|
Post by faune on Jan 28, 2014 11:53:20 GMT -5
Christianburg... It was a joke! from Ram. He thought I would jumped in both feet with his Dorthy's letter as historical fact. He made it up! a few yrs. back to make fun of William Irvine sister story. No, Ma'am, never told that, just told I was too great a sinner to be allowed in contact with good "professing people." Actually wanted to die being so misunderstood and misjudged knowing at that time there was nothing I could do about it nor about that kangaroo court led by a growing senile old man whose socks fell out of his hat onto our living room floor and were retrieved by a younger female worker accompanying him that day.
Later when that female worker came with a companion to deliver that letter of excommunication, it seemed like enduring a live nightmare. Still have that letter and copies of it. Nothing for anyone to be proud of, vague references to what I had supposedly done wrong, just saying I was guilty of committing a host of sins which were absolutely untrue with no way to disprove it, nor appeal.
For someone trying to be the very sincerest and most dedicated "professing person" possible, it was a real heart breaker. Those few who did come to my defense were told by those knowing only the false accusations that continue to change over time, that anyone defending me did not know the "truth" about me, including my own wife that she was just too close to me and needed to leave me.
Even yet, people try to convince others they just do not know the whole story about me, and I received written word someone could not know even yet what to believe, despite knowing how much evil that has had to be endured. I had to write back that I do not even know what the other side of the story was because it has changed so many times over the years. For someone whose first expressed testimony was a desire to be like "God's man Job" and who gave my all to prove that desire, if it had not been for my God proving Himself to me, I would have become as faithless as those who testify such of themselves in this forum.
Dennis ~ It definitely sounds like a "kangaroo court" from the description of what transpired! Honestly, just wondering why this worker kept his socks in his hat ~ just a little strange, to say the least? It sounds like something you would read out of one of Dr. Seuss's books, like "Cat in the Hat," who stored strange things within his large hat. For sure, that worker must have been one strange dude to carry socks in his hat?
|
|
|
Post by faune on Jan 28, 2014 11:59:33 GMT -5
Christianburg... It was a joke! from Ram. He thought I would jumped in both feet with his Dorthy's letter as historical fact. He made it up! a few yrs. back to make fun of William Irvine sister story. Nathan my friend, I take extreme exception to you declaring that the purpose of producing this letter was to make fun of William Irvine's sister's story. It was produced to provide "The Missing Link" that appears to have evaded us? A whole thread was created back in 2010 to examine the true facts of the document. Just face up to it. This letter is absolutely vital in proving the imaginary historical fact about Dorothy Irvine's testimony! People will reject the truth of the document purely for their own convenience! Ram ~ You sound like the man behind the curtain pulling the strings in "The Wizard of Oz" and getting everyone to believe him? We also have our very own Dorothy in this story, too!
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Jan 28, 2014 12:01:13 GMT -5
Christianburg... It was a joke! from Ram. He thought I would jumped in both feet with his Dorthy's letter as historical fact. He made it up! a few yrs. back to make fun of William Irvine sister story. Ram "thought you would jump in both feet" nothing--YOU DID! And a few others did also. You were so excited you could hardly contain yourself!
|
|
|
Post by faune on Jan 28, 2014 12:06:08 GMT -5
Oh, ye of little faith! The letter has proven to be genuine. It was, in fact, printed in the Impartial Reporter in the 31 September 1910 edition. Unfortunately a fire in the IR offices of 1 April 1918 destroyed all their archived copies of that edition. Some years later, however, a copy of the letter was discovered amoungst documents formerly belonging to early worker Joe Kerr (see 1905 workers list), and delivered to Queens University Belfast by Kerr’s great nephew, also named Joe Kerr. The original copy has remained in the archives of QUB, under the care of Professor Paul Ingyaleg, and access to it has been restricted to the students and faculty of the theology dept (confirm with Irvine Grey). Despite numerous attempts by Canadian overseer, B.S., to have the document destroyed, the original has remained unmolested and, in fact, a facsimile copy of the letter was recently delivered to the Archivum Secretum Apostolicum Vaticanum. The authenticity of the letter was promptly verified by Holy See archival staff and, two days later, presented to Pope Francis, who immediately released the following statement: "Engaging in dialogue does not mean renouncing our own ideas and traditions, but the pretense that they alone are valid and absolute."The only part of the story that I have problems accepting is that Vatican City records show the letter being delivered on 21 January 2014 by one, Valiant Thor.I just love these yarns on TMB! Glad to see you guys keep your sense of humor and are so gifted in the storytelling business! Also, how cool to hear of the Valiant Thor again, whose legend I felt was retired a while back?
