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Post by Mary on Jan 29, 2014 13:56:12 GMT -5
Dennis and Paul spoke to Robert darling personally, Christianburg's is just hearsay.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 29, 2014 14:11:38 GMT -5
For the record, Nate is again guilty of sloppy reporting... In red below are omissions and additions to a document Nate "quoted" from TTT's Gittins Account. Nate wrote: Posted on Cherie Kropp's TTT Website 1/24/2000. "What George Gittins told the workers and the friends about the early days of the truth." William Irvine's sister went from Scotland to Ireland to work in someone's home. When Sunday came, she noticed there were chairs set around the living room, and she asked about it. The people of the home said they had a worship service in their home each Sunday morning and a few others came also. She asked how they got started doing this, and she was told their Ancestors heard homeless preachers in Switzerland. There were no workers in Ireland or Scotland at this time . Later his sister returned to Scotland and told her brother, William Irvine, who was dissatisfied with the Church--shoudl be: also a dissatisfied Plymouth Brethren. His sister had embraced the faith while in Ireland, and when she told William about it, he also embraced it, and told his friends and converts--added, who did likewise. William Irvine's sister had been told about the lifestyle of some who had been homeless preachers in Switzerland, and when he (shd be William) heard of this, he recognized it as scriptural, and he and others went forth in like manner; Nate changed this to: and he told others John Long, John Kelly, Harry M' Neary, J. Burns, May Carroll, Adam Hutchinson, George Walker, Eddie Cooney, etc.---------the red text was added by Nate.
Nor did Nate quote the last 3 paragraphs:
His sister didn't go into the work, but she remained true to the Lord. Later, there was contact with the family in Ireland who had introduced this faith to William's sister.
"This is what Robert Darling told George Gittins. Garrett Hughes told George that his parents who professed through William Irvine had mentioned something about Switzerland in connection with the 'early days' in Scotland. Garrett said that Robert Darling had been there in the 'early days,' and so whatever he said was true.
"George read in some history books of an 'itinerant preacher group' that fled to Armenia during the persecution in Europe and later to Switzerland (the Alps)".
Below is a scanned copy of the first account I ever received by Gittins.
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Post by christiansburg on Jan 29, 2014 16:19:27 GMT -5
Dennis and Paul spoke to Robert darling personally, Christianburg's is just hearsay. Mary, I do understand the meaning of heresay. Dennis and Paul may have spoken to Robert D. I spoke with Charlie Hughes and George Walker who were personal witnesses of William and the events surrounding his life. So that makes my statements just as credible as Dennis' and Paul's
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 29, 2014 19:16:08 GMT -5
Dennis and Paul spoke to Robert darling personally, Christianburg's is just hearsay. Mary, I do understand the meaning of heresay. Dennis and Paul may have spoken to Robert D. I spoke with Charlie Hughes and George Walker who were personal witnesses of William and the events surrounding his life. So that makes my statements just as credible as Dennis' and Paul's I agree, christiansburg. All three of you were workers at the time you heard details about WmI's sister. And all three of you heard them from a worker on the 1905 Workers List. And George Walker was in WmI's inner circle whereas Robert Darling was not...and came to America with WmI in 1902.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 29, 2014 20:39:08 GMT -5
Nate: posted a letter by RGR above: professing.proboards.com/post/570183/thread From RGR in Canada, Ontario. Dec, 2005 Hi Nathan,Nate: Who is RGR ?? Is it author of "The Gate Seldom Found" (Raymond G. Reid from Guelph, Ontario, Canada)?
I have a copy of RGR's letter To Whom it May Concern dated Nov. 2005, and it contains things your version leaves out.
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Post by Persona non grata on Jan 30, 2014 4:47:32 GMT -5
Oh, ye of little faith! The letter has proven to be genuine. It was, in fact, printed in the Impartial Reporter in the 31 September 1910 edition. Unfortunately a fire in the IR offices of 1 April 1918 destroyed all their archived copies of that edition. Some years later, however, a copy of the letter was discovered amoungst documents formerly belonging to early worker Joe Kerr (see 1905 workers list), and delivered to Queens University Belfast by Kerr’s great nephew, also named Joe Kerr. The original copy has remained in the archives of QUB, under the care of Professor Paul Ingyaleg, and access to it has been restricted to the students and faculty of the theology dept (confirm with Irvine Grey). Despite numerous attempts by Canadian overseer, B.S., to have the document destroyed, the original has remained unmolested and, in fact, a facsimile copy of the letter was recently delivered to the Archivum Secretum Apostolicum Vaticanum. The authenticity of the letter was promptly verified by Holy See archival staff and, two days later, presented to Pope Francis, who immediately released the following statement: "Engaging in dialogue does not mean renouncing our own ideas and traditions, but the pretense that they alone are valid and absolute."The only part of the story that I have problems accepting is that Vatican City records show the letter being delivered on 21 January 2014 by one, Valient Thor. hee hee. too funny. are you sure about all this? I'm pretty sure. The dates seem credible, nothing suspicious there, and with such respected luminaries as Joe Kerr (who has his own Wikipedia page ), Paul Ingyaleg, and B.S., whoever would have the slightest reason to doubt?
