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Post by jondough on Mar 2, 2014 0:02:12 GMT -5
Of the Thousands of Workers world-wide since William Irvine, you have come up with a list of 20 Workers Nathan. What does that tell you? I can tell you that if you ask about to every worker I know, they first look at you with a funny, question, look on their face, then they tell you that it is false teaching. If you don't know this Nathan, maybe you are not too much in touch with today's workers. I've asked both friends and workers and they look at you oddly and say 'we don't believe that stuff.' Bringing this up gets a similar response as bring up the name William Irvine. You get that funny look. The awkward silence.
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Post by jondough on Mar 2, 2014 0:19:40 GMT -5
No they don't, and no. I've been around that merry-go-round too many times already. I've read plenty of your post on it. You are stating a false statement by saying the Friends and Workers believe in the Trinity. Please don't do that Nathan. Its not true. Let me ask you this, what is your understanding of the Trinity doctrine?It doesn't matter what my understanding of it is. The F&W don't believe it, nor do they teach it. To the contrary, if I started speaking it during meeting, I would definitely be pulled aside and asked who was feeding me false doctrine. Its the way it is Nathan. If you don't know this, then your out of touch with the way things are now.
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Post by jondough on Mar 2, 2014 0:26:55 GMT -5
Nathan, you said;
Please answer my question, this was a very bold statement to make about an entire group of people that seem to very much have a love for God, Christ, and fellowship with his people;
How has their thinking, belief, teaching, and doctrines changed from when they were 2X2?
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Post by jondough on Mar 2, 2014 0:54:18 GMT -5
Nathan, you said; Please answer my question, this was a very bold statement to make about an entire group of people that seem to very much have a love for God, Christ, and fellowship with his people; How has their thinking, belief, teaching, and doctrines changed from when they were 2X2? 2/17/2014 As I had mentioned before, that by chance uncle Hoa and uncle Châu met together at my home, for a very short time. On hearing this meeting, my sister asked me: “How about their attitude together?” My reply: “Just asking about their health as a friend only”. It was lunch time. I tried to invite uncle Châu have the meal with us, but he denied !... (sitting at the same table waiting for the computer repaired, while uncle Hoa gave thanks for meal, and we had lunch). We all felt compassion on his plight. It Reminded me the time in the past uncle Lyle was angry with uncle Châu, when he asked uncle Châu to visit friends at the field he appointed. However uncle Châu went to visit another place, with some friends (May be uncle Châu felt that place was nesessary for his visiting other than the field was appointed.) Being afraid of the rule of the Overseer, now uncle Châu had to obey completely all their demands. In the past our workers had freedom to go anywhere under the Spirit of God leading, by the urge in their heart. Now Uncle Hoa has the same feeling and freedom to go anywhere God put the impulse in his heart to visit. Of course uncle Châu wants to visit many friends and places as uncle Hoa, but imposible for him. While he still puts his life under the control of Overseers. We have a discussion with our professing brother about the situation now. “If all the Canadian workers go back to their country, would we return to the fellowship with 2x2”. It is really hard for us to answer this question from a godly brother. My husband answer was: “We all love the friends and workers, we love their souls. Now we know the truth, we do not accept the religion of overseers any more. We desire God rules and leads our lives not overseers do. ”~~ NathanB: When Uncle Chau and Hoa were in charge/overseers the Work in Vietnam they could travel, preach, and visit whoever they want. The native workers under their supervision were willing to fit in with their plans for them. The Canadian workers took over the leadership in the year 2000. Chau and Hoa were willing to fit in, under their supervision. The Canadian workers made many decisions were not very wise, about 100 2x2s friends left the fellowship. Uncle Hoa disagreed with the Canadians leadership and with the help from TTT website information, he left the ministry and 2x2 fellowship in 2009. Uncle Chau was very disappointed with the Canadians leadership, but he put his trusted in God to solve the problems in Vietnam.... Eventually, Darrel T. (2010) and Lyle S. (2014) were removed from Vietnam as overseers.(translation of the second heart letter I/Xuanhoan sent to uncle Châu) 3/2014 Dear brother Châu,Here are two things that you wrote to me. I know your heart and thank you for that. 1. I (brother Châu) only hope Hoàn not to read the stuff on Internet because they are not all true…
2. As I said: this way is the Kingdom of God, His House…We have to preserve.Minhthanh wrote 3/2014: Returning from Australia in 2014, Uncle Châu confirmed to me and the friends that "I never change my worship, for this is the true way from Uncle Fred time till now...". I had no idea, lucky that my children didn't believe this is God's way, because of seeing the terrible fruit from them, they can't taste it. Unfortunately many people in my countryside can't read and understand English, they believe what worker said to them, specially from uncle Châu. Nathan, Now that you have posted a copy of what minhthanh wrote, can you please answer my question above. to make it easy; -Their thinking when they were 2X2 was: -Their thinking now is: -Their belief when they were 2X2 was: -Their belief now is: -Their Doctrine when they were 2X2 was: -Their Doctrine now is: -Their teaching when they were 2X2 was: -Their teaching now is:
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Post by jondough on Mar 2, 2014 1:24:08 GMT -5
Don't worry about then and Now... We know this NOW!.... The golden friends/ex-2x2s are no longer believing the fellowship we belong to is of and from God, but man made. 1) Do you believe the 2x2s fellowship and ministry is man-made, and is NOT from God, JD?