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Jan 28, 2014 12:12:55 GMT -5
Ram "thought you would jump in both feet" nothing--YOU DID! And a few others did also. You were so excited you could hardly contain yourself! No, I did not.... I could smell it was fishy... William Irivne had no sister by the name of Dorthy! And I went after Ram for it.Nate: You have a serious case of selective memory and wishful thinking! You probably deleted your post where you showed how gullible you were, so I'm not going to waste me time trying to find them to prove it. I'm sure I'm not the only one on TMB who remembers how excited you were to find Dorothy's letter!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 12:45:41 GMT -5
Nathan my friend, I take extreme exception to you declaring that the purpose of producing this letter was to make fun of William Irvine's sister's story. It was produced to provide "The Missing Link" that appears to have evaded us? A whole thread was created back in 2010 to examine the true facts of the document. Just face up to it. This letter is absolutely vital in proving the imaginary historical fact about Dorothy Irvine's testimony!People will reject the truth of the document purely for their own convenience! Yea right. Let us be honest about this Dorthy's letter... Let me ask you again, Did you write this letter yourself? Didn't you admit it was you who wrote it two years after many threads to prove it was YOU. Come on, Ram let come clean about this. Remember, there are MANY old timer readers on here remember the Fun, you had with this Dorthy's letter which you made it up in 2010.Nathan, I stand by my emboldened statement above!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 12:59:24 GMT -5
Ram, I didn't see how that letter could possibly be true, yet some of it did dovetail with what Robt. Darling told me personally when I was accepted as a worker with honest integrity, whereas none of the other revisionist history assertions have in the least.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 13:42:03 GMT -5
Ram, I didn't see how that letter could possibly be true, yet some of it did dovetail with what Robt. Darling told me personally when I was accepted as a worker with honest integrity, whereas none of the other revisionist history assertions have in the least. Dennis, I apologise. It was a long time ago. Perhaps the imaginary overlapped with some reality in the composition?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 13:46:08 GMT -5
Nathan, I stand by my emboldened statement above! Thanks, for coming clean.. Ram wrote: "This letter is absolutely vital in proving the imaginary historical fact about Dorothy Irvine's testimony!"What do you mean "coming clean" Nathan? Do I ever deny anything? The proof is always in the pudding. You just have to look for it. First time round you didn't. I had to spell it out for you. Anyway, if we assume this letter to be genuine (just for the moment,) would it not be that "This letter is absolutely vital in proving the historical fact about William Irvine's sister?" Would it not be that vital missing link?"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 13:47:35 GMT -5
Well, friend, I did not know of any Irvine Sister named Dorothy, but there is simply lots I do not know. No need to apologize, what was that old pickup basket ball expression? "No harm, no foul." It did me no harm, and I need no apology!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 14:46:42 GMT -5
What do you mean "coming clean" Nathan? Do I ever deny anything? The proof is always in the pudding. You just have to look for it. First time round you didn't. I had to spell it out for you. Anyway, if we assume this letter to be genuine (just for the moment,) would it not be that "This letter is absolutely vital in proving the historical fact about William Irvine's sister?" Would it not be that vital missing link?" When I confronted that you were the author you denied and saying it wasn't you who wrote it.... After many posts of exposing you were the author of Dorthy's letter, you finally admitted it was a joke and you're having fun with us. You did apologized for all the commotion, which you had caused..... You made the mistake, before posting Dorthy's letter you had written made up stories before you posted Dorthy's letter.... so, Dorthy's letter sounded too fishy, and too good to be REAL.Nathan, please provide proof of this accusation. I never denied anything. For the purpose of effect I may have avoided a direct answer, but outright denial.........NO! I have a sneaking suspicion, that like some other tall tales, I provided obvious clues to those who were clever enough to spot them. That's more my style. Blatant denying? Definitely not? I might be a very wicked and cunning deceiver, but being an outright liar I am not!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 14:50:37 GMT -5
Nathan added to his last post at the time I was answering the shorter original.
Some of the readers pointed out the fake names on Dorthy's letter...
At long last we have some kind of support for the long-held tenuous claims of a link between William Irvine, his faith, his organisation and his sister's connection. May this put to rest the doubts of his accusers whom I hope will show a measure of circumspect as they consider this enlightening material.