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Post by Persona non grata on Jan 30, 2014 4:56:35 GMT -5
No, I did not.... I could smell it was fishy... William Irivne had no sister by the name of Dorthy! And I went after Ram for it. Nate: You have a serious case of selective memory and wishful thinking! You probably deleted your post where you showed how gullible you were, so I'm not going to waste me time trying to find them to prove it. I'm sure I'm not the only one on TMB who remembers how excited you were to find Dorothy's letter! It would require deletion of far more than one post, to hide Nathan's gullibility, Cherie. But then TMB readers would miss out on a huge amount of entertainment involving shape shifters, aliens, Valient Thor...
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Post by fixit on Jan 30, 2014 4:58:27 GMT -5
hee hee. too funny. are you sure about all this? I'm pretty sure. The dates seem credible, nothing suspicious there, and with such respected luminaries as Joe Kerr (who has his own Wikipedia page), Paul Ingyaleg, and B.S., whoever would have the slightest reason to doubt? Is it definitely BS?
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Post by Persona non grata on Jan 30, 2014 5:03:15 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure. The dates seem credible, nothing suspicious there, and with such respected luminaries as Joe Kerr (who has his own Wikipedia page), Paul Ingyaleg, and B.S., whoever would have the slightest reason to doubt? Is it definitely BS? Appropriately.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 30, 2014 10:08:35 GMT -5
Nate: posted a letter by RGR above: professing.proboards.com/post/570183/thread From RGR in Canada, Ontario. Dec, 2005 Hi Nathan,Nate: Who is RGR ?? Is it author of "The Gate Seldom Found" (Raymond G. Reid from Guelph, Ontario, Canada)?
I have a copy of RGR's letter To Whom it May Concern dated Nov. 2005, and it contains things your version leaves out.
Hi Cherie, I don't know who RGR is... He could be, Raymond G. Reid as you suggested. He sent me his experience/meeting with George Gittens story to my email address and we communicated with each others a few times. He gave me the permission to share it with others.
I wrote to Raymond Reid in the past telling him, that I heard many people have mentioned good things about his book, "The Gate Seldom Found". I told him a little bit of my background... then I received RGR post in my email address in Dec, 2005. Nate: The copy someone sent me starts with this paragraph...does your RGR version also start with it?To Whom it may Concern Last week we had ministers/workers, George Gittins and Tom Young staying with us for a few days. Both are in their 70s. Although a bit hard of hearing, George likes to visit and talk about the old days. George was born in the US, but moved to Canada when he was eleven. He professed in Ontario and has been in the ministry in the provinces of Ontario, Quebec, BC, Manitoba and Alberta in Canada, and in the states of Michigan, Nebraska, Colorado and Utah in the US (and perhaps other states as well). He's currently in the ministry in Manitoba where he has a number of relatives. Some of them are the same as mine--distantly. During one conversation last week George told us the following story:
It also contains this paragraph--does your version have this paragraph in it? For the most part, Tom Young was not in our conversations as he was busy getting ready to go to Alberta for Special Meetings later in the week. However, because I was speaking fairly loudly so George could hear, Tom was, no doubt, generally aware of our discussions. One day over lunch Tom was prompted to tell us about the time some years back that he had the privilege of visiting the old Crocknacrieve convention grounds in Ireland (first convention in 1904) which apparently is still standing and being lived in but not used for convention. As an aside, Tom told us that the Irish friend who took him there, a fellow by the name of Johnson, also gave him a long letter to read that a fellow had written for his son telling about the early days of our faith. I immediately asked whether the writer's name was Pattison, by any chance?" Tom thought for a minute and then said, "Yes, I kind of think that was his name". (I had given George the John Pattison account to read a couple of days earlier. He had not seen it before. When he gave it back to me the following morning, I asked what he thought of it. He said it was interesting and it certainly seemed to square with what he had heard over the years--as well as the story Robert Darling had told him. He also said that William Irvine and his sister hearing the gospel and professing through an elder was certainly scriptural. And referred to Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts.)
Does your version also have a paragraph 2nd from the end that starts with "Unrelated to the above, Judy and I spent three weeks in Germany...?"
My version ends with: RGR Winnipeg, Canada November, 2005
I have something written by Raymond Reid in which he states that he has lived all his life in Guelph, Ontario...and his wife's name was Gretchen...(not Judy!). So I dont know that RGR is Raymond Reid at this time. Too many things don't line up perfectly for me to be able to make that determination.