2) How do you respond to what the golden friends belief about us? I believe a fellowship is just that. People that fellowship together to encourage each other. I believe that there are many good, Godly people that I fellowship with that love God, Christ and his people. I also believe that there are many who do not fellowship with us that are also our brothers and sisters in Christ. Its not about a 2X2 religion. Its about Christ. It always was about Christ for these VN people, and it still is. In regards to our fellowship, if it comes to the point where the organization/system or any worker, overseer, elder, or anyone else comes before Christ, then it becomes something false. It doesn't make the people fellowshipping together with the correct priorities wrong. It makes the people promoting themselves, or anything else before Christ wrong. You ask what I think about these VN people? They are my brothers and sisters in Christ. So of course I love them as such. Now that I've answered your question, will you now answer mine?
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Post by minhthanh on Mar 2, 2014 1:46:03 GMT -5
The golden friends in VN have become ex-2x2s for 4 yrs now... Their thinking, belief, teaching, doctrines have changed from when they were 2x2s.
Nathan, the information you acquired by guessing is false. I think you should have more spirit of exactness in your post. The last straw was when they chased uncle Châu out. This event happened 4 years ago. Since then the golden friends continued in 2x2 until they closed the meeting place at my sister's house and asked some elders and friends to choose to follow the overseer or not. The golden friends became ex-2x2s not more than two years. We knew the origin of 2x2s not more than a year. Up to now almost the golden friends and the rest haven't known the origin of two by two because partly they don't know English, partly they don't have means to access Internet. The golden friends haven't co-operated with the Canadian overseer because they didn't see the fruit of spirit in them. A lady in golden friends said that at night whenever the lamb (sheep) see the light, they will rush to it. The same, if they see the light on these overseers, they automatically come to them. Their thinking, belief, teaching, doctrines have changed from when they were 2x2s.
Yes, when they were 2x2s, their thinking and belief changed. For example, they tried to please the workers. Often treating them good meals, giving them the highest respect, etc... Gradually we examined ourselves, we astonished because we discovered that we worshiped overseer, workers. And a lot of fears such as not attending all meetings, visiting friends in another field, not asking the things we don't understand. For example after a gospel meeting, my husband asked the sister worker:"Where in the Bible said that the past belongs to the devil?". and so on.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 2, 2014 2:10:49 GMT -5
The Role of William Irvine's sister in the fellowship
Good lord! Are we back to THAT subject again? I thought it had finally died of old age!
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Post by minhthanh on Mar 2, 2014 4:50:06 GMT -5
Nathan, the information you acquired by guessing is false. I think you should have more spirit of exactness in your post. The last straw was when they chased uncle Châu out. This event happened 4 years ago. Since then the golden friends continued in 2x2 until they closed the meeting place at my sister's house and asked some elders and friends to choose to follow the overseer or not. The golden friends became ex-2x2s not more than two years. We knew the origin of 2x2s not more than a year. Up to now almost the golden friends and the rest haven't known the origin of two by two because partly they don't know English, partly the don't have means to access Internet. It began in 2009... some golden friends became ex-2x2s and the numbers has grown to 100 in 2014. It began in 2009... some golden friends became ex-2x2s and the numbers has grown to 100 in 2014.Where does this information come from? Who became ex-2x2s in 2009? Why did they became ex-2x2s? This information is very easy to verify. Why didn't you verify it? So how people believe your theory about William Irvine's sister, which is secret and long time ago?
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Post by jondough on Mar 2, 2014 9:59:47 GMT -5
Nathan, if you would honestly answer my question in regards to the following statement you made, I think it will help YOU see it more clearly. Please answer each one honestly. Here is your statement, followed by my questions again;
Nathan said:
Please clarify what you mean by answering the following;
-Their thinking when they were 2X2 was:
-Their thinking now is:
-Their belief when they were 2X2 was:
-Their belief now is:
-Their Doctrine when they were 2X2 was:
-Their Doctrine now is:
-Their teaching when they were 2X2 was:
-Their teaching now is:
(please no cut & paste - just answer each question in your own words)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 10:08:53 GMT -5
The Golden Friends in VN seem to be much more in line with the original 2x2 ideals than the 2x2s are today.
