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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 21:19:31 GMT -5
Roselyn, what church do you belong to? Can you send me a link to that church? Has anyone there been investigated, charged or suspected of engaging in any sort of immoral behavior? If so, why are you in that church?
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 10, 2014 22:28:06 GMT -5
Bert, at this point in time I do not go to or belong to any church. You didn't answer my question, do you question the workers that you have in your home ?
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Post by Mary on Oct 10, 2014 23:07:10 GMT -5
A possible answer is that people have become far more enlightened about these things and have been encouraged to report such abuses, whether they be in churches .educational institutions , day care centres, foster homes or places of employment. There was an almighty awakening and people have become more open and a little less embarrassed and ashamed to come forward. Access to the media, guidance counsellors in schools also have played a significant role in bringing these things tolight.In general people have become more educated to these realities in life and to their rights as citizens. It has destroyed hundreds, thousands and thousands lives for many generations, because the victims do NOT learn how to deal with CSA properly themselves. They tried to buried in the back of their minds, and hope it will go away. The abused scars will always be with them for the rest of their lives. They must learn how to forgive their abusers and forgive themselves, bad things happen to good people. this post is so disturbing. You obviously know nothing about working with sexual abuse survivors. Victims have done nothing to have to forgive themselves for. Also abusers have taken enough from their victims and you are telling them they need to do more.
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Post by Mary on Oct 10, 2014 23:09:31 GMT -5
Your post puts it all back onto the victim.
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Post by fixit on Oct 11, 2014 2:09:15 GMT -5
WE must learn to stop demanding that victims forgive their abusers. The abuser took control from them. Let's not heap further abuse on the victims. It is their prerogative if and when they forgive. ah but forgiving is one of the best ways to move on from your pain and Jesus said we must forgive...thats not to suggest that they forget about it...that also doesn't say we shouldn't report it either all CSA should be reported Mat_6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: Mat_6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. I expected someone would bring that up Wally. Forgiveness might come at some stage, but telling a victim to forgive the abuser is adding further abuse. Control was taken from them by force, and they must be in full control of any forgiveness process. No one has the right to tell the victim to forgive.
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Post by Mary on Oct 11, 2014 3:06:02 GMT -5
this post is so disturbing. You obviously know nothing about working with sexual abuse survivors. Victims have done nothing to have to forgive themselves for. Also abusers have taken enough from their victims and you are telling them they need to do more. hmmmmm.... I have been there...Raped like many victims over many years by a family member? Not asking you to answer it - just to think about it.
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Post by magpie on Oct 11, 2014 6:52:07 GMT -5
Celibate Ministeries and that unatural demand is not biblical,so an extension of that is unatural behaviour,many choose to give their lives to Gods service,Eg Mother Teresa,those in refugee,epidodemic, 3rd world situations,aids,lepers,also in our very own towns,etc. But many with the unatural urges including those of the paedophilia mental disorder so often thought this unatural unbiblical vocation would distance them from their illness. Paedophelia can often be controled by medications along with strong Pastoral/professional counselling,but it is only a fragile control.So any study of any celibate group or ministry(for the first few centuries A.D, Roman Catholics priests married)you will find per capita a terrible percentage of adultry,both female & male homosexuality and worst of all Child Sexual Abuse "CSA"(Paedophilia)NON MORE SO (per capita) than in the 2x2s,secret sect,Irvine doctorine followers,psuedo no namers,judgers of heavenly worthies (or nots)Filthy discusting lot that cover the real crimes by denial,ostracisms,gossiping,turning their backs on