That his sister Dorothy was a prolific writer to editors of religious periodicals is a well attested fact. Her valiant efforts to the editor of the Impartial Reporter newspaper, though going unheeded, should nevertheless be recognised. It says a lot for that journal that she did not appear to have received even the courtesy of a reply?
Anyway, I feel it is worth reprinting this effort for the benefit of those reading here. I have the permission of Mrs Molly Keddle, great granddaughter of Eilleen Dover, who knew Christina Box, close friend of Dorothy Irvine, a sister to the late William Irvine. Therefore, reprinting rights are not an issue.
And you have just proved my point about my use of some very obvious clues for the clever-minded to spot!
|
|
|
Post by blandie on Jan 28, 2014 14:59:54 GMT -5
The letter from WI's sister sounds like a fake letter. The expressions are too modern. Yes it is satirical and if you look closely you see the story was confirmed through Eilleen Dover (I-Leaned-Over) from Christina Box (Christ-in-a-box) The story about Irvine's sister is a tale cooked up early on to explain why if hearing the gospel in person through the workers is necessary for salvation then where did Wm. Irvine hear it? It is still an important and good question because if Irvine didn't need to hear the gospel from a worker then neither does anyone else. But the sister tale has not the slightest confirmation for it and Irvine certainly hasn't mentioned it in any of the letters or sermons I've read and IIRC there is a statement from one of his family that none of the family followed Irvine's new religion.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 15:00:58 GMT -5
Nathan, please provide proof of this accusation. I never denied anything. For the purpose of effect I may have avoided a direct answer, but outright denial.........NO! I have a sneaking suspicion, that like some other tall tales, I provided obvious clues to those who were clever enough to spot them. That's more my style. Blatant denying? Definitely not? I might be a very wicked and cunning deceiver, but being an outright liar I am not! You beat around the bush for a long time, by avoided a direct answer, Were you the author of Dorthy's letter. Didn't you finally apologize for all the commotion you caused?Nathan, if you want to maximise effect you have to squeeze the orange to get the last drop of juice out. Early disclosure defeats the purpose of it! Now, you must remember my spiritual background. Imagine the Ram approaching an elderly worker of many years in the work and having been informed by a religious outsider about the true beginnings of the sect I belonged to, I asked that worker (and not the only one) about same. What kind of answer do you think that I got? Here are options to consider: 1)Yes, this man is right. Out sect began early in the 20th century or thereabouts! 2)This man is telling lies. This way goes all the way back to the shores of Galilee. We have no earthly founder! 3) I don't know? I must ask this man how he knows this. Can you tell me how to contact him? Which of the above options do you think the worker used? Here is a clue. This worker knew about the true beginnings. It could not have been otherwise due to age. Which one was used to maximise the ongoing deception? In all my dealings on this board, with wind-ups and p--- taking, I have never used deception to that level.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 15:09:33 GMT -5
Nathan added to his last post at the time I was answering the shorter original. Some of the readers pointed out the fake names on Dorthy's letter... At long last we have some kind of support for the long-held tenuous claims of a link between William Irvine, his faith, his organisation and his sister's connection. May this put to rest the doubts of his accusers whom I hope will show a measure of circumspect as they consider this enlightening material.
That his sister Dorothy was a prolific writer to editors of religious periodicals is a well attested fact. Her valiant efforts to the editor of the Impartial Reporter newspaper, though going unheeded, should nevertheless be recognised. It says a lot for that journal that she did not appear to have received even the courtesy of a reply?