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 2, 2014 10:21:41 GMT -5
I think I'd "profess" in the golden friends meetings with their understanding , in them being part of the worldwide church of Jesus. On second thought, I guess I already am professing. Thank you "golden friends" Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 10:49:54 GMT -5
Nathan, you said; Please answer my question, this was a very bold statement to make about an entire group of people that seem to very much have a love for God, Christ, and fellowship with his people; How has their thinking, belief, teaching, and doctrines changed from when they were 2X2? If the Golden Friends have changed, it is because they are looking to Jesus and Jesus only and have left the fetters of 'system thinking' behind.
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Post by minhthanh on Mar 2, 2014 22:47:04 GMT -5
-In 2012, Our family still in the fellowship with 2x2. Lyle S, Morris G, Ngoc Châu and our two grandsons are in the picture taken at our home.-This picture is taken at my parents' home, in 2012I should make clear to Nathan with these pictures for he will see what he guessed was wrong. In my father’s letter to Edgar he mentioned about (2009) the starting of changing in workers and overseer. Not only him starting spoke, but also some of others friends seeing these changing. Because we read in Bible and believe that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.So His Way must be never change. One day, Thịnh sold a piece of his land, he wanted to offer some money for the work of God to uncle Châu, but his sister prevented him. She asked him “Give it to Darrel”. I asked uncle Châu to give some advices to the young workers. He said: “You should talk to Darrel, now they just obey to Darrel only”. Darrel changed many things, he first worked with his staff, they all supported for his works (Remember he had power of support from overseers all over the world and money in hand). Then working to the elders… special the young elders whose have influence from Darrel. You may have a glance on this link : www.tellingthetruth.info/history_divisions/vietnam.phpAlthough seeing things were changing not like in the time of uncle Fred or uncle Châu & Hoa. We were all in the fellowship with friends and workers, even after the time they chased uncle Châu out, we were still in the fellowship. Only asking and waiting the answers for all changing and happening. Although disagreeing and being sad with the mess, but we were still keeping the fellowship… (This was the time many stones were throwed out in the fellowship meetings). Seeing we displeased with their works, Lyle.S day by day treated with us with his cool face (Tân & Bình said), no shaking hands with me, and using the time my sister repaired her house to completely cut off the fellowship meeting at my sister’s house till now (That was the place, we and my parents had the fellowship with friends). We were not cut off the fellowship with God, so He gave us the sweet fellowship now, without any stones.
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 3, 2014 0:19:31 GMT -5
You're still incorrect Nate: "It was in the middle of the year 2010 after the Special Meeting that Uncle Hoa decided to leave."You need to read the Account of the VN Division, Nate - and get your facts straight. LINK: www.tellingthetruth.info/history_divisions/vietnam.php
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Post by minhthanh on Mar 3, 2014 3:34:59 GMT -5
Nathan, if you would honestly answer my question in regards to the following statement you made, I think it will help YOU see it more clearly. Please answer each one honestly. Here is your statement, followed by my questions again; Nathan said:Please clarify what you mean by answering the following; -Their thinking when they were 2X2 was: ~~ The 2x2 is God's truth and way.
Minh Thanh : Not only believe in workers said "Here is the True Way of God from the beginning". But also seeing the truth from workers life.
-Their thinking now is: ~~ The 2x2s is NOT God's truth and way.
Minh Thanh : Seeing the bad treating, unjustice from overseers and their staff to uncle Châu. Behavior among workers and workers when they accompany together. Now we believe that. ~~ The 2x2s is NOT God's truth and way.
-Their belief when they were 2X2 was: ~~ The 2x2 is of God and from God.
Minh Thanh : Exactly, and hard working & serving for God, closing with workers in all their activity.
-Their belief now is: ~~ The 2x2 is man-made religion by William Irvine in 1897.
Minh Thanh : We believe 2x2 is not God Way, because the work of God is true and rightious. Here the work of overseers (The ministery leaders) untrue and unjustice. Thank for God had revealed to us later that our determination is true, when reading on TTT website about the origin of 2x2 more than 1 year ago.
-Their Doctrine when they were 2X2 was: ~~ They believe in Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship.
Minh Thanh : Not only believe, but also respect all the workers who sacrify for our souls. And appreciate the faithfull of our friends and the fellowship with love and unity.-Their Doctrine now is: ~~ No longer believing or be apart of 2x2 apostolic/workers ministry and fellowship.
Minh Thanh : As I said, the workers and friends had divided and many things were change. How can we believe, because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
-Their teaching when they were 2X2 was: ~~ Following the overseers/Uncle Chau/Hoa and Darrel/Lyle guidance, leadership.
Minh Thanh : Following all the workers, who had leading under The Spirit of God only. Who teaching, and doing as in Bible.
-Their teaching now is: ~~ NOT following the 2x2 overseers Chau/Lyle S. leadership.
Minh Thanh : Uncle Lyle was gone, uncle Châu not a overseer now !!!
