|
Post by snow on Apr 3, 2015 10:32:55 GMT -5
I thought about this good guy bad guy thing a lot and in my understanding it is just us not willing to take full responsibility for the bad things we do and fear of owning the power we have to do good things. Everything that has ever happened has happened because a human did it (not talking about natural workings here). If something good happened, either I or someone else made it happen. If something bad happened, either I or someone else did it. If we owned the power we have to do both bad and good just think what we could do. Instead of giving credit to a being we can't know for sure exists, if we realized we had the power to be good all by ourselves, just think what we could do with that knowledge. We wouldn't be waiting for some being to grant our prayers, we'd be out there ourselves making it happen. We would be changing our own minds, making our own decisions about how we want to walk through this world etc. When people say they couldn't be as selfless as they are if it wasn't for God, all I can think is what a shame that they are not recognizing their own ability to do just that. People have the power all on their own to do whatever it is they set their minds to. The fact that they are doing it is proof that they have that ability. It always baffles me when people thank God for something another human did for them. I have yet to see God's hand in anything, but rather a lot of caring helpful people making changes in other peoples lives for the good of humanity. I see all the things that happen that are atrocious as being just us too. No devil encouraged us to do it, we chose to do it. When we do good, no God encouraged us to do it, we chose to do it. That's how I see it anyway.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Apr 3, 2015 10:35:09 GMT -5
Maybe the broader question is why every religion developed has a "good guy" and a "bad guy". The "good guy" is almost always all powerful and can defeat the "bad Guy" but doesn't for some reason. Could it be that there has to be a "bad guy" because terrible things happen and no one wants to blame the "good guy"? If I say that the "good guy" knows everything and is all powerful and then ask why such a loving "good guy" allows children to be abused/tortured/killed the blame always falls on the "bad guy". Theology doesn't work well without the good and bad teams. Not really most people, blame the good guy! A lot of people that don't believe God exists say if he's there then why does he allow this and that, but they never say it's Satan! Most things happen because of the greed and selfishness of man's heart, and we let Satan in! And he causes havoc in the world! It says in the Bible that the world will wax worse and worse, and you can see it's happening. The whole world is getting more corrupt! If people followed the commandments of Jesus, the world would be a better place! There's a reason why we're here, one day we'll find out why! Maybe the reason is because humanity isn't taking full responsibility for what they are choosing on a day to day basis. God and Satan are just excuses imo.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Apr 3, 2015 11:24:22 GMT -5
I know all that. No one seems to get what I'm interested in knowing. Assuming there is a heaven and God has something to do with letting people in -- what does someone think are the chances of the second man (the righteous one) being surprised by ending up in heaven -- even though he didn't think there was such a place? You seem to be worried about this point whether someone who does not believe in God could go to heaven. I would be more worried about, am I doing Gods will so that he would even consider me. I believe we are on this earth as a test, take for instants you want to learn to drive, you have a driving instructor he tells you the wrong and the rights of the law of motoring then once you have learnt you are tested and you have the chance to pass. If you do pass you can then drive on your own for the rest of your life but you must obey the laws otherwise your licence will be taken away from you. But if you are not willing to learn you will never pass because you don't know what the examiner is going to ask you to do I know all that. No one seems to get what I'm interested in knowing. Assuming there is a heaven and God has something to do with letting people in -- what does someone think are the chances of the second man (the righteous one) being surprised by ending up in heaven -- even though he didn't think there was such a place? Have a look at Romans 1 and 2 where Paul considers the question of those who never had a chance to hear the Gospel, that is, Gentiles before his time. Somehow they can still figure out right and wrong through the use of their conscience and will be judged according to that. It strikes me that, in the afterlife, a similar logic might apply to those who can no longer accept some of the more arcane, superstitious aspects of the Bible text.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Apr 3, 2015 11:33:48 GMT -5
