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Post by bubbles on Oct 11, 2014 19:26:56 GMT -5
My brother never held back questions to workers re : their sexuality. I was horrified. As a veril man he thought it an obvious question. Pops cringed. Would try to correct him. Bro would laugh and ask why?
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Post by What Hat on Oct 11, 2014 19:28:25 GMT -5
Wally, do you think that her prostituting herself was a bad thing or immoral. Was her act of hiding the messengers a sign that she had another side to her character? yes it was a bad thing/immoral. her act of hiding the spies was her turnaround from her former life...remember they kept her outside the camp of isreal for a time afterwards... But she had it in her to do the right thing. And we don't know why she became a harlot in the first place; I don't think we should judge. The "hooker with a heart of gold" is a figure that comes up a lot in literature through the ages. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooker_with_a_heart_of_gold
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Post by magpie on Oct 11, 2014 20:07:10 GMT -5
tony campolo-the birthday party Get on the Webb and watch it now,and ask yourself before and for God would "I"?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2014 20:12:56 GMT -5
WE must learn to stop demanding that victims forgive their abusers. The abuser took control from them. Let's not heap further abuse on the victims. It is their prerogative if and when they forgive. I repeat this every time the subject comes up, but I'm convinced there can be no expectation of forgiveness without justice and then repentance on the part of the perpetrator. i forgave without without justice and then repentance on the part of the perpetrator don't forget that God if one believes in Him is the judge in the end for all eternity if one believes in that
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2014 20:14:46 GMT -5
ah but forgiving is one of the best ways to move on from your pain and Jesus said we must forgive...thats not to suggest that they forget about it...that also doesn't say we shouldn't report it either all CSA should be reported Mat_6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: Mat_6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Is there an example in the Bible of someone forgiving without the perpetrator first being brought to justice? (This is a point I am curious about.) yes, Jesus on the cross and before the cross and during His ministry
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Post by What Hat on Oct 11, 2014 22:44:48 GMT -5
How can you forgive someone when they have not admitted a wrong? Would the Prodigal be admitted back into the Master's house if he had not said, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son." What if he had come back and said, "Father, the money's gone, I had a great time while it lasted, but that's over, and now I'm looking forward to that fatted calf. Let's party on".
Somehow, I don't think so.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 11, 2014 22:52:29 GMT -5
Something else I just noticed.
Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
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Post by rational on Oct 11, 2014 22:52:36 GMT -5
Like many if not most prostitutes, Rahab may have been sexually abused. Rahab may or may not have been a victim of child abuse. A survey done in 2012 includes the follow in its results: Women became prostitutes for many different reasons, but they often feel stigmatised by society as needing help to stop their work (fewer than half of the prostitutes have considered stopping), instead of society respecting their choice of work.
Child abuse is often regarded as a reason for prostitution by the media, politicians and general public, who feel the prostitutes need help to stop their work. Street prostitutes are more likely than clinic prostitutes to have drug problems.
But the survey produced no clear conclusion on this – some prostitutes were abused as children, others were not.