(please no cut & paste - just answer each question in your own words)
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Post by minhthanh on Mar 3, 2014 3:40:09 GMT -5
You're still incorrect Nate: "It was in the middle of the year 2010 after the Special Meeting that Uncle Hoa decided to leave."You need to read the Account of the VN Division, Nate - and get your facts straight. LINK: www.tellingthetruth.info/history_divisions/vietnam.php ~~ Uncle Hoa made up his mind and in his heart, he left in 2009... He officially declared what was in his heart, before the workers and the friends, during the special meetings in the middle of 2010, when he didn't attend the special meetings rounds in VN.Overseer Lyle S. sent a letter about Hoa's leaving the ministry in 6 /2010:
Nothing right or true above with your quote Nathan !!! You couldn't stay in uncle Hoa mind or heart to know ... he left in 2009. Uncle Hoa also not left the ministry in 6/2010. NathanB !!! Be slow and carfully with your post, your thought, for people can believe what you have said... Minh Thanh
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Post by jondough on Mar 3, 2014 9:26:06 GMT -5
Nathan, if you would honestly answer my question in regards to the following statement you made, I think it will help YOU see it more clearly. Please answer each one honestly. Here is your statement, followed by my questions again; Nathan said:Please clarify what you mean by answering the following; -Their thinking when they were 2X2 was: ~~ The 2x2 is God's truth and way.-Their thinking now is: ~~ The 2x2s is NOT God's truth and way.-Their belief when they were 2X2 was: ~~ The 2x2 is of God and from God.-Their belief now is: ~~ The 2x2 is man-made religion by William Irvine in 1897.-Their Doctrine when they were 2X2 was: ~~ They believe in Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship.-Their Doctrine now is: ~~ No longer believing or be apart of 2x2 apostolic/workers ministry and fellowship.-Their teaching when they were 2X2 was: ~~ Following the overseers/Uncle Chau/Hoa and Darrel/Lyle guidance, leadership.-Their teaching now is: ~~ NOT following the 2x2 overseers Chau/Lyle S. leadership.(please no cut & paste - just answer each question in your own words) The problem that I see in your thinking is that you seem to be following the leading of certain men. This is a problem, because with this thinking, you are susceptible to the imperfections of the men you are being led by. I may get some disagreements with this but one of the reasons I continue to fellowship with the F&W is that most workers still continue to point to Christ as our leader. They point us to Christ, as our perfect example, and the leading of the Holy Spirit. I know for sure that the Workers we have in our field this year are doing this. The day that I find that the above is no longer the case, but instead they are pointing at themselves, and asking me to follow them (the leading of man) is the day I no longer continue to fellowship with them. If you are following a man (or men) they can lead you right off a cliff. Your focus will become wrong. Your vision will become carnal. You will become spiritually blind. Maybe this is why you cannot understand how these people can still be our brothers in Christ. They are not following the same men you are following. I don't know them, but they seem to be following the same Christ that I'm following, and being led by the same Spirit that I'm being led by. I have mentioned many times in my testimonies that I am thankful for the Workers that point me to Christ, and not themselves. It seems that the Catholic Church points their people to other men to lead their people. They point to their hierarchy that is led by the Pope, and that is what their people are suppose to follow. They even make their confession to men. Because we are carnal, it is just human to want to follow the leading of men. I hope that we will never be led by men and all the imperfections that could possibly come with this.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2014 9:39:21 GMT -5
Here is the way I understand the situation:-Their thinking when they were 2X2 was: ~~ The 2x2 is God's truth and way.Could be true.-Their thinking now is: ~~ The 2x2s is NOT God's truth and way.Jesus is the truth and the way.-Their belief when they were 2X2 was: ~~ The 2x2 is of God and from God.Most likely true.-Their belief now is: ~~ The 2x2 is man-made religion by William Irvine in 1897.Most likely true.-Their Doctrine when they were 2X2 was: ~~ They believe in Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship.Could be true.-Their Doctrine now is: ~~ No longer believing or be apart of 2x2 apostolic/workers ministry and fellowship.They stayed much the same, the 2x2 ministry and fellowship moved away from them and tried to change what they had believed to be of God.-Their teaching when they were 2X2 was: ~~ Following the overseers/Uncle Chau/Hoa and Darrel/Lyle guidance, leadership.They never heard of the idea of overseers until Darrel T came.-Their teaching now is: ~~ NOT following the 2x2 overseers Chau/Lyle S. leadership.Following Jesus only now.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2014 11:49:33 GMT -5
The problem that I see in your thinking is that you seem to be following the leading of certain men. This is a problem, because with this thinking, you are susceptible to the imperfections of the men you are being led by. I may get some disagreements with this but one of the reasons I continue to fellowship with the F&W is that most workers still continue to point to Christ as our leader. They point us to Christ, as our perfect example, and the leading of the Holy Spirit. I know for sure that the Workers we have in our field this year are doing this. The day that I find that the above is no longer the case, but instead they are pointing at themselves, and asking me to follow them (the leading of man) is the day I no longer continue to fellowship with them. If you are following a man (or men) they can lead you right off a cliff. Your focus will become wrong. Your vision will become carnal. You will become spiritually blind. Maybe this is why you cannot understand how these people can still be our brothers in Christ. They are not following the same men you are following. I don't know them, but they seem to be following the same Christ that I'm following, and being led by the same Spirit that I'm being led by. I have mentioned many times in my testimonies that I am thankful for the Workers that point me to Christ, and not themselves. It seems that the Catholic Church points their people to other men to lead their people. They point to their hierarchy that is led by the Pope, and that is what their people are suppose to follow. They even make their confession to men. Because we are carnal, it is just human to want to follow the leading of men. I hope that we will never be led by men and all the imperfections that could possibly come with this. Most of the workers I know and had been with as their co-workers have always point people to follow Christ NOT to follow them. As Paul wrote in I Cor. 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.hmmmm.... You say the 100 golden friends are ours brothers and sisters in Christ... Just say when this mess in VN is solved, will they come back and have full fellowship/worship meetings with the current friends, Uncle Chau and with the rest of the workers like in the past?
