|
Post by snow on Apr 1, 2015 19:54:49 GMT -5
Step back a bit and think of it this way: Do you try to listen to the things the Flying Spaghetti Monster says? Of course not, you do not believe the FSM exists so why would you listen? No one listens to all the things they do not believe in to see what they might have to say. Does that mean I don't have to listen to you then? only joking! Oh no!! Does this mean you don't believe Rational exists??
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 1, 2015 20:50:06 GMT -5
No no. I asked what YOU (not the others, but YOU) know about god's will that I don't know? Most of the others can't tell me, or won't tell me. I already knew that's what a lot of people on here believe -- I understood that 60 years ago. But like the above question that YOU didn't answer -- that's the kind of answers I get a lot. If someone is going to insist on something like "god's will", I have no idea what that person thinks god's will is. Some people think it's blowing up abortion clinics -- I don't. I ask questions to find out what people mean, not to belittle them. So now you can ponder what exactly you believe god's will is and let me know. That would be quite cool, actually, because that's the kind of thing we don't get answers to on here, or most other places either. And since you mentioned its importance, I expected you to have an idea what it is. Gods will is to love your God with all you heart,mind soul and strength and your neighbour as yourself. Take the Lords pray, Thy kingdom come, that's the spirit in the heart, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven that mean now this day till the end, which is not easy as the devil is with you putting stumbling blocks in the way. But with the help of God we can overcome this. Jesus did this that's who I will follow I may fall in the process but as a good boxer does they get up and fight another day Well that's pretty straightforward. It's kind of a universal teaching, except for the specific god mentioned. The red part sounds like the human responsibility. But the green part of it sounds more like asking god to do something. Doesn't the rest of it sound like taking on god's responsibility? I'm not comfortable with the "fight" part -- I thought everything I did wrong was my responsibility, not someone else's, such as the Devil's.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Apr 1, 2015 23:11:50 GMT -5
Our lives are affected by the spiritual world around us. Whether we know it or not. I read somewhere the atheist movement is becoming like a religion.I thought you were more agnostic than atheist. If I have offended you. I am sorry Last night I watched Exodus the movie. Moses and Ramses. I tried to imagine living in that time. I am more inclined towards there being no such thing as a God. I really do not understand the theist need to categorize an atheist into a religion? None of us are the same in very many ways. The only thing we have in common is we don't believe there is a God. That's it. Yet there seems to be some kind of psychological need to say we do believe in a God and that atheism is a religion. How can it be when there is no creed, no doctrine, no agreement really other than there is no God? Why is it so important to believe that we do believe in a God even though we don't say we do? This is a question in general to all theists that do this, not just you Bubbles. You have not offended me at all just so you know, but you have raised a huge question in my mind as to why so many need us to believe in a God. I don't get it. Why is believing in a God important? Why should I believe in a God to be liked or respected? I am the same as everyone else on here except I don't attribute anything to a god. I do not hold with the idea that our lives are affected by the spiritual world around us, whether we no it or not. That is putting something on me that clearly is not true for me. That might be your opinion, but it's not a fact, at least not for me and many like me. I understand what Rational means about presenting spiritual beliefs as facts. I have no problem when they are presented as beliefs or opinions, we are all entitled to those things. What I do not understand is why it's okay to say something that is a belief is factual? Good points, snow. "I really do not understand the theist need to categorize an atheist into a religion?" "Yet there seems to be some kind of psychological need to say we do believe in a God and that atheism is a religion. "
My take on that is that theists just can't imagine that there really are people that don't believe there is a god. Their minds have a psychological need to refute it by calling it a "religion." That makes them feel that they are on some kind of equal footing with us.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Apr 2, 2015 2:48:20 GMT -5
Gods will is to love your God with all you heart,mind soul and strength and your neighbour as yourself. Take the Lords pray, Thy kingdom come, that's the spirit in the heart, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven that mean now this day till the end, which is not easy as the devil is with you putting stumbling blocks in the way. But with the help of God we can overcome this. Jesus did this that's who I will follow I may fall in the process but as a good boxer does they get up and fight another day Well that's pretty straightforward. It's kind of a universal teaching, except for the specific god mentioned. The red part sounds like the human responsibility. But the green part of it sounds more like asking god to do something. Doesn't the rest of it sound like taking on god's responsibility? I'm not comfortable with the "fight" part -- I thought everything I did wrong was my responsibility, not someone else's, such as the Devil's. It is yours and my responsibility because we let the devil in! Only God keeps him out. When he's in our hearts!