Anyway, I feel it is worth reprinting this effort for the benefit of those reading here. I have the permission of Mrs Molly Keddle, great granddaughter of Eilleen Dover, who knew Christina Box, close friend of Dorothy Irvine, a sister to the late William Irvine. Therefore, reprinting rights are not an issue.And you have just proved my point about my use of some very obvious clues for the clever-minded to spot! The readers on the Message board, pointed out that Dorthy's was a FAKE or made up letter by You! and William Irvine had NO sister named, Dorthy. When we asked you about these things you didn't answer.... And due to pressure... finally, you admitted it was just a JOKE, and you were having fun with us.Now we are moving towards the truth. You originally stated "When I confronted that you were the author you denied and saying it wasn't you who wrote it." Do you now retract that as a false statement? I will go further and state that what you stated is absolutely false! You are getting as bad as me! Well....perhaps not quite? But just be careful..okay? I'm not sure that I didn't answer? I would have to check back on that one. That's not really my style either. However, it might have been one of these occasions where some posts become lost through inundation?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 15:18:10 GMT -5
Yes it is satirical and if you look closely you see the story was confirmed through Eilleen Dover (I-Leaned-Over) from Christina Box (Christ-in-a-box) The story about Irvine's sister is a tale cooked up early on to explain why if hearing the gospel in person through the workers is necessary for salvation then where did Wm. Irvine hear it? It is still an important and good question because if Irvine didn't need to hear the gospel from a worker then neither does anyone else. But the sister tale has not the slightest confirmation for it and Irvine certainly hasn't mentioned it in any of the letters or sermons I've read and IIRC there is a statement from one of his family that none of the family followed Irvine's new religion. Dorthy's letter was written to discredit Robert Darling's William Irvine sister story! to make it sounds like a fairy story. You KNEW exactly what you were doing, Ram.... making fun, and trying to cast doubts into people mind about William Irvine sister story.No Nathan, the supposed story about William Irvine's sister is at best a very tenuous one. So thin it could not support any weight. You are the only one who saw any strength in it. It did not need to be discredited or have fun poked at it. Remember it was me who years ago provided you with some info about George Gittens etc! Can't remember the details though. It was a long time ago. The Ram has a long history of being a wind-up merchant! No offence is meant. That doesn't mean that it isn't sometimes taken though? In your own way you come up with some stories, some of which are equal at least to my ones, which you present as fact.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 15:21:08 GMT -5
You are not a liar, ram... but your hands got caught in the cookies jar... and you were trying to get your hands out of it but it was too tight to get it out... so you stammering, stuttering, find your way out of the jam. Nathan, please re-examine the Dorothy Irvine letter. Even from some of the very obvious clues that you have quoted, do you really think that there was any real intention to deceive there, or was it merely intended as a joke or a laugh? I mean some of the tell tale details stand out a mile!
|
|
|
Post by blandie on Jan 28, 2014 15:32:15 GMT -5
Nathan, please re-examine the Dorothy Irvine letter. Even from some of the very obvious clues that you have quoted, do you really think that there was any real intention to deceive there, or was it merely intended as a joke or a laugh? I mean some of the tell tale details stand out a mile! I thot it was funny but I can see why someone might take the bait. You provided quite a few 'facts' that a person reading had better check out before swallowing the article and it didn't take long to find that it wasn't real. I think maybe that should be standard procedure for all of these unverified stories.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jan 28, 2014 16:09:41 GMT -5
Natan,
It would best to just embrace the history.
Why do you continue to hold on to these weak hopes that are based on he said...she said...and nothing more. Even the if the he said, she said were true, they would still not disprove all the verifiable research that has been done.
Embrace it Nathan....its OK......I have. I'm still professing. My foundation is Christ. That foundation goes back to the shores of Galalee. How people have gotten together to fellowship is not as important so long as they are built on the true foundation.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 16:17:55 GMT -5
Nathan, please re-examine the Dorothy Irvine letter. Even from some of the very obvious clues that you have quoted, do you really think that there was any real intention to deceive there, or was it merely intended as a joke or a laugh? I mean some of the tell tale details stand out a mile! I thot it was funny but I can see why someone might take the bait. You provided quite a few 'facts' that a person reading had better check out before swallowing the article and it didn't take long to find that it wasn't real. I think maybe that should be standard procedure for all of these unverified stories. My only concern with the letter is that I think at least one 'true-blue' all-the-way-back friends in CA maybe have been told about this letter by someone who didn't know it was a joke and now believes this letter exists. I'm not positive that this is the letter the person referred to, but if it was, then that would be a negative outcome to a simple joke.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 16:50:56 GMT -5
I thot it was funny but I can see why someone might take the bait. You provided quite a few 'facts' that a person reading had better check out before swallowing the article and it didn't take long to find that it wasn't real. I think maybe that should be standard procedure for all of these unverified stories. My only concern with the letter is that I think at least one 'true-blue' all-the-way-back friends in CA maybe have been told about this letter by someone who didn't know it was a joke and now believes this letter exists. I'm not positive that this is the letter the person referred to, but if it was, then that would be a negative outcome to a simple joke. That has occurred to me too, although I haven't run into yet. I expect I will be hearing it in a convention sermon at some point.