You say the 100 golden friends and us are following the Same Christ, and our brothers and sisters, then they should have FULL worship/emblems fellowship with us like they did in the past, right?No, the workers and friends should come back to them, not the other way around. Add in some apologies by the workers would be a good idea as well.
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Post by jondough on Mar 3, 2014 12:01:30 GMT -5
The problem that I see in your thinking is that you seem to be following the leading of certain men. This is a problem, because with this thinking, you are susceptible to the imperfections of the men you are being led by. I may get some disagreements with this but one of the reasons I continue to fellowship with the F&W is that most workers still continue to point to Christ as our leader. They point us to Christ, as our perfect example, and the leading of the Holy Spirit. I know for sure that the Workers we have in our field this year are doing this. The day that I find that the above is no longer the case, but instead they are pointing at themselves, and asking me to follow them (the leading of man) is the day I no longer continue to fellowship with them. If you are following a man (or men) they can lead you right off a cliff. Your focus will become wrong. Your vision will become carnal. You will become spiritually blind. Maybe this is why you cannot understand how these people can still be our brothers in Christ. They are not following the same men you are following. I don't know them, but they seem to be following the same Christ that I'm following, and being led by the same Spirit that I'm being led by. I have mentioned many times in my testimonies that I am thankful for the Workers that point me to Christ, and not themselves. It seems that the Catholic Church points their people to other men to lead their people. They point to their hierarchy that is led by the Pope, and that is what their people are suppose to follow. They even make their confession to men. Because we are carnal, it is just human to want to follow the leading of men. I hope that we will never be led by men and all the imperfections that could possibly come with this. Most of the workers I know and had been with as their co-workers have always point people to follow Christ NOT to follow them. As Paul wrote in I Cor. 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.hmmmm.... You say the 100 golden friends are ours brothers and sisters in Christ... Just say when this mess in VN is solved, will they come back and have full fellowship/worship meetings with the current friends, Uncle Chau and with the rest of the workers like in the past?
You say the 100 golden friends and us are following the Same Christ, and our brothers and sisters, then they should have FULL worship/emblems fellowship with us like they did in the past, right?Here's what the passage says NIV: 1St Cor 11:1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ Exactly what the workers should be telling us. In other words...You see how I am following Christ.....you should also be following Christ. Hopefully that is the message. Not follow me because I am following Christ. In regards to whom they fellowship with; My hope is that they will all be together again once they are no longer devided by a man/men. But, the very most important thing is that they are following Christ, and being led by the Holy Spirit. One day God will unite all his people. I understand that you would like to make judgement on them, and judge them to not being led by the Spirit based on what man they are following/obeying. I choose not to judge. Thats the Lords job.
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Post by snow on Mar 3, 2014 12:44:52 GMT -5
The problem that I see in your thinking is that you seem to be following the leading of certain men. This is a problem, because with this thinking, you are susceptible to the imperfections of the men you are being led by. I may get some disagreements with this but one of the reasons I continue to fellowship with the F&W is that most workers still continue to point to Christ as our leader. They point us to Christ, as our perfect example, and the leading of the Holy Spirit. I know for sure that the Workers we have in our field this year are doing this. The day that I find that the above is no longer the case, but instead they are pointing at themselves, and asking me to follow them (the leading of man) is the day I no longer continue to fellowship with them. If you are following a man (or men) they can lead you right off a cliff. Your focus will become wrong. Your vision will become carnal. You will become spiritually blind. Maybe this is why you cannot understand how these people can still be our brothers in Christ. They are not following the same men you are following. I don't know them, but they seem to be following the same Christ that I'm following, and being led by the same Spirit that I'm being led by. I have mentioned many times in my testimonies that I am thankful for the Workers that point me to Christ, and not themselves. It seems that the Catholic Church points their people to other men to lead their people. They point to their hierarchy that is led by the Pope, and that is what their people are suppose to follow. They even make their confession to men. Because we are carnal, it is just human to want to follow the leading of men. I hope that we will never be led by men and all the imperfections that could possibly come with this. Most of the workers I know and had been with as their co-workers have always point people to follow Christ NOT to follow them. As Paul wrote in I Cor. 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.hmmmm.... You say the 100 golden friends are ours brothers and sisters in Christ... Just say when this mess in VN is solved, will they come back and have full fellowship/worship meetings with the current friends, Uncle Chau and with the rest of the workers like in the past?
