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Post by What Hat on Mar 30, 2015 17:10:52 GMT -5
Two men, both of whom amassed a considerable fortune in business, have lived decidedly different lifestyles.
Person A is devoutly Christian, attends church regularly, and re-invests most of his wealth in his business, but now that he is retired (early) spends most of his time racing yachts. His pleasure yacht is worth well over $1 billion.
Person B is an atheist/agnostic, and now that he has retired has sold all his shares, set up a multi-billion dollar foundation and spends much of his time organizing the foundation's efforts to tackle the world's diseases and improve the standard of education around the world.
It strikes me that according to conventional theology, person A has a better than even chance of entering heaven, and person B, given that he remains an atheist/ agnostic, will roast in Hell eternally.
How is this just, and how does this accord with the parable of the talents?
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 30, 2015 17:39:14 GMT -5
Two men, both of whom amassed a considerable fortune in business, have lived decidedly different lifestyles. Person A is devoutly Christian, attends church regularly, and re-invests most of his wealth in his business, but now that he is retired (early) spends most of his time racing yachts. His pleasure yacht is worth well over $1 billion. Person B is an atheist/agnostic, and now that he has retired has sold all his shares, set up a multi-billion dollar foundation and spends much of his time organizing the foundation's efforts to tackle the world's diseases and improve the standard of education around the world. It strikes me that according to conventional theology, person A has a better than even chance of entering heaven, and person B, given that he remains an atheist/ agnostic, will roast in Hell eternally. How is this just, and how does this accord with the parable of the talents? It is only just to those who dispense with sound moral judgment.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 30, 2015 17:51:07 GMT -5
Two men, both of whom amassed a considerable fortune in business, have lived decidedly different lifestyles. Person A is devoutly Christian, attends church regularly, and re-invests most of his wealth in his business, but now that he is retired (early) spends most of his time racing yachts. His pleasure yacht is worth well over $1 billion. Person B is an atheist/agnostic, and now that he has retired has sold all his shares, set up a multi-billion dollar foundation and spends much of his time organizing the foundation's efforts to tackle the world's diseases and improve the standard of education around the world. It strikes me that according to conventional theology, person A has a better than even chance of entering heaven, and person B, given that he remains an atheist/ agnostic, will roast in Hell eternally. How is this just, and how does this accord with the parable of the talents? You can't serve God and love money, For the love of money is the root of all evil! 1 Timothy 6:10 Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. You don't truly follow God if worldly wealth comes first!
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Post by What Hat on Mar 30, 2015 19:00:36 GMT -5
Two men, both of whom amassed a considerable fortune in business, have lived decidedly different lifestyles. Person A is devoutly Christian, attends church regularly, and re-invests most of his wealth in his business, but now that he is retired (early) spends most of his time racing yachts. His pleasure yacht is worth well over $1 billion. Person B is an atheist/agnostic, and now that he has retired has sold all his shares, set up a multi-billion dollar foundation and spends much of his time organizing the foundation's efforts to tackle the world's diseases and improve the standard of education around the world. It strikes me that according to conventional theology, person A has a better than even chance of entering heaven, and person B, given that he remains an atheist/ agnostic, will roast in Hell eternally. How is this just, and how does this accord with the parable of the talents? You can't serve God and love money, For the love of money is the root of all evil! 1 Timothy 6:10 Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. You don't truly follow God if worldly wealth comes first! I'm not entirely sure what you're saying in terms of this example. Are you saying both of these men must love money because they have it?
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Post by maryhig on Mar 30, 2015 19:38:49 GMT -5
You can't serve God and love money, For the love of money is the root of all evil! 1 Timothy 6:10 Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. You don't truly follow God if worldly wealth comes first! I'm not entirely sure what you're saying in terms of this example. Are you saying both of these men must love money because they have it? Well if they didn't love the money it would have gone to the poor! More so the Christian as he will be more accountable, the atheist might not know the Bible. The rich young ruler. Asking Jesus what must he do to inherit eternal life! Mark 10 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions. And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. With God all things are possible because with God in your heart money takes a back seat! And you see the need in others. Your money wouldn't last long, it would be gone to the poor. Because your love for God is stronger than your love for the world!
