|
Post by christiansburg on Jan 25, 2014 13:03:42 GMT -5
As Clearday wrote "Nathan, the story still isn't "complete". There are still unanswered questions about how Irvine et al got it all going." AND I am totally in Agreement with him. We just learned from Christianburg recently.... That George Walker had known about William Irvine sister story and was telling different workers in 1960s back east coast about it. Unfortunately, George Walker (1898 worker from Ireland or Scotland) didn't give them too much details about William Irvine's sister, like Robert Darling (1905 worker from Ireland or Scotland) did around the same period 1960s in British C. Canada, in Washington state, California and with George Gittens from USA. We've already been lied to by workers about the history so why should we accept another fairy tale about William Irvine's sister? Sorry for your belief about Irvine's sister being a fairy tale. Your assumption is not true. To those who knew Irvine and talked about him first hand it was a real event. And all the chatter won't change that. I was only one step away from Irvine. G Walker and C Hughes knew him and had no reason to be propagating a lie. What some of us are concluding is that they ceased talking about Irvine because his personal life was questionable. The gospel is what it is regardless of failures any of us may have. George and Charlie were remembering their early days among our group. It is a wonderful thing to witness whether you believe it or not.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2014 13:25:07 GMT -5
We've already been lied to by workers about the history so why should we accept another fairy tale about William Irvine's sister? Sorry for your belief about Irvine's sister being a fairy tale. Your assumption is not true. To those who knew Irvine and talked about him first hand it was a real event. And all the chatter won't change that. I was only one step away from Irvine. G Walker and C Hughes knew him and had no reason to be propagating a lie. What some of us are concluding is that they ceased talking about Irvine because his personal life was questionable. The gospel is what it is regardless of failures any of us may have. George and Charlie were remembering their early days among our group. It is a wonderful thing to witness whether you believe it or not. Could you remind us again of what George Walker said about Irvine's sister? I know you mentioned it in another thread but finding it would be like a needle in a haystack. I would like to examine what Walker said and see how it lines up with documented information about his sister. Maybe Cherie would be so kind to comment on it.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Jan 25, 2014 14:46:47 GMT -5
We've already been lied to by workers about the history so why should we accept another fairy tale about William Irvine's sister? The choice is up to you... I just post different ones have mentioned about William Irvine sister. Jesse Lackman wrote: I noticed this Impartial Reporter article mentioned about William Irvine's sister. The Impartial article Newspaper 1910. The Impartial Reporter briefly mentions Irvine's sister: "Change of doctrine has made things different for many, especially for those who were not originally converts of Mr. Wm. Irvine or Mr. Edward Cooney, because unless you hear or believe through a Tramp Preacher, they say there can be no possibility of spiritual divine life, past, present or future. It is immaterial how definite your aspirations or what quickening towards God may have been wrought in your heart or soul previously. So that in other words, derivative or success Christianity is now re-established via William Irvine and Edward Cooney only. This is all the more remarkable and contradictory since William Irvine has a great difficulty to determine his own spiritual Father, and he professedly the great grandfather of all! Some say it was the Rev. John McNeill; some say Wm. Irvine’s sister was the means of spiritual life to him." (8/25/1910 Impartial Reporter) upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c4/Article.pngFrom Jesse Lackman: So the story of Irvine's sister's involvement goes back to 1910. From Cherie's TTT website: In about 1967 or 1968, Robert Darling spoke at Silverdale, British Columbia Canada Convention. His text was Daniel 2: 34, 35 & 45, particularly about the stone "cut out of the mountain without hands," which "filled the whole earth." He then said that the stone was William Irvine's sister. She became very ill and died. According to Robert, she supposedly had a dream which she related to William, which deeply stirred him and in some manner supposedly influenced him religiously from then on. Robert Darling's main point was that we should be crediting Wm's sister God took in death before William Irvine even began preaching--instead of crediting William Irvine with starting this fellowship; and thus, avoid any accusation that this fellowship is man-made. William's sister was, therefore, "the stone made without hands." Donald Fisher, a California brother worker, wrote Fred Miller a letter sometime before 1982: " In 1967, I talked with Robert Darling, at the Olympia convention grounds. At that time he told me that of the first 116 Workers who went forth, only eight were yet alive, he being one and he told me the names of the other seven. Our conversation turned unto Early Days. Robert told an interesting account of how the sister of Wm. Irvine turned religious. He mentioned that in his own thoughts he had the feeling Irvine's sister had contacted the truth (the faith passed down from Jesus' day) and passed this on unto Wm. Irvine." ~~ 1905 2x2s workers list of 200 names. www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_lists/wrkr1905.php#DarlingRob In his speech: "Following Up the First Century