The survey showed that most prostitutes were in it for the money. The number 2 reason, according to the prostitutes, was their own sexuality and sexual curiosity. Excerpt from a report from Office of Justice Programs, National Criminal Justice Reference Service: These and other findings have been the basis for theories linking childhood sexual abuse to the development of deviant and criminal behavior later in life. Among researchers as well as clinicians, acceptance of this link is fairly widespread. However, as a review of research into the impact of childhood sexual abuse has indicated, the empirical evidence may not be sufficient to justify this acceptance. And, a recent review of the long-term effects of childhood sexual abuse-- which cited sexual disturbance, depression, suicide, revictimization, and postsexual abuse syndrome--noted criminal consequences only in passing.(emphasis added) It is of little benefit to the victims of child sexual abuse to continue to promote the unsupported idea that there is a high probability that they will develop deviant and criminal behaviors later in life. There certainly may be other problems but criminal consequences is too far down the list to make claims like "Like many if not most prostitutes, Rahab may have been sexually abused."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2014 23:43:51 GMT -5
How can you forgive someone when they have not admitted a wrong? Would the Prodigal be admitted back into the Master's house if he had not said, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son." What if he had come back and said, "Father, the money's gone, I had a great time while it lasted, but that's over, and now I'm looking forward to that fatted calf. Let's party on". Somehow, I don't think so. because you know they have done wrong to you regardless of what they know those who put Jesus on the cross didn't think or admit they had done wrong but He still forgave them you'er welcome to follow what transpired for the prodical but Jesus is my choice
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 11, 2014 23:55:01 GMT -5
How can you forgive someone when they have not admitted a wrong? Would the Prodigal be admitted back into the Master's house if he had not said, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son." What if he had come back and said, "Father, the money's gone, I had a great time while it lasted, but that's over, and now I'm looking forward to that fatted calf. Let's party on". Somehow, I don't think so. because you know they have done wrong to you regardless of what they know those who put Jesus on the cross didn't think or admit they had done wrong but He still forgave them you'er welcome to follow what transpired for the prodical but Jesus is my choice The difference is we are not Jesus ! As has been said before it was part of God's plan for Jesus to be crucified.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 12, 2014 8:29:09 GMT -5
How can you forgive someone when they have not admitted a wrong? Would the Prodigal be admitted back into the Master's house if he had not said, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son." What if he had come back and said, "Father, the money's gone, I had a great time while it lasted, but that's over, and now I'm looking forward to that fatted calf. Let's party on". Somehow, I don't think so. because you know they have done wrong to you regardless of what they know those who put Jesus on the cross didn't think or admit they had done wrong but He still forgave them you'er welcome to follow what transpired for the prodical but Jesus is my choice To forgive under any circumstance is a great thing, and that is what Jesus did, and asked us to contemplate forgiveness. However, to expect or advise forgiveness is quite a different thing, and this is what posters here are coming close to doing - advising abusers of sexual abuse that they should forgive. First, to advise or expect someone to forgive can be impertinent and overbearing. Forgiveness is not something you should demand or expect of someone else. It's a gift that comes out of a heart service, not a requirement. There are times when it could be requested; say two brothers have been squabbling about one or another business issue; a trusted intermediary might offer such advice. Generally, forgiveness is a place a person can come to, but shouldn't be pushed or coerced. The situation I'm mentally referencing in this discussion is where someone, who has power over someone else, offends a vulnerable person. Child sexual abuse and sexual harassment come into mind, where a trusted minister has power over a vulnerable woman or child. To expect or request forgiveness of the victim in such a case, without justice being served, in the first place, and penitence of the accused, in the second, is ill-advised, insensitive, and possibly abusive.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 12, 2014 8:34:29 GMT -5
because you know they have done wrong to you regardless of what they know those who put Jesus on the cross didn't think or admit they had done wrong but He still forgave them you'er welcome to follow what transpired for the prodical but Jesus is my choice The difference is we are not Jesus ! As has been said before it was part of God's plan for Jesus to be crucified. Good point. I'm thinking that it's pretty high minded to turn the example of Jesus into an expectation for others' behaviour. You might, if you were not careful, be saying, "we expect nothing less than perfection", and using the cross like a goad. This could be inadvertent.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 12, 2014 8:48:12 GMT -5
How can you forgive someone when they have not admitted a wrong? Would the Prodigal be admitted back into the Master's house if he had not said, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son." What if he had come back and said, "Father, the money's gone, I had a great time while it lasted, but that's over, and now I'm looking forward to that fatted calf. Let's party on". Somehow, I don't think so. because you know they have done wrong to you regardless of what they know those who put Jesus on the cross didn't think or admit they had done wrong but He still forgave them you'er welcome to follow what transpired for the prodical but Jesus is my choice I've thought about this more in a Biblical sense. I think you might be saying that Jesus would accept the Prodigal under any circumstances. I think that's what you mean when you say you'd follow Jesus over the Master of the house as to how to handle an unrepentant Prodigal. If I've extended your point where you didn't want to go, I apologize. I've thought a bit about this since your and wally's original posts. It strikes me that if the Master just let the Prodigal come back without repentance, he would be 'enabling' the Prodigal's dissipated lifestyle. I've also been thinking how important repentance is, not only to being accepted by God into His kingdom, but to enable us to live peaceably with others, and to overcome wrong. In the case of Jesus on the Cross, what he said was, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." I'm not sure repentance is out of the equation here. First, Jesus is not forgiving them; he's asking the Father to forgive. This is not heartlessness on the part of Jesus, but how can you offer forgiveness to someone who doesn't even know they've committed a wrong. Certainly, Jesus was in the spirit of offering forgiveness, but by asking forgiveness of the Father, he was referencing a later point in time when the crucifiers would see their wrong, and, wouldn't be too much of a stretch, that they would then repent of their wrong. This would happen in front of the Father's throne in eternity. I think I'm correct in thinking that we'll all see our wrongs clearly at that time. In that situation, imagine if one of the Roman said, "I didn't do anything wrong, I won't repent, we had to crucify your Son". Will the Father be able to offer forgiveness? This is purely a hypothetical question so I won't presume to answer, but it is something to think about. Regardless, I don't think forgiveness works very well without repentance.
