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Post by rational on May 8, 2014 22:48:58 GMT -5
We know Jesus exists because we have his teachings, his birth, his life, death and resurrection. We have too many eyewitnesses who saw Jesus. His mother, brothers, sisters, disciples, the Pharisees, Roman governor officials, soldiers, who He healed and helped. Outside of a single book, you have a number very close, if not at, zero. It is like saying that Grendel existed because there is an ancient story that talks about Grendel, Grendel's mother, Grendel's pet, etc. Grendeldid a lot of things as well. Great. That is your belief. It is not fact and there is no proof.That sounds like something you believe and base your life on.I could make the same promises that you are believing in and offer the exact same level of proof. However, without some speck of proof I feel it would be disonest to offer you things which I know cannot be demonstrated or proved.A lot of people don't want this to happen. It could be the very reason beliefs like yours were created.[quite]Well, I hope you are right, because I don't want you to taste what is SECOND death is like.[/font]Thanks Nathan. I personally can't imagine living my life only in hope of some unproved special prize after I die. It reminds me of people who go to work every day, year after year, to a job they hate, in hope of a retirement package. [/quote]
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2014 22:49:31 GMT -5
we are suppose to fear and love God... Well, we are supposed to fear God and keep his commandments. But perfect love casts out fear, and in love there is no fear. I'm going to have to turn in and it's too late to reconcile those two verses in my mind. However, #2 is the more powerful idea, I think. it can be reconciled by the word "balance"...
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Post by What Hat on May 8, 2014 22:49:51 GMT -5
Are you saying that the only reason you follow Christ is out of fear? That is, if there is no eternal torment there would be no point in serving Christ? There are plenty of people who have never been brought up in a Christian home, who know nothing of Jesus Christ, and yet, they find more purpose in their lives, doing good as best they can, and not merely trying to enjoy themselves. How much more purpose should one who knows Christ find in life, regardless of what happens to the lost in Eternity. Let's say that you came to the end of life. You have served Christ as best you could, and others who have not are also saved, just as you are. Will this bring you joy, or are you going to be like the Master's Son when the Prodigal returns? we are suppose to fear and love God...i doubt seriously that the Lord will be allowing unbelievers into heaven along with the saved its not the same as the prodigal son...they prodigal son made an effort to come back to his father and repented of what he did...prodigals i have no problem with at all... Of course, it's a hypothetical that I posed. I was asking you if you would resent it if unbelievers found their way into grace after death, or if that would make you happy. Because if it would make you happy then the issue of eternal torment or not doesn't affect you in this life. I don't really know myself with certainty, but in my gut I feel there is no eternal torment in store for anyone. I see no reason to have to believe in eternal torment to understand Christ's sacrifice for me, personally.
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Post by What Hat on May 8, 2014 23:12:54 GMT -5
And I will ask you the same question. 1) WH wrote: Are you saying that the only reason you follow Christ is out of fear? That is, if there is no eternal torment there would be no point in serving Christ? ~~ I serve Jesus because what He has been continued doing for me in my life, when I was in distress, trouble with the cares of life, without hope. I saw only Death before me. I cried out unto the Jesus and He heard my cried and got me of the valley of death, which I am very greatful for. As I serve Christ I learned what He has done for me Calvary's Cross I love Him more and more each day.2) There are plenty of people who have never been brought up in a Christian home, who know nothing of Jesus Christ, and yet, they find more purpose in their lives, doing good as best they can, and not merely trying to enjoy themselves. How much more purpose should one who knows Christ find in life, regardless of what happens to the lost in Eternity. ~~ I was an ancestor worship, and a Buddhist... Jesus said, Seek, ye shall find... knock and it shall be opened unto you... To the honest, sincere in SEEKING to serve God, He will lead them to Christ just like He did with me.3) Let's say that you came to the end of life. You have served Christ as best you could, and others who have not are also saved, just as you are. Will this bring you joy, or are you going to be like the Master's Son was when the Prodigal returned? Are you going to say, hey, I served you my whole life, and this fellow who has done nothing, who did not believe as I did, is going to share in the same joy. I thought you were going to cast that fellow into eternal torment and that's what kept me going all these years. ~~ This is the Father and His Son's kingdom..... I am happy, and glad to accept anyone as my brothers, sisters in Christ in heaven. Who Am I to say they can't be there. If they made in heaven then they have the right to be there because God has chosen them and they are His.