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Jan 28, 2014 17:05:34 GMT -5
How about because WmI didnt hear it from his sister... It has been said that she had an influence on him spiritually...2 of his sisters died early deaths. Margaret died in 1886 (age 25) and Elizabeth (age 15) in 1887. Click Here to view Irvine Family TreeThat doesnt mean his sister found a way/method of worship that started in Galilee and showed it to her brother and WmI accepted it and began to walk in it and became a follower of it--instead he started/founded a completely separate movement. Click Here to read variations of the The Sister StoryIn about 1967 or 1968, Robert Darling spoke at the Convention held at Silverdale, British Columbia, Canada.. His text was Daniel 2: 34-35, and 45, particularly about "the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands," which "filled the whole earth." He then announced that the stone was William Irvine's sister who became very ill and died. According to Robert, she supposedly had a dream which she related to William, which deeply stirred him and in some manner supposedly influenced him religiously from that time on. Robert Darling's main point was that we should be crediting Wm's sister who was taken in death by God before William Irvine even began preaching--rather than credit William Irvine with starting this fellowship; and thus, avoid any accusation that this fellowship is man-made. William's sister was, therefore, "the stone made without hands." A few weeks later in a private conversation, Robert Darling affirmed to Paul Abenroth that William Irvine was the first worker, and he did not claim or believe that the friends and workers existed before Wm Irvine, whom he termed "the firstfruits of our faith" in our day.
Professor Oliver Wm. Rolfe who was well acquainted with Robert Darling wrote: "I have previously heard the account...attributed to Robert Darling about the beginnings of the church. I have no idea whether or not it is true, but I do know what Robert told me personally. I met Robert in 1958 at the Albuquerque convention; I then travelled with him to the three Mexican conventions. That is, he asked me to drive him in my car. I saw him every day for a period of weeks; he rode with me back to the Midwest where I was living at the time. We became good friends and corresponded regularly until his death in 1970. In 1967, he came to California, where I was then living, and I met him at the Gilroy conventions. He stayed with me between the two conventions, and we had great fun sight-seeing in the Bay Area. On this latter occasion I asked him about the beginnings of the church; he told me that it was started in Ireland by one man (whom he did not name, but I assumed to be William Irvine) after his sister had frozen to death because their parents had shut her out of the house. There was no mention at all of Switzerland. In fact, in all my discussions with him there was never the slightest implication that the church dated historically from an earlier time. He seemed to be somewhat distressed that so many people seemed to believe this. [by Oliver William Rolfe, Ph.D., Stanford University, 1967, Professor Emeritus (Modern and Classical Languages and Literatures) University of Montana, Missoula, Montana] NOTE: Wm Irvine's sister Margaret Irvine probably died of a chronic lung infection, most likely tuberculosis. The Cause of Death given for Margaret Irvine in the public records was: "Phthisis, 3 months, cert. by John Lind Surgeon, Kilsyth." Another sister of Wm Irvine, Elizabeth Irvine, died June 15, 1887, and her Cause of Death was listed as Periostitis, which is an inflammation of the lining of the bone.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 17:52:56 GMT -5
In addition, Robert Darling flat out told me that William Irvine was the first modern day "Apostle" and did so less than 24 hours after preaching what he did. Paul visited with him later, unknowing Robert had also visited with me. Personally, I believe he was very interested in my knowing what he knew because of my very soon leaving the USA to go preach 2&2 doctrine in other countries.
From his sermon, I felt he had alluded to Irvine's sister, not naming her outright nor identifying her beliefs except to say that empty place at that table brought the change in William Irvine, which he also told me in that following visit. If there are notes somewhere of that sermon, I would much like to read them to confirm my memory of it. I believe I am the only one in this forum who was there and heard it with my own ears... recording it in my own memory!
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Jan 28, 2014 18:14:26 GMT -5
RE: Conv notes for 1967 or 1968 Silverdale BC Canada...
I would like the notes also--and for the record, I dont have them, nor does Truth Archive have them posted. I WISH!
Dennis, would you consider writing a stand along statement of your experience and memories that can be quoted exactly on a website? Can you pinpoint the year exactly?