George Gittins labored in Colorado, in Canada in B.C., Ontario and Manitoba. The 2010-ll Workers List shows him in a care facility in Portage la Prairie, MB
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 30, 2014 10:10:00 GMT -5
The following was posted on TMB May 26, 2007:
Correspondence Relating to the History of the Founding of a Christian Church
The following is an account of correspondence over the past several months (November 2006 to May 2007) between an independent researcher and three persons involved with the history of the non-denominational church known officially in the United States of America as "Christian Conventions." This information is posted at the request of researcher Cherie Kropp, the editor of the website entitled "Telling The Truth" (TTT).
The three persons involved are George Gittins, an older brother missionary worker in Manitoba, Canada (recently retired); Cornelius Jaenen, a retired History Professor in Ontario, Canada, and Oliver William (Wil) Rolfe, a retired Modern and Classical Languages and Literatures Professor who presently resides in Texas.
The subject of this correspondence is the missionary Robert Darling, who joined the ministry of the aforesaid church in Ireland in the year 1905 and later laboured in the United States. During his preaching career, Robert made several statements regarding the events concerning the founding of the church in Ireland circa 1899. George Gittins later related some of these statements; Oliver Rolfe also knew Robert Darling personally and has related what he remembers Robert Darling saying. Cornelius Jaenen did not know Robert Darling personally but has done a significant amount of research into the foundation of the present church.
E-mail from George Gittins in response to a request for more details regarding "what Robert Darling told him about William Irvine's conversion".
From: George Gittins Received: 11/15/06 04:59 PM Subject: RE: early days of the work
dear _____---got yours with the questions about william irvine. . The older worker that told me the account of his (william irvines) conversion is dead now. He knew the folks personally william met. It was robert darling that told me the account. So i got it first hand from him. He said he wouldnt give me the names of the folks as this was there request and they wanted no honour. Which i appreciate.and can understand. It could have been about 1897 --not sure-- that is close.. Robert darling told me william did hear the testamony of the friends who had come from near switzerland --armenia i think--they had heard the truth there and moved to ireland. The workers they heard and friends were scattered because of the persecution and they lost contact. But maintained the sunday mtg in there home.which the workers established ere they had to flee. -i undestand he was baptized also by the elder
we are thankful that we have the fruit of truth and dont need history, what we have experienced leaves us with no question that this is the truth of god and we are grateful to god in ever revealing it to us and giving us a part in such a wonderful family which we are enjoying now and have the promise of being partakers for all eternity with our redeemer and all of gods children as we keep our lives in his hand .
jesus said in matthew 24 verse 34 "this generation shall not pass till all these things be fullfilled" another version says " the seed of the born again life shall not pass away till all be fullfilled"
we are in winnipeg now. Meet with the staff in a few days and divide for special mtgs. Trust the lord will be mercifull in granting bread. Glad it is our need that appeals to him was this way in the beginning and all along the way. As jesus said "blessed are they which hunger and thirst for righteousness for they shall be filled" so we go on that promise
YOUR BROTHER IN CHRIST GEORGE GITTINS
This account raised many questions:
who were these "mystery" people? were they from Armenia or Switzerland? or from Armenia through Switzerland? were they Armenian or Swiss? or British? or, did they ever really exist?
Another statement George had made in the past (recorded on the website "Telling The Truth") mentioned that he had read a book about persecutions in Armenia and thought that some of the "friends" had come to Ireland from there as a consequence. The researcher looked further into this "Armenian connection," and found that there WERE persecutions of Armenian Christians by the Turks at the time in question, especially in the years 1894-1896. These are called the Hammidian Massacres. Many thousands of Armenian Christians were disposessed of jobs and properties and also many were slaughtered. There was a book written about the ordeal by the Reverend Edwin Munsell Bliss, entitled "Turkey and the Armenian Atrocities." It is available online at armeniahouse.org. The researcher does not know whether or not this is the book which George Gittins had read. There were several missionary organizations at work in Armenia in the 19th century. The most prominent of these was the American Board. Some references in Bliss' book mention some Christians who were meeting in homes (perhaps either as a point of doctrine or where numbers were small). It is also noteworthy that the Faith Mission established an "Armenian Fund" around this time. There were Armenian refugees at this time (as there had been in years previous and has been in years since) who fled the country and migrated to many other countries.
George was asked many times for further clarification, elaboration, and for more details but more was never given. Two letters were written "to the Friends in Ireland" (to the Dublin address) - one in January and one in February, 2007, with a request for any documentation that might yet exist that could possibly confirm George's account. NO REPLY was ever received to either of these requests.