Church," Dr. Jaenen, one of the (2x2) church historians professors in Ontario, Canada alleges that Irvine heard this fellowship with people who believed in apostolic faith "A number of tracts and pamphlets directed against us have identified William Irvine as the Founder of our faith in Nenagh, Tipperary County, in October, 1897. The fact is that William Irvine was in contact with people who believed in the "Apostolic faith". The homeless ministry did begin in these parts and spread throughout the remnant country very rapidly, so that within the first few yeaTh of the 20th century, there were scores and scores of young men and women (and some were not so young) who went into the revived the itinerant ministry. Cornelius J. Jaenen (1927- ) (a 2x2 friend) has written a book in 2003. The Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship. (A document history of the early church and restorationists movements)www.legaspublishing.comFrom RGR in Canada, Ontario. Dec, 2005 Hi Nathan,While staying in our home a few days in November, 2005, George Gittins, a senior Manitoba worker told us the following story: One year in the early 1970s George was in charge of facilities at the Calloway, Nebraska USA convention. At about 3:00 a.m. one night during the convention the wind got up and George decided to get out of bed and make sure the big meeting tent was properly tied down to withstand the gale. After he had secured the tent and was about to head back to bed he happened to notice someone walking down the road in the dark. As the figure approached, George recognized the person to be Robert Darling, one of the visiting workers. (The first known workers' list indicates Rob Darling went into the ministry in Ireland 1905.) George decided to start whistling as he did not want to scare the poor man. When they connected, George asked Robert if everything was okay, to which he replied in the affirmative. Robert told him that often when he can't sleep at night he gets up and goes for a walk. George said to him "I bet you are missing a good cup of tea. I was recently sent some good Red Rose tea from Canada, so let's go over to the cook house and I'll make you a good cup of tea." Robert readily agreed. So between 3:00 and 4:00 a.m. during the middle of convention the two men sat in the cook house drinking tea made the proper way (start with fresh water, don't boil it too long, heat the pot first etc.). During the course of their impromptu visit, Robert talked about the early days. George told Robert that he did not have any concerns about the beginnings of our faith back in Ireland, but wondered if he would tell him about it. Without hesitation, Robert proceeded to do so. He told George that William Irvine heard the gospel through his sister who was working as a domestic helper for a family who had moved to Ireland from the Alps region of Germany/Switzerland/France = Waldensians! some years earlier because of religious persecution. (There may have been other families who had moved to Ireland as well and were in fellowship with the family for whom William Irvine's sister worked.) In any event, this family told William's sister about their faith and the true ministry, and apparently she attended fellowship meetings in their home. After making her choice she got in touch with her brother, William, who was preaching for the Faith Mission in Ireland. He came and met these folks and after hearing the gospel from them, also made his choice and was baptized. William then left the Faith Mission (12/1900) and went out into the ministry as the first modern day worker. The following day George Gittens went to see Garret Hughes who was also at the convention and told him what Robert Darling had shared with him the night before. Garret's comment was words to the effect that Robert would know because he was there. I suggested to George that this story should really be told because it seemed to add an important piece to the puzzle that had many folks here in North America and other places confused and bitter about the origins of our faith. George's comment was, "Yes, I agree it should be told. You can tell this story to whomever you wish."I asked George about the family/s that Robert mentioned. What happened to them? Robert apparently told George that a number of their descendants had gone into the work and at the time of him telling the story, there were still a number in the ministry--I believe, in North America. Robert also told George that the family/s in question did not want their name/s spread around and being given public credit/notoriety for the revival of the faith at the turn of the century. (Why, George was not sure. Perhaps they did not want the undue attention.) So George did not pursue finding out their name/s and, I presume, at the time the names were incidental to Robert's very interesting story. Robert did tell George, however, that he knew the family concerned and had been in their home. In a later discussion George said that it was certainly scriptural for William Irvine and his sister to profess and be baptized through an elder. He referred to Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts. George also told us that some years ago when he and Calvin Casselman (now deceased) were together in BC, Cornelius Jaenen, the author of "The Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship", had come to visit them (Cornelius had professed through Calvin). George used the occasion to tell Cornelius what Robert Darling had told him about the early days. Cornelius' response was that he was not surprised because Robert's story was consistent with things he had heard over the years and come across in his research. RGR, December, 2005 Posted on the Truth Message Board 12/1/2013When I post the information about William Irvine sister on the Truth message board a man goes by