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Post by bubbles on Mar 30, 2015 19:42:31 GMT -5
Two men, both of whom amassed a considerable fortune in business, have lived decidedly different lifestyles. Person A is devoutly Christian, attends church regularly, and re-invests most of his wealth in his business, but now that he is retired (early) spends most of his time racing yachts. His pleasure yacht is worth well over $1 billion. Person B is an atheist/agnostic, and now that he has retired has sold all his shares, set up a multi-billion dollar foundation and spends much of his time organizing the foundation's efforts to tackle the world's diseases and improve the standard of education around the world. It strikes me that according to conventional theology, person A has a better than even chance of entering heaven, and person B, given that he remains an atheist/ agnostic, will roast in Hell eternally. How is this just, and how does this accord with the parable of the talents? Works doesnt gain you enterance? The parable of the talents is about being a good steward. Managing and making the money to work for you. Behaving in a trustworthy reliable manor with what you are responsible for. Not being wasteful and a sqanderer. Person A -attends church. It doesnt say anything about giving. Only that he reinvests back into the business. Which is good stewardship. There isnt anything wrong with a person being wealthy. Hmm. Seriously im not sure what you are asking. Is it justified he enjoys his wealth? Nothing wrong in that. Just think running his business hes provided jobs for probably many people. He is prosperous. Nothing wrong with that either. Are you asking. Does he have the right to enjoy an expensive yaught? None of this has anything to do with heaven. Are you basing your question on the 'eye of the needle'? The atheist/agnostic is motivated by love and compassion. Has the gift of giving. They are about metorphoricly knowing the correct way to operate with finance. Neither of these stories are about salvation.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 30, 2015 19:54:04 GMT -5
The parable of the talents is referring to the word of God! And whether we give it out or keep it to ourselves. If we give it out God will give us more. If not he will take what we have got away. And give it to the people who are doing his work.
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Post by fred on Mar 30, 2015 19:57:05 GMT -5
I'm not entirely sure what you're saying in terms of this example. Are you saying both of these men must love money because they have it? Strange sort of reasoning. If you don't have money how will you give to the poor? Let's presume that a business makes a tidy profit and the owner ploughs that back into the business - after years of toil, not only has he created money for his employees (many of whom might be poor), but he has now created sizable surpluses. With this money he is able to fund programmes which alleviate poverty in an ongoing manner. Contrast this with the man who gives every spare cent to charities, who soon finds that his business fades and fails, and he finds himself destitute. Which man do you suppose was a wise manager of God given skills and resources?
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Post by maryhig on Mar 30, 2015 20:06:13 GMT -5
I said the love of money is the root of all evil. If you have a lot of it and your running a a big business your mind will be full of your worldly life. If you have money, yes it's good to be kind with it. But it's better not to have it. Because it takes a hold of you. So does building up in the world. If it wasn't so, Jesus wouldn't have said what he did to the rich young ruler. Which one was Jesus like? The destitute man or the build up the business man? I follow Jesus
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Post by bubbles on Mar 30, 2015 20:09:15 GMT -5
Whathat I got so caught up with charity I almost put myself back into poverty. After fighting to climb out if it. A friend had to give me a good headshake to wake me up. They said something like this "if you give it all away you wont be able to help anymore. You must think of yourself as well. " I listened.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 30, 2015 20:14:54 GMT -5
Two men, both of whom amassed a considerable fortune in business, have lived decidedly different lifestyles. Person A is devoutly Christian, attends church regularly, and re-invests most of his wealth in his business, but now that he is retired (early) spends most of his time racing yachts. His pleasure yacht is worth well over $1 billion. Person B is an atheist/agnostic, and now that he has retired has sold all his shares, set up a multi-billion dollar foundation and spends much of his time organizing the foundation's efforts to tackle the world's diseases and improve the standard of education around the world. It strikes me that according to conventional theology, person A has a better than even chance of entering heaven, and person B, given that he remains an atheist/ agnostic, will roast in Hell eternally. How is this just, and how does this accord with the parable of the talents? You can't serve God and love money, For the love of money is the root of all evil! 1 Timothy 6:10 Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. You don't truly follow God if worldly wealth comes first! All you're saying is that the Christian man really isn't a Christian. Are they BOTH going to hell, then?
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 30, 2015 20:16:54 GMT -5
The parable of the talents is referring to the word of God! And whether we give it out or keep it to ourselves. If we give it out God will give us more. If not he will take what we have got away. And give it to the people who are doing his work. So are you saying that because the atheist gave it all away, he will get a reward from God?
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 30, 2015 20:18:26 GMT -5
Whathat I got so caught up with charity I almost put myself back into poverty. After fighting to climb out if it. A friend had to give me a good headshake to wake me up. They said something like this "if you give it all away you wont be able to help anymore. You must think of yourself as well. " I listened. But were you filthy rich to start with?
