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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 16:17:35 GMT -5
I was at our local Greek Orthodox church yesterday. I was amazed at how it bristled with security cameras - from the altar to the car park. Growing up in a more religious age, the thought of anyone attacking a church was simply insane and unthinkable. The church was sacred, holy, the seat of God. We children were told even a criminal could find refuge in a church. We took it as a “no-brainer” that here was perfect security.
And we all knew about CSA, particularly where it was most rife – in the Catholic institutions. But these institutions were noble, providing education, orphanages and hospitals – all in God’s name. You might not have been Catholic, but we all Respected the same God, and the good work done by good Catholics. AND YOU DIDN'T ATTACK THE CHURCH.
Thus God was the elephant in the room, a corrupt priest was a pin prick. But now even the very idea of God is loathsome to a growing percentage of our society – and what better way to show this than to go after the very people we ALL once excused.
Repeat, we ALL excused.
CSA in the Catholic Church goes back two thousand years. It is no coincidence that at a the very time this church is collapsing (30% of its congregation lost since 1996 in Australia) that people are going after its priests.
Not for one minute would I “support” CSA. What I do ask is this: why NOW does society take on CSA, and not at any other time in Western history, particularly when people in former ages held to higher moral standards?
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Post by Mary on Oct 10, 2014 16:51:20 GMT -5
Reminds me of the men who parade the convention grounds for security reasons.
In the past when people spoke out about being sexually abused no one would listen or believe them. Today so many people are coming out, and many in high places that the secret is out. It has always happened but no one believed the victim. Isn't that something better not worse about society today. It hasn`t just started in the last 100 years or so, it has always been there, but today it is no longer tolerated.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 17:08:59 GMT -5
Wrong, most people DID believe the stories about bad priests abusing children. It was always a scandal, and subject of black humor. But to religious, God fearing, moral people, a bigger scandal was to think of what the WHOLE WORLD would be like if God's churches were called into disrepute.
The condundrum was this: how to deal with bad priests without damaging God's church?
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Post by matisse on Oct 10, 2014 17:13:41 GMT -5
How does one determine that people in the past "held to higher moral standards"?
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Post by Mary on Oct 10, 2014 17:15:20 GMT -5
Victims have not been believed. A scandal is just that, a scandal.
Is that why the workers kept it secret? It would call your church into disrepute? How to deal with bad workers without damaging your church.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 17:22:41 GMT -5
I was at our local Greek Orthodox church yesterday. I was amazed at how it bristled with security cameras - from the altar to the car park. Growing up in a more religious age, the thought of anyone attacking a church was simply insane and unthinkable. The church was sacred, holy, the seat of God. We children were told even a criminal could find refuge in a church. We took it as a “no-brainer” that here was perfect security. And we all knew about CSA, particularly where it was most rife – in the Catholic institutions. But these institutions were noble, providing education, orphanages and hospitals – all in God’s name. You might not have been Catholic, but we all Respected the same God, and the good work done by good Catholics. AND YOU DIDN'T ATTACK THE CHURCH. Thus God was the elephant in the room, a corrupt priest was a pin prick. But now even the very idea of God is loathsome to a growing percentage of our society – and what better way to show this than to go after the very people we ALL once excused. Repeat, we ALL excused. CSA in the Catholic Church goes back two thousand years. It is no coincidence that at a the very time this church is collapsing (30% of its congregation lost since 1996 in Australia) that people are going after its priests. Not for one minute would I “support” CSA. What I do ask is this: why NOW does society take on CSA, and not at any other time in Western history, particularly when people in former ages held to higher moral standards? why now? because what is morally right/wrong in one generation may not be morally right/wrong in another...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 17:31:44 GMT -5
How does one determine that people in the past "held to higher moral standards"? Good question. First you must define what "moral" means. You will find "greenies" camped out in state forests who will tell you that cutting down a tree is "immoral" whilst thinking nothing of their hippy lifestyle is immoral. Moral once meant sexual fidelity, honesty, abstinance from drink, smoke and narcotics, going to church, community support, reputation, decency, charity etc.. Once moral living meant, for instance, that bankruptcy was shameful. Now it is becoming almost honorable, a way to evade financial responsibilities and sticking your finger up at the banks, law-makers and regulators. Once paying your fines was considered important. Now authorities have to devise all sorts of clever stategems to force people to pay their fines. (Just yesterday in the news Victorian Sheriffs now have number plate identifiers, and they can cruise around looking for the cars of fine evaders.)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 17:34:45 GMT -5
A possible answer is that people have become far more enlightened about these things and have been encouraged to report such abuses, whether they be in churches .educational institutions , day care centres, foster homes or places of employment. There was an almighty awakening and people have become more open and a little less embarrassed and ashamed to come forward. Access to the media, guidance counsellors in schools also have played a significant role in bringing these things tolight.In general people have become more educated to these realities in life and to their rights as citizens.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 17:47:01 GMT -5
Good point Partaker. But its the obvious one. I am simply looking at the flip-side of the issue.