I posted this in another thread. Since it should be clear that the atheist could not know God in the way Jesus intended in John 17, that's the answer for him. The man with the yacht? Although he may not be exhibiting some "Christian characteristics," it's not revealed what his relationship with God is. We don't know what else he uses his yacht for or what he does with any money he wins. Not that it's all about what one does with his money... My wording was that he would have a chance to get into heaven, which is far as theology, as generally accepted, will take us. It's not necessary to know God's judgement in any particular case to understand the moral implications of the theology. That is, we know that only believers will get in, and unbelievers will not, at least, according to most Christian theology.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Apr 3, 2015 11:57:28 GMT -5
What would christians do without our satan? It appears you think we look for an excuse? To blame someone? Him? Is this what you imply? Or are you just being plain sarcastic because you can? Maybe the broader question is why every religion developed has a "good guy" and a "bad guy". The "good guy" is almost always all powerful and can defeat the "bad Guy" but doesn't for some reason. Could it be that there has to be a "bad guy" because terrible things happen and no one wants to blame the "good guy"? If I say that the "good guy" knows everything and is all powerful and then ask why such a loving "good guy" allows children to be abused/tortured/killed the blame always falls on the "bad guy". Theology doesn't work well without the good and bad teams. Every Western religion you mean. Eastern religion and philosophy and Art are not as dualistic and not as centred on developing the ego. I recommend the animated work of Miyazaki where you can see a more realistic and less dualistic view of people at play. Viewers find his movies confusing at first because you can't sort out good guys/gals and bad guys/gals in two minutes like you can in almost every Western movie there is.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Apr 3, 2015 12:31:12 GMT -5
Maybe the broader question is why every religion developed has a "good guy" and a "bad guy". The "good guy" is almost always all powerful and can defeat the "bad Guy" but doesn't for some reason. Could it be that there has to be a "bad guy" because terrible things happen and no one wants to blame the "good guy"? If I say that the "good guy" knows everything and is all powerful and then ask why such a loving "good guy" allows children to be abused/tortured/killed the blame always falls on the "bad guy". Theology doesn't work well without the good and bad teams. Every Western religion you mean. Eastern religion and philosophy and Art are not as dualistic and not as centred on developing the ego. I recommend the animated work of Miyazaki where you can see a more realistic and less dualistic view of people at play. Viewers find his movies confusing at first because you can't sort out good guys/gals and bad guys/gals in two minutes like you can in almost every Western movie there is. Actually some eastern religions do have the equivalent of a good guy/bad guy, but they are viewed somewhat differently. There is usually a creator God and a destructor God because of their belief in how things need to be torn down for new to be built up again. In Hinduism this is most evident. The difference is they don't see destruction as a bad thing, but more of a balance between good and bad, life and death etc.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 3, 2015 15:59:45 GMT -5
What would christians do without our satan? It appears you think we look for an excuse? To blame someone? Him? Is this what you imply? Or are you just being plain sarcastic because you can? Maybe the broader question is why every religion developed has a "good guy" and a "bad guy". The "good guy" is almost always all powerful and can defeat the "bad Guy" but doesn't for some reason. Could it be that there has to be a "bad guy" because terrible things happen and no one wants to blame the "good guy"? If I say that the "good guy" knows everything and is all powerful and then ask why such a loving "good guy" allows children to be abused/tortured/killed the blame always falls on the "bad guy". Theology doesn't work well without the good and bad teams. There has always been the good and the bad. It no doubt originated with god and satan. Im not answering questions you have asked me multiple times. Do you have a list in your office to pull up for times like these?
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 3, 2015 21:08:55 GMT -5
Im not answering questions you have asked me multiple times. Do you have a list in your office to pull up for times like these? I do have a list and as soon as I get an answer from you I will be able to check off the question! It is right next my list of excuses that is very useful when people ask favors! Here is the start of the list: I'd love to but... 1. I have to floss my cat. 2. I've dedicated my life to linguini. 3. I want to spend more time with my blender. 4. The President said he might drop in. 5. The man on television told me to say tuned. 6. I've been scheduled for a karma transplant. 7. I'm staying home to work on my cottage cheese sculpture. 8. It's my parakeet's bowling night. 9. It wouldn't be fair to the other Beautiful People. 10. I'm building a pig from a kit.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 3, 2015 23:10:45 GMT -5