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Post by maryhig on Mar 30, 2015 20:21:15 GMT -5
You can't serve God and love money, For the love of money is the root of all evil! 1 Timothy 6:10 Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. You don't truly follow God if worldly wealth comes first! All you're saying is that the Christian man really isn't a Christian. Are they BOTH going to hell, then? All I'm saying is that it says in the Bible that it's wrong to love money and to build up in the world. That's if you believe. It says you can't serve God and mammon, mammon is wealth! But God knows the heart. There could be really kind people with money. It's the love of it that's wrong! God judges not me! I'm just saying what it says in the Bible. And I believe His word!
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Post by maryhig on Mar 30, 2015 20:23:32 GMT -5
The parable of the talents is referring to the word of God! And whether we give it out or keep it to ourselves. If we give it out God will give us more. If not he will take what we have got away. And give it to the people who are doing his work. So are you saying that because the atheist gave it all away, he will get a reward from God? To an atheist God doesn't exist, so how can he be rewarded by A God he says isn't there? Also why would he be spreading the word of God if he doesn't believe?
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Post by snow on Mar 30, 2015 20:52:11 GMT -5
Two men, both of whom amassed a considerable fortune in business, have lived decidedly different lifestyles. Person A is devoutly Christian, attends church regularly, and re-invests most of his wealth in his business, but now that he is retired (early) spends most of his time racing yachts. His pleasure yacht is worth well over $1 billion. Person B is an atheist/agnostic, and now that he has retired has sold all his shares, set up a multi-billion dollar foundation and spends much of his time organizing the foundation's efforts to tackle the world's diseases and improve the standard of education around the world. It strikes me that according to conventional theology, person A has a better than even chance of entering heaven, and person B, given that he remains an atheist/ agnostic, will roast in Hell eternally. How is this just, and how does this accord with the parable of the talents? They have both contributed to the welfare of others. The Christian likely by providing jobs etc and handling it well enough to continue to pay employees. The yacht probably could be seen as a self indulgence that could have been better used to help the world's more needy. The atheist/agnostic also contributes to providing jobs etc and handling it well and in retirement he has enough money to set up a foundation that will help the needy by funding the research on diseases that could cause the needy suffering. So in a sense he is actually contributing more than the devout Christian. The atheist won't be going to heaven though because there is no afterlife. But if there was a hypothetical heaven and contributing to the world's poor was a qualification for getting in, the atheist would likely be the one rewarded. But you are asking the same question I asked the workers. Their answer was why I quit professing and having any belief in the Christian God. By the rules of Christianity, a person who does not give his life to Jesus cannot enter heaven no matter what they have done in their life to make it a better place for those around them. Also, if you murder someone and then in prison give your life to God, you can get into heaven. Now you understand why atheism is a growing group. Things like this within religions that make no sense at all.
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Post by bubbles on Mar 30, 2015 21:18:40 GMT -5
Whathat I got so caught up with charity I almost put myself back into poverty. After fighting to climb out if it. A friend had to give me a good headshake to wake me up. They said something like this "if you give it all away you wont be able to help anymore. You must think of yourself as well. " I listened. But were you filthy rich to start with? Lol...strike! You make me laugh. The answer is no no no!
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 30, 2015 21:40:36 GMT -5
So are you saying that because the atheist gave it all away, he will get a reward from God? To an atheist God doesn't exist, so how can he be rewarded by A God he says isn't there? Also why would he be spreading the word of God if he doesn't believe? So are you saying that God won't reward the atheist for his moral works just because the atheist doesn't think God exists?