Some of the inconsistencies of George's account when compared with historical documents of the time in question (circa 1895-1905):
1. George's testimony is singular. 2. Much else that was written at or about the time in question (testimony of other early workers, excerpts of the Faith Mission publication "Bright Words", newspaper articles of the era) appears to contradict George's testimony. 3. There is no record of such testimony ever made by William Irvine himself. 4. In particular, the account of W.I. being baptized by a mystery "elder" is contradicted by the record that an early adherent and missionary named Tom (thereafter "the Baptist") Elliott was elected to perform and did perform the baptism of all of the early preachers and converts (see Jaenen's book, pg. 526, ref. to Patricia Roberts, ed., The Go Preacher Movement. An Anthology (Enniskillen: The Author, 2001), p. 54). 5. There is no record of subsequent adherents making any effort to reestablish contact with any of the "friends and workers" who had been "scattered" by the persecution in their homeland.
Of course, it must be understood that even if a "paper trail" could be established linking the present fellowship with some such previous fellowship in a distant country, such a connection still could not "prove" (historically) that the said former fellowship was the "direct descendent" fellowship of Christians which had "survived" or been "passed down", generation by generation, from the first century.
At one point in correspondence with George Gittins, George sent a copy of Cornelius Jaenen's written statement of some 20 or 30 years ago entitled "Following Up the First Century Christian Church." In this statement, Jaenen claims that there was a "remnant" of the "original Christianity" which made its way across Europe in a migration over the centuries and was laying dormant in Ireland at the time that Irvine arrived there circa 1896 and from thence "erupted" into the "revived" and "open" ministry that is known today. This researcher wrote to Jaenen asking what his sources were for making this claim. The above correspondence with George Gittins and related findings were also shared with Dr. Jaenen at this time with a request for any confirmation he might have. The following e-mail was his response:
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:02:38 -0500 (EST) From: cornelius jaenen Subject: CHRISTIANS
I have the E-mail; that was forwarded from the History department at the University of Ottawa where I am an Emeritus Professor long retired but active in graduate and post-doctoral studies, etc. I have noted carefully your research and thoughts and will confess there was a brief period when I too thought there was an unbroken apostolic succession of "workers" from the first century to our day.
One of the workers who disabused me of that idea was Stanley Lee, our overseer in Manitoba at the time. Of course, I then paid much more attention to the teaching given by Jack Carroll, George Walker, and especially Wilson Reid. The write-up under my name you refer to is unscientific and undocumented and should not be in circulation [this refers to Jaenen's statement entitled "Following Up the First Century Christian Church"].
I encourage you to read carefully, in short sections at a time or it becomes undigestable, "The Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship..." that sets out from documents the nature of the early church [not always what restorationists have imagined] and a "chain of witnesses" of efforts over the centuries to restore, regain, reconstitute, renew, retain, etc. the original faith. There was no unbroken consistent line of "workers" from the first century to our day [even the Roman Catholic succession is tenuous at times] but the Spirit was always working in the world to retain faith until Jesus returns. And so there were almost certainly "true believers" in every age and century somewhere but not in the sense of a constant visible community or fellowship. I have tried to formulate from the mediaeval documents the characteristics of such a spiritual people and tradition. "Hold fast the tradition you have been taught." Faith expresses itself in an ideal, a life-style, not always through a visible institution and hierarchy such as our fellowship at present since 1897. We are grateful that there has been this full restoration in our day, but our faith is not based on our organization or an unbroken lineage. We and what we believe is not the Way - Jesus is still THE WAY and He is THE TRUTH.
Warmest greetings and good wishes, Cornelius J. Jaenen
The researcher further proceeded to contact Wil Rolfe re. what he remembered Robert Darling telling him and whether or not what he remembered confirmed George Gittin's account. Here is his response:
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:28:03 -0500 From: "O.W. Rolfe" Subject: Re: Robert Darling
_____-
I don't know whether or not you have read the statement attributed to me on Cherie [Kropp]'s webpage [Telling The Truth], but it is accurate, and says most of what I know that Robert Darling said. He was at the Gilroy conventions in 1967, and went on up to the BC conventions after that, so the topic seems to have been on his mind. Anyway, here is what I wrote :
I have previously heard the account...attributed to Robert Darling about the beginnings of the church. I have no idea whether or not it is true, but I do know what Robert told me personally. I met Robert in 1958 at the Albuquerque convention; I then traveled with him to the three Mexican conventions. That is, he asked me to drive him in my car. I saw him every day for a period of weeks; he rode with me back to the Midwest where I was living at the time. We became good friends and corresponded regularly until his death in 1970. In 1967, he came to California, where I was then living, and I met him at the Gilroy conventions. He stayed with me between the two conventions, and we had great fun sight-seeing in the Bay Area. On this latter occasion I asked him about the beginnings of the church; he told me that it was started in Ireland by one man (whom he did not name, but I assumed to be William Irvine) after his sister had frozen to death because their parents had shut her out of the house. There was no mention at all of Switzerland. In fact, in all my discussions with him there was never the slightest implication that the church dated historically from an earlier time. He seemed to be somewhat distressed that so many people seemed to believe this.