CK
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 19:01:18 GMT -5
I thot it was funny but I can see why someone might take the bait. You provided quite a few 'facts' that a person reading had better check out before swallowing the article and it didn't take long to find that it wasn't real. I think maybe that should be standard procedure for all of these unverified stories. My only concern with the letter is that I think at least one 'true-blue' all-the-way-back friends in CA maybe have been told about this letter by someone who didn't know it was a joke and now believes this letter exists. I'm not positive that this is the letter the person referred to, but if it was, then that would be a negative outcome to a simple joke.[/font][/b] Actually if anyone cares to, they can go back and check the the original posting on The Missing Link thread (2010) they will see clear warnings at the beginning and end of the post warning people about the material being a joke. One was inserted by myself and the other by Admin. My own warning was added either at the time I posted it, or shortly thereafter. I did not copy these warnings over when I transferred the post to this thread. However that does not excuse me for posting similar material in the past which surprised even myself at how some swallowed the bait despite some obvious clues. I don't deny it. My sanity relies on my insanity! I have to live with it. Unfortunately you do too! However, spare a thought for me. You can very easily get away from it, but I have to live with it 24/7!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2014 11:33:26 GMT -5
RE: Conv notes for 1967 or 1968 Silverdale BC Canada... I would like the notes also--and for the record, I dont have them, nor does Truth Archive have them posted. I WISH! Dennis, would you consider writing a stand along statement of your experience and memories that can be quoted exactly on a website? Can you pinpoint the year exactly?
CK From the best of my recollection I am recording this for posterity: In the late 60's the SW British Columbia convention was held at a location known as "Silverdale." In early August, 1969* a worker from South America, named Robert Darling (whom I took to be in his mid to late eighties) was a guest speaker there. As a 27 year old young worker headed abroad to be a worker far from my homeland, I was also invited to attend that convention. One of the most outstanding, and puzzling things for me from that convention was part of a sermon given by Robert Darling.
During that sermon, he related how a man's sister's (alluding to William Irvine) death and subsequent empty place setting at the home table, caused that man who as I recall he referred to as "the first apostle of our time," to repent (supposedly turning from his previously immoral lifestyle to begin "working for the Lord.") He raised the question, "is this not the stone carved out of the mountain without hands?" a quotation from the old Testament. It was rather confusing to me, so my thoughts as a listener then began to wander as I wondered regarding the implied meaning. It had been my experience that many older workers often spoke in such a manner as to leave people wondering about what they had spoken.
Almost immediately afterward, I went to the man, asked if we could share a walk so I could ask him some questions about what he had spoken. He agreed quite willingly. My questions were about the timing of the event to which he referred saying, "I have heard tell of William Irvine, but know little to nothing about him." So, I asked if that reference to the man's sister was what led him (William Irvine who Robert Darling thought of as the first apostle of our time and day) to become "one of us?"
The answer was (again, to the best of my memory from nearly 45 years ago) "no, not directly. It led him to become one of the Faith Mission workers. It was only later that he and several others began preaching along going by faith only lines." Only much later did I discover that Paul Abenroth, another worker and close friend of mine who was also there, found occasion several weeks afterward to question Robert Darling about what he had said, and I believe Paul's record of that conversation is available also.
Another puzzling thing he spoke at that convention was about the wife of some preacher who he had witnessed tugging constantly at her skirt to try to get it to cover her knees as she sat in public somewhere. It did not fit with the rest of his sermon, and it made no sense to me that he had included it in that sermon, except to ridicule that preacher and wife. I lacked the courage at that time to question why he had done so and meant by it.
* I remember this date August 1969 well because I had just purchased a ticket on the Moore MacCormick STAR's maiden voyage from Newark NJ to Gothenburg, Sweden. I did so from money given me by Everett Wilcox who had gotten them from an elderly Swedish woman who had just died wanting the left over $430.00 to be used to send a worker to her native country to preach, and that just happened to be me and that was the very cost of that ticket. The trip home I had to borrow to pay for myself, as I received nothing at all to begin life over with. That debt was forgiven me as part of my wedding present the year after flying home to the USA.
Signed: Dennis Jacobsen (age 70 years 10 months) on TMB
Date: 1/29/2014
I give my permission for my statement above to be quoted and copied.