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Apr 2, 2015 3:09:23 GMT -5
Does that mean I don't have to listen to you then? only joking! Oh no!! Does this mean you don't believe Rational exists?? Ha ha ha! Does he? I knew someone would say that! Lol I was referring to this: 'Quote' No one listens to all the things they do not believe in to see what they might have to say. So I don't believe in a lot of the stuff rational says so I don't have to listen! Only joking! How do you just copy and paste a small piece of text and keep it in the box so you can see it's separate from what you write. So I don't have to copy the whole lot? If you (or anyone else) wouldn't mind telling me please that would be great! Thanks I can be dopey at times! ?
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Apr 2, 2015 5:01:25 GMT -5
Two men, both of whom amassed a considerable fortune in business, have lived decidedly different lifestyles. Person A is devoutly Christian, attends church regularly, and re-invests most of his wealth in his business, but now that he is retired (early) spends most of his time racing yachts. His pleasure yacht is worth well over $1 billion. Person B is an atheist/agnostic, and now that he has retired has sold all his shares, set up a multi-billion dollar foundation and spends much of his time organizing the foundation's efforts to tackle the world's diseases and improve the standard of education around the world. It strikes me that according to conventional theology, person A has a better than even chance of entering heaven, and person B, given that he remains an atheist/ agnostic, will roast in Hell eternally. How is this just, and how does this accord with the parable of the talents? Works doesnt gain you enterance? The parable of the talents is about being a good steward. Managing and making the money to work for you. Behaving in a trustworthy reliable manor with what you are responsible for. Not being wasteful and a sqanderer. Person A -attends church. It doesnt say anything about giving. Only that he reinvests back into the business. Which is good stewardship. There isnt anything wrong with a person being wealthy. Hmm. Seriously im not sure what you are asking. Is it justified he enjoys his wealth? Nothing wrong in that. Just think running his business hes provided jobs for probably many people. He is prosperous. Nothing wrong with that either. Are you asking. Does he have the right to enjoy an expensive yaught? None of this has anything to do with heaven. Are you basing your question on the 'eye of the needle'? The atheist/agnostic is motivated by love and compassion. Has the gift of giving. They are about metorphoricly knowing the correct way to operate with finance. Neither of these stories are about salvation. Yes, most churches would assume that person A gets to heaven, and I didn't aim to contest that. But clearly person B is a much better person and he is going to Hell because he is unsaved. This is a problem with theology, IMO.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Apr 2, 2015 5:06:07 GMT -5
I said the love of money is the root of all evil. If you have a lot of it and your running a a big business your mind will be full of your worldly life. If you have money, yes it's good to be kind with it. But it's better not to have it. Because it takes a hold of you. So does building up in the world. If it wasn't so, Jesus wouldn't have said what he did to the rich young ruler. Which one was Jesus like? The destitute man or the build up the business man? I follow Jesus It's interesting that you see money in opposition to everything God-like. Can't money work to good. That's the idea of stewardship, I think. Money comes in to your life, but you can imbue that money with positive purpose or you can squander it.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Apr 2, 2015 5:11:53 GMT -5
It's interesting that you see money in opposition to everything God-like. Can't money work to good. That's the idea of stewardship, I think. Money comes in to your life, but you can imbue that money with positive purpose or you can squander it. It's what you do with it, too much it's not good for us to hold on to IMO it's better to be kind with it. If we see the needy help and there are plenty of needy in the world so much so that we don't have to hold on to masses of wealth. It's better to give than to receive! As I said it's the love money that is the root of all evil!
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Apr 2, 2015 5:25:26 GMT -5
If being a Christian means following Christ then yes I am. If it means believing in a trinity and crucifying Jesus to save me then no I'm not. You are redefining christianity. I am sure there are those who have a very definite idea of the requirements to be a christian. Without the redeeming aspects of the crucifixion how do you feel about the possibility of Jesus rising from the dead?Why have you decided to follow Christ as opposed to someone else? Personally I believe a close reading of the words of Jesus come closer to what Maryhiq says than what most conventional doctrinal belief states.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 2, 2015 6:38:10 GMT -5
Well that's pretty straightforward. It's kind of a universal teaching, except for the specific god mentioned. The red part sounds like the human responsibility. But the green part of it sounds more like asking god to do something. Doesn't the rest of it sound like taking on god's responsibility? I'm not comfortable with the "fight" part -- I thought everything I did wrong was my responsibility, not someone else's, such as the Devil's. It is yours and my responsibility because we let the devil in! Only God keeps him out. When he's in our hearts! Oh yeah, blame it on the devil. Which devil are you talking about?
