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Post by faune on Oct 13, 2014 1:46:09 GMT -5
What Hat ~ I agree. However, some people who commit such terrible acts as CSA are probably so callous and unfeeling inside, that they don't connect the dots? I have no doubt that many of these characters are narcissists and unable to truly feel the pain they cause others by their actions. Forgiveness in such a case would be an act of pity, but with no desire for a relationship to be re-established due to the person's inability to understand their actions. One would also protect themselves from further harm by keeping a healthy distance from such a person when they do release them within their hearts. Forgiveness or the "letting go of the hurt feelings" can then begin the healing process in that person's life. Honestly, there have been people in my own life that I felt were beyond change and in deep need of forgiveness due to this fact. Forgiveness in such a case is a gift we give ourselves as we move on in our life and choose to release the harmful memories to God and let Him become our vindicator and healer. This isn't necessarily true faune. I have worked with many offenders and while there are some that do not seem to be able to feel empathy, more do. I have sat with quite a few offenders that would cry telling me their story and what they had done. It's not black and white. I learned to take people for who they were in total rather than just who I saw them to be because of their crime. I don't excuse what they did, but I also see their pain too. They are still human. Some have just messed up more tragically than some others. I don't advocate that people need to forgive. That is an individual decision. Forgiveness is not about the abuser and is more for the survivor to find peace. If they are not ready, then peace will not be there. It took me a long time to forgive, but I am glad I was finally able to. I have more peace. It's not ok what happened to me but letting it go did make things feel better for me. Snow ~ Thanks for sharing about the offenders side of the story. I told rational that you would be more experienced in that area than myself, since I dealt more with the victims of abuse in a group setting. I heard a lot of stories regarding child and spousal abuse where the offender was described by the victims and that was the general conclusion I drew in many cases. Also, the offenders were not incarcerated and often were abusive spouses or parents and sometimes teenagers. Perhaps spending some time behind bars does soften some hardened hearts, once they experiences consequences for their actions?
Also, forgiveness is a choice, which does benefit the survivor more than the offender. Abusive memories are painful to carry around and healing normally comes when we are ready to lay them down and let them go through a form of forgiveness or release.
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Post by matisse on Oct 13, 2014 1:56:12 GMT -5
Some Christians seem to believe that they have exclusive access to the human characteristics collectively referred to in the NT as "the fruits of the spirit." They don't. In fact, it is not clear to me that Christians are any better at exhibiting TFOTS than others. It's a process by which we seek to become a better person, better than we were before, but not necessarily better than anyone else. I also have a very liberal view of what is meant by Spirit, equating roughly to conscience. THanks, WhatHat, your presence here is one reason I am careful to say "some Christians." Can you see why I would make a statement that some Christians seem to think Christians have "exclusive access" to the human characteristics known in CHristian circles as "The Fruits of the Spirit?"
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Post by magpie on Oct 13, 2014 2:52:22 GMT -5
Faune Hi, they are so empty of N/T teachings it is a feeling of both frustration and sadness we engulf every time we think of rellys and old friendlies so blind and DEAF to Gods word and N/T teachings. We were not taught to worship and pray (The Lords Prayer was ignored ,vein repation has lost its meaning one worker said,@#$%^&*) NOW back to PAUL their psuedo Idol, TIMOTHY $, verse 2,Such teaching comes through hypocritical liars,who's consciences have been seared with a hot iron.V/3. they forbid people to marry-------- YET paul in 1 Corinthians V,5 clearly shows he and Barny were the only 2x Apostles never had a WIFE to support them in the field. Are the 2x2s blind,deaf,or dumb or all, which equals mind CONTROL,how ,with the unatural sex problems,and N/T enlightenments put forward they cannot seek an ecumenical outlook and allow the Holy Spirit to find them a Fellowship that glorifies God. Yes you you may see a bit of theological fault here and their,But how is a congretation commited to serving God in worship,prayer,teaching and not wasting the gifts, God has blessed them with,to serve Him and His less fortunate ones in a practical way.