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Post by faune on Oct 12, 2014 13:43:44 GMT -5
Something else I just noticed. Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. What Hat ~ I agree. However, some people who commit such terrible acts as CSA are probably so callous and unfeeling inside, that they don't connect the dots? I have no doubt that many of these characters are narcissists and unable to truly feel the pain they cause others by their actions. Forgiveness in such a case would be an act of pity, but with no desire for a relationship to be re-established due to the person's inability to understand their actions. One would also protect themselves from further harm by keeping a healthy distance from such a person when they do release them within their hearts. Forgiveness or the "letting go of the hurt feelings" can then begin the healing process in that person's life. Honestly, there have been people in my own life that I felt were beyond change and in deep need of forgiveness due to this fact. Forgiveness in such a case is a gift we give ourselves as we move on in our life and choose to release the harmful memories to God and let Him become our vindicator and healer.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 12, 2014 13:57:25 GMT -5
I'm finding this conversation interesting and just a little disturbing. I see that so many don't believe it is possible to be as 'good' as Jesus. I assume that is because people have decided he is God or has some other more esteemed status than the ordinary person. So when Jesus said ye are all gods, why are so many reluctant to take him at his word? For me, Jesus was a man that understood the value of love and compassion. I don't think he was any more esteemed than anyone else, he just understood the value and worked harder at it. When we see him as 'having an advantage' over us, it releases us from the responsibility of working as hard as he did at love and compassion. We then believe his level isn't attainable by a 'mere mortal'. This is not a good philosophy imo, because it limits us, makes us less responsible for becoming the most loving and compassionate being that can exist. If we understood Jesus as like us and not 'above' us then maybe there would be more motivation to achieve those levels? We think we can do so little about the world. Some believe it's pointless, but never forget the power of one. Jesus seemed to understand this and he sure changed the world. And, that's how our world will change to a more loving and compassionate place, one person at a time. That old adage, 'be the change you wish to see' isn't just vacant words. It's truly how to make a difference, even if it's only in your little area of the world. If your love and compassion changes just one other person, that just increased your little area didn't it. Jesus did say, "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect". There's no question here of not 'trying' to be as good as Jesus. However, in looking at the actions of others, and not ourselves, perhaps it's best not to use Jesus as the yardstick.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 12, 2014 13:58:39 GMT -5
Something else I just noticed. Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. What Hat ~ I agree. However, some people who commit such terrible acts as CSA are probably so callous and unfeeling inside, that they don't connect the dots? I have no doubt that many of these characters are narcissists and unable to truly feel the pain they cause others by their actions. Forgiveness in such a case would be an act of pity, but with no desire for a relationship to be re-established due to the person's inability to understand their actions. One would also protect themselves from further harm by keeping a healthy distance from such a person when they do release them within their hearts. Forgiveness or the "letting go of the hurt feelings" can then begin the healing process in that person's life. Honestly, there have been people in my own life that I felt were beyond change and in deep need of forgiveness due to this fact. Forgiveness in such a case is a gift we give ourselves as we move on in our life and choose to release the harmful memories to God and let Him become our vindicator and healer. I'm not arguing against forgiveness, but an expectation and exhortation toward forgiveness. Which you probably knew.