If I can elaborate in any constructive way, please let me know.
Sincerely,
-WIL
The researcher did ask for further details, in particular regarding Irvine's sister, who has sometimes been cited as key in Irvine's religious experience. Here is Wil's response:
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 15:57:16 -0500 From: "O.W. Rolfe" Subject: Re: Robert Darling
_____-
It seems that Robert did say a little more about Irvine's sister, but I cannot for anything remember what he said. And the only other person who was present at that discussion is no longer living. He did say that fairly early on, the workers agreed not to mention Irvine's name, which was why he did not. But when we did, he did not disagree. There was no mention of Switzerland whatsoever, and my own conviction is that Robert entertained no Swiss connection. His clear indication to us was that the modern church began with Irvine. And one need only to read the Faith Mission's webpage to see that they had much of our church vocabulary....workers, fields, etc.
No, I have not done a great deal in research into the history of the church; I have read most of what is on the Internet, and Paul Abenroth lent me John Long's Journal before it was typed up and put on the Internet. Paul had gone to Ireland and obtained a Xeroxed copy of it in longhand.
I remember Robert's distress that so many people believed that there was a historical continuity, and said that it was not the truth. I remember remarking to a Montana worker that you can't build the Truth of God on a lie of man, and he agreed with me. One of the elders in Missoula, when confronted with the facts, said "But that means that we're no better than anyone else!" Exactly, we have no pedigree that saves us....in fact, nothing other than the redemptive blood of Christ.
-WIL
Thus concludes (so far!) one researcher's efforts to "get to the root" of the "historical continuity" issue.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 30, 2014 10:48:06 GMT -5
I see. That explains why the more detailed account has a date of November, 2005 and yours has December, 2005.
Wonder why the locations are different tho? One has Winnipeg and the other Ontario--and Winnipeg is not in Ontario.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2014 11:01:18 GMT -5
I see. That explains why the more detailed account has a date of November, 2005 and yours has December, 2005. Wonder why the locations are different tho? One has Winnipeg and the other Ontario--and Winnipeg is not in Ontario. Knowing the author, Winnipeg is the most likely location of the Gittens conversation.
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Post by christiansburg on Jan 30, 2014 11:49:20 GMT -5
There have been numerous comments and quotes evolving on TMB regarding my previous statements about William I. and his sister. The following is intended to clear up some uncertainty about what was actually posted by me and other various expanded suppositions. What I have added here today is the total of my recollections in reflection on a 1963 hearing of George Walker and Charlie Hughes as they discussed the subject of William I. and his sister.
In 1963 when I was a young worker age 23 George Walker and Charlie Hughes were on Special Meeting rounds in Richmond, Virginia, USA. George Walker was a visiting worker. There were 16 workers in the room. We all sat in silence and listened to the two of them. Of the 16 workers 9 are dead and only two are still in the work. In addition to George and Charlie there were 3 other workers from the old country in this 1963 meeting. Arthur Benton, Fanny Northridge and Rebecca Kerr were there. Fanny and Rebecca were from Ireland and knew about William Irvine's story and had heard it prior to that Special Meeting. Fanny was a woman of few words but Rebecca and I talked about it later and she confirmed that she knew that William's sister had an influence on his life. Neither Fanny nor Rebecca spoke about others who had preceded or influenced his sister.
George Walker and Charlie Hughes talked about how the gospel had moved out from Ireland. Their talk centered on William Irvine, his sister, John Long, Willie Gill and Eddie Cooney; how William Irvine was the first to mention starting a 2x2 ministry and that he and John Long pretty much came to a mutual agreement. They said it centered around William Irvine who had been influenced in his thinking by his sister telling him how she had been spiritually moved. He gave his sister credit for influencing him.
There were the words Charlie used: "It came into her heart to tell William about her experience." It was the beginning of a spiritual awakening in William. He did not elaborate beyond that. Neither George or Charlie ever claimed apostolic succession.
Signed: Christiansburg, TMB Dated January 29, 2014
I give permission for my statements above to be quoted and copied.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2014 12:47:23 GMT -5
Thank you, Christianburg. Yes, I agree with others, your account is no more nor less accurate than mine or anyone else's. We are all relying on a couple of points.
1. The strength of our individual memory as to contex, location, time and date, which are indeed fallible at very best.
2. The honesty in reporting by those relating to us what we heard being subject to the ver same human limitations.
Over my lifetime, there is something I have discovered. It is this regarding honesty: there seems to be wishful (with good intent) honesty, and factual honesty. Unfortunately, few (if any) of us have the ability to perceive which of the two we are hearing at the time of that hearing. Sometimes, afterward, it is a little easier to determine, no? In any case, I admire Cherie's attempts at digging out the factual honesty involved in these issues.