the name Christianburg wrote to me in private about William Irvine sister! " This is something I heard from George Walker and Charlie Hughes in 1963 but have never mentioned it to others because there was no one to point to beyond Irvine's sister. So I always felt it would be too unbelievable. Thanks for bringing this up again." Then I wrote back to Christianburg: " Wow! Christiansburg.... I haven't heard that George Walker and Charlie Hughes mentioned anything about WI sister in 1963. Is there anyway you can mention or tell this on TMB, Please! your information is VERY important. Tell us what you remember from George Walker and Charlie Hughes. Many ex-2x2 and some friends, maybe workers have called Robert Darling, and George Gittens TWO crazy senile workers!Then Cherie Kropp posted this on the same topic which we were discussing about William Irvine sister without KNOWING what Christianburg had written to me in private about George Walker and Charlie Hughes had told him in 1963. Cherie wrote, "Christiansburg, I'm not going to address the Irvine's sister theory, other than to say that in 25 years I've studied the history, I've only found 2 sources that mention this theory in writing...both are heresay and not primary documentation. Robert Darling didn't write that "Irvine heard it from his sister." Someone (George Gittins) claims he heard Rob Darling speak on the early days and claims Rob Darling referred to it, and the Impartial Reporter. There is also documentation where Rob Darling refutes this story. There is nothing written by the 12 first workers. Click Here for TTT Link for in depth discussion about the "Heard it From the Sister Theory". Then Christianburg reply: "Thanks Cherie, No need to move it yet. Maybe someone will change the subject. I also heard George Walker and Charlie Hughes refer to Wm.Irvins's sister as having a great influence on his thinking by speaking about how she had been spiritually moved. However, I have not chosen to talk about this either because there is no written documentation about that event. When I referred to the Waldenses it was not to established any form of succession but only to suggest that in the past there have been people who tried a 2x2 ministry. The discussion took place on special meeting rounds 1963. George was a visiting worker at the time. There were about 16 workers in the room. We all sat in silence and listened to the two of them. Of the 16 workers about 9 are dead and only two are still in the work. I was 23 yrs old, one of the 16 workers there. I don't recall a question being asked in reference to anyone in particular. They talked about how the gospel had moved out from Ireland. More specifically it centered around Wm. Irvine and his inspiration to leave the Faith Mission and that he gave his sister credit for influencing him. "professing.proboards.com/thread/21463/shape-shapeless-movement-critique-thread?page=2~~~ NathanB: Now, we know George Walker and Charlie Hughes were telling/sharing about William Irvine's sister story to the workers back in the east coast in 1960s, as Robert Darling did in the west coast 1960-70s... So, Robert Darling and George Gittens were NOT crazy after all, eh... Nathan ~ Thanks for providing that information about William Irvine's sister. I wasn't aware of that part of the history of the 2x2's and appreciated you sharing it with us. Thanks for filling in the gaps!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2014 14:56:21 GMT -5
Faune, having visited with Robert Darling personally about the sister story, it was not at all like you thank someone for relating to you. Please be cautious in accepting that as true as presented to you now.
|
|
|
Post by Mary on Jan 25, 2014 15:13:55 GMT -5
Dennis, could you please tell us what you remember about Robert darlings sister's story?
|
|
|
Post by Mary on Jan 25, 2014 15:26:44 GMT -5
Where did you get this line from Nathan? Did you make it up? The Moravans did not come from the Waldensians although they later had some connection. They were a separate movement that broke from the Catholic church the same as Luther, the Waldensians and others did. The Waldensain church and the Moravan churches still exist separately today. They are and were separate churches. You might as well say they come from the Catholic church but I see you have left that out.
Nathan wrote: Waldensians -> Moravians -> John Wesley -> Dwight L. Moody -> George Govan (Faith Mission) -> William Irvine, et al.
The Morvians from wikipedia: The reforms of Jan Hus, which included providing the Scriptures to the people in their own language and making both elements of communion available to the people, were popular with the Czech people, but met extreme opposition from church authorities. Hus was executed, but his preaching and writings were instrumental in the formation of the Hussite movement. The Hussite movement broke into several strands, one of which (the smallest) became known as the Unity of the Brethren.
The Unity of the Brethren (Czech: Jednota bratrská; Latin: Unitas Fratrum), also known as Czech or Bohemian Brethren, is a Christian denomination whose roots are in the pre-Reformation work of priest and philosopher Jan Hus, who was martyred in 1415.
Within fifty years of Hus' death, a contingent of his followers had become independently organised as the "Bohemian Brethren" (Čeští bratři) or Unity of the Brethren (Jednota bratrská), which was founded in Kunvald, Bohemia, in 1457. They received episcopal ordination through the Waldensians in 1467
|
|
|
Post by faune on Jan 25, 2014 16:25:39 GMT -5
Dennis, could you please tell us what you remember about Robert darlings sister's story? Thanks, Mary! I was going to ask Dennis the same question and you beat me to it! Since Dennis is familiar with this Robert Darling, I would love to hear his side of the story, too!