victims,especially if the victim seeks answers and justice. No wonder exs,suffer so much,as Gods love was not where they were taught to believe it was.NO "come unto me all who are heavy ladened","no" workers are not interested in your burden it is to much of a bother for their lazy ways. I am ex victim living now with and enjoying Gods Grace. My mission now is to help protect our (your) vulnerable children from ever being left alone with those vultures you believe in and trust,.. Wasnt Jack,Allan,Monty,Bruce,John,Lucy,Hilda,Georgie,Chris C,Ernie B,etc,etc (plus adulterers and had to get marrieds) all in your and previous generations trustworthy lovely (we thought)folk,the wouldnt harm any of our precious children?? So why is this board concentrating on the Romam Catholics?? Diverting away from the beam in 2x2s eyes is an ancient practice started by Irvine when he made his early partners to preach John Wesely will be burning in hell,sacked a young preacher becaused he refused to preach this ( found in an old Irish news paper.Please remain at home and clean up a currupt CSA infested ministry,soon to have all revealed via that Royal Commission?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2014 7:14:23 GMT -5
Your post puts it all back onto the victim. Yes I know what you mean. It is the victim's fault for looking so enticing, tempting, vulnerable and available in the wrong place but at the right time for the abuser, probably after some "kind and friendly Grooming" right? Hell no! not that way at all.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2014 7:36:54 GMT -5
I was at our local Greek Orthodox church yesterday. I was amazed at how it bristled with security cameras - from the altar to the car park. Growing up in a more religious age, the thought of anyone attacking a church was simply insane and unthinkable. The church was sacred, holy, the seat of God. We children were told even a criminal could find refuge in a church. We took it as a “no-brainer” that here was perfect security. And we all knew about CSA, particularly where it was most rife – in the Catholic institutions. But these institutions were noble, providing education, orphanages and hospitals – all in God’s name. You might not have been Catholic, but we all Respected the same God, and the good work done by good Catholics. AND YOU DIDN'T ATTACK THE CHURCH. Thus God was the elephant in the room, a corrupt priest was a pin prick. But now even the very idea of God is loathsome to a growing percentage of our society – and what better way to show this than to go after the very people we ALL once excused. Repeat, we ALL excused. CSA in the Catholic Church goes back two thousand years. It is no coincidence that at a the very time this church is collapsing (30% of its congregation lost since 1996 in Australia) that people are going after its priests. Not for one minute would I “support” CSA. What I do ask is this: why NOW does society take on CSA, and not at any other time in Western history, particularly when people in former ages held to higher moral standards? Why now? perhaps the time is right, and it is time to put houses/churches in order, for tomorrow we may die. Perhaps we should all pray to God and ask Him for 15 + more years to put our houses/churches in order.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 11, 2014 8:11:04 GMT -5
The abused scars will always be with them for the rest of their lives. They must learn how to forgive their abusers and forgive themselves, bad things happen to good people. WE must learn to stop demanding that victims forgive their abusers. The abuser took control from them. Let's not heap further abuse on the victims. It is their prerogative if and when they forgive. I repeat this every time the subject comes up, but I'm convinced there can be no expectation of forgiveness without justice and then repentance on the part of the perpetrator.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 11, 2014 8:12:25 GMT -5
WE must learn to stop demanding that victims forgive their abusers. The abuser took control from them. Let's not heap further abuse on the victims. It is their prerogative if and when they forgive. ah but forgiving is one of the best ways to move on from your pain and Jesus said we must forgive...thats not to suggest that they forget about it...that also doesn't say we shouldn't report it either all CSA should be reported Mat_6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: Mat_6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Is there an example in the Bible of someone forgiving without the perpetrator first being brought to justice? (This is a point I am curious about.)