With so many other accounts of this trip of Robert Darling's to our Region pointing to a different year than I recall, I have sought to refresh my memory by every possible means. While in the work, I was invited to Silverdale only twice. In 1966 and 1969. I remember a great deal from the earlier date being just prior to Warren Wainwrite's departure for overseas, the first time in my worker experience to be selected to sit on the platform, and that I had gone there from preparing my only year to do so at Miltown. I am certain that was not the year Robert Darling was there. The second time was as I described earlier in 1969, and I am equally certain that was the year he was there. However, even I cannot say for absolute fact that I am not mixing the two occasions.
Still, 1966 does not fit with the timing accounts of others neither. Sigh! Too soon old, and never infallible!
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 28, 2014 14:30:17 GMT -5
Bob Ingram's letter to Paul & Diane Abenroth re "apostolic succession":
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 1, 2014 9:40:15 GMT -5
May I suggest that any who read Nate's 2 posts above personally check Dr. Jaenen's book before taking what Nate copies from it as fact. Nate is careless in his typing from material. For instance, he quoted from Pages 538-539 above, and I have indicated the errors and omissions he made in one paragraph below.
(Page 538-539) Our study leaveS no doubt that aT widely separated periods in EuropeAN history the ideaLs of a New Testament Church with an Itinerant ministry, lay participation and rudimentary sacraments were present over a considerable territorial expanse…BUT Wwe have been unable to establish from the documentary sources accessible to us a continuous, unbroken chain of either conventicles or poor ITINERANT preachers from the early centuries to the present. Nevertheless, the ideals and some forms of expression thereof are still with us as we move into the twenty-first century. That is why we have chosen to identify this last section of our work Survival and Revivals, inconcluding THEthat elements of both a continuing tradition and a conscious reinstitution were involved over the centuries.
Just beware: The rest of Nate's quotes may also contain errors. Best to go to the source, if you really want to know what Dr. J wrote.
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Post by jondough on Mar 1, 2014 14:24:34 GMT -5
Below is a little information on the Church Nathan stakes claims to as part of the 2X2 Apostolic succession;
Waldensians, Waldenses, Vallenses[1] or Vaudois are names for a Christian movement which started in Lyon and spread soon to the Cottian Alps in the late 1170s. The movement, named after founder Peter Waldo Currently, active congregations remain in Europe, South America, and North America, most under the label of the Waldensian Evangelical Church
Waldo and his followers developed a system whereby they would go from town to town and meet secretly with small groups of Waldensians. There they would confess sins and hold service. The early Waldensians were divided into three types of activity: Sandaliati (namely, those with sandals), who received sacred orders and were to prove the heresiarchs wrong; Doctores, who instructed and trained missionaries; and Novellani, who preached to the general population.[7] They were also called Insabbatati, Sabati, Inzabbatati Sabotiers due to the unusual type of sabot they used as footwear
Teachings Waldensians held and preached a number of truths as they read from the Bible. Some of these were: 1. The atoning death and justifying righteousness of Christ 2. The Godhead 3. The fall of man 4. The incarnation of the Son 5. They denied purgatory and said it was the 'invention of the Antichrist'.[30] 6. Valued voluntary poverty
Characteristics of the modern Waldensian Church The present Waldensian Church considers itself to be a Christian Protestant church of the Reformed tradition originally framed by Huldrych Zwingli and John Calvin.[4] It recognizes as its doctrinal standard the confession of faith published in 1655 and based on the Reformed confession of 1559. It admits only two ceremonies, baptism and the Lord's Supper.[4] Supreme authority in the body is exercised by an annual synod, and the affairs of the individual congregations are administered by a consistory under the presidency of the pastor.[4] Over the centuries, Waldensian churches have been established in countries as far away from France as Uruguay and the United States where the active Waldensian congregations continue the purpose of the Waldensian movement. The contemporary and historic Waldensian spiritual heritage describes itself as proclaiming the Gospel, serving the marginalized, promoting social justice, fostering inter-religious work, and advocating respect for religious diversity and freedom of conscience.[2] Today, the Waldensian Church is member of the World Alliance of Reformed Churches, the World Methodist Council, the Federation of Evangelical Churches in Italy, and the World Council of Churches
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Post by snow on Mar 1, 2014 15:08:28 GMT -5