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Post by faune on Oct 12, 2014 14:01:30 GMT -5
I'm finding this conversation interesting and just a little disturbing. I see that so many don't believe it is possible to be as 'good' as Jesus. I assume that is because people have decided he is God or has some other more esteemed status than the ordinary person. So when Jesus said ye are all gods, why are so many reluctant to take him at his word? For me, Jesus was a man that understood the value of love and compassion. I don't think he was any more esteemed than anyone else, he just understood the value and worked harder at it. When we see him as 'having an advantage' over us, it releases us from the responsibility of working as hard as he did at love and compassion. We then believe his level isn't attainable by a 'mere mortal'. This is not a good philosophy imo, because it limits us, makes us less responsible for becoming the most loving and compassionate being that can exist. If we understood Jesus as like us and not 'above' us then maybe there would be more motivation to achieve those levels? We think we can do so little about the world. Some believe it's pointless, but never forget the power of one. Jesus seemed to understand this and he sure changed the world. And, that's how our world will change to a more loving and compassionate place, one person at a time. That old adage, 'be the change you wish to see' isn't just vacant words. It's truly how to make a difference, even if it's only in your little area of the world. If your love and compassion changes just one other person, that just increased your little area didn't it. Snow ~ I believe it would be impossible for us to be anything like Jesus except for the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit on the inside as a result of being born again of the Spirit and transformed from the inside out from inviting Christ into our lives. I'm reminded of what it says in Colossians 1:27 about "Christ in you, the hope of glory." For this to take place, a person has to be "born again" of the Spirit and cleansed by its influence over our lives, transforming us from the inside out, as Jesus brought out in his conversation with Nicodemus in John 3.
biblehub.com/colossians/1-27.htm
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+3
www.gty.org/resources/bible-qna/BQ072413/what-does-it-mean-to-be-born-of-water-and-spirit
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Post by faune on Oct 12, 2014 14:37:49 GMT -5
What Hat ~ I agree. However, some people who commit such terrible acts as CSA are probably so callous and unfeeling inside, that they don't connect the dots? I have no doubt that many of these characters are narcissists and unable to truly feel the pain they cause others by their actions. Forgiveness in such a case would be an act of pity, but with no desire for a relationship to be re-established due to the person's inability to understand their actions. One would also protect themselves from further harm by keeping a healthy distance from such a person when they do release them within their hearts. Forgiveness or the "letting go of the hurt feelings" can then begin the healing process in that person's life. Honestly, there have been people in my own life that I felt were beyond change and in deep need of forgiveness due to this fact. Forgiveness in such a case is a gift we give ourselves as we move on in our life and choose to release the harmful memories to God and let Him become our vindicator and healer. I'm not arguing against forgiveness, but an expectation and exhortation toward forgiveness. Which you probably knew. What Hat ~ I figured the same. I just wanted to clarify a few things, however, for those who might associated forgiveness with allowing an abusive person back into their lives as a result. Such would be absolute folly and opening yourself up to further abuse, if it was believed that such was a requirement of forgiveness, IMHO? Forgiveness is definitely a gift we give ourselves by releasing our burden to the Higher Power in our lives and leaving any vindication or making things right with Him. We are blessed for "letting go," regardless how deep the pain and hurt caused by the offender.
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Post by rational on Oct 12, 2014 14:48:20 GMT -5
What Hat ~ I agree. However, some people who commit such terrible acts as CSA are probably so callous and unfeeling inside, that they don't connect the dots? ??? I have no doubt that many of these characters are narcissists and unable to truly feel the pain they cause others by their actions. Have you ever worker with any offenders? Have you ever knowingly spoken with an offender?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2014 16:04:21 GMT -5
Wally, do you think that her prostituting herself was a bad thing or immoral. Was her act of hiding the messengers a sign that she had another side to her character? yes it was a bad thing/immoral. her act of hiding the spies was her turnaround from her former life...remember they kept her outside the camp of isreal for a time afterwards... She was just needing "Rahab-ilitated!"