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Post by What Hat on Oct 11, 2014 8:26:57 GMT -5
Good point Partaker. But its the obvious one. I am simply looking at the flip-side of the issue. By way of analogy. In Western societies we have ethnic groups who engage in "honor killings." It's a Bad Thing, so we say. Through the "rule of law" we got rid of "honor killings" about the time of the Renaissance. Flipside to it all was that at the same time the concept of "family honor" was disappearing from society. So out with "honor killings" went "family honor" And out with church sex abuse goes the church. So, I believe your analysis is that 'child sexual abuse' is the flip-side of 'morality', and that if we are to have a strong, moral church or even a strong, moral society in general, we may have effects like 'honor killings' or 'child sexual abuse'. This subject has been analysed by men wiser than you and I, but the (modern cultural philosophers like Foucoult) introduce the concept of 'norms' as distinct from 'morals'. Morals do not really change from generation to generation; norms do. There is no question that the power of 'norms' have slipped in Western society. But has this lead to a concomitant slippage in people's moral behaviour? It may well have, because norms, which work in the form of various social pressures can influence some individuals to a more moral life. But they also lead to hypocrisy, where people follow the 'norm' but try to get away with behaviour that can only be called immoral. An illustration of the difference might be the Vietnam War, where many men were drafted and went to war because they thought that was the right thing. It certainly was the expected thing to do, the 'norm'. But would a draft resister be less 'moral' than someone who just followed the 'norm'? I won't answer the question, other than to illustrate that norms might even be immoral. And often are. I continue to see a strong desire on the part of many individuals to live a moral life, even though societal norms are shifting, and the norms of many people might not be satisfactory as far as you or I are concerned, especially in the area of sexual behaviour. [edited to elaborate] I note that younger people seem to be more open sexually and promiscuous behaviour does not have the taboo it once had. But the search and longing for a single life partner, on the part of most young people - that has not changed. Most young people are not at all promiscuous, although they may work through more episodes before they settle down to a single partner. I'm not saying this is better or worse - it's better in some ways and worse in others. However, one startling fact is that teenage pregnancy has been declining steadily for 20 years. I know what you're thinking, but even more surprisingly, the incidence of premarital sex at high school age has also declined. So the thesis of an 'end time' or 'decline in civilisation as a whole' is greatly overrated. So the last question, was Rahab the harlot a strong, moral person? I mean, while she was practicing her harlotry, before she encountered Joshua's spies.
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Post by mdm on Oct 11, 2014 8:37:29 GMT -5
Maja You are missing the nuances of my argument. Either way, thank you for bringing up the subject of CSA, because it still needs to be talked about - overseers are still not able to give clear guidelines regarding CSA to their staff, let alone to the rest of the church.
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Post by mdm on Oct 11, 2014 8:46:23 GMT -5
Yes I know what you mean. It is the victim's fault for looking so enticing, tempting, vulnerable and available in the wrong place but at the right time for the abuser, probably after some "kind and friendly Grooming" right? Hell no! not that way at all. Exactly. We were told that overseers "used to think" that the problem was in the child (or woman), and the solution was in moving the offender away from the child (or woman). The focus was always and still is on protecting the offender. There is even a mantra that is used by overseers: "We don't want to destroy a man." This of course refers to the abuser, not the victim or future potential victims.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2014 11:19:32 GMT -5
ah but forgiving is one of the best ways to move on from your pain and Jesus said we must forgive...thats not to suggest that they forget about it...that also doesn't say we shouldn't report it either all CSA should be reported Mat_6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: Mat_6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Is there an example in the Bible of someone forgiving without the perpetrator first being brought to justice? (This is a point I am curious about.) yes, the most obvious. Jesus forgave while on the cross the perpetrators of his execution without them being brought to justice... Luk_23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2014 11:51:58 GMT -5
Is there an example in the Bible of someone forgiving without the perpetrator first being brought to justice? (This is a point I am curious about.) yes, the most obvious. Jesus forgave while on the cross the perpetrators of his execution without them being brought to justice... Luk_23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. Yes, that is an appropriate example, however Jesus knew all along what would be the final outcome and He was willing to make that ultimate sacrifice, His heavenly father was also part of the agreement. It was all planned that way. Here on earth victims are not willing partners in unlawful immoral abuse and moreover the abusers know exactly what they are doing, They know that it is an unlawful violation spiritually, and morally, in accordance with natural justice in most jurisdictions worldwide.