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Apr 2, 2015 7:21:29 GMT -5
It is yours and my responsibility because we let the devil in! Only God keeps him out. When he's in our hearts! Oh yeah, blame it on the devil. Which devil are you talking about? Where have I blamed the devil there? I've said about us letting him in! He's there to destroy us, we have free will. So do we let him in or not? How many times have you gone to do something good and then your minds been changed.? For example, your going down the street and you see a poor man, and you don't have much money but you have a tenner in your pocket. You know he needs help and you've got enough food etc and you don't need it all. You then think to yourself, I'll give him a few quid. It starts at a fiver, then straight away you think I might need that I'll give him 2 quid, then you think he might buy drugs our alcohol with it. I won't give him any. He's been judged and sentenced in 1 minute! The first one is your conscience Gods spirit prodding you to help. In jumps Satan, straight away turning our minds. Then it's our free will, which one do we listen to? Good or evil? Selfishness or kindness. It doesn't matter if it's ten pound or a thousand pound its what the persons hearts like. That person i'm talking about above is me! I've done that. But God has opened my eyes and had helped me take that hardness away. That was one my fights. We all have faults. And only by loving God and following Jesus will they start to disappear!
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 2, 2015 10:20:42 GMT -5
Heaven? What's that to and atheist? It's not there according to them so why worry about going there? I don't think it was anyone worrying about it but just wondering how theists see that situation.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 2, 2015 10:36:58 GMT -5
Step back a bit and think of it this way: Do you try to listen to the things the Flying Spaghetti Monster says? Of course not, you do not believe the FSM exists so why would you listen? No one listens to all the things they do not believe in to see what they might have to say. And... so why do you continue to engage with people who express confidence in something that has no more meaning to you than the Flying Spaghetti Monster has to most people? Why do you continue to not only listen but to engage? Why has this kind of dialog not fallen off YOUR radar screen in the same way as Zues or Thor or any other (obsolete) kind of conception of a deity has for most people in this day and age? Someone (stevo?) posted an explanation regarding atheists not hearing because they were not listening. I responded. I would engage with someone who claimed that I could not hear/understand the voice of Zeus because I was not listening for it. And why do you think the concepts of these obsolete conceptions of deities became obsolete? Because people no longer believe in the myths. The question I asked was why would a person listen only for one god when there are many claimed today. Why the claim was being made that if atheists would just listen they would hear the voice of god. My question was simply asking if the poster listened to things that they did not believe in. The FSM was just an example. I could have asked if they were paying attention to the yaoyorozu no kami. But I would never accuse them of not hearing the divine words of the FSM, for example, because they had turned a deaf ear and just were not willing to listen.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 2, 2015 10:39:41 GMT -5
Does that mean I don't have to listen to you then? ;) only joking! No joke. You do not have to listen. And the bonus is that if you do not listen and do as I say I will not condemn you!
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 2, 2015 10:43:03 GMT -5
Does that mean I don't have to listen to you then? ;) only joking! Oh no!! Does this mean you don't believe Rational exists?? ;) That is an idea that is so improbable that it is difficult to comprehend...at least for me!
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 2, 2015 10:54:17 GMT -5
Oh no!! Does this mean you don't believe Rational exists?? ;) Ha ha ha! Does he? ;) I knew someone would say that! Lol So I don't believe in a lot of the stuff rational says so I don't have to listen! Only joking! ;) It is not your belief in what I say but whether or not you think I exist. I am guessing you listen to your god because you believe s/he exists. I doubt you listen to the still small, but grating, voice of the FSM because you do not believe in that noodly entity.
|
|
stevo
New Member
Posts: 34
|
Post by stevo on Apr 2, 2015 11:45:05 GMT -5
And... so why do you continue to engage with people who express confidence in something that has no more meaning to you than the Flying Spaghetti Monster has to most people? Why do you continue to not only listen but to engage? Why has this kind of dialog not fallen off YOUR radar screen in the same way as Zues or Thor or any other (obsolete) kind of conception of a deity has for most people in this day and age? Someone (stevo?) posted an explanation regarding atheists not hearing because they were not listening. I responded. I would engage with someone who claimed that I could not hear/understand the voice of Zeus because I was not listening for it. And why do you think the concepts of these obsolete conceptions of deities became obsolete? Because people no longer believe in the myths. The question I asked was why would a person listen only for one god when there are many claimed today. Why the claim was being made that if atheists would just listen they would hear the voice of god. My question was simply asking if the poster listened to things that they did not believe in. The FSM was just an example. I could have asked if they were paying attention to the yaoyorozu no kami. But I would never accuse them of not hearing the divine words of the FSM, for example, because they had turned a deaf ear and just were not willing to listen. Rational there is many gods in this world but there is only one God for me and that's the God of love who if you let him in he will be in the heart and love conquers all.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 2, 2015 12:00:58 GMT -5
Heaven? What's that to and atheist? It's not there according to them so why worry about going there? I don't think it was anyone worrying about it but just wondering how theists see that situation. Lol@maryhig...you tell him!! Hes playing with you. Comeon ratz you already know the answer.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 2, 2015 12:09:09 GMT -5
Ha ha ha! Does he? I knew someone would say that! Lol So I don't believe in a lot of the stuff rational says so I don't have to listen! Only joking! It is not your belief in what I say but whether or not you think I exist. I am guessing you listen to your god because you believe s/he exists. I doubt you listen to the still small, but grating, voice of the FSM because you do not believe in that noodly entity. Lol..@ you existing. Its highly possible you are just a programmed answering machine. Linked to a search engine of the Britanica joined to a secret fab lab!!