God will be doing the casting the unprofitable servants into everlasting darkness. That's is His job not mine. I will glad/happy as to be a little mouse in the corner in heaven.
If you want to believe in eternal torment, I'm okay with that. But please don't tell me (you or Wally) that the sacrifice of Jesus means nothing unless there is eternal torment for the unsaved. If you think that is His job, then it shouldn't matter to you ultimately if there is no eternal torment in the end. For my own part, I believe God will be righteous in His judgements and will bring every work into judgement. I can't understand how eternal torment would be used by a righteous judge, so I'm sticking with that for the time being. Frankly, I can't see how it would matter if I did turn out to be wrong.
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Post by rational on May 8, 2014 23:18:01 GMT -5
Outside of a single book, you have a number very close, if not at, zero. It is like saying that Grendel existed because there is an ancient story that talks about Grendel, Grendel's mother, Grendel's pet, etc. Grendel did a lot of things as well. You said: ~~ I gave you the proof/and Paul's writings and you ignored it.I didn't ignore it. I tried to point out that it is not proof. It is a single reference. Do you believe Grendel existed? The level of proof is exactly the same. You choose to believe that Paul's story was different than the people who heard god/Jesus tell them to kill their children.
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Post by rational on May 8, 2014 23:32:22 GMT -5
I gave you more than a single reference... Who is Grendal? You believe what the bible says about Jesus. It sounds like it fills your needs. I am happy for you. Grendel is one of the antagonists in Beowulf.
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Post by Johnny DeRaad on May 9, 2014 9:32:34 GMT -5
Mr. Rational could know Jesus is real also . .he chooses not to . .. it is a choice that God gives us . .to know Him, and accept Him ...those of us who do know Him can look back and understand being in the place of before and after knowing him .. there is no taking away from what's happened in my life and who I was and what I was before knowing Christ . .what changed in me instantly the moment I accepted him..no denying He's real.. ..the problem for Mr. Rational is . .it's not rational ..
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Post by Johnny DeRaad on May 9, 2014 9:37:37 GMT -5
FT wrote: Nathan, your post makes no sense. First you say you believe in life after death and then you state that you hope rational is "right" about being gone forever because you don't want him to taste a 2nd death. 1) Do you really hope there is nothing after this life as you suggest? If not, why would you even make that comment? ~~ I KNOW Life continues after this earthly life is ended, for believers and non-believers. 2) Are you judging rational's outcome after death? As you know, Jesus made it clear that we are not to judge others. Jesus said Judge with righteous judgment... Rational doesn't believe in life after death. So, What I am saying is....... there's second death after this life for those who rejected God's gift of Salvation through accept and believing in Jesus. Just a warning of what to come for those who refuse in God's eternal life gift.I don't believe "righteous judgment" empowers another to determine the eternal outcome of another individual. Do you? If so, where do you find a biblical definition for righteous judgment that implies this? Rendering righteous judgement does not mean your sending someone to hell because you judge their lifestyle or actions wrong . .as believers we're called to judge someones actions. . not their salvation ..this judgement spoken of here is of actions . .
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Post by rational on May 9, 2014 10:28:43 GMT -5
Mr. Rational could know Jesus is real also . .he chooses not to . .. it is a choice that God gives us . .to know Him, and accept Him ...those of us who do know Him can look back and understand being in the place of before and after knowing him .. there is no taking away from what's happened in my life and who I was and what I was before knowing Christ . .what changed in me instantly the moment I accepted him..no denying He's real.. ..the problem for Mr. Rational is . .it's not rational .. I am glad that your beliefs have done so well for you and bring you comfort. And you are correct, it is not rational. It is based on a belief supported by faith that requires neither material not logical support. As I said, I am glad you find comfort in your beliefs.
