerted behind the scenes. Some may not favour a public show down for obvious reasons, but we must not underestimate their actions; just wait and see. The spotlight is on CSA worldwide, offenders are being flushed out, left, right and centre. Victims are no longer afraid or ashame to come forward. The day of reckoning is coming, Mark my words. I'm not assuming that anyone is 'making a public show of it'. I am sure Nathan has been working quietly behind the scenes and I'm sure others are too. I don't expect someone to get up on the platform at convention and make a statement, though that might be an interesting thing to watch unfold. I don't think the survivors are all willing to come forward. Even in the 'world' they are not all coming forward. There are many reasons for this. So I can appreciate how much harder it is for survivors to come forward in the 2x2 group because not only do they know they will be judged but they also believe that they will lose their salvation if they get excommunicated. Which has the potential of happening, which totally blows my mind, but anyway... Just look at the resistance that Maja faced when she tried to make changes. I am sure others have tried too. What baffles me is why they even have to. The workers should know it without having to have the friends talk to them. To protect a system over a child is not something I will ever understand. We must also bear in mind that this is a public forum with open access to everyone with online access to the World Wide Web. I Suspect that workers and overseers and others in authority come here and read these posts from time to time. If I am correct, then they read these things for themselves and must be aware of, and should be able to, assess/gauge the feelings of the posters here which include exes as well as current members as regards CSA and other contentious matters. There is enough dissatisfaction displayed here to alert them that people are not happy with the current situation and that urgent changes must be made without further delays to put the house in order and avoid public demonstrations which would not be in the in the best short term or long term interest of the fellowship. A stitch in time saves nine. Now is a timely moment to put the house in order, seek to repair the damage, come clean, with a view to a fresh start. Folks expect better. People are becoming very impatient; earthly as well as Hevenly wisdom is therefore urgently needed; that is my appeal from the heart.
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Post by withlove on Apr 3, 2015 17:25:14 GMT -5
I'm not assuming that anyone is 'making a public show of it'. I am sure Nathan has been working quietly behind the scenes and I'm sure others are too. I don't expect someone to get up on the platform at convention and make a statement, though that might be an interesting thing to watch unfold. I don't think the survivors are all willing to come forward. Even in the 'world' they are not all coming forward. There are many reasons for this. So I can appreciate how much harder it is for survivors to come forward in the 2x2 group because not only do they know they will be judged but they also believe that they will lose their salvation if they get excommunicated. Which has the potential of happening, which totally blows my mind, but anyway... Just look at the resistance that Maja faced when she tried to make changes. I am sure others have tried too. What baffles me is why they even have to. The workers should know it without having to have the friends talk to them. To protect a system over a child is not something I will ever understand. We must also bear in mind that this is a public forum with open access to everyone with online access to the World Wide Web. I Suspect that workers and overseers and others in authority come here and read these posts from time to time. If I am correct, then they read these things for themselves and must be aware of, and should be able to, assess/gauge the feelings of the posters here which include exes as well as current members as regards CSA and other contentious matters. There is enough dissatisfaction displayed here to alert them that people are not happy with the current situation and that urgent changes must be made without further delays to put the house in order and avoid public demonstrations which would not be in the in the best short term or long term interest of the fellowship. A stitch in time saves nine. Now is a timely moment to put the house in order, seek to repair the damage, come clean, with a view to a fresh start. Folks expect better. People are becoming very impatient; earthly as well as Hevenly wisdom is therefore urgently needed; that is my appeal from the heart. I hope you are right, partaker, but maja's experience was just a year ago. People can be quietly unhappy for a long time...let's hope they all do start speaking up.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 17:36:15 GMT -5
We must also bear in mind that this is a public forum with open access to everyone with online access to the World Wide Web. I Suspect that workers and overseers and others in authority come here and read these posts from time to time. If I am correct, then they read these things for themselves and must be aware of, and should be able to, assess/gauge the feelings of the posters here which include exes as well as current members as regards CSA and other contentious matters. There is enough dissatisfaction displayed here to alert them that people are not happy with the current situation and that urgent changes must be made without further delays to put the house in order and avoid public demonstrations which would not be in the in the best short term or long term interest of the fellowship. A stitch in time saves nine. Now is a timely moment to put the house in order, seek to repair the damage, come clean, with a view to a fresh start. Folks expect better. People are becoming very impatient; earthly as well as Hevenly wisdom is therefore urgently needed; that is my appeal from the heart. I hope you are right, partaker, but maja's experience was just a year ago. People can be quietly unhappy for a long time...let's hope they all do start speaking up. Well if anyone has anything to say, say it now or forever hold thy peace.