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Post by magpie on Oct 13, 2014 3:13:48 GMT -5
We were taught Churches were there to take your money,what craooe. It has been estimated if the top church welfare groups were to stop their welfare and justice wings (including help for crimnaly abused paedophile,CSA victims,I think that includes victims and their families of 2x2 workers CSA crimes.They have popped up in some supportive situations)Australia would face bankrupcy within two years.Who do the 2x2s support neither,they told us your tax supports the poor,its not up to us,that is why you pay it,no Godly love no Godly compassion no Godly service.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 13, 2014 9:13:38 GMT -5
It's a process by which we seek to become a better person, better than we were before, but not necessarily better than anyone else. I also have a very liberal view of what is meant by Spirit, equating roughly to conscience. THanks, WhatHat, your presence here is one reason I am careful to say "some Christians." Can you see why I would make a statement that some Christians seem to think Christians have "exclusive access" to the human characteristics known in CHristian circles as "The Fruits of the Spirit?" Definitely. It's a significant part of 'brand advertising'; why our product is better than the heathen approach. The relative way of looking at it, which I posted, was advanced by C.S. Lewis, actually. One good thing about Christianity - it has rescued many a drug user and party hardy type of individual. A step up for that individual, but consider a humanist who has always lived a balanced lifestyle. Isn't that actually better than swinging between wanton indulgence and austerity. In no objective way can you say that a Christian is better than anyone else, and if we do become sanctimonious and self-righteous, fortunately, the system is self-correcting as "pride goeth before a fall", eventually. So when Christianity is sold on brand properties which equate loosely to, "we're better than everyone else", there usually isn't a sale because of so much evidence to the contrary.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 13, 2014 11:35:47 GMT -5
What Hat ~ I agree. However, some people who commit such terrible acts as CSA are probably so callous and unfeeling inside, that they don't connect the dots? I have no doubt that many of these characters are narcissists and unable to truly feel the pain they cause others by their actions. Forgiveness in such a case would be an act of pity, but with no desire for a relationship to be re-established due to the person's inability to understand their actions. One would also protect themselves from further harm by keeping a healthy distance from such a person when they do release them within their hearts. Forgiveness or the "letting go of the hurt feelings" can then begin the healing process in that person's life. Honestly, there have been people in my own life that I felt were beyond change and in deep need of forgiveness due to this fact. Forgiveness in such a case is a gift we give ourselves as we move on in our life and choose to release the harmful memories to God and let Him become our vindicator and healer. This isn't necessarily true faune. I have worked with many offenders and while there are some that do not seem to be able to feel empathy, more do. I have sat with quite a few offenders that would cry telling me their story and what they had done. It's not black and white. I learned to take people for who they were in total rather than just who I saw them to be because of their crime. I don't excuse what they did, but I also see their pain too. They are still human. Some have just messed up more tragically than some others. I don't advocate that people need to forgive. That is an individual decision. Forgiveness is not about the abuser and is more for the survivor to find peace. If they are not ready, then peace will not be there. It took me a long time to forgive, but I am glad I was finally able to. I have more peace. It's not ok what happened to me but letting it go did make things feel better for me. In posting about this subject I've been mentally referencing cases where a victim has been asked to offer forgiveness, when the abuser is going off scot-free. The case that is most clear in my mind was the life story of a woman abused by her husband in the Dutch Reformed church in the 50s and 60s, and really was wounded a second time by the responses of her friends and family in the church, as well as the church herself. She got the help she needed outside the church. She wrote a book about it, and I might be able to find it back but can't right now. But in looking at the question of healing, I ran across the following link. Unfortunately, I can't find the text, so you have to use the link to read it. It was no doubt put together by people who are close to the issue of abuse. www2.crcna.org/site_uploads/uploads/abuse/graphics/bulletin_healingpath_full.jpgA brief quote - "Justice without mercy is vengeance, and mercy without justice is weak".