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Post by xna on May 9, 2014 10:46:50 GMT -5
Mr. Rational could know Jesus is real also . .he chooses not to . .. it is a choice that God gives us . .to know Him, and accept Him ...those of us who do know Him can look back and understand being in the place of before and after knowing him .. there is no taking away from what's happened in my life and who I was and what I was before knowing Christ . .what changed in me instantly the moment I accepted him..no denying He's real.. ..the problem for Mr. Rational is . .it's not rational .. Choose that leap of faith ... Faith Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Rational = Having or exercising reason, sound judgment, or good sense. Reason = Basis or cause, as for some belief, action, fact, or event I suspect those who say they believe in the "god of the bible", really mean the believe in the "words of the bible". If it's about words, then how best to check; but by using reason. The problem with applying reason to the word of bible is; it contradicts itself many times, and the words come from some guy, and not god, who had an idea or heard a story and wrote it down. The same can be said for other books and other gods. Which if any words are then based on facts? If someone has a personal experience that convinced them there is a god, that experienced is not evidence for someone else. If someone takes a leap of faith based on hope without evidence that is credulity. credulity = : willingness to believe on slight or uncertain evidence I have a cousin who was homeless and on drugs. Then he found jesus, became a preacher and generally turned his life around. If he lost his faith he says he would go back to his old ways. For him I prefer he keep believing in jesus. Many people say how much happier they are once they found jesus. That way of thinking reminds me about what a wise Irishman George Bernard Shaw had to say on the subject.
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Post by snow on May 9, 2014 11:10:01 GMT -5
if one is simply gonna disappear after doing evil whats the big deal? as they say eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die... Amen, Wally.... If one is simply going to disappear in the second death... then Jesus purpose come to earth, died a horrible death on Calvary's Cross is invain! Jesus came down from heaven and died for our sins so Christians will NOT be thrown into that lake of fire= eternal pains and sufferings... The Second Death!
The Lake of fire was prepared for Satan and 1/3 of the fallen angels, the false prophets and their followers..... But people are free to go there when they refuse accept His gift of Salvation.... ALL they have to do is to accept and believe in Jesus' death on Calvary's Cross which atone for their sins/Second Death/Pains, Sufferings for Eternity.
There is no Salvation or second chance for Satan and the fallen angels. They know the Lake of fire is their punishment so they are going to take many people with them in the Lake of fire. The Bible (The book of Revelation 12:7-9) John the apostle wrote: There WAS a War/Rebellion in heaven, Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon/Serpent with his/Satan angels prevail NOT; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And that great Dragon was cast out, that OLD Serpent, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the EARTH, and his angels were cast out with him And his tail drew the THIRD part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the EARTH.
The book of Jude 1: 6 And the angels who kept NOT their position of authority, but LEFT their own habitation, God has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Sounds like you and Wally want those who choose not to believe to be thrown into eternal torture. If you have to make sacrifices during this life to get into heaven then it's only fair that those who do not get tortured eternally? How nice. This kind of mentality totally disgusts me. Wanting others to suffer eternally because you suffered in your finite life because you believed there was an afterlife. Don't you see how twisted this mindset is Nathan?
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Post by snow on May 9, 2014 11:11:27 GMT -5
Are you saying that the only reason you follow Christ is out of fear? That is, if there is no eternal torment there would be no point in serving Christ? There are plenty of people who have never been brought up in a Christian home, who know nothing of Jesus Christ, and yet, they find more purpose in their lives, doing good as best they can, and not merely trying to enjoy themselves. How much more purpose should one who knows Christ find in life, regardless of what happens to the lost in Eternity. Let's say that you came to the end of life. You have served Christ as best you could, and others who have not are also saved, just as you are. Will this bring you joy, or are you going to be like the Master's Son when the Prodigal returns? we are suppose to fear and love God...i doubt seriously that the Lord will be allowing unbelievers into heaven along with the saved its not the same as the prodigal son...the prodigal son made an effort to come back to his father and repented of what he did...prodigals i have no problem with at all...or even the laborer getting his penny for working less hours than the others is fine with me... How can you love someone you fear?