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Post by Gene on Oct 11, 2014 12:19:31 GMT -5
How does one determine that people in the past "held to higher moral standards"? My thought exactly, especially when, in the same breath, one states that people in the past tolerated CSA.
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Post by rational on Oct 11, 2014 14:21:07 GMT -5
A possible answer is that people have become far more enlightened about these things and have been encouraged to report such abuses, whether they be in churches .educational institutions , day care centres, foster homes or places of employment. There was an almighty awakening and people have become more open and a little less embarrassed and ashamed to come forward. Access to the media, guidance counsellors in schools also have played a significant role in bringing these things tolight.In general people have become more educated to these realities in life and to their rights as citizens. A short history of child protection - Attachment Deleted
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 11, 2014 14:37:05 GMT -5
Bert, I am thinking that the decline of religion may be because there is so much on offer out there in the big wide world. However I am not even sure that it is in decline as there seems to be statistics to support both views. You also mention in your opening post that "people in former ages held to higher moral standards" I have read a bit of history about crime in England. This was about 30 years ago so I'm a bit vague now on stats and authors. However the impression I gained was that crime such as murder, rape, robbery and so on was many times higher. I am referring to the period that we have written records of, going back to about 1000AD What impressed me most was the immoral behaviour of the aristocratic class. Porn in some form has always been available, vice has always been present in society. So I think that your statement may very well be wide of the mark.
I know many couples who I count as friends, who have never married, have always been with each other and have the highest morals. Some of these people I have spent weeks with on arduous travels, a good place to get to know what people are really like.
I guess it's what you let your mind dwell on, who you mix with, what you read and look at. I prefer to keep myself busy doing positive activities rather than dwell on what other people get up to and there would be many like me.
Having said that, immoral behaviour amongst a group whether that be the local Scouts or your church or whatever does raise concern. particularly the reaction to it by those at the top of the ladder. Sweeping stuff under the carpet does a group immense damage as many are now finding out. It also brings into question the morals of those that do hide such stuff.
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Post by fixit on Oct 11, 2014 14:44:54 GMT -5
So the last question, was Rahab the harlot a strong, moral person? I mean, while she was practicing her harlotry, before she encountered Joshua's spies. Like many if not most prostitutes, Rahab may have been sexually abused. Societies have been good at condemning prostitution while turning a blind eye to its causes. Having said that: was Rahab a prostitute or an inn keeper?
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Post by faune on Oct 11, 2014 14:49:56 GMT -5
It has destroyed hundreds, thousands and thousands lives for many generations, because the victims do NOT learn how to deal with CSA properly themselves. They tried to buried in the back of their minds, and hope it will go away. The abused scars will always be with them for the rest of their lives. They must learn how to forgive their abusers and forgive themselves, bad things happen to good people. this post is so disturbing. You obviously know nothing about working with sexual abuse survivors. Victims have done nothing to have to forgive themselves for. Also abusers have taken enough from their victims and you are telling them they need to do more. Mary ~ Ditto! Victims of CSA have suffered plenty due to the controlling and warped behaviors of predators! However, perhaps Nathan was referring to the part that forgiveness plays in the healing process and the benefits it affords the victim? I find it hard to believe he was indicating by his words that the CSA offenders should be given a free pass, as if nothing happened to violate the person involved, and to store the matter away in the recesses of your mind? I believe what a victim need to realize the narcissistic qualities of any person who would commit such acts and how really out of touch they are in reality with their own emotions and behavior. In many cases, the same people were abused themselves when young and are working out their own demons by inflicting the same pain on others. Not a good choice, but perverted or warped minds don't usually think logically, IMHO. They may be clever as con men, but they lack heartfelt feelings for others which makes it easier to commit such horrible acts against a child in the first place.