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Post by faune on Oct 13, 2014 12:34:32 GMT -5
This isn't necessarily true faune. I have worked with many offenders and while there are some that do not seem to be able to feel empathy, more do. I have sat with quite a few offenders that would cry telling me their story and what they had done. It's not black and white. I learned to take people for who they were in total rather than just who I saw them to be because of their crime. I don't excuse what they did, but I also see their pain too. They are still human. Some have just messed up more tragically than some others. I don't advocate that people need to forgive. That is an individual decision. Forgiveness is not about the abuser and is more for the survivor to find peace. If they are not ready, then peace will not be there. It took me a long time to forgive, but I am glad I was finally able to. I have more peace. It's not ok what happened to me but letting it go did make things feel better for me. In posting about this subject I've been mentally referencing cases where a victim has been asked to offer forgiveness, when the abuser is going off scot-free. The case that is most clear in my mind was the life story of a woman abused by her husband in the Dutch Reformed church in the 50s and 60s, and really was wounded a second time by the responses of her friends and family in the church, as well as the church herself. She got the help she needed outside the church. She wrote a book about it, and I might be able to find it back but can't right now. But in looking at the question of healing, I ran across the following link. Unfortunately, I can't find the text, so you have to use the link to read it. It was no doubt put together by people who are close to the issue of abuse. www2.crcna.org/site_uploads/uploads/abuse/graphics/bulletin_healingpath_full.jpgA brief quote - "Justice without mercy is vengeance, and mercy without justice is weak". What Hat ~ I agree with your assessment above. Also, in most mainline churches today when a pastor or church worker commits some unthinkable act of CSA, they are immediately turned over to the police due to the criminal offense. What really bothers me is the fact that in these "one true church" scenarios, the perpetrators are usually protected and moved to another locale, while the victim is silenced by the friends and hierarchy and made to feel guilty herself for being abused. This is a grossly dysfunctional approach to any such crime! Why these criminals are not turned over to the proper authorities instead of being more concerned over the image of the "perfect way" blows my mind? The leadership within these groups seem to have all their priorities wrong to even entertain such a solution to CSA. JMT
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Post by faune on Oct 13, 2014 12:51:01 GMT -5
Snow ~ I guess I wasn't that clear in expressing what I was referring about, which is being more like Jesus, who's supposed to be our example as Christians. Without a transformation within our spirit, I doubt anybody could manifest the virtues of Christ in their lives? When Jesus spoke about being "born again" to Nicodemus, he was talking about letting go of the "works mentality" as a means of earning one's salvation and simply accepting the "free gift of God's grace" through inviting the Spirit of Christ to come into your heart and change you from the inside out. It's more like letting go of all your preconceptions of God and the man-made requirements of religion and simply opening up to the work of the Holy Spirit within your life. The fruits of the spirit is what generally follows, as found in Galatians 5, as we daily seek his guidance in our lives, confess our wrongs, and ask for forgiveness. Basically, it's a process of change involving God and ourselves in a form of relationship and hopefully the result is spiritual growth and renewal. Some Christians seem to believe that they have exclusive access to the human characteristics collectively referred to in the NT as "the fruits of the spirit." They don't. In fact, it is not clear to me that Christians are any better at exhibiting TFOTS than others. Matisse ~ I do not entertain the thought of any exclusive access to the fruits of the spirit compared to anybody else. I was simply commenting that people's whose lives have been transformed usually demonstrate the fruits of the spirit within their make-up. I also agree with you that not all people who claim to be Christians demonstrate these qualities. I personally feel it involves a personal emptying of our preconceptions about God and inviting the Holy Spirit to change our lives in ways that are needed. Even if some people don't believe in God or the work of the Holy Spirit, I feel they recognize the beauty of such characteristics in lives who seek after such a spiritual connection through meditation.