When Nathan shared those posts from his website relating to some connection between William Irvine's sister and the 2x2 movement, it was the first time I had heard of it. I guess I missed out on some of the details of the earlier groups that Nathan used to speak about in his posts? I appreciated being filled in by you all, as I had heard about this man named Cornelius Jaenen in the past and wondered what his connection was to the history of the 2x2 movement? It seems he wrote his own book on the subject of the 2x2 history before William Irvine? How interesting to hear the rest of the story! See Nathan's reference from an earlier post on this same page:
|
|
|
Post by faune on Jan 25, 2014 16:44:23 GMT -5
Faune, having visited with Robert Darling personally about the sister story, it was not at all like you thank someone for relating to you. Please be cautious in accepting that as true as presented to you now. Dennis ~ I did notice in what Nathan shared earlier Cherie's comments to another on TMB regarding this matter. That's why I would like to know if Robert Darling later denied the rumors, how they got started in the first place? Was it another attempt to "re-write the 2x2 story" for those who remain within the fold? I noticed the name of Jaensen is mentioned and I believe he wrote a book on the fellowship in which he traced it back to the first century?
|
|
|
Post by faune on Jan 25, 2014 16:54:15 GMT -5
Thanks, Mary! I was going to ask Dennis the same question and you beat me to it! Since Dennis is familiar with this Robert Darling, I would love to hear his side of the story, too!
When Nathan shared those posts from his website relating to some connection between William Irvine's sister and the 2x2 movement, it was the first time I had heard of it. I guess I missed out on some of the details of the earlier groups that Nathan used to speak about in his posts? I appreciated being filled in by you all, as I had heard about this man named Cornelius Jaenen in the past and wondered what his connection was to the history of the 2x2 movement? It seems he wrote his own book on the subject of the 2x2 history before William Irvine? How interesting to hear the rest of the story!
~~~ Here are some more interesting church history gaps for you to read. ~~ 1) A Lamp in the Dark- The Untold History of the Bible of the early Christians survival AFTER the book Acts of the apostles/Holy Spirit . 50 millions families killed (020:18). Rejection literally changing the body Jesus into bread/wine (027:29). www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Osuctvq4QU~~ 2) The ALPS -The Story of the Waldenses: God has always had a remnant left on the planet throughout the ages of time. This is the story of one such group, who escaped to the Alps, when Rome was about to conquer Jerusalem. They were, part of this woman in the wilderness, spoken of, in Scripture (Revelation 12: 9-17). Paul was in Rome during Reign of Nero 68 A.D. he had many converts. They fled to the Alps Valley of Piedmont (Northern Italy, Southern part of France) in the 4th century. Emperor Constantine. Paganism combine with Christianity in Rome. Sun Worship. At (21:00)Their Missionaries went forth 2 and 2 as Jesus send forth His apostles. The older ones to train his younger companions. They suffered/tortured greatly by the Roman Church.www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d2lPB5xxuA&NR=1&feature=fvwp3) Someone wrote: After watching the video (Tares among Wheat) about one-half of this video today, I found that around 40 minutes into it, you start to discover the attempts by the RCC hierarchy to discredit the reformers/Waldensians and sola scriptura. Then, around 1:01 minutes, you start seeing how Pope Gregory XVI and his predecessor, Pope Leo XII, were involved even more in forgeries that transpired regarding Papal powers. Also, you will learn about the underground Papal dungeons with torture chambers and ovens, connected to the RCC during the different Inquisitions, being still in use up into the middle of the 1800's next to the Vatican during Pope Gregory XVI's reign. As you continue, you learn more about these forgeries created by the Jesuits, around 1:18 minutes, regarding Papal power and the clever way in which they were presented to the people. The people involved in this effort were very skillful in the art of deception, which becomes apparent in their forgeries believed to be factual for a number of years. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wep1KFb3wnsFrom the book: The Apostles' Doctrine and fellowship written by Dr. Cornelius Jaenen. (A professing friend 2x2 Go-preachers in Canada) http:// www.legaspublishing.comDr. Jaenen wrote: In March 1898, when Irvine was preaching in Borrisokane, in County Tipperary, Edward Cooney approach him, "each claiming the liberty to follow Jesus as (he) received progressive light from God by the Spirit." In June 1898, several of these workers, who were still affiliated with various denominations, met in Kilee to consider ministry requisites as described in Matthew chapter 10 gospel and related scripture. Cognizant that these scriptures referred specifically to the messianic ministry among the Jews, they also concluded that the conditions for the ministry REMAIN Unchanging throughout the New Testament. The commission was broaden beyond Palestine, the special manifestations of healing and exorcism were fulfilled, but the requirement for apostolic ministry remained Unaltered. John Long, Fred Hughes, and William Irvine decided to launch out "by faith" like the Twelve apostles. Others joined them, including Edward Cooney, who gave up his job, renounced his inheritance, sold his possessions, ( £1300 is equivalent to New Zealand $230,000 now, using New Zealand Reserve Bank historic inflation data) distributed the money among the poor to become what became known as a "Tramp Preacher." Ben Boles, William Gill, Tom Turner, and John Sullivan gave up their employment to become poor, itinerant "Go-Preachers" completely dependent evangelists. In 1900 another group joined forces with them. Robert Hamilton and David Donaldson is Derrygonnelly became so dissatisfied with the ministry of Patrick O' Donavan in the Methodist church that they withdrew and started their own meetings in the Hamilton's home. Within three years of joining forces, their assembly produced Six persons who sold their possessions and went into the ministry. In 1901 a number of Todd's Christian workers joined forces with the "Tramps" or "Go-Preachers". William Irvine's experience and contacts, despite his sometimes erratic behavior, enable him to assume a leading role in the movement. So it was that a number of men and the women from various religious groups came together as the nucleus of what they believed to be a revival of an apostolic ministry. As the 2x2s Go-Preachers movement expanded beyond the Irish counties and the British Isles, a primitive hierarchy, or collective oversight by senior ministers, was established over the "fields" of an expanding world-wide community. This eventually gave the rise to questions of origins and founders. There followed a situation not dissimilar to that challenging Inquisitors in the 12th and 13th Centuries who were Unable to determine who had founded the heresies they sought to Exterminate. The medieval heretics (Waldensians, Cathars, Lollards, Vaudois, etc) themselves were unaware of such founders and they believed that the preachers they knew were true apostles inasmuch as they lived according to evangelical precepts.The Irish revivals produced a similar situation because leadership was COLLECTIVE and evangelization was NOT carried out by Individuals. There is sufficient evidence to support the interpretation given by one of the original participants, George Walker (1898 Go-Preacher), presented to the American Selective Service in 1942. William Irvine and Edward Cooney were eventually expelled by their co-workers. William Irvine asserted, at one point, that he had personally FOUNDED the movement but it was a claim that was NEVER admitted generally by the community. It was a claim resurrected almost a century later by detractors of the movement who sought to associate it with one particular individual. In fact, AFTER William Irvine being excluded from the ministry 1914 for moral laxity, Irvine adopted outlandish millennialist theology, perhaps influenced by the theories of Charles Russel and the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, and repair to Jerusalem where he waited the expected Second Advent in 1914, believing that he was one of the two faithful witnesses mentioned in Apocalypse (Revelation chapter 11). Nathan ~ Thanks again for providing some additional information from Dr. Cornelius Jaenen's book on the roots of the fellowship. I never read his book, but I enjoyed exploring this past year some sacred texts relating to the early church fathers and different beliefs held within the early Christian church along with the history of the Roman Catholic Church. I wasn't researching the 2x2 stories, only the different groups that surfaced back in time among the early Christians. You mentioned a few of these groups in your earlier posts. However, I missed the conversations in the past when you went into more detail along these lines ~ I wasn't on TMB at the time and only have been posting for over a year now.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2014 18:54:17 GMT -5
It is interesting to read of these accounts of WI's early days. The question I have is this. If it was perfectly acceptable for WI and his sister to hear the gospel from this married couple in a home and the sister to be baptised by the man of the house why do the 2x2 workers say that we can only be saved if we hear the gospel by unmarried preachers who go out 2x2? NathanB, are you able to tell me how this evolution occurred?
|
|
|
Post by blandie on Jan 25, 2014 19:04:02 GMT -5
I think I read somewhere that C. Jaenen doesn't any longer believe that there is any direct continuation from the F&W's back to Christ. I know someone who has that book and I read it but I don't think I remember any place where he said stuff about Irvine's sister. If someone has a page number I would like to look it up.