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 30, 2015 21:44:13 GMT -5
All you're saying is that the Christian man really isn't a Christian. Are they BOTH going to hell, then? All I'm saying is that it says in the Bible that it's wrong to love money and to build up in the world. That's if you believe. It says you can't serve God and mammon, mammon is wealth! But God knows the heart. There could be really kind people with money. It's the love of it that's wrong! God judges not me! I'm just saying what it says in the Bible. And I believe His word! I know what Christians think of Christian charity and love of money. I'm interested in how God would treat a highly virtuous non-Christian.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 22:48:11 GMT -5
All I'm saying is that it says in the Bible that it's wrong to love money and to build up in the world. That's if you believe. It says you can't serve God and mammon, mammon is wealth! But God knows the heart. There could be really kind people with money. It's the love of it that's wrong! God judges not me! I'm just saying what it says in the Bible. And I believe His word! I know what Christians think of Christian charity and love of money. I'm interested in how God would treat a highly virtuous non-Christian. Bob, I assume you are speaking here of the biblical God here and not Allah or one of the other Gods. The biblical God will treat the virtuous non Christian in exactly the same way as he treated the virtuous non Isrealite in the Old Testament or as he has promised to treat the virtuous non believer in the Book of Revelations. So believe not at your peril irrespective of your virtuosity. However, fortunately the biblical God is just a biblical creation and is not to be taken too seriously outside of theology. You'll be reassured to know that the only true God, the God of Nature, doesn't get too concerned about whether you are virtuous or not, or indeed what religion you are. The rain falls on the just and the unjust and the sun tends to rise in the east every morning irrespective of such things as honesty or sincerity or virtuosity. Alas. Matt10
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Post by rational on Mar 30, 2015 23:31:14 GMT -5
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 30, 2015 23:59:33 GMT -5
Well if they didn't love the money it would have gone to the poor! More so the Christian as he will be more accountable, the atheist might not know the Bible. Some atheists know the Bible very well, -as well as many Christians.
Some of us were Christians at one time.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 0:54:05 GMT -5
I know what Christians think of Christian charity and love of money. I'm interested in how God would treat a highly virtuous non-Christian. Bob, I assume you are speaking here of the biblical God here and not Allah or one of the other Gods. The biblical God will treat the virtuous non Christian in exactly the same way as he treated the virtuous non Isrealite in the Old Testament or as he has promised to treat the virtuous non believer in the Book of Revelations. So believe not at your peril irrespective of your virtuosity. However, fortunately the biblical God is just a biblical creation and is not to be taken too seriously outside of theology. You'll be reassured to know that the only true God, the God of Nature, doesn't get too concerned about whether you are virtuous or not, or indeed what religion you are. The rain falls on the just and the unjust and the sun tends to rise in the east every morning irrespective of such things as honesty or sincerity or virtuosity. Alas. Matt10 Somewhere between the first and second sentences I decided the rest of it couldn't make any sense. Sorry.
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Post by bubbles on Mar 31, 2015 1:03:26 GMT -5
All I'm saying is that it says in the Bible that it's wrong to love money and to build up in the world. That's if you believe. It says you can't serve God and mammon, mammon is wealth! But God knows the heart. There could be really kind people with money. It's the love of it that's wrong! God judges not me! I'm just saying what it says in the Bible. And I believe His word! I know what Christians think of Christian charity and love of money. I'm interested in how God would treat a highly virtuous non-Christian. I think the principle of reaping what you sow would apply.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 1:09:48 GMT -5
So are you saying that because the atheist gave it all away, he will get a reward from God? To an atheist God doesn't exist, so how can he be rewarded by A God he says isn't there? Also why would he be spreading the word of God if he doesn't believe? Who said anything about spreading the word of god? I was talking about the man using his wealth to help others. I'm assuming you believe there is a heaven. I guess my question to you really should be: If there is a heaven, would it not still exist if a person didn't believe it was there? Atheists and Christians inhabit the same cosmos, don't they?
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 1:12:16 GMT -5
I know what Christians think of Christian charity and love of money. I'm interested in how God would treat a highly virtuous non-Christian. I think the principle of reaping what you sow would apply. So you don't really have to be a Christian to go to heaven, then?
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Post by maryhig on Mar 31, 2015 1:36:13 GMT -5
To an atheist God doesn't exist, so how can he be rewarded by A God he says isn't there? Also why would he be spreading the word of God if he doesn't believe? Who said anything about spreading the word of god? I was talking about the man using his wealth to help others. I'm assuming you believe there is a heaven. I guess my question to you really should be: If there is a heaven, would it not still exist if a person didn't believe it was there? Atheists and Christians inhabit the same cosmos, don't they? And if you read what I had written and what you were commenting on, I was talking about the word of God! When I wrote what I did about the atheist, it was because every time people of God say things about what an atheist will do if God does this or that they reply something like this "I don't believe God exists, So why will it apply to me I don't believe in a God" So how can God reward someone who denies he's there? If he doesn't exist to you, a reward from him wouldn't be of importance to you, would it? Because we are talking about a none existing "supernatural" being according to some. I've seen some insults to God on here. I hope and pray he forgives you all that have been involved! But then again you don't believe in him anyway!
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Post by maryhig on Mar 31, 2015 1:38:27 GMT -5
I think the principle of reaping what you sow would apply. So you don't really have to be a Christian to go to heaven, then? Heaven? What's that to and atheist? It's not there according to them so why worry about going there?
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