By way of analogy. In Western societies we have ethnic groups who engage in "honor killings." It's a Bad Thing, so we say.
Through the "rule of law" we got rid of "honor killings" about the time of the Renaissance. Flipside to it all was that at the same time the concept of "family honor" was disappearing from society. So out with "honor killings" went "family honor"
And out with church sex abuse goes the church.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 10, 2014 17:50:16 GMT -5
I was at our local Greek Orthodox church yesterday. I was amazed at how it bristled with security cameras - from the altar to the car park. Growing up in a more religious age, the thought of anyone attacking a church was simply insane and unthinkable. The church was sacred, holy, the seat of God. We children were told even a criminal could find refuge in a church. We took it as a “no-brainer” that here was perfect security. And we all knew about CSA, particularly where it was most rife – in the Catholic institutions. But these institutions were noble, providing education, orphanages and hospitals – all in God’s name. You might not have been Catholic, but we all Respected the same God, and the good work done by good Catholics. AND YOU DIDN'T ATTACK THE CHURCH. Thus God was the elephant in the room, a corrupt priest was a pin prick. But now even the very idea of God is loathsome to a growing percentage of our society – and what better way to show this than to go after the very people we ALL once excused. Repeat, we ALL excused. CSA in the Catholic Church goes back two thousand years. It is no coincidence that at a the very time this church is collapsing (30% of its congregation lost since 1996 in Australia) that people are going after its priests. Not for one minute would I “support” CSA. What I do ask is this: why NOW does society take on CSA, and not at any other time in Western history, particularly when people in former ages held to higher moral standards? One reason with be the investigation initiated by Julia Gillard.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 10, 2014 17:53:48 GMT -5
Human rights. Bullying. Sexual harrassment. These are all reportable now.
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Post by fixit on Oct 10, 2014 18:11:41 GMT -5
And out with church sex abuse goes the church. If the church is unwilling or unable to distance itself from sex abuse it doesn't deserve to survive. If the church's survival requires sweeping sex abuse under the carpet, it doesn't deserve to survive. You seem to be saying that sex abuse and church are inseparable. One reason many don't attend church these days is the hypocrisy they see in churches. Frankly Bert, if the ministry was as diligent about opposition to sexual immorality as it was about outward appearance (black stockings, hats, hairdos, etc) the church would be in better shape today.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 18:13:02 GMT -5
And flipside - adultery no longer carries the death sentence divorce is legal narcotics are slowly becoming legalized vast areas of former criminal behavior are being decriminalized the notion of personal honor is vanishing respect for authority is evaporating church attendance marks you as a minority even priests often don't believe in God anymore all forms of what was considered deviant sexual behavior is now celebrated porn has moved to mainstream child porn is exploding etc..
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 18:16:55 GMT -5
Quote - "You seem to be saying that sex abuse and church are inseparable. One reason many don't attend church these days is the hypocrisy they see in churches."
Take a look at attendance figures for the Roman Catholic Church in any country over the past one hundred years. Take note of big CSA events, ie the Boston imbroglio There is no correlation with the decline in attendance.
CSA is not the cause for church decline Church decline has opened up possibilities to CSA investigation.
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Post by fixit on Oct 10, 2014 18:39:13 GMT -5
CSA is not the cause for church decline I could name several who want nothing to do with the 2x2 church because of CSA - and how the church responds to it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 18:42:52 GMT -5
And I bet some took exception to the fact that Jesus did nothing about a thief in his midst. And many took exception to the fact he didn't want the adulterous woman stoned to death. Clearly - an immoral man.
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Post by fixit on Oct 10, 2014 18:44:05 GMT -5
The abused scars will always be with them for the rest of their lives. They must learn how to forgive their abusers and forgive themselves, bad things happen to good people. WE must learn to stop demanding that victims forgive their abusers. The abuser took control from them. Let's not heap further abuse on the victims. It is their prerogative if and when they forgive.