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2014 11:20:09 GMT -5
we are suppose to fear and love God...i doubt seriously that the Lord will be allowing unbelievers into heaven along with the saved its not the same as the prodigal son...the prodigal son made an effort to come back to his father and repented of what he did...prodigals i have no problem with at all...or even the laborer getting his penny for working less hours than the others is fine with me... How can you love someone you fear? just the same as i loved my mother and feared her at the same time...
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Post by snow on May 9, 2014 11:22:15 GMT -5
If someone derives comfort by believing in a God or Jesus then I am all for it. I am glad that your beliefs make your life worth living. I would much rather see people live a good and happy life with their belief in God making them that way than have them live a life that is sad and hopeless and possibly harmful to themselves and others. However, what I do not think is needed is for those who believe in God or Jesus to judge those who do not and tell them that they are going to an afterlife of eternal torture. That goes over the line imo.
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Post by snow on May 9, 2014 11:23:22 GMT -5
How can you love someone you fear? just the same as i loved my mother and feared her at the same time... You feared your mother? Well then I guess you've had practice. It's sad to have had to fear your mother though.
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Post by faune on May 9, 2014 13:05:43 GMT -5
just the same as i loved my mother and feared her at the same time... You feared your mother? Well then I guess you've had practice. It's sad to have had to fear your mother though. What about that Bible verse relating to our faith which states "perfect love casts out all fear" found in 1 John 4:8, as shown below?
I particular like this Jewish version of the same verse shown above, as it defines what it means to be "perfected in love."
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Post by snow on May 9, 2014 16:35:33 GMT -5
Sounds like you and Wally want those who choose not to believe to be thrown into eternal torture. If you have to make sacrifices during this life to get into heaven then it's only fair that those who do not get tortured eternally? How nice. This kind of mentality totally disgusts me. Wanting others to suffer eternally because you suffered in your finite life because you believed there was an afterlife. Don't you see how twisted this mindset is Nathan? I want all men to be SAVED and enjoy eternal life with God forever. It seemed a few on this board doesn't want to believe in God, or his son. They believe Jesus does NOT exist. If Jesus did NOT exist then there is NO hope of eternal life for anyone of us. Getting tortured eternally is unbelievers own choice and choosing NOT God. God wants ALL men to be SAVED and enjoy an everlasting life not to be tortured for eternity. God offers eternal life but Second death comes to those who refuse His gift of Salvation.
I Tim 2:3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
To enter God's kingdom we MUST be born again, then God gives us His divine nature which lives on after this earthly life is over. This human body and human nature are only good to live on this earth and it will end here! with the first death but the unbelieving souls will go a place of waiting for the Judgment Day to be cast into the lake of fire. The believers in Christ who died the first death/departure from this earthly life will immediately be with Christ in heaven. They will be spared from being thrown into the lake of fire because Jesus died the second death on Calvary's cross for them.
Your logic doesn't hold in this Nathan. If there is no Jesus and no God there also is not hell because they aren't around to create it. Therefore none of us have to worry. It's the belief in God and Jesus and their hell that makes you think we need to be saved by them. I don't buy into that so how can I sin or go to hell? They would first have to exist.
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Post by snow on May 9, 2014 17:20:46 GMT -5
Your logic doesn't hold in this Nathan. If there is no Jesus and no God there also is not hell because they aren't around to create it. Therefore none of us have to worry. It's the belief in God and Jesus and their hell that makes you think we need to be saved by them. I don't buy into that so how can I sin or go to hell? They would first have to exist. I have proved it in my own life that the Father and the Son do exist. I have tested them, asking them to prove to me that if they were to exist to answer my prayers. I asked for lists of things if they were for REAL then prove it to me by granting it to me.... God has answered most of my wish lists.... the last 40 yrs. God exists and He answers prayers for those who seek after Him. Seek and ye shall find, Knocks and it shall be opened unto you.For YOU they are real. For me they are not. I have had a lot of things on my wish list granted too. How do you explain that? I never asked anyone and yet I have had many good things happen and many goals achieved. So the proof is not there Nathan, for anyone other than you. It certainly is not there for me. Everything that has happened has been because of something I set in motion or the good deed of another human being on my behalf.