You say the 100 golden friends and us are following the Same Christ, and our brothers and sisters, then they should have FULL worship/emblems fellowship with us like they did in the past, right?This mindset makes me ill! Such a warped system minded statement. You do not have to be a 2x2 to follow Christ. If you think that, you have been brain washed to the full extent they were capable of. You follow a system instead of your Christ. The way they do things mean more than him. No religion or religious system is any more 'right' than any other and people can find God in any way they choose to. Exclusivity, thinking you are the only ones right with God is just misguided on soooo many levels. That is why I left the 2x2's. They are incapable of understanding they aren't the only right way. They are incapable of understanding that the workers are not any better than any other religious leader out there. It is also one of many reasons why I am not a Christian . They are all exclusive and just live in slightly bigger 'ponds'. I find that to be the height of arrogance and distasteful.
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Post by jondough on Mar 3, 2014 12:49:54 GMT -5
No, the workers and friends should come back to them, not the other way around. Add in some apologies by the workers would be a good idea as well. No, I don't think so. Some of their minds (Uncle Hoa and a few others) have been poison with TTT website. So, it will not be healthy for the 2x2 church to join them or for them to come back to the fellowship with their present condition. It is better for us and them to go our separate ways. Uncle Chau could see this plain and clear as day and have decided NOT to join with Uncle Hoa.
Minhthanh wrote 3/2014: Returning from Australia in 2014, Uncle Châu confirmed to me and the friends that "I never change my worship, for this is the true way from Uncle Fred time till now..."
Uncle Chau admonished me MANY times. Chau wants us to RETURN to the 2x2 fellowship. " Please, don't waste your time on the Internet, reading many things there you may lose your soul!" Uncle Châu's letter confirming that the two by two way is the true way of God. My reply was " On internet not only find out many things good for my decision, but also have had sweet fellowship throughout the world, with love and understanding. I had told uncle Châu as I had post in this board that, we will never return to that fellowship just because seeing all the happening in VN, with lies, untrue, injustice, without unity and love. We are happy now."
1. I (brother Châu) only hope Hoàn Xuan not to read the stuff on Internet because they are not all true…
2. As I said: this way is the Kingdom of God, His House… We have to preserve.
~~ Darrel and Lyle should apologize to the friends, Uncle Hoa and uncle Chau for the Mess which they caused... but to join with the 100 ex-golden friends, I don't think so.
This kind of judgment just gets me kind of sick. What can a person say about the lack of faith. They don't believe that God will lead his people, and show them if something they read is not right. God will not help his people discern right from wrong. As soon as you read something, it is like "poison"....it is stronger than God. The people that read it are basically stupid, and will simply believe untruths, just because they read it. They read it, and then are basically spiritually killed. Yet.... you expect everyone to believe what you write about Valiant Thor....and that is not at all any type of poison. You expect everyone to believe that there are Aliens below ground....And you believe all this stuff because it's on YouTube. And you expect us all to believe this stuff. Your proof are links to YouTube videos. Nathan, your logic is flawed.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2014 13:13:58 GMT -5
No, I don't think so. Some of their minds (Uncle Hoa and a few others) have been poison with TTT website. So, it will not be healthy for the 2x2 church to join them or for them to come back to the fellowship with their present condition. It is better for us and them to go our separate ways. Uncle Chau could see this plain and clear as day and have decided NOT to join with Uncle Hoa.
Minhthanh wrote 3/2014: Returning from Australia in 2014, Uncle Châu confirmed to me and the friends that "I never change my worship, for this is the true way from Uncle Fred time till now..."
Uncle Chau admonished me MANY times. Chau wants us to RETURN to the 2x2 fellowship. " Please, don't waste your time on the Internet, reading many things there you may lose your soul!" Uncle Châu's letter confirming that the two by two way is the true way of God. My reply was " On internet not only find out many things good for my decision, but also have had sweet fellowship throughout the world, with love and understanding. I had told uncle Châu as I had post in this board that, we will never return to that fellowship just because seeing all the happening in VN, with lies, untrue, injustice, without unity and love. We are happy now."
1. I (brother Châu) only hope Hoàn Xuan not to read the stuff on Internet because they are not all true…
2. As I said: this way is the Kingdom of God, His House… We have to preserve.
~~ Darrel and Lyle should apologize to the friends, Uncle Hoa and uncle Chau for the Mess which they caused... but to join with the 100 ex-golden friends, I don't think so.