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Post by fixit on Oct 10, 2014 18:55:33 GMT -5
And I bet some took exception to the fact that Jesus did nothing about a thief in his midst. And many took exception to the fact he didn't want the adulterous woman stoned to death. Clearly - an immoral man. Jewish law required witnesses - there were none left after they walked away one by one. Can you explain why workers and friends don't know that sexual immorality is unacceptable for people professing godliness? Do you think the church would benefit from teaching this doctrine that was considered important in the NT?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 18:58:37 GMT -5
The abused scars will always be with them for the rest of their lives. They must learn how to forgive their abusers and forgive themselves, bad things happen to good people. WE must learn to stop demanding that victims forgive their abusers. The abuser took control from them. Let's not heap further abuse on the victims. It is their prerogative if and when they forgive. ah but forgiving is one of the best ways to move on from your pain and Jesus said we must forgive...thats not to suggest that they forget about it...that also doesn't say we shouldn't report it either all CSA should be reported Mat_6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: Mat_6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 18:59:54 GMT -5
I wonder how many left the meetings because of, quote unquote, "sexual immorality" and every night sit down to a veritable feast of "sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery"
Yes, sexual immorality offends me. Leaving the meeting because I heard of someone practicing it would be justifying myself.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 19:15:19 GMT -5
WE must learn to stop demanding that victims forgive their abusers. The abuser took control from them. Let's not heap further abuse on the victims. It is their prerogative if and when they forgive. ah but forgiving is one of the best ways to move on from your pain and Jesus said we must forgive...thats not to suggest that they forget about it...that also doesn't say we shouldn't report it either all CSA should be reported Mat_6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: Mat_6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. so true God demands that victims forgive actually when one forgives it brings peace from God and takes away the pain and shame
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 19:16:54 GMT -5
I wonder how many left the meetings because of, quote unquote, "sexual immorality" and every night sit down to a veritable feast of "sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery" Yes, sexual immorality offends me. Leaving the meeting because I heard of someone practicing it would be justifying myself. one of my daughters watches some aussie shows like that
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Post by mdm on Oct 10, 2014 20:35:17 GMT -5
I wonder how many left the meetings because of, quote unquote, "sexual immorality" and every night sit down to a veritable feast of "sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery" Yes, sexual immorality offends me. Leaving the meeting because I heard of someone practicing it would be justifying myself. There is more to it then just "someone practicing" immorality: those immoral ones are sent to OUR homes and those immoral ones are usually only known because their immorality was actually reported as abuse - someone has been sexually abused or harassed. I didn't leave because someone engaged or continues to engage in immorality, but because those in place of authority don't have the moral integrity to remove such from the ministry. I haven't lost trust in the immoral ones, but in the ministry that tolerates them and cannot give me assurance that they won't send another worker known to be immoral/abusive to my home. I don't know why you feel like you need to point out a hypothetical sin of those who have left. I doubt that anyone who leaves because of certain moral standards would then go against them personally. And conversely, someone who engages in immorality would not leave, but feel quite at home in the fellowship knowing that such things are tolerated in the ministry as well.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 21:00:14 GMT -5
I don't "tolerate" sexual misconduct in someone who enters my house. That is one reason I don't own a television.
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Post by mdm on Oct 10, 2014 21:08:11 GMT -5
The condundrum was this: how to deal with bad priests without damaging God's church? Simple. Through honesty, transparency and accountability. It's not only the abuse that hurts the church. Far more damaging is the wrong dealing with the issue of abuse through dishonesty, denials and no transparency or accountability. For example, my husband remembers when in the 70's a minister in his church was found guilty of CSA. The minister was relieved of his duties and publicly dealt with. The church as a whole was not hurt, because the ministers and elders didn't participate in the evil by covering it up. It is the cover ups that hurt the church. Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 2 Corinthians 7:11-12 For see what earnestness this godly grief has produced in you, but also what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment! At every point you have proved yourselves innocent in the matter. So although I wrote to you, it was not for the sake of the one who did the wrong, nor for the sake of the one who suffered the wrong, but in order that your earnestness for us might be revealed to you in the sight of God. Isaiah 1:16-17 Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow’s cause.
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Post by mdm on Oct 10, 2014 21:11:55 GMT -5
I don't "tolerate" sexual misconduct in someone who enters my house. That is one reason I don't own a television. Me too! Can you imagine then why I would be shocked that those known to be immoral/abusers have been sent to my home by the church!?
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 10, 2014 21:12:01 GMT -5
I don't "tolerate" sexual misconduct in someone who enters my house. That is one reason I don't own a television. Bert, I hope you question the workers before they come into your home then. Do you ask them straight out or do you be subtle about it ?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 21:12:25 GMT -5
Maja You are missing the nuances of my argument.
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