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 25, 2014 19:21:06 GMT -5
I was also given to think that all that Cornelius wrote WAS NOT necessarily about ONLY the 2x2 ministry/fellowship....he mentions OTHER denominations even within that part that Nathan posted above....that written in that quote IS NOT all about the 2x2's....there is nothing in any of his writings that indicate just how or why WI's sister "influence" or "inspired" him.....I don't think it unusual when we start losing family members as WI did that we begin to think about what is perhaps the afterlife to be esp. in ourselves.....I understand it that WI's mother passed away and his sister passed away and maybe another relative or two within perhaps a short number of years or time and this is where his "sister inspired him" or his "sister gave him some sort of idea about the right way"...etc....I have not seen one declaration that WI's sister professed within a home meeting nor that she had any kind of religious profession....it seems in the long run of things that she just passed away long before WI would have thought she normally would have done so. It seem his loss of her made for more serious considerations about his soul and how to do what...and moreover IF he'd been instructed by her the right way to do the 2x2 business, no way in God's world would he have professed or come to Christ under another denominational preacher as he is said to have done....so the "inspiration" from his sister must have been more just the loss of her at such a young age! JMO
|
|
|
Post by gecko45 on Jan 25, 2014 19:24:31 GMT -5
I think I read somewhere that C. Jaenen doesn't any longer believe that there is any direct continuation from the F&W's back to Christ. I know someone who has that book and I read it but I don't think I remember any place where he said stuff about Irvine's sister. If someone has a page number I would like to look it up. I believe that I have heard the same thing concerning Dr Jaenen, actually I dont know if he ever promoted the idea of "unbroken apostolic succession". From what I understand his book was just focusing on the various primitive style fellowship groups over the centuries (and thier persecution).
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 25, 2014 19:26:47 GMT -5
BTW, there is a written accounting of GW's about the beginning of the 2x2's, he was visiting in MO. I believe and a young sister worker of that day was able to take everything he said down in shorthand and later was able to type it out in normal wording.....I read that accounting several times...I used to have a copy on my computer that blew up and haven't tried to contact anyone to get another copy, but I think I shared that with Cherie....the sister worker died in recent days, so I can't go that route...but have a suspicion where I might find it....
But the point I need to make, I did NOT read within that precisely written accounting where GW said ONE word about WI's sister......so what was said before 16 workers I can't say the why the two accountings would be that different.....though we may understand the why some day.
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 25, 2014 19:32:11 GMT -5
I think I read somewhere that C. Jaenen doesn't any longer believe that there is any direct continuation from the F&W's back to Christ. I know someone who has that book and I read it but I don't think I remember any place where he said stuff about Irvine's sister. If someone has a page number I would like to look it up. I believe that I have heard the same thing concerning Dr Jaenen, actually I dont know if he ever promoted the idea of "unbroken apostolic succession". From what I understand his book was just focusing on the various primitive style fellowship groups over the centuries (and thier persecution). Gecko45, An overseer sent me two pages of what CJ wrote in his book or the summary of what he wrote and no, I didn't take it he was working on this "continuing line of Apostles from the Acts of the Apostles" either....nor did he mention anything about how WI's sister got WI saved, etc Anything I've ever read about WI's sister leads me to believe that HER DEATH was what moved him to begin to be concerned for his soul's sake....losing her at such a young age inspired him or moved him to come out of the coal mines and work elsewhere where he would be learning or doing the Godly thing.....IF she had been professing through such a home mtg. NO way in the world would WI professed through another false prophet such as Robert McNeil....apparently WI's push was to get saved.....and he went to the only place HE KNEW where to get saved! His sister saving him through her profession in the home mtgs. doesn't make sense! Inspiring him to get concerned about his own soul's sake...yes...her death would do that!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2014 20:22:05 GMT -5
No it does not answer it NathanB The workers today would have us believe that to be saved we must hear the gospel from a couple of them that have gone out as Jesus told his disciples to go out. Clearly this did not happen with WI and his sister. I am B and R 3rd generation but God showed me the error of the 2x2's a few years ago. My Dad met WI when Dad was young. There is no need to quote the bible to me. So back to the question, are you able to answer it?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2014 20:37:12 GMT -5
I believe that I have heard the same thing concerning Dr Jaenen, actually I dont know if he ever promoted the idea of "unbroken apostolic succession". From what I understand his book was just focusing on the various primitive style fellowship groups over the centuries (and thier persecution). There is a page in Dr. J book hinting of apostolic succession..... I will try to post it tomorrow night. In his book he didn't mention about WI sister.... I wonder if the senior workers who helped him proof reading his book felt it was better to leave it out. Too bad, he couldn't talk with Robert Darling and George Walker when they were still ALIVE in 1960s. You mean page 535 as he concludes the book that 'in our efforts to trace the continuity of primitive Christian ideals over the centuries, no unbroken successions or continuous activities of a particular identifiable group been documented. Nevertheless, no century appears to have been without some witness to these ideals.' (Page 535 Conclusion) He finally ends the book on page 542 referring to the contemporary (Irish) movement, and after speaking of how 'these assemblies of Christians' may be threatened by "conservative evangelical Protest ideology," his last two sentences are: 'Will the spirit of the primitive church and concepts and practices of evangelical poverty, apostolic preaching, lay participation and charitable community be dissipated once again? Will the apostles' doctrine and fellowship survive, or need to be restored again in the twenty-first century?'