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Post by xna on May 9, 2014 18:58:12 GMT -5
For YOU they are real. For me they are not. I have had a lot of things on my wish list granted too. How do you explain that? ~~ God loves you. ~~ I believe God has been watching over you. He will NOT let you go. Unless you want Him to leave then He will for a short time, waiting for you to change your mind. Nathan9 - I get the impression that both you and "snow" are expressing your heart felt genuine feelings, but you see very differently. As you know by now I agree with snow. But let's assume: - You are right, and "snow" is wrong - there is a God - God loves you, and want's 100% to go to heaven - God's one true way is the F&W - the chosen ones - God is just and fair - (we have at least a 50% chance of heaven) - God and the devil have equal powers over mankind - not biblical I know Given this you would expect the outcome to be: 50% in heaven, 50% in hell. I have seen estimates there are about 150,000 F&W, out of 7,000,000,000 people alive today. Even if 100% of the F&W alive today go to heaven, the outcome is: 0.002% in heaven, and 99.998% in hell. What is your reason for not getting a 50/50 outcome, other than God is not fair: (Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen.") Let's say 100% of Christians go to heaven? That would get you up to 32% in heaven. The justification for a lopsided outcome (a narrow way) is; all start from original sin. Now you are back to the just and fair God question.
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Post by xna on May 9, 2014 19:48:31 GMT -5
Nathan9 - I get the impression that both you and "snow" are expressing your heart felt genuine feelings, but you see very differently. As you know by now I agree with snow. But let's assume: - You are right, and "snow" is wrong - there is a God - God loves you, and want's 100% to go to heaven - God's one true way is the F&W - the chosen ones - God is just and fair - (we have at least a 50% chance of heaven) - God and the devil have equal powers over mankind - not biblical I know Given this you would expect the outcome to be: 50% in heaven, 50% in hell. I have seen estimates there are about 150,000 F&W, out of 7,000,000,000 people alive today. Even if 100% of the F&W alive today go to heaven, the outcome is: 0.002% in heaven, and 99.998% in hell. What is your reason for not getting a 50/50 outcome, other than God is not fair: (Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen.") Let's say 100% of Christians go to heaven? That would get you up to 32% in heaven. The justification for a lopsided outcome (a narrow way) is; all start from original sin. Now you are back to the just and fair God question. Jesus own words in Matthew 7:13-14 The Narrow and Wide Gates
Jesus said, “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a FEW! find it.
Jesus said it again in Luke 13:23-29 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”
Using my "God given reason" something is wrong when the mission mission statement is: 1 Timothy 2: 4 "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." and the positive outcome is less than 0.002 %
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Post by xna on May 10, 2014 10:41:49 GMT -5
Using my "God given reason" something is wrong when the mission mission statement is: 1 Timothy 2: 4 "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." and the positive outcome is less than 0.002 % God wants ALL mankind to be SAVED but NOT everyone wants to be SAVED or believe He exists. How can anyone get SAVED when he/she doesn't believe in the existence of God? Like Jesus said ONLY A few will Enter the kingdom of God.... just like in the days of Noah's ONLY his family of 8 souls were SAVED out of the GREAT Flood out of the whole population..... MANY were Called but ONLY a few chosen to BELIEVE it.If you do the math the salvation rate according to the F&W is real eye opener. Using the most conservative estimate at the time of the Noah story flood, the world population was 5,000,000, and god saved 8. That works out to 0.00016% success rate in Noah's day. Today if all F&W go to heaven, the success rate is a much improved rate of 0.002%. But since we are now much closer to the last day than Noah was after the flood, biblically things are suppose to be getting worse. This agrees with what I heard from the platform that not all workers will go to heaven. So if it's as bad now as in Noah's day, then using 150,000 F&W, a 0.00016% heaven success rate, then a grand total of 24 F&W alive today will be saved. The odds of F&W being saved then would be 1 in 6,250! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population_estimates
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Post by snow on May 10, 2014 11:28:19 GMT -5