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raheli
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Post by raheli on Apr 3, 2015 20:14:07 GMT -5
Many on this board have a lot to say about how changes should be made in the "Truth" in regards to abuse. My question is this: Have you written a letter to the overseers or elders in your area? Have you discussed this with workers when they visited your home? Have you stood up for those you know have been abused, to your local workers, overseer or the ones in your meeting? Have you called, sent a letter, or visited someone that was abused? If you no longer go to meeting, do you stand up to your relatives that still go to meeting, about abuse in the "truth." It your answer is no to all of these questions, then I ask, how dare you say one thing about abuse on this board??? You are no different than the workers and friends who continue to sweep all of this under the rug. It you are not part of the solution, are you than not part of the problem? Here's what I have done: spoken to Barry,cooperated with the DA prosecutor, spoken to some sisters who came, about GS and DB, and why child moles are,allowed t o g o to mtg, and continue being called "saved", while others are the ones who allegedly "lost out" and won't be saved,for the sin of no longer going to mtg, and NOTHING else! I also called them out on their appalling lack of care for my elderly mother, and refused to welcome a sister worker who has said nasty things about me , and then thought to come visit in m y home! Um. NO! So, th a t I s . How I dare do s cuss th his here. Still, I have a question for you, Marie. If your Mom was alive, and living with you, wouldn't you try to be somewhat peaceable with her? Would you let her have myths in your living room, so that she could enjoy the comfort of what she was used to, in her last days?
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Post by mdm on Apr 4, 2015 10:07:42 GMT -5
Many on this board have a lot to say about how changes should be made in the "Truth" in regards to abuse. My question is this: Have you written a letter to the overseers or elders in your area? Have you discussed this with workers when they visited your home? Have you stood up for those you know have been abused, to your local workers, overseer or the ones in your meeting? Have you called, sent a letter, or visited someone that was abused? If you no longer go to meeting, do you stand up to your relatives that still go to meeting, about abuse in the "truth." It your answer is no to all of these questions, then I ask, how dare you say one thing about abuse on this board??? You are no different than the workers and friends who continue to sweep all of this under the rug. It you are not part of the solution, are you than not part of the problem? Here's what I have done: spoken to Barry,cooperated with the DA prosecutor, spoken to some sisters who came, about GS and DB, and why child moles are,allowed t o g o to mtg, and continue being called "saved", while others are the ones who allegedly "lost out" and won't be saved,for the sin of no longer going to mtg, and NOTHING else! I also called them out on their appalling lack of care for my elderly mother, and refused to welcome a sister worker who has said nasty things about me , and then thought to come visit in m y home! Um. NO! So, th a t I s . How I dare do s cuss th his here. Still, I have a question for you, Marie. If your Mom was alive, and living with you, wouldn't you try to be somewhat peaceable with her? Would you let her have myths in your living room, so that she could enjoy the comfort of what she was used to, in her last days? Can you share with us what Barry's and the sister workers' reply was?
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Post by mdm on Apr 4, 2015 10:31:51 GMT -5
Well if anyone has anything to say, say it now or forever hold thy peace. I know the workers and many of the friends read this TMB message board, I hope and pray that they will NOT afraid to speak up, or to stand up with for those have the courage to do their parts, so all of us are heading in the same direction, which is eradicate CSA among us.