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2014 21:12:47 GMT -5
No it does not answer it NathanB The workers today would have us believe that to be saved we must hear the gospel from a couple of them that have gone out as Jesus told his disciples to go out. Clearly this did not happen with WI and his sister. I am B and R 3rd generation but God showed me the error of the 2x2's a few years ago. My Dad met WI when Dad was young. There is no need to quote the bible to me. So back to the question, are you able to answer it? I answered you with scriptures... And the workers teach.... People can hear the gospel through the friends, church elders and the workers!... WI and his sister heard it through the church elders! who had Sunday morning meetings in their home. The Faith Mission did NOT believe or teach Sunday worship with emblems or taken the communion.That is not what the workers teach. They say, and I have heard it countless times that only through hearing the gospel preached by them can one be saved. Are you saying that this is not so?
|
|
|
Post by Mary on Jan 25, 2014 21:36:43 GMT -5
Nathan, I thought it was WI sister that had contact with those who had Sunday morning meeting in their home, now you are saying that William and his sister met these people? Did William meet them or did he only hear about it from his sister?
Nathan you are trying to make a theory by adding a few scripture here and there and a few other movements that also existed at the time. We know it was a time of restoration and many groups were forming at this time and claim their heritage from history such as you try and claim the 2x2s. There has never been any proof that Irvine had anything to do with the Waldensians except by making up stuff. Broadband is a person who tried to claim the history of the Brethren church from the Waldensians in his book which you often quote and twist to try and fit into the 2x2s history.
Nathan it is about honesty, and you are trying to bend and twist what is not possible to bend and twist. You are perpetuating the deception. There were other groups around but Irvine clear and simple broke from the Faith Mission. it is clear the 2x2s were started around 1898, and what you wrote above spells that out clearly. No continuation from anything, but a new group formed by men.
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Jan 25, 2014 22:31:02 GMT -5
There is a page in Dr. J book hinting of apostolic succession... A "thesis" is “a proposition to be proved or one advanced without proof.” Summarizing his studies and research, Dr. Jaenen's opinion is that “The Thesis of Apostolic Succession" has problems as it relates to the Two by Two church. Before it was published, Nathan and many others who were aware that Dr. Jaenen was researching and writing his book fully expected him to trace a direct line through ancient history back to the apostles. This expectation was predicated on his earlier writings and their trust in their leaders who told them the ministry of their church was started by Jesus on the "Shores of Galilee." To his credit, Dr. Jaenen's book does NOT claim that the Two by Two church started on the “Shores of Galilee,” and he does not assert that it is of Apostolic Succession. Further, throughout Section C of his book, Dr. Jaenen states in essence that he was NOT able to trace a continuous line of succession of the Two by Two church back to the early New Testament Christian church. His conclusion is summarized in these two statements in his book: “In our efforts to trace the continuity of primitive Christian ideals over the centuries, no unbroken successions or continuous activities of a particular identifiable group have been documented.” (p. 535) “But we have been unable to establish from the documentary sources accessible to us a continuous, unbroken chain of either conventicles [meetings or gatherings] or poor itinerant preachers from the early centuries to the present.” (p. 538)Dr. Jaenen has admitted: "I…will confess there was a brief period when I too thought there was an unbroken apostolic succession of ‘workers’ from the first century to our day…There was no unbroken consistent line of ‘workers’ from the first century to our day (even the Roman Catholic succession is tenuous at times) but the Spirit was always working in the world to retain faith until Jesus returns. And so there were almost certainly ‘true believers’ in every age and century somewhere, but not in the sense of a constant visible community or fellowship." (Personal Communication, Feb. 6, 2007) Historical sources indicate that the exact time for the inception of the sect was August, 1897. [Source: John Long's Journal, Chapter 5, 1897] Dr. Jaenen gives the place and time for the movement's start: "By the last decade of the nineteenth century, a number of religious activities in the British Isles gave rise to a movement which FIRST manifested itself at Nenagh, in County Tipperary, and soon spread throughout Ireland, and eventually throughout the world by the end of the twentieth century." (p. 522)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2014 23:02:46 GMT -5
I will show my finding which is the opposite of Dr. J..... There is an apostolic succession among the Vaudois, or Paul's followers for 1800 yrs. The original Vaudois believe and teach in Jesus 2x2 New Testament apostolic succession. The 2x2 has workers/apostolic succession for 115 since William Irvine...... Under pressure from the exes and those who do NOT know the history of the Vaudios, they spooked Dr. J to recant his belief on apostolic succession. He should have stood firmed and NOT be shaken under the pressure. I own and have read Dr J's book. He was too honest, after searching the history of the Vaudois and the Waldenenians, to besmirch his professional reputation by asserting something which could not be proven. Under the pressure of the facts, he made his stand for the truth--much to his credit. You are tilting at the windmills that Dr. J's research proved to be simply wishful thinking.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2014 23:20:58 GMT -5
Sure, ladies, I'll share my memories. First the setting.