However, to discover this prize, we have to let go of any works-based mentality or man-made preconceptions about God and be more concerned with seeking the good of our fellowman ~ the rest will follow when our aim is in the right place. I enjoyed what Charles Stanley shared in this article regarding the fruits of the spirit, which also agrees with your earlier statement to some degree.
www.jesus.org/following-jesus/fruit-of-the-spirit/how-do-we-know-if-we-have-the-fruit-of-the-spirit.html
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Post by matisse on Oct 13, 2014 14:46:10 GMT -5
Some Christians seem to believe that they have exclusive access to the human characteristics collectively referred to in the NT as "the fruits of the spirit." They don't. In fact, it is not clear to me that Christians are any better at exhibiting TFOTS than others. Matisse ~ I do not entertain the thought of any exclusive access to the fruits of the spirit compared to anybody else. I was simply commenting that people's whose lives have been transformed usually demonstrate the fruits of the spirit within their make-up. I also agree with you that not all people who claim to be Christians demonstrate these qualities. I personally feel it involves a personal emptying of our preconceptions about God and inviting the Holy Spirit to change our lives in ways that are needed. Even if some people don't believe in God or the work of the Holy Spirit, I feel they recognize the beauty of such characteristics in lives who seek after such a spiritual connection through meditation.
However, to discover this prize, we have to let go of any works-based mentality or man-made preconceptions about God and be more concerned with seeking the good of our fellowman ~ the rest will follow when our aim is in the right place. I enjoyed what Charles Stanley shared in this article regarding the fruits of the spirit, which also agrees with your earlier statement to some degree.
www.jesus.org/following-jesus/fruit-of-the-spirit/how-do-we-know-if-we-have-the-fruit-of-the-spirit.html
Thanks, faune. I wasn't thinking about you when I posted. However, your examples suggest that people can only experience "character transformation" with help from God. It is my belief that the so-called "Fruits of the Spirit" are human characteristics; I haven't seen any evidence that Christians are "better at them" than non-Christians (including atheists.) Some (not all) Christians entertain the fantasy that as a group they are some kind of "light" to the rest of us in this regard. Sorry, I don't see it! I see a group delusion. I recommend that you read the exchange between WhatHat and me above....especially WhatHat's comments about Christian "Brand Advertising."
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Post by faune on Oct 13, 2014 21:51:39 GMT -5
Matisse ~ Thanks for your response! I read What Hat's post about "brand advertising" and definitely agreed with his conclusions. I also feel that some people are just more balanced than others in their basic make-up and don't need all the drama in their lives before they smarten up from abuse of drugs, alcohol, or whatever their crutch, due to consequences coming their way. However, religious groups that go to great lengths to advertise their righteousness, usually experience a humbling along the way, because pride does go before a fall. I personally believe that the genuine Christians feel no need to boast of their accomplishments and lack in a "swelled head" from spiritual pride. They are more concerned with helping their fellowman than promoting their own righteousness. What I find amazing is that all the other fruits of the spirit stem from Love, as this picture portrays below.
s302.photobucket.com/user/SiaFan_2008/media/Fruit/fruit_of_the_spirit.jpg.html
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Post by Gene on Oct 31, 2014 15:41:16 GMT -5
And flipside - adultery no longer carries the death sentence divorce is legal narcotics are slowly becoming legalized vast areas of former criminal behavior are being decriminalized the notion of personal honor is vanishing respect for authority is evaporating church attendance marks you as a minority even priests often don't believe in God anymore all forms of what was considered deviant sexual behavior is now celebrated porn has moved to mainstream child porn is exploding etc.. Proverbs 14:30 A tranquil heart gives life to the flesh, but envy makes the bones rot.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2014 11:24:22 GMT -5
As a survivor of sexual abuse as a child I find the talk of forgiveness frustrating. Victims will forgive in their time and in their way when they are ready. Not so much for the prepatrator but for their own pease. The do not need anyone telling them what or what not to do. Believe me they are well aware of all others judgement and thought toward them. I PERSONALLY found it easier to forgive the my abuser then those who have called me a lyer and judged me harshly for speaking out about abuse. Every time I read a tread like this, it is like reliving the whole nightmare over again but with the understanding of an adult. As a child I was just trying to survive, not worried about all the harsh judgements of others thank goodness. You wonder why most victims don't come forward? LOOK IN THE MIRROR. Bert
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