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Post by faune on Oct 12, 2014 17:17:08 GMT -5
What Hat ~ I agree. However, some people who commit such terrible acts as CSA are probably so callous and unfeeling inside, that they don't connect the dots? I have no doubt that many of these characters are narcissists and unable to truly feel the pain they cause others by their actions. Have you ever worker with any offenders? Have you ever knowingly spoken with an offender? Rational ~ I have facilitated small groups in church dealing with such offenses in the past for a few years. However, I dealt more with the victims than the offenders. I have also read extensively on the subject to become better acquainted with the dynamics involved here and I also took courses in counseling to become a facilitator. One thing that stood out to me from the victims' description of abuse within these self-help groups was the callousness and indifference of their offenders, who appeared totally self absorbed and incapable of caring about who they hurt. It was a more a matter of control over their lives that made them feel superior and pure selfishness on their part that motivated them. Perhaps some of these perpetrators were abused themselves and this was one way of theirs to get revenge through harming their own children in similar ways? Whatever the logic behind it, it was pretty dysfunctional and not based in reality!
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Post by rational on Oct 12, 2014 17:43:26 GMT -5
One thing that stood out to me from the victims' description of abuse within these self-help groups was the callousness and indifference of their offenders, who appeared totally self absorbed and incapable of caring about who they hurt. It was a more a matter of control over their lives that made them feel superior and pure selfishness on their part that motivated them. What did you expect the victim to say?
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Post by faune on Oct 12, 2014 17:47:56 GMT -5
Snow ~ I believe it would be impossible for us to be anything like Jesus except for the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit on the inside as a result of being born again of the Spirit and transformed from the inside out from inviting Christ into our lives. I'm reminded of what it says in Colossians 1:27 about "Christ in you, the hope of glory." For this to take place, a person has to be "born again" of the Spirit and cleansed by its influence over our lives, transforming us from the inside out, as Jesus brought out in his conversation with Nicodemus in John 3.
biblehub.com/colossians/1-27.htm
www.gty.org/resources/bible-qna/BQ072413/what-does-it-mean-to-be-born-of-water-and-spirit
Well, this is one of those rare times we must disagree I guess. I don't think anyone needs to be 'born again' in order to know that love and compassion work far better then hate and cruelty. When there are catastrophes we see more people reaching out and helping than people taking advantage. I think in many cases our first instinct is to love. When we start thinking about it and all the reasons why we 'can't' that's when we have trouble. I think our 'hearts' show us the way though. When we are angry we feel very 'closed up' but when we are in love we seem to expand and feel wonderful. That is the only guide anyone needs as far as I know. I don't have any Holy Spirit guiding me and I have never been born more than once, yet I see the value in love and compassion. If I needed to be born again in order to see this or live this then how does it happen that I see the value of it without those things? Snow ~ I guess I wasn't that clear in expressing what I was referring about, which is being more like Jesus, who's supposed to be our example as Christians. Without a transformation within our spirit, I doubt anybody could manifest the virtues of Christ in their lives? When Jesus spoke about being "born again" to Nicodemus, he was talking about letting go of the "works mentality" as a means of earning one's salvation and simply accepting the "free gift of God's grace" through inviting the Spirit of Christ to come into your heart and change you from the inside out. It's more like letting go of all your preconceptions of God and the man-made requirements of religion and simply opening up to the work of the Holy Spirit within your life. The fruits of the spirit is what generally follows, as found in Galatians 5, as we daily seek his guidance in our lives, confess our wrongs, and ask for forgiveness. Basically, it's a process of change involving God and ourselves in a form of relationship and hopefully the result is spiritual growth and renewal.
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Post by faune on Oct 12, 2014 17:57:19 GMT -5
One thing that stood out to me from the victims' description of abuse within these self-help groups was the callousness and indifference of their offenders, who appeared totally self absorbed and incapable of caring about who they hurt. It was a more a matter of control over their lives that made them feel superior and pure selfishness on their part that motivated them. What did you expect the victim to say? Rational ~ Well, it's usually the victims who end up seeking help through counseling ~ not the offenders. It seems many of these offenders put on a perfect front of self righteousness and model citizen, because they're clever cons. They tend to cover their bases, expecting a day of reckoning will eventually come. I would guess they're probably blind to their own faults and not desirous of any enlightenment in this area? It probably would take a real "humbling experience" to bring them to a place of seeking professional help and working towards that goal? In most cases, it is forced upon them by a Court of Law for violations against another.