This kind of judgment just gets me kind of sick. What can a person say about the lack of faith. They don't believe that God will lead his people, and show them if something they read is not right. God will not help his people discern right from wrong. As soon as you read something, it is like "poison"....it is stronger than God. The people that read it are basically stupid, and will simply believe untruths, just because they read it. They read it, and then are basically spiritually killed. Yet.... you expect everyone to believe what you write about Valiant Thor....and that is not at all any type of poison. You expect everyone to believe that there are Aliens below ground....And you believe all this stuff because it's on YouTube. And you expect us all to believe this stuff. Your proof are links to YouTube videos. Nathan, your logic is flawed. Nathan is a good person but primarily a believer type of person. Once you understand that, you understand his posts a bit better, including Thor and the aliens.
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Post by snow on Mar 3, 2014 15:12:09 GMT -5
This kind of judgment just gets me kind of sick. What can a person say about the lack of faith. They don't believe that God will lead his people, and show them if something they read is not right. God will not help his people discern right from wrong. As soon as you read something, it is like "poison"....it is stronger than God. The people that read it are basically stupid, and will simply believe untruths, just because they read it. They read it, and then are basically spiritually killed. Yet.... you expect everyone to believe what you write about Valiant Thor....and that is not at all any type of poison. You expect everyone to believe that there are Aliens below ground....And you believe all this stuff because it's on YouTube. And you expect us all to believe this stuff. Your proof are links to YouTube videos. Nathan, your logic is flawed. Nathan is a good person but primarily a believer type of person. Once you understand that, you understand his posts a bit better, including Thor and the aliens. Yes, I agree with this. Me, not so much.
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Post by jondough on Mar 3, 2014 16:07:59 GMT -5
JD wrote: This kind of judgment just gets me kind of sick.What can a person say about the lack of faith. They don't believe that God will lead his people, and show them if something they read is not right. God will not help his people discern right from wrong. As soon as you read something, it is like "poison"....it is stronger than God. The people that read it are basically stupid, and will simply believe untruths, just because they read it. They read it, and then are basically spiritually killed. Nathan, your logic is flawed. ~~ I don't think so.(II Theses 2:1-15) Paul wrote: By the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together. That Ye be NOT soon shaken in mind or alarmed, neither by spirit nor by word, nor by letter as from us. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall NOT come, UNTIL there come a "Falling Away" First... Even him whose coming is after the working Satan with all power and signs and wonders. And, with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they receive NOT the love of the Truth, that they might be SAVED. And, for this reason, God shall Send them "Powerful" delusion, that they should believe a LIE; that they ALL might be damned who believe NOT the truth, but had pleasure in Wickedness...
Here is the summary taken by CD.Clearday wrote in 2011: Here is a summary of the trend of Worker Fields in the US over the last 11 years:1998-9 334 Active fields 2010-11 269 Active fields Decline 65 Fields or 19.5% decline Overseer territories showing increases 2 Overseer territories showing no change 4 Overseer territories showing decreases 26 Total 32 Notes: The above comparison reflects domestic US fields and excludes workers who have gone to foreign fields. The number of workers active in the US can be reasonably approximated by doubling the above numbers. This comparison included fields for which one person was assigned as well as fields for which 3 persons were assigned and they would be close to balancing each other. Inactive workers were also excluded from this analysis. Source: Workers' Lists Scott wrote: From clearday saying that 30%-40% have left meetings in the last ten years, and then basing that on 100,000 people. (I do not know how many f&w's there are in the US) A real eye opener there is when you actually put numbers to the percentages. IF there were 100,000 people , then between 30,000 and 40,000 people quit going to meetings in the last ten years.[/color] Quizzer wrote: I believe that the websites about the history and abuses of the 2x2s has considerably reduced the 2x2s. I grew up under a spiritual killing, so I spent much of my time avoiding the friends. When the spiritual killing was removed, I was really stunned to truly evaluate the friends. They did not seem to be middle-class America. I really feel that the Secret Sect book, and all the succeeding investigations, was eye-opening to the portion of 2x2s who left. Thinking that, if someone as disconnected as I could finally find the websites, that there have been many discussing this issue in private. [/quote] You left the part of my post out that makes your logic flawed.....why? I believe you're a good person too Nathan....Just quit judging others.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2014 16:37:48 GMT -5
JD wrote: This kind of judgment just gets me kind of sick.What can a person say about the lack of faith. They don't believe that God will lead his people, and show them if something they read is not right. God will not help his people discern right from wrong. As soon as you read something, it is like "poison"....it is stronger than God. The people that read it are basically stupid, and will simply believe untruths, just because they read it. They read it, and then are basically spiritually killed. Nathan, your logic is flawed. ~~ I don't think so.(II Theses 2:1-15) Paul wrote: By the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together. That Ye be NOT soon shaken in mind or alarmed, neither by spirit nor by word, nor by letter as from us. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall NOT come, UNTIL there come a "Falling Away" First... Even him whose coming is after the working Satan with all power and signs and wonders. And, with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they receive NOT the love of the Truth, that they might be SAVED. And, for this reason, God shall Send them "Powerful" delusion, that they should believe a LIE; that they ALL might be damned who believe NOT the truth, but had pleasure in Wickedness...