Having been summoned from Olympia Convention Grounds where I had been left alone with the responsibility of some 15,000 square feet of flying canvas in the form of tents a couple of weeks before the set dates of Olympia Convention, and worth as I personally knew from having helped build them over $40,000.00. I took that position of trust very seriously. When I received the call the morning of the day before the Silverdale Convention to find a car and get up to Siverdale as quickly as possible, I asked worriedly about those tents being left unattended.
I was told to prepare them for dry windy weather, as no rain was forecast, and not to worry about them, just get up there and look up my overseer ASAP upon arriving. which I proceeded to do, and reached that location shortly after 1:00 PM. Parked the car and went looking for my overseer. I had just found him, when Scott Vale came running up the Silverdale convention hill to the dinning tent area, actually hollering "Have you heard the news, have you heard the news?"
Neither my overseer nor I knew what he was even referring to, and so replied to the negative. He said, as he came up to us quite short of breath, "MAN is just walking on the moon, right NOW! He has just landed there!" Then he turned to my overseer and said, "Now that sure makes a lot of false prophets, doesn't it Tharold?"
Tharold, looked at me square in the eye as we both recalled my asking him what he was going to do when man DID walk on the moon, after stating in a "2&2 Gospel Meeting" of ours that man would never set foot on the moon!" (I have previously related in this forum why I did not agree with that comment, as I believed the bible left record for me that man would walk on the moon, if given time long enough.) He answered very soberly, "Yes, Scott it sure does."
Nothing more was said between us, and I was left to wonder why I had been summoned to attend that convention. Was told later by some of the younger brothers that Earnest Nelson had wanted me there as I was leaving that fall for Northern Europe to be a worker there.
These are reasons why my memory is so clear regarding this period of time. Now then, prior to that I did not know of a man, Robert Darling, who I met there for the first time.
At that convention in his afternoon sermon, he related how William Irvine's sister had died, and her empty place at the table brought William such grief that he turned to "God" and supposedly left his previous life to become a worker. He referred to her absence being the stone carved out of the mountains without hands. Naturally curious, I arranged to go for a walk with him asking if I could raise some questions in my mind. He agreed unhesitatingly.
That was when I first learned of William Irvine previously fathering a child out of wedlock. I specifically asked if there was any connection between his sister and the 2&2 ministry Irvine was later to help establish using former Faith Mission workers. He told me "absolutely not." I asked if that was when William began preaching what we know "today." He said, "no that was when he went into the Faith Mission work." Later, he and a number of others under his direction decided to begin preaching "along 2&2 lines" the exact same words John Long used in his diary which came to my attention in the early 90's, and which having been first sent to me and after reading I advised ought to be sent to Cherie, and Paul Abenroth agreed with me.
Now this is an accurate first hand account to the best of my memory of what happened at that convention in the fall of 1969 as I recall.
|
|
|
Post by gecko45 on Jan 25, 2014 23:31:17 GMT -5
Thank you for that Dennis, I hope you record for posterity everything you learned and experienced while in the work. Some of the most "trivial" of things might one day be very important to make the truth about matters known.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jan 25, 2014 23:35:45 GMT -5
The truth will speak for itself... and let the readers be the judges. Yes, I have his book too, I study and compare with the information that I have. I had sent him information on the Vaudois history when he was doing his research on the book. I was Hoping he would look, and dig deeper into the Vaudois history, with his credentials as a historian, he could get information that many of us don't have accessed to. He should have stood firmly and NOT be shaken under pressure by those who do NOT know the Vaudois church history themselves. It shows him to be unstable, blowing with the wind, in his thinking. You've gotta be kidding Nathan. You expect us to trust your convoluted accounting of history more than the acclaimed academic Dr. Cornelius J. Jaenen? Show us some workers lists between 1890 and 1900 please.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jan 25, 2014 23:43:09 GMT -5
"In his own thoughts" doesn't sound very convincing to me Nathan.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Jan 25, 2014 23:43:18 GMT -5
I totally agree with this Nathan. I know how I have judged this issue of Ol' Willie's sister.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jan 26, 2014 0:13:57 GMT -5
So Nathan,
Now that I know that we used to be the "Vaudois"
When and who decided to drop the name?
simple answer please....No cut & Paste
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 0:18:24 GMT -5
You have got it wrong Jon. We were the Waldensians or was that the Morovians. Hey I got a great idea. Lets not have a name.
|
|