However, I feel Snow would have more knowledge along this line, since she has worked within the corrections system in the past and also in their half-way houses for rehabilitating criminals back into the outside world. I would guess there's not much she has not heard along these lines, too?
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Post by matisse on Oct 12, 2014 18:05:35 GMT -5
Well, this is one of those rare times we must disagree I guess. I don't think anyone needs to be 'born again' in order to know that love and compassion work far better then hate and cruelty. When there are catastrophes we see more people reaching out and helping than people taking advantage. I think in many cases our first instinct is to love. When we start thinking about it and all the reasons why we 'can't' that's when we have trouble. I think our 'hearts' show us the way though. When we are angry we feel very 'closed up' but when we are in love we seem to expand and feel wonderful. That is the only guide anyone needs as far as I know. I don't have any Holy Spirit guiding me and I have never been born more than once, yet I see the value in love and compassion. If I needed to be born again in order to see this or live this then how does it happen that I see the value of it without those things? Snow ~ I guess I wasn't that clear in expressing what I was referring about, which is being more like Jesus, who's supposed to be our example as Christians. Without a transformation within our spirit, I doubt anybody could manifest the virtues of Christ in their lives? When Jesus spoke about being "born again" to Nicodemus, he was talking about letting go of the "works mentality" as a means of earning one's salvation and simply accepting the "free gift of God's grace" through inviting the Spirit of Christ to come into your heart and change you from the inside out. It's more like letting go of all your preconceptions of God and the man-made requirements of religion and simply opening up to the work of the Holy Spirit within your life. The fruits of the spirit is what generally follows, as found in Galatians 5, as we daily seek his guidance in our lives, confess our wrongs, and ask for forgiveness. Basically, it's a process of change involving God and ourselves in a form of relationship and hopefully the result is spiritual growth and renewal. Some Christians seem to believe that they have exclusive access to the human characteristics collectively referred to in the NT as "the fruits of the spirit." They don't. In fact, it is not clear to me that Christians are any better at exhibiting TFOTS than others.
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Post by rational on Oct 12, 2014 19:24:14 GMT -5
Rational ~ Well, it's usually the victims who end up seeking help through counseling ~ not the offenders. It seems many of these offenders put on a perfect front of self righteousness and model citizen, because they're clever cons. As seen through the eyes of the victim.Occasionally offenders do realize they have a problem and look for help. These are generally not the ones that get arrested for molesting children.There is wide range of reasons that people do what they do, criminals included.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2014 22:56:40 GMT -5
because you know they have done wrong to you regardless of what they know those who put Jesus on the cross didn't think or admit they had done wrong but He still forgave them you'er welcome to follow what transpired for the prodical but Jesus is my choice The difference is we are not Jesus ! As has been said before it was part of God's plan for Jesus to be crucified. nor was Stephen
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Post by What Hat on Oct 12, 2014 23:01:59 GMT -5
Snow ~ I guess I wasn't that clear in expressing what I was referring about, which is being more like Jesus, who's supposed to be our example as Christians. Without a transformation within our spirit, I doubt anybody could manifest the virtues of Christ in their lives? When Jesus spoke about being "born again" to Nicodemus, he was talking about letting go of the "works mentality" as a means of earning one's salvation and simply accepting the "free gift of God's grace" through inviting the Spirit of Christ to come into your heart and change you from the inside out. It's more like letting go of all your preconceptions of God and the man-made requirements of religion and simply opening up to the work of the Holy Spirit within your life. The fruits of the spirit is what generally follows, as found in Galatians 5, as we daily seek his guidance in our lives, confess our wrongs, and ask for forgiveness. Basically, it's a process of change involving God and ourselves in a form of relationship and hopefully the result is spiritual growth and renewal. Some Christians seem to believe that they have exclusive access to the human characteristics collectively referred to in the NT as "the fruits of the spirit." They don't. In fact, it is not clear to me that Christians are any better at exhibiting TFOTS than others. It's a process by which we seek to become a better person, better than we were before, but not necessarily better than anyone else. I also have a very liberal view of what is meant by Spirit, equating roughly to conscience.
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