Below is a little information on the Church Nathan stakes claims to as part of the 2X2 Apostolic succession; Waldensians, Waldenses, Vallenses[1] or Vaudois are names for a Christian movement which started in Lyon and spread soon to the Cottian Alps in the late 1170s. The movement, named after founder Peter WaldoCurrently, active congregations remain in Europe, South America, and North America, most under the label of the Waldensian Evangelical Church Waldo and his followers developed a system whereby they would go from town to town and meet secretly with small groups of Waldensians. There they would confess sins and hold service. The early Waldensians were divided into three types of activity: Sandaliati (namely, those with sandals), who received sacred orders and were to prove the heresiarchs wrong; Doctores, who instructed and trained missionaries; and Novellani, who preached to the general population.[7] They were also called Insabbatati, Sabati, Inzabbatati Sabotiers due to the unusual type of sabot they used as footwear Teachings Waldensians held and preached a number of truths as they read from the Bible. Some of these were: 1. The atoning death and justifying righteousness of Christ 2. The Godhead3. The fall of man 4. The incarnation of the Son 5. They denied purgatory and said it was the 'invention of the Antichrist'.[30] 6. Valued voluntary poverty Characteristics of the modern Waldensian Church The present Waldensian Church considers itself to be a Christian Protestant church of the Reformed tradition originally framed by Huldrych Zwingli and John Calvin.[4] It recognizes as its doctrinal standard the confession of faith published in 1655 and based on the Reformed confession of 1559. It admits only two ceremonies, baptism and the Lord's Supper.[4] Supreme authority in the body is exercised by an annual synod, and the affairs of the individual congregations are administered by a consistory under the presidency of the pastor.[4] Over the centuries, Waldensian churches have been established in countries as far away from France as Uruguay and the United States where the active Waldensian congregations continue the purpose of the Waldensian movement. The contemporary and historic Waldensian spiritual heritage describes itself as proclaiming the Gospel, serving the marginalized, promoting social justice, fostering inter-religious work, and advocating respect for religious diversity and freedom of conscience.[2] Today, the Waldensian Church is member of the World Alliance of Reformed Churches, the World Methodist Council, the Federation of Evangelical Churches in Italy, and the World Council of Churches In some ways the Cathars are a better match then the Waldensians. When I was searching trying to figure out where the doctrine for my parents religion came from, I came across the Cathars and was surprised at how similar they were in their beliefs. Not exact by any means, but very similar. That was before I came on here and found out things I had never known about them like the shunning and excommunication etc.
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Post by jondough on Mar 1, 2014 15:16:47 GMT -5
Below is a little information on the Church Nathan stakes claims to as part of the 2X2 Apostolic succession; Waldensians, Waldenses, Vallenses[1] or Vaudois are names for a Christian movement which started in Lyon and spread soon to the Cottian Alps in the late 1170s. The movement, named after founder Peter WaldoCurrently, active congregations remain in Europe, South America, and North America, most under the label of the Waldensian Evangelical Church Waldo and his followers developed a system whereby they would go from town to town and meet secretly with small groups of Waldensians. There they would confess sins and hold service. The early Waldensians were divided into three types of activity: Sandaliati (namely, those with sandals), who received sacred orders and were to prove the heresiarchs wrong; Doctores, who instructed and trained missionaries; and Novellani, who preached to the general population.[7] They were also called Insabbatati, Sabati, Inzabbatati Sabotiers due to the unusual type of sabot they used as footwear Teachings Waldensians held and preached a number of truths as they read from the Bible. Some of these were: 1. The atoning death and justifying righteousness of Christ 2. The Godhead3. The fall of man 4. The incarnation of the Son 5. They denied purgatory and said it was the 'invention of the Antichrist'.[30] 6. Valued voluntary poverty Characteristics of the modern Waldensian Church The present Waldensian Church considers itself to be a Christian Protestant church of the Reformed tradition originally framed by Huldrych Zwingli and John Calvin.[4] It recognizes as its doctrinal standard the confession of faith published in 1655 and based on the Reformed confession of 1559. It admits only two ceremonies, baptism and the Lord's Supper.[4] Supreme authority in the body is exercised by an annual synod, and the affairs of the individual congregations are administered by a consistory under the presidency of the pastor.[4] Over the centuries, Waldensian churches have been established in countries as far away from France as Uruguay and the United States where the active Waldensian congregations continue the purpose of the Waldensian movement. The contemporary and historic Waldensian spiritual heritage describes itself as proclaiming the Gospel, serving the marginalized, promoting social justice, fostering inter-religious work, and advocating respect for religious diversity and freedom of conscience.[2] Today, the Waldensian Church is member of the World Alliance of Reformed Churches, the World Methodist Council, the Federation of Evangelical Churches in Italy, and the World Council of Churches How about this one?........Does this sound like what happened and is happening in Vietnam?
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Post by jondough on Mar 1, 2014 20:38:39 GMT -5
~~ To JohnD: So at what point are you claiming that they became 2X2? Where do you get that info? This was from Wiki. Maybe you know better. Not one worker that I am aware of today believes in the "Godhead". It simply isn't so. If you think it is, then its because you are not enough in touch with today's workers. Same as stated earlier. We (our fellowship) does NOT believe in the Trinity. And please don't send me 50 year old sermons. Find me one Worker today that believes in the Trinity. We DO NOT accept all Christians to have fellowship. We only accept those in the "Truth" who have professed through a worker. What has changed in the thinking and belief, teaching, doctrines of the VN golden friends from when they were 2X2?