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 2, 2015 12:18:11 GMT -5
Rational there is many gods in this world but there is only one God for me and that's the God of love who if you let him in he will be in the heart and love conquers all. And we are back to my question of whether you will be letting in any of the gods that you do not believe in? Yet you are suggesting that I let an entity in which I do not believe into my heart, whatever than might mean. You believe in the god of you choice and follow what you believe s/he is telling you.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Apr 2, 2015 12:18:57 GMT -5
Oh no!! Does this mean you don't believe Rational exists?? Ha ha ha! Does he? I knew someone would say that! Lol I was referring to this: 'Quote' No one listens to all the things they do not believe in to see what they might have to say. So I don't believe in a lot of the stuff rational says so I don't have to listen! Only joking! How do you just copy and paste a small piece of text and keep it in the box so you can see it's separate from what you write. So I don't have to copy the whole lot? If you (or anyone else) wouldn't mind telling me please that would be great! Thanks I can be dopey at times! ? Personally I just delete what I don't want. Rational can probably tell you a much better way though. He's pretty smart that way. But you'll have to acknowledge he exists so that he can help you with this of course...
|
|
|
Post by snow on Apr 2, 2015 12:21:36 GMT -5
It's what you do with it, too much it's not good for us to hold on to IMO it's better to be kind with it. If we see the needy help and there are plenty of needy in the world so much so that we don't have to hold on to masses of wealth. It's better to give than to receive! As I said it's the love money that is the root of all evil! But don't you need to receive in order to give?
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 2, 2015 12:28:20 GMT -5
But don't you need to receive in order to give? Not if you create!
|
|
stevo
New Member
Posts: 34
|
Post by stevo on Apr 2, 2015 12:30:08 GMT -5
Rational there is many gods in this world but there is only one God for me and that's the God of love who if you let him in he will be in the heart and love conquers all. And we are back to my question of whether you will be letting in any of the gods that you do not believe in? Yet you are suggesting that I let an entity in which I do not believe into my heart, whatever than might mean. You believe in the god of you choice and follow what you believe s/he is telling you. Can I ask what do you believe then I might be able to answer you question because am a bit confused. I have said to you what I believe to be the one true God
|
|
|
Post by snow on Apr 2, 2015 12:30:44 GMT -5
But don't you need to receive in order to give? Not if you create! Oh! Never thought of that!
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 2, 2015 12:38:41 GMT -5
And we are back to my question of whether you will be letting in any of the gods that you do not believe in? Yet you are suggesting that I let an entity in which I do not believe into my heart, whatever than might mean. You believe in the god of you choice and follow what you believe s/he is telling you. Can I ask what do you believe then I might be able to answer you question because am a bit confused. I have said to you what I believe to be the one true God I don't believe in any paranormal entity. The point is, you suggest that atheists should somehow accept a divine entity into their lives or listen for a divine voice in which they do not believe. But you do not listen for a divine voice from an entity in which you do not believe and I am guessing the idea of letting Ra (King of the Gods) into your heart is not something you consider. You are asking atheists to do something that you would not do - seek an entity in which you do not believe.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 2, 2015 12:45:10 GMT -5
Rational can probably tell you a much better way though. He's pretty smart that way. But you'll have to acknowledge he exists so that he can help you with this of course... ;) I will communicate with maryhig using other-worldly methods.
|
|
stevo
New Member
Posts: 34
|
Post by stevo on Apr 2, 2015 12:55:57 GMT -5
Can I ask what do you believe then I might be able to answer you question because am a bit confused. I have said to you what I believe to be the one true God I don't believe in any paranormal entity. The point is, you suggest that atheists should somehow accept a divine entity into their lives or listen for a divine voice in which they do not believe. But you do not listen for a divine voice from an entity in which you do not believe and I am guessing the idea of letting Ra (King of the Gods) into your heart is not something you consider. You are asking atheists to do something that you would not do - seek an entity in which you do not believe. I am not asking atheist to do anything that they don't want to do because it's up to them what they want to believe, you are given your free will I choose to do the will of the God of love but there is other gods the god of hate the god of money the god of selfishness the god of covertness and so many more that I have to fight every day and I hope seeing Jesus overcoming these things that God will help me to become more like Jesus his son every day
|
|