God wants ALL mankind to be SAVED but NOT everyone wants to be SAVED or believe He exists. How can anyone get SAVED when he/she doesn't believe in the existence of God? Like Jesus said ONLY A few will Enter the kingdom of God.... just like in the days of Noah's ONLY his family of 8 souls were SAVED out of the GREAT Flood out of the whole population..... MANY were Called but ONLY a few chosen to BELIEVE it. If you do the math the salvation rate according to the F&W is real eye opener. Using the most conservative estimate at the time of the Noah story flood, the world population was 5,000,000, and god saved 8. That works out to 0.00016% success rate in Noah's day. Today if all F&W go to heaven, the success rate is a much improved rate of 0.002%. But since we are now much closer to the last day than Noah was after the flood, biblically things are suppose to be getting worse. This agrees with what I heard from the platform that not all workers will go to heaven. So if it's as bad now as in Noah's day, then using 150,000 F&W, a 0.00016% heaven success rate, then a grand total of 24 F&W alive today will be saved. The odds of F&W being saved then would be 1 in 6,250! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population_estimatesThose numbers hardly indicate that God is fair and just. It also doesn't appear that God can get what he wants if he wants all men to be saved. What's the point of being all powerful, all loving, all merciful, all forgiving yet concede defeat to a rebel angel? If he really wanted us all in heaven he would just love us for who we are and forgive us everything we do and that would be that. So somewhere in this definition and reality there seems to be a huge contradiction of what or who God really is and his powers.
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Post by snow on May 10, 2014 13:20:16 GMT -5
Those numbers hardly indicate that God is fair and just. It also doesn't appear that God can get what he wants if he wants all men to be saved. What's the point of being all powerful, all loving, all merciful, all forgiving yet concede defeat to a rebel angel? If he really wanted us all in heaven he would just love us for who we are and forgive us everything we do and that would be that. So somewhere in this definition and reality there seems to be a huge contradiction of what or who God really is and his powers. ~~ God had allowed Noah to preach the gospel of Salvation for 100 yrs to tell others to ENTER the ARK to be SAVED from the Great flood. NONE of them believed him so they died outside the ark. God has been gathering/called His chosen ones Gentiles and Jews in EVERY generation for the last 2000 yrs, so there will NOT be a shortage of born again Christians in heaven.
Back in the 1st Century
Revelation 6:9-11 When he opened the fifth seal, I/John saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
Revelation 7:4-9 In heaven there are multitude of Jews and Gentiles SAVED through the centuries!
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.There will be thousands, and thousands, millions which no man could count of SAVED Jews and Gentiles from many nations around the world will be gathered in heaven through the 6000 thousand years history. The FEW saved have been called/gathered in EVERY generation for 6000 yrs. A little at a time after 6000 yrs it add up= A GREAT multitude of SAVED people which no man can count.
GET in the Ark/Christ while there is time left! and STAY in the Ark don't wandering around outside the Ark! because the next time God will destroy the earth with FIRE!I Peter 3:9-12 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.Nathan, the ark was so small it couldn't even accommodate all the animals it was supposed to have carried let alone a bunch more humans. It's a myth. It is physically impossible for the entire earth to be covered with water, even the mountains. Not possible. Also, if the ark was built to the specifications in the bible, is the one that was supposed to have held every species of animal in the world, that is again totally impossible. It wasn't large enough.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2014 13:43:04 GMT -5
~~ God had allowed Noah to preach the gospel of Salvation for 100 yrs to tell others to ENTER the ARK to be SAVED from the Great flood. NONE of them believed him so they died outside the ark. God has been gathering/called His chosen ones Gentiles and Jews in EVERY generation for the last 2000 yrs, so there will NOT be a shortage of born again Christians in heaven.
Back in the 1st Century
Revelation 6:9-11 When he opened the fifth seal, I/John saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
Revelation 7:4-9 In heaven there are multitude of Jews and Gentiles SAVED through the centuries!