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Post by jondough on Mar 1, 2014 21:32:23 GMT -5
Of the Thousands of Workers world-wide since William Irvine, you have come up with a list of 20 Workers Nathan. What does that tell you?
I can tell you that if you ask about to every worker I know, they first look at you with a funny, question, look on their face, then they tell you that it is false teaching.
If you don't know this Nathan, maybe you are not too much in touch with today's workers.
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Post by jondough on Mar 1, 2014 21:42:53 GMT -5
Of the Thousands of Workers world-wide since William Irvine, you have come up with a list of 20 Workers Nathan. What does that tell you? I can tell you that if you ask about to every worker I know, they first look at you with a funny, question, look on their face, then they tell you that it is false teaching. If you don't know this Nathan, maybe you are not too much in touch with today's workers. The 2x2 friends and workers do believe the Trinity, Divinity of Christ and Godhead... but they don't use these terminologies... Do you want me to test you to see if you believe in these things but you don't know it?No they don't, and no. I've been around that merry-go-round too many times already. I've read plenty of your post on it. You are stating a false statement by saying the Friends and Workers believe in the Trinity. Please don't do that Nathan. Its not true.
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 1, 2014 21:45:40 GMT -5
Nathan, The test has already been done. We got kicked out of meetings , partially, because of that question. Of course, a retest is sometimes in order , but I imagine you will still get a failing grade if you openly question any "unofficial" doctrine of the 2x2's, and the report card will show your mark as F, not willing, uncooperative student, along with some other not so complimentary insinuations such as "student" is going to hell..............~~~~~~~~~ Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2014 21:57:10 GMT -5
Of the Thousands of Workers world-wide since William Irvine, you have come up with a list of 20 Workers Nathan. What does that tell you? I can tell you that if you ask about to every worker I know, they first look at you with a funny, question, look on their face, then they tell you that it is false teaching. If you don't know this Nathan, maybe you are not too much in touch with today's workers. I've asked both friends and workers and they look at you oddly and say 'we don't believe that stuff.'
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2014 22:34:19 GMT -5
The workers and the friends do worship Jesus as "My Lord and My God." in the Sunday worship meetings. They come together to worship the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I wish the current workers get the Trinity is Catholic teachings out of the friends heads! The concept of the Trinity= God the Father, God the Christ, and God the Holy Spirit have always exist in the Old Testament and throughout the New Testament! Yes, I have heard many workers and the friends through the years, saying/teaching that the Trinity is Catholic Church doctrine so it's heresy! They need to study these things for themselves, like the Bereans... Don't believe it just because you hear it from the workers!
The Catholic Church did NOT come up with the Trinity doctrine. It has always been in the Scriptures... and the Roman Catholic church just pointed these things out to others... MANY opposed it but some believe it. All I can say is that the workers and friends must be completely different in your neck of the woods. Over here, the workers and friends would worship Jesus as Lord but they do not worship Jesus as "my God". In CA, they worship Jesus only as 'Lord' and most often referred to Him as our 'elder brother'--never as God.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2014 23:19:31 GMT -5
In CA, they worship Jesus only as 'Lord' and most often referred to Him as our 'elder brother'--never as God. ~~ Lord is used for God, Jesus and for other people in positions of authority. For example Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified. (Acts 2:36)Here, “Lord” is clearly referring to Jesus. But in Acts 3:19-20 we read Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, This time, “Lord” must mean God as he is described as sending Jesus. In other places, it can refer to a man who has great authority (e.g., Caesar). In the New Testament, the Greek word translated Lord is κυριος (kyrios). In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word translated Lord is either אדן (adon) or אדני (adonay). In almost all cases, adonay refers to God and adon refers to human lords. In the Old Testament, it is common to see LORD in upper case letters (actually in small caps). In these cases, the Hebrew word is יהוה (Yahweh). This is the personal name of God (see Exodus 3:13-15 and Exodus 6:2-3) and means something like “He will be who he will be”. Several centuries before Jesus, Jews stopped pronouncing this name as it was considered too sacred, and they started to substitute the word Adonay (Lord) instead whenever they came across the word Yahweh. Following that tradition, almost all English translations also translate Yahweh as Lord. But to highlight that it is the personal name of God, it is printed in all capitals as LORD.bibleq.net/answer/59/Nathan, no one among the SoCa friends or workers that I know believes Jesus to be God the Son. Is that clear enough? He is not LORD to them, but Jesus Christ--that's it. They do not use Lord as meaning God the Son. They completely reject the notion of God the Father; God the Son; and God the Holy Spirit.
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Post by snow on Mar 1, 2014 23:28:42 GMT -5
Nathan, even the Catholic Church had a bloody war over this issue. The doctrine of the trinity only won because Constantine saw it as a way of furthering his divine right to rule. So he supported the priests that believed in the Trinity. However, how did we get on this subject again!!!!!
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