www.csbsju.edu/chp/sexual-assault-survivors-guide
www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-legacy-distorted-love/201109/is-forgiveness-possible-when-it-involves-child-abuse
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Post by rational on Oct 11, 2014 15:08:28 GMT -5
But many with the unatural urges including those of the paedophilia mental disorder so often thought this unatural unbiblical vocation would distance them from their illness. Paedophelia can often be controled by medications along with strong Pastoral/professional counselling,but it is only a fragile control.So any study of any celibate group or ministry(for the first few centuries A.D, Roman Catholics priests married)you will find per capita a terrible percentage of adultry,both female & male homosexuality and worst of all Child Sexual Abuse "CSA"(Paedophilia)NON MORE SO (per capita) than in the 2x2s,secret sect,Irvine doctorine followers,psuedo no namers,judgers of heavenly worthies (or nots)Filthy discusting lot... Do you have any data to show that there is a higher rate of pedophilia in celibate individuals? Since the rate of pedophilia is found to be about the same among heterosexuals, homosexuals, married, unmarried, etc individuals what leads you to believe celibacy is a cause? In studies done regarding the RCC and the rate of offending priests was found to be the same rate non-priests. You seem to be implying that there is a higher rate of abusers within the F&W. What leads you to that conclusion?
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Post by rational on Oct 11, 2014 15:25:11 GMT -5
this post is so disturbing. You obviously know nothing about working with sexual abuse survivors. Victims have done nothing to have to forgive themselves for. Also abusers have taken enough from their victims and you are telling them they need to do more. Many posts are disturbing. The current 'treatment' of victims may not always be in their best interests. Tactics like believing the victims need to forgive their abusers or treating them in a way that assumes they are 'damaged' goods may be doing more harm than good. Not all victims react the same and not all victims should be lumped into the same mold for treatment. Some of the steps being taken need to be examined. For example, in the US the sex offender laws have been questioned by professionals as perhaps having a negative overall effect on the efforts to reduce sexual child abuse.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2014 16:45:22 GMT -5
So the last question, was Rahab the harlot a strong, moral person? I mean, while she was practicing her harlotry, before she encountered Joshua's spies. Like many if not most prostitutes, Rahab may have been sexually abused. Societies have been good at condemning prostitution while turning a blind eye to its causes. Having said that: was Rahab a prostitute or an inn keeper? Jos_6:25 And Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive, and her father's household, and all that she had; and she dwelleth in Israel even unto this day; because she hid the messengers, which Joshua sent to spy out Jericho. i'd say prostitute...
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 11, 2014 17:01:55 GMT -5
Wally, do you think that her prostituting herself was a bad thing or immoral. Was her act of hiding the messengers a sign that she had another side to her character?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2014 18:49:01 GMT -5
Wally, do you think that her prostituting herself was a bad thing or immoral. Was her act of hiding the messengers a sign that she had another side to her character? yes it was a bad thing/immoral. her act of hiding the spies was her turnaround from her former life...remember they kept her outside the camp of isreal for a time afterwards...
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Post by Mary on Oct 11, 2014 19:03:03 GMT -5
I don't "tolerate" sexual misconduct in someone who enters my house. That is one reason I don't own a television. Is that the reason you do not have the internet? The internet is worse you know. It is a playing field for sexual infidelity, sexual predators, filth, gambling, and so on. Bert, you are good at condemning Christians and non Christians for immoral behaviour but it exists in your own church. Every finger you point to someone else you have 2 pointing back to you. Fornication, adultery, homosexuality, child sexual abuse.......exist in your church. In mainstream churches people are put out of ministry for such things, in meetings the workers just get moved to another area. They are beginning to own up to such things only because those outside have opened up the can of worms. Are homosexual workers put out or is it still being ignored?
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 11, 2014 19:20:50 GMT -5
I don't "tolerate" sexual misconduct in someone who enters my house. That is one reason I don't own a television. Bert, I hope you question the workers before they come into your home then. Do you ask them straight out or do you be subtle about it ?
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