I was listening to someone who knew about CSA said it's the work of Satan to suck the energy/life out of the CSA victims. It made them feel worthless, want to end life, little purpose to live for. CSA held the victims as a prisoner in their own heads. Instead having a life full of joy, but CSA has made their lives a LIVING HELL on earth.
With the HELP from God, and others the victims can turn a life of lemon into lemonade. Turn the negative into something positive... Use your unfortunate experiences in helping others to understand, and aware the danger and seriousness of CSA, that is to educate those who don't understand the abusers sickness/disease.One problem with expecting the friends to speak up is that they've been taught to be seen but not heard. It's part of being a good professing person and keeping a good reputation in the fellowship. When we wrote the letter to overseers, a good-by from a worker who was departing our field included a warm: "I hope you get established." Apparently, if we were seen as established before, that letter we wrote made it apparent we were not and had a lot to work on. By many friends we were seen as trouble-makers, because we spoke out. I know you didn't mean to say this, but I want to point out that we can't and shouldn't expect the victims of abuse to lead in educating others about CSA. The education and speaking out should be done by those who have not been personally affected by CSA and who simply care. Unfortunately, this goes against the teachings of staying in your place and not carrying burdens you are not meant to carry or concerning yourself with things that are outside of your domain.
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Post by mdm on Apr 4, 2015 10:42:26 GMT -5
We must also bear in mind that this is a public forum with open access to everyone with online access to the World Wide Web. I Suspect that workers and overseers and others in authority come here and read these posts from time to time. If I am correct, then they read these things for themselves and must be aware of, and should be able to, assess/gauge the feelings of the posters here which include exes as well as current members as regards CSA and other contentious matters. There is enough dissatisfaction displayed here to alert them that people are not happy with the current situation and that urgent changes must be made without further delays to put the house in order and avoid public demonstrations which would not be in the in the best short term or long term interest of the fellowship. A stitch in time saves nine. Now is a timely moment to put the house in order, seek to repair the damage, come clean, with a view to a fresh start. Folks expect better. People are becoming very impatient; earthly as well as Hevenly wisdom is therefore urgently needed; that is my appeal from the heart. I hope you are right, partaker, but maja's experience was just a year ago. People can be quietly unhappy for a long time...let's hope they all do start speaking up. I wonder how many are really unhappy? It seems that instead of being unhappy, most would prefer not to think about it, just like in Bubble's experience above. Some, who have knowledge of CSA happening take measures to protect their children, but they don't see a need for any other church-wide measures or speaking out. The ones I know who fall under that category seem pretty happy to me!
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Post by withlove on Apr 4, 2015 12:17:12 GMT -5
Someone could read this thread and think: Oh good, people are impatient and doing things about it. I don't have to. Or: Everyone is still being quiet and the consequences are too big to do anything. I should stay quiet too. Don't let that be you!
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Post by withlove on Apr 4, 2015 12:20:43 GMT -5
I hope you are right, partaker, but maja's experience was just a year ago. People can be quietly unhappy for a long time...let's hope they all do start speaking up. I wonder how many are really unhappy? It seems that instead of being unhappy, most would prefer not to think about it, just like in Bubble's experience above. Some, who have knowledge of CSA happening take measures to protect their children, but they don't see a need for any other church-wide measures or speaking out. The ones I know who fall under that category seem pretty happy to me! Good point. It's mind-blowing really how we can have such twisted prisons for brains.