Im not answering questions you have asked me multiple times. Do you have a list in your office to pull up for times like these? I do have a list and as soon as I get an answer from you I will be able to check off the question! It is right next my list of excuses that is very useful when people ask favors! Here is the start of the list: I'd love to but... 1. I have to floss my cat. 2. I've dedicated my life to linguini. 3. I want to spend more time with my blender. 4. The President said he might drop in. 5. The man on television told me to say tuned. 6. I've been scheduled for a karma transplant. 7. I'm staying home to work on my cottage cheese sculpture. 8. It's my parakeet's bowling night. 9. It wouldn't be fair to the other Beautiful People. 10. I'm building a pig from a kit. I just new it!! You havent changes a bit..lol Sooo predictable.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Apr 3, 2015 23:35:19 GMT -5
I do have a list and as soon as I get an answer from you I will be able to check off the question! It is right next my list of excuses that is very useful when people ask favors! Here is the start of the list: I'd love to but... 1. I have to floss my cat. 2. I've dedicated my life to linguini. 3. I want to spend more time with my blender. 4. The President said he might drop in. 5. The man on television told me to say tuned. 6. I've been scheduled for a karma transplant. 7. I'm staying home to work on my cottage cheese sculpture. 8. It's my parakeet's bowling night. 9. It wouldn't be fair to the other Beautiful People. 10. I'm building a pig from a kit. I just new it!! You havent changes a bit..lol Sooo predictable. Much of it predictable, to be sure, but a parakeet that bowls? Who woulda thought?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Apr 3, 2015 23:44:16 GMT -5
I just new it!! You havent changes a bit..lol Sooo predictable. Much of it predictable, to be sure, but a parakeet that bowls? Who woulda thought? They use their beak & claw, don't you think maybe?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Apr 4, 2015 0:01:37 GMT -5
It says in the Bible that the world will wax worse and worse, and you can see it's happening. The whole world is getting more corrupt! Actually, the world isn't really "'waxing' worse and worse." It may seem so to people because we have much larger view of the world & that view is coming at much more rapid a pace. Knowledge of history shows a much worse world in so many ways.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Apr 4, 2015 3:58:47 GMT -5
It says in the Bible that the world will wax worse and worse, and you can see it's happening. The whole world is getting more corrupt! Actually, the world isn't really "'waxing' worse and worse." It may seem so to people because we have much larger view of the world & that view is coming at much more rapid a pace. Knowledge of history shows a much worse world in so many ways.
No I can see it around me, I don't need to look at history. People have lost the closeness they used to have. Doors open everyone there for each other, people are going more distant. I used to sit out and drink tea with all my neighbours when I was young. People are too busy to hardly acknowledge each other anymore! Everyone's lives are too busy for each other. It's definitely changing. Well I can see it here where I am in Britain anyway!
|
|
stevo
New Member
Posts: 34
|
Post by stevo on Apr 4, 2015 5:27:53 GMT -5
People including me have been taken over by technology which as everything else is used for good and used for bad. Take the internet there is really bad things on it and that stuff is easy accessed by kids yet as Maryhig said people don't communicate with neighbours anymore cos there to busy but I am talking to you good people from all over the world and I see that as amazing and I know God will use that good to spread his word the same as he use's us as vessels on a local environment, but would expect us to stay away from the bad all the same.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Apr 4, 2015 5:51:31 GMT -5
Im not answering questions you have asked me multiple times. Do you have a list in your office to pull up for times like these? I do have a list and as soon as I get an answer from you I will be able to check off the question! It is right next my list of excuses that is very useful when people ask favors! Here is the start of the list: I'd love to but... 1. I have to floss my cat. 2. I've dedicated my life to linguini. 3. I want to spend more time with my blender. 4. The President said he might drop in. 5. The man on television told me to say tuned. 6. I've been scheduled for a karma transplant. 7. I'm staying home to work on my cottage cheese sculpture. 8. It's my parakeet's bowling night. 9. It wouldn't be fair to the other Beautiful People. 10. I'm building a pig from a kit. I found this very funny, I woke up at 3am and couldn't sleep, so having a nosey I read this. I laughed so much I woke my husband up! Ha ha.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 4, 2015 8:00:35 GMT -5
Actually, the world isn't really "'waxing' worse and worse." It may seem so to people because we have much larger view of the world & that view is coming at much more rapid a pace. Knowledge of history shows a much worse world in so many ways.