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Jan 29, 2014 13:30:25 GMT -5
You mean page 535 as he concludes the book that 'in our efforts to trace the continuity of primitive Christian ideals over the centuries, no unbroken successions or continuous activities of a particular identifiable group been documented. Nevertheless, no century appears to have been without some witness to these ideals.' (Page 535 Conclusion) He finally ends the book on page 542 referring to the contemporary (Irish) movement, and after speaking of how 'these assemblies of Christians' may be threatened by "conservative evangelical Protest ideology," his last two sentences are: 'Will the spirit of the primitive church and concepts and practices of evangelical poverty, apostolic preaching, lay participation and charitable community be dissipated once again? Will the apostles' doctrine and fellowship survive, or need to be restored again in the twenty-first century?' I left Dr. J book at work... I will bring it home tomorrow and let you know the page.Nate: Did you bring the book home? What page? If I missed it, just give me a link to your post...tnx. CK
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Jan 29, 2014 13:42:45 GMT -5
Yes it is...and now I'll be adding to that list Dennis statement and christianburg's comments. They are all statements made in person by Rob Darling (on 1905 workers List) to various individuals about Wm Irvine's sister. Only one account (Geo. Gittins) mentions a lot of details that do not mesh with other statements by Rob Darling. From TTT: GEORGE GITTINS' ACCOUNT OF THE EARLY DAYS... Following are some notes taken at a gathering of some friends (name of note-taker is unknown), which means this is a second-hand story. The speaker was George Gittins, a brother worker now laboring in Canada, who related to his audience events he recalled which Robert Darling had narrated to him. Since Rob Darling is shown on the 1905 Workers' List as entering the work in 1905, (seven years after the group started), he was not one of Irvine's "early" or original followers. "What George Gittins told us about the early days of the Truth" "William Irvine's sister went from Scotland to Ireland to work in someone's home. When Sunday came, she noticed there were chairs set around the living room, and she asked about it. The people of the home said they had a worship service in their home each Sunday morning, and a few others came also. She asked how they got started doing this, and she was told that their ancestors heard homeless preachers in Switzerland. (Another Gittins' Account said they heard the preachers somewhere in the Alps and they embraced the faith and a church meeting was started in their home by these homeless preachers. When the folks had to leave that area due to persecution, they came to Ireland and continued the service in their home.)
(Still another Gittins' Account said Rob Darling refused to give out "the names of the folks, as this was their request and they wanted no honour...Wm Irvine did hear the testimony of the friends who had come from near Switzerland--Armenia I think--they had heard the truth there and moved to Ireland. The workers they heard and friends were scattered because of the persecution and they lost contact. But maintained the Sunday Mtg in their home, which the workers establised ere they had to flee. I understand he [Wm Irvine] was baptized also by the elder.") "There were no workers in Ireland or Scotland at this time. Later his sister returned to Scotland and told her brother, William Irvine, who was also a dissatisfied Plymouth Brethren (Note: There is no record of Irvine ever being a Plymouth Brethren. Another Gittins' Account said Irvine was dissatisfied with the Faith Mission). His sister had embraced the faith while in Ireland, and when she told William about it, he also embraced it and told his friends who did likewise. (Another Account by Gittins said: "William was called by the Spirit of God inside him to go into the Harvest Field, as Jesus taught his disciples, leaving all and going by faith. Some heard William preach and were converted to go likewise.")"William's sister had been told about the lifestyle of some who had been homeless preachers in Switzerland. When William heard of this, he recognized it as scriptural, and he and others went forth in like manner. (Another Gittins Account said: "He came to visit these folks that his sister had met and on hearing their testimony recognized it was scriptural and was also convicted it was God's true way.") His sister didn't go into the work, but she remained true to the Lord. (Another Account by Gittins said that she: "embraced this Faith, as she was convicted it was the true way of God.") Later, there was contact with the family in Ireland who had introduced this faith to William's sister. "This is what Robert Darling told George Gittins. Garrett Hughes told George that his parents (G. Hughes parents were Fred and Mary Ann Gill Hughes) who professed through William Irvine had mentioned something about Switzerland in connection with the 'Early Days' in Scotland. Garrett said that Robert Darling had been there in the 'Early Days,' and so whatever he said was true. "George read in some history books of an 'itinerant preacher group' that fled to Armenia during the persecution in Europe and later to Switzerland (the Alps)". (Another Gittins' Account said "Later I [George] talked to Mr. Holland* who was almost 100 yrs old, and his parents had told him much the same as Robert had told me.") END of GITTINS ACCOUNT *"Mr. Holland" could be Dora Holland's brother, Harry Holland, who was also a worker; or possibly, it was another brother of Dora.