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Post by applesandbacon on Apr 4, 2015 17:31:22 GMT -5
Many on this board have a lot to say about how changes should be made in the "Truth" in regards to abuse. My question is this: Have you written a letter to the overseers or elders in your area? Have you discussed this with workers when they visited your home? Have you stood up for those you know have been abused, to your local workers, overseer or the ones in your meeting? Have you called, sent a letter, or visited someone that was abused? If you no longer go to meeting, do you stand up to your relatives that still go to meeting, about abuse in the "truth." It your answer is no to all of these questions, then I ask, how dare you say one thing about abuse on this board??? You are no different than the workers and friends who continue to sweep all of this under the rug. It you are not part of the solution, are you than not part of the problem? I have reported and will continue to report CSA allegations that reach my ears through the professing gossip mill. That's the only thing that will make any difference, IMO. I thought about talking to the overseer, asking if he knew about it/had done anything about it, but then I remembered that he has no real power and decided to take it to actual authorities. As far as asking the alleged perpetrator not to attend meeting....not sure if that's reasonable. Do other churches screen members for convictions or allegations and forbid them from attending on those grounds? I thought it was the responsibility of the convicted person to adhere to their restrictions or risk violating the terms of their release...maybe I'm mistaken. I do believe background checks should be required for admission into the work or leadership positions in the fellowship. That would definitely be worth talking to the workers about. It probably wouldn't have any effect though, because the major problem is that members view the workers (and the fellowship as a whole) as being so close to God they are above the law. In many minds, the "rightness" of The Way overrides any wrongdoing among adherents. As long as that belief continues, abuses of power will continue to happen.
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Post by bubbles on Apr 4, 2015 18:02:36 GMT -5
Applesandbacon I like your point on all workers having police checks and working with childrens. That should be a first. IMO
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Post by rational on Apr 4, 2015 20:49:37 GMT -5
I hope you are right, partaker, but maja's experience was just a year ago. People can be quietly unhappy for a long time...let's hope they all do start speaking up. I wonder how many are really unhappy? It seems that instead of being unhappy, most would prefer not to think about it, just like in Bubble's experience above. Some, who have knowledge of CSA happening take measures to protect their children, but they don't see a need for any other church-wide measures or speaking out. The ones I know who fall under that category seem pretty happy to me! Until the victims, or their guardians, are willing to come forth and testify there is little than can be done. Accusing people without proof is not the solution. Providing proof to the authorities will produce results.
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Post by rational on Apr 4, 2015 20:51:14 GMT -5
Applesandbacon I like your point on all workers having police checks and working with childrens. That should be a first. IMO How many people starting out in the work have a police record? If the offender has not been convicted a check will show little.
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Post by bubbles on Apr 4, 2015 23:49:09 GMT -5
Applesandbacon I like your point on all workers having police checks and working with childrens. That should be a first. IMO How many people starting out in the work have a police record? If the offender has not been convicted a check will show little. Thats no excuse not to have one. WWC is ongoing. Besides it might make them think.
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Post by rational on Apr 5, 2015 0:13:49 GMT -5
How many people starting out in the work have a police record? If the offender has not been convicted a check will show little. Thats no excuse not to have one. WWC is ongoing. Besides it might make them think. It is not an excuse, it is reality. And it can give people a false sense of security - "Nothing to worry about - they have been checked." One thing it does accomplish is it brings the issue of child abuse into the forefront.
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Post by bubbles on Apr 5, 2015 4:39:13 GMT -5
Thats no excuse not to have one. WWC is ongoing. Besides it might make them think. It is not an excuse, it is reality. And it can give people a false sense of security - "Nothing to worry about - they have been checked." One thing it does accomplish is it brings the issue of child abuse into the forefront. Exactly. Makes a statement. We care we are doing what we can. Its not about false security. Its about protecting children.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 5, 2015 4:54:27 GMT -5
Applesandbacon I like your point on all workers having police checks and working with childrens. That should be a first. IMO How many people starting out in the work have a police record? If the offender has not been convicted a check will show little. I know of people who went in the work after having a criminal record. Criminal records aren't all that difficult to get, sometimes. And some other criminals turn over a new leaf. The people who need to be excluded are predatory types -- and not just sexual predators.
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Post by catgirl on Apr 5, 2015 5:19:20 GMT -5
I think educating parents is important, I have given out some pamphlets on abuse to a couple at convention.
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