No I can see it around me, I don't need to look at history. People have lost the closeness they used to have. Doors open everyone there for each other, people are going more distant. I used to sit out and drink tea with all my neighbours when I was young. People are too busy to hardly acknowledge each other anymore! Everyone's lives are too busy for each other. It's definitely changing. Well I can see it here where I am in Britain anyway! Probably too late to ask your jewish friends if you could join them for one of their passover seders. But then, start the ball rolling for next year. Regain the closeness.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 4, 2015 8:03:49 GMT -5
I do have a list and as soon as I get an answer from you I will be able to check off the question! It is right next my list of excuses that is very useful when people ask favors! Here is the start of the list: I'd love to but... 1. I have to floss my cat. 2. I've dedicated my life to linguini. 3. I want to spend more time with my blender. 4. The President said he might drop in. 5. The man on television told me to say tuned. 6. I've been scheduled for a karma transplant. 7. I'm staying home to work on my cottage cheese sculpture. 8. It's my parakeet's bowling night. 9. It wouldn't be fair to the other Beautiful People. 10. I'm building a pig from a kit. I found this very funny, I woke up at 3am and couldn't sleep, so having a nosey I read this. I laughed so much I woke my husband up! Ha ha. :) Glad someone liked it! My other job is making polyester hairballs for ceramic cats so I have time to think about excuses. (thanks to Mr. Wright)
|
|
|
Post by slowtosee on Apr 4, 2015 10:21:45 GMT -5
It says in the Bible that the world will wax worse and worse, and you can see it's happening. The whole world is getting more corrupt! Actually, the world isn't really "'waxing' worse and worse." It may seem so to people because we have much larger view of the world & that view is coming at much more rapid a pace. Knowledge of history shows a much worse world in so many ways.
Curious, where in the Bible it says that the world will wax worse and worse. I found Paul writing in a letter to Titus where he said that evil men and seducers would wax worse. Is it possible that we are being "deceived and seduced" into believing the world is getting "worse', while there are MANY statistics available showing the world has improved vastly? (albeit lots of room for major improvement) Alvin But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. " startupguide.com/world/the-world-is-actually-getting-better/
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Apr 4, 2015 13:12:10 GMT -5
Much of it predictable, to be sure, but a parakeet that bowls? Who woulda thought? They use their beak & claw, don't you think maybe?
I find that the Internet has proved it self very useful with useless questions of this nature. www.youtube.com/watch?v=W79WrFbufLg
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Apr 4, 2015 14:20:12 GMT -5
They use their beak & claw, don't you think maybe?
I find that the Internet has proved it self very useful with useless questions of this nature. www.youtube.com/watch?v=W79WrFbufLg Yes, Isn't it wonderful! That bird has a better score than I do!
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Apr 4, 2015 14:34:45 GMT -5
Actually, the world isn't really "'waxing' worse and worse." It may seem so to people because we have much larger view of the world & that view is coming at much more rapid a pace. Knowledge of history shows a much worse world in so many ways.
No I can see it around me, I don't need to look at history. People have lost the closeness they used to have. Doors open everyone there for each other, people are going more distant. I used to sit out and drink tea with all my neighbours when I was young. People are too busy to hardly acknowledge each other anymore! Everyone's lives are too busy for each other. It's definitely changing. Well I can see it here where I am in Britain anyway! My doors are unlocked. I only lock my front door when I go to bed, but not the back door even then.
My neighbors have always been there when I need them. They bring in my garbage cans & they shovel snow & clean off my car even though I have a atheist sticker on my car that says: "Good Without God"
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Apr 4, 2015 17:23:48 GMT -5
No I can see it around me, I don't need to look at history. People have lost the closeness they used to have. Doors open everyone there for each other, people are going more distant. I used to sit out and drink tea with all my neighbours when I was young. People are too busy to hardly acknowledge each other anymore! Everyone's lives are too busy for each other. It's definitely changing. Well I can see it here where I am in Britain anyway! My doors are unlocked. I only lock my front door when I go to bed, but not the back door even then.
My neighbors have always been there when I need them. They bring in my garbage cans & they shovel snow & clean off my car even though I have a atheist sticker on my car that says: "Good Without God"
So would I do all that for you if I was your neighbour, whether you believe in God or not! If you needed my help I would help you. And you'd be welcome in my home! My door would be open, and I truly mean that
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 4, 2015 18:15:48 GMT -5
I do have a list and as soon as I get an answer from you I will be able to check off the question! It is right next my list of excuses that is very useful when people ask favors! Here is the start of the list: I'd love to but... 1. I have to floss my cat. 2. I've dedicated my life to linguini. 3. I want to spend more time with my blender. 4. The President said he might drop in. 5. The man on television told me to say tuned. 6. I've been scheduled for a karma transplant. 7. I'm staying home to work on my cottage cheese sculpture. 8. It's my parakeet's bowling night. 9. It wouldn't be fair to the other Beautiful People. 10. I'm building a pig from a kit. I found this very funny, I woke up at 3am and couldn't sleep, so having a nosey I read this. I laughed so much I woke my husband up! Ha ha. Yes our ratz does have his funny moments...