Here is the summary taken by CD.Clearday wrote in 2011: Here is a summary of the trend of Worker Fields in the US over the last 11 years:1998-9 334 Active fields 2010-11 269 Active fields Decline 65 Fields or 19.5% decline Overseer territories showing increases 2 Overseer territories showing no change 4 Overseer territories showing decreases 26 Total 32 Notes: The above comparison reflects domestic US fields and excludes workers who have gone to foreign fields. The number of workers active in the US can be reasonably approximated by doubling the above numbers. This comparison included fields for which one person was assigned as well as fields for which 3 persons were assigned and they would be close to balancing each other. Inactive workers were also excluded from this analysis. Source: Workers' Lists Scott wrote: From clearday saying that 30%-40% have left meetings in the last ten years, and then basing that on 100,000 people. (I do not know how many f&w's there are in the US) A real eye opener there is when you actually put numbers to the percentages. IF there were 100,000 people , then between 30,000 and 40,000 people quit going to meetings in the last ten years.[/color] Quizzer wrote: I believe that the websites about the history and abuses of the 2x2s has considerably reduced the 2x2s. I grew up under a spiritual killing, so I spent much of my time avoiding the friends. When the spiritual killing was removed, I was really stunned to truly evaluate the friends. They did not seem to be middle-class America. I really feel that the Secret Sect book, and all the succeeding investigations, was eye-opening to the portion of 2x2s who left. Thinking that, if someone as disconnected as I could finally find the websites, that there have been many discussing this issue in private. [/quote] I should make it clear that I don't see a 40% loss of friends over 10 years. 40% over 20 years would be more accurate. However, in the period studied of 12-13 years in which there was a loss of 20% of the workers, it would appear that around 30% loss of friends in that period would be fairly accurate. Rather than blame it on the actions of the TTT, it would be worthwhile to exam the actions and inactions of the workers as the primary cause of the decline. The workers don't account for all of the decline, but certainly they are responsible for the majority of losses as well as the responsibly for the decline of evangelistic efforts. Had the workers gotten the history and a few other things straightened out right away, the TTT would have been an asset and ally to their efforts. By evading the correction of the history problems in particular, the TTT is at odds with them, to the detriment of their work. Nobody who chooses to maintain their faith in Christ would quit the meetings if they were enjoying their experience, getting treated properly, and were told the truth with full disclosure. If the meetings were producing a good experience for its participants, there would be new people coming in all the time because current participants would want to share that with people they know......that's how churches grow. That would leave only those who chose to abandon a faith in Christ to leave the meetings, which would be logical.
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Post by jondough on Mar 3, 2014 16:57:18 GMT -5
Which part of your logic flaws did I leave out? I posted two more posts but I accidently deleted them. Let me know and I will try to answer them after I come back from work. Thanks. The rest of my post; The reason your logic is flawed is you believe that what the VN people read on the internet is "poison" yet you post things such as Valiant Thor, and Aliens living underground and think it not poison. The stuff you refer to as "poison" is basically history and facts based on verifiable material and research. Yet the internet stuff you constantly post is simply based and backed up by Youtube videos. Nothing more. The logic I'm referring to is, you believe unverified Youtube videos, but obviously do not believe the history Cherie has documented that is all based on verified evidence and research.
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Post by minhthanh on Mar 4, 2014 1:32:00 GMT -5
" Thankyou jondough I have read all your share here with understanding and true love of a brother, who live very far in distance, but very near in spirit.
We have had a wonderful fellowship through decades, Many wokers or overseers who visited our country could impress with it. Till the time overseers and staff overturning everything in order changing become one line with the 2x2ism all over the world. (As they said)
In the past, the workers brought us to God, then continued going to find another souls for God.
As today, we (golden friends) don't have the worker with us all the time. We are all in the leading of God, we can see clearly his care and his guide upon us day by day.
Of course there are still many good workers and friends that we appreciate, but we can't have fellowship with them as we want, because they are still in the system, and very afraid to contact with us. (Like in the astray car, just the driver drive them to the wrong way, they don't want.).
You are still lucky to have these people around you, if things not go too bad, we all still have the wonderful time as before and as you still have, even read about the origin or not.
As to you, I don't want to discus or justify about others, only God know and justify every person for what they do today. I am just thankfull for there is still one worker, day or night sacrifice his's life for bringing the lost sheep to Jesus, as his calling from God.
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