The Gittins Account contains details no other known account has. In fact, the other records from the period in question appear to contradict his story. There is no record of Wm Irvine ever giving out this story. To the contrary, it appears to have become a point of pride with him that he was the "Father" of the whole "Testimony" group and that "without Irvine there would be no Testimony." (Friends and workers group). Furthermore, records vary of what Robert Darling and George Gittins reportedly said. Why is George the only one who has told this legend? Wouldn't this be a well-known story among the friends at the time? Why did no one make any effort to record that part of their history? If all of those workers and friends were scattered, why do we not hear of efforts of those in Ireland attempting to trace the others, in order to continue their fellowship with them? Could they ALL have been killed except for this mystery family that came to Ireland? Even if we found historical documentation to confirm this story, it STILL would not "prove" that this was the "Remnant" from the Apostles' time, which is probably impossible to prove historically. Many groups have tried to, including the Plymouth Brethren and the Baptists. The Gittins account is lacking many vital pieces of information. Which sister of Wm Irvine? Whose home? Where was this home? When was contact made later with the Irish family who introduced this faith to William's sister? What was the outcome? Did the ministers and the meeting elders merge together? What was the name of any of the homeless preachers in Switzerland? What were the names of Irvine's friends who embraced the faith after he told them about it? Who were the friends of Wm Irvine who went out likewise? When did all this take place? What George read may or may not have any bearing on the history of the group. What "persecution in Europe"? What's the connection of European persecutions in a history book to the beginning of Wm Irvine's ministry? The vague reference to the presence of groups having no name and to some itinerant ministers is of no documentary value. It is speculation. The Spanish Inquisition was chiefly concerned with the expulsion of Jews and Moslems and lasted for around 350 years. What group fled from Spain to Armenia, or from Armenia to Switzerland? From the late Dark Ages through to modern times, Armenia has been far removed both politically (being surrounded and dominated by Islamic territories) and geographically from Western Europe. It is hard to imagine any such flow to and from this distant land during this time. Travel and communication to Armenia through hostile territories existing during this period seems far fetched at best. George may have read some about the Hammidian Masssacres (1894-1896) in Armenia and may have connected some of those accounts in his mind. Who were the first workers who pioneered the gospel to Switzerland and when was that? Who were the first people in Switzerland to profess and when was that? The FIRST four workers to go to Switzerland were James Jardine, Otto Schmidt, Penny Barton and Maggie Johnston. They went there in 1913 and the men had moved on to Germany in February, 1914. Within a year, the sister workers returned to Crocknacrieve where the Impartial Reporter mentions Miss Barton speaking about her experiences in Switzerland the previous year. Did any of these pioneering workers connect with any friends/workers who were located in Switzerland? Or had they all died out? When the next batch of workers went to Switzerland after World War I, there were no professing people there. Reportedly, Emma Bovy was the first to profess, sometime after 1922. Read about when the first workers went to Switzerland. When George Gittins was asked these questions by Dale Knott, in a letter dated May 17, 1992, enclosing a copy of the above Gittins account, he replied: "Dale...Yours was most interesting and was good to hear. Would be nice to meet you sometime and talk over some of the things you asked in your letter. Robt. Darling gave me a firsthand account and knew personally the folks he talked about. Ones whom Wm. Irvine met first. In talking to others since, I heard of workers talking to some workers from Canada here that witnessed the baptism of Wm. in truth. Which was most interesting. If I were talking to you could go into more detail of information I have. We are thankful that, being as we have the "fruit," we don't need to trace the seed of the fruit back to Adam and original creation. Jesus said, "By their fruits you shall know them." Wonderful to know like Peter said that we have not followed cunningly devised fables. But have tasted for ourselves of His majesty. With greetings sincere in Christ, [ Signed:] Geo. Gittins" DORA HOLLAND is generally credited with being the very FIRST person to profess in Ireland--NOT the sister of Wm. Irvine. Some reports say that she professed in 1896, when she was 20 years old through Wm. Irvine (who was preaching with the Faith Mission at that time.) Some have attempted to prove that the Go-Preacher fellowship began before 1897, and she is the "proof" they use, as she reportedly professed in 1896. However, some other sources state that she also professed in 1895 and 1897. The Author believes the date was actually in 1897, as both the Faith Mission and John Long's Journal report that Wm Irvine had a mission in Kilrush in February, 1897, where Dora Holland was working. Click Here for more information about Dora. From an extract of a letter written in 1966 by her brother, Harry Holland: "So many of our fellow workers have gone, yet I am still living. I will be 89 years old on February 6th. My sister, Dora, was 90 on January 1st. She was the FIRST PERSON TO PROFESS in Ireland, but that was before the Gills and the Carrolls decided and before George Walker decided. That was some years before I left Ireland, and I left in 1899." [Harry Holland, 1966] Harry Holland may be from the same Holland family that George Gittins refers to above. www.tellingthetruth.info/history_articles/hearfrom.php#SISTER
|
|