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 4, 2015 18:49:06 GMT -5
My doors are unlocked. I only lock my front door when I go to bed, but not the back door even then.
My neighbors have always been there when I need them. They bring in my garbage cans & they shovel snow & clean off my car even though I have a atheist sticker on my car that says: "Good Without God" :)
So would I do all that for you if I was your neighbour, whether you believe in God or not! If you needed my help I would help you. And you'd be welcome in my home! My door would be open, and I truly mean that :) Some of this might be cultural. During WWII the incoming American troops were given information regarding the English people in a little book titled Instructions for American Servicemen in Britain. Some of the text can be found here.Phrases from other publications like: The British are very reserved and private people. Privacy is extremely important. The British will not necessarily give you a tour of their home and, in fact, may keep most doors closed. They expect others to respect their privacy. while perhaps not representative of the people today does point to the difference in the cultures.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Apr 4, 2015 20:24:38 GMT -5
No I can see it around me, I don't need to look at history. People have lost the closeness they used to have. Doors open everyone there for each other, people are going more distant. I used to sit out and drink tea with all my neighbours when I was young. People are too busy to hardly acknowledge each other anymore! Everyone's lives are too busy for each other. It's definitely changing. Well I can see it here where I am in Britain anyway! My doors are unlocked. I only lock my front door when I go to bed, but not the back door even then.
My neighbors have always been there when I need them. They bring in my garbage cans & they shovel snow & clean off my car even though I have a atheist sticker on my car that says: "Good Without God"
I like that bumper sticker with the fish with legs. (No, I'm not an atheist. I am a follower of Jesus. Nonetheless, I do appreciate humour.)
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Apr 4, 2015 20:38:44 GMT -5
Maybe the broader question is why every religion developed has a "good guy" and a "bad guy". The "good guy" is almost always all powerful and can defeat the "bad Guy" but doesn't for some reason. Could it be that there has to be a "bad guy" because terrible things happen and no one wants to blame the "good guy"? If I say that the "good guy" knows everything and is all powerful and then ask why such a loving "good guy" allows children to be abused/tortured/killed the blame always falls on the "bad guy". Theology doesn't work well without the good and bad teams. There has always been the good and the bad. It no doubt originated with god and satan. The same applies in Eastern cultures. But if you watch a Hollywood movie, typically within a couple of minutes you'll have sorted out the villains and the heroes. Real life doesn't work like that. Most people do some good things and some bad things. Sure there are people who are extremely virtuous or evil through and through, but that's a small percentage of the population. Most of us are somewhere between those poles.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Apr 4, 2015 23:06:48 GMT -5
My doors are unlocked. I only lock my front door when I go to bed, but not the back door even then.
My neighbors have always been there when I need them. They bring in my garbage cans & they shovel snow & clean off my car even though I have a atheist sticker on my car that says: "Good Without God"
So would I do all that for you if I was your neighbour, whether you believe in God or not! If you needed my help I would help you. And you'd be welcome in my home! My door would be open, and I truly mean that Thank you, maryhig, but I think you missed my point.
You had said that the bible said the "world will wax worse and worse," and that you can see it's happening. That you felt that"The whole world is getting more corrupt!"
I don't see it getting worse, but actually better in many ways.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Apr 5, 2015 8:13:05 GMT -5
Every Western religion you mean. Eastern religion and philosophy and Art are not as dualistic and not as centred on developing the ego. I recommend the animated work of Miyazaki where you can see a more realistic and less dualistic view of people at play. Viewers find his movies confusing at first because you can't sort out good guys/gals and bad guys/gals in two minutes like you can in almost every Western movie there is. Actually some eastern religions do have the equivalent of a good guy/bad guy, but they are viewed somewhat differently. There is usually a creator God and a destructor God because of their belief in how things need to be torn down for new to be built up again. In Hinduism this is most evident. The difference is they don't see destruction as a bad thing, but more of a balance between good and bad, life and death etc. I meant to comment on this earlier this week but didn't have time. I don't know a lot about Eastern religions and I'm probably guilty of Orientalism with my comment, that is, thinking Eastern religions are anywhere near alike. Islam is more dualistic than Christianity from what I know of it, and I also wasn't thinking about Hinduism. Buddhism supposedly is not dualistic at all. (The Dali Lama walks into a pizza shop and orders 'one with everything'.) I suspect you know more about this than I do. I should really start reading the Tao Te Ching soon, which is neither here nor there as far as dualism is concerned, but strikes me as a good first step.
|
|