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.There will be thousands, and thousands, millions which no man could count of SAVED Jews and Gentiles from many nations around the world will be gathered in heaven through the 6000 thousand years history. The FEW saved have been called/gathered in EVERY generation for 6000 yrs. A little at a time after 6000 yrs it add up= A GREAT multitude of SAVED people which no man can count.
GET in the Ark/Christ while there is time left! and STAY in the Ark don't wandering around outside the Ark! because the next time God will destroy the earth with FIRE!I Peter 3:9-12 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. Nathan, the ark was so small it couldn't even accommodate all the animals it was supposed to have carried let alone a bunch more humans. It's a myth. It is physically impossible for the entire earth to be covered with water, even the mountains. Not possible. Also, if the ark was built to the specifications in the bible, is the one that was supposed to have held every species of animal in the world, that is again totally impossible. It wasn't large enough. adaptation and evolution happened after the flood, the ark could have stored plenty of phylum and sub-species for this to happen...
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Post by snow on May 10, 2014 13:43:29 GMT -5
Nathan, so you really think you can fit all the kinds of animals on earth with all their food on a boat of those dimensions? Not possible.
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Post by slowtosee on May 10, 2014 13:44:08 GMT -5
God wants ALL mankind to be SAVED but NOT everyone wants to be SAVED or believe He exists. How can anyone get SAVED when he/she doesn't believe in the existence of God? Like Jesus said ONLY A few will Enter the kingdom of God.... just like in the days of Noah's ONLY his family of 8 souls were SAVED out of the GREAT Flood out of the whole population..... MANY were Called but ONLY a few chosen to BELIEVE it. If you do the math the salvation rate according to the F&W is real eye opener. Using the most conservative estimate at the time of the Noah story flood, the world population was 5,000,000, and god saved 8. That works out to 0.00016% success rate in Noah's day. Today if all F&W go to heaven, the success rate is a much improved rate of 0.002%. But since we are now much closer to the last day than Noah was after the flood, biblically things are suppose to be getting worse. This agrees with what I heard from the platform that not all workers will go to heaven. So if it's as bad now as in Noah's day, then using 150,000 F&W, a 0.00016% heaven success rate, then a grand total of 24 F&W alive today will be saved. The odds of F&W being saved then would be 1 in 6,250! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population_estimates Hi, Is it correct that "biblically things are suppose to be getting worse"? I remember reading where "deceivers" will wax worse or to that effect, but can't recall the scripture that the "world" or that "things' will be getting worse?? I thought it would never get as bad as "noah's " time... but I could be mistaken ?. That would be the second time in my life I was mistaken , the first one was when I thought I was wrong, and it turned out I was right after all LOL Alvin
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Post by snow on May 10, 2014 13:45:15 GMT -5
Nathan, the ark was so small it couldn't even accommodate all the animals it was supposed to have carried let alone a bunch more humans. It's a myth. It is physically impossible for the entire earth to be covered with water, even the mountains. Not possible. Also, if the ark was built to the specifications in the bible, is the one that was supposed to have held every species of animal in the world, that is again totally impossible. It wasn't large enough. adaptation and evolution happened after the flood, the ark could have stored plenty of phylum and sub-species for this to happen... What? Are you saying there were no animals on the ark? Also, do you believe in evolution? I didn't think you did. And, if you do, do you hold the a young earth? If you do, then how could every evolve to what we see today in such a short period of time?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2014 13:51:47 GMT -5
adaptation and evolution happened after the flood, the ark could have stored plenty of phylum and sub-species for this to happen... What? Are you saying there were no animals on the ark? Also, do you believe in evolution? I didn't think you did. And, if you do, do you hold the a young earth? If you do, then how could every evolve to what we see today in such a short period of time? adaptation and evolution had to happen after the flood, yes i still believe in a young earth, yes there were plenty of animal phyla/sub-species on the ark for this to happen, they evolved through the miracle that God worked. if he could create the earth in six days he could certainly evolve animals and planets in a short period of time
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