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Atheism
Dec 1, 2012 23:47:07 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 1, 2012 23:47:07 GMT -5
Thank you, emy! keep wondering why lee couldn't come up with that! With regard to your response 220, did you really wonder why Lee did not respond? I thought maybe he didn't really know the "scripture" after all!do you know why?
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Atheism
Dec 1, 2012 23:50:06 GMT -5
Post by Greg on Dec 1, 2012 23:50:06 GMT -5
With regard to your response 220, did you really wonder why Lee did not respond? I thought maybe he didn't really know the "scripture" after all!do you know why?
No.
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Post by Done4now on Dec 2, 2012 0:49:22 GMT -5
I thought maybe he didn't really know the "scripture" after all!do you know why?
No. It could be that he had other things planned for this weekend that are keeping him from hanging around here, constantly refreshing the page so that he can instantly respond to you. I wouldn't make anything of it--it isn't as though he is at this minute on the boards chatting on other threads while ignoring you. I wouldn't be too quick to dance in the end zone celebrating that the "Christian" doesn't know scripture. Judging by his past posts that might be rash.
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Atheism
Dec 2, 2012 13:35:41 GMT -5
Post by Lee on Dec 2, 2012 13:35:41 GMT -5
I might have read something into your post. So, to back-up... You are asking with the assumption that the belief comes from scripture. And you are asking for scripture. Do atheists have or accept any written word as 'scripture'? Or perhaps you are simply using 'scripture' as a word that Lee understands/accepts. Basically, anyway, you are only asking for scripture/Bible reference that God made mankind both male and female but not whether God is and actually made mankind male and female. What's the word....academic? Often when an atheist ask a question in the language* of someone who is a believer (in anything-Christian or what ever) & the atheist uses the language of the believer- such as I did in this case, Scripture- they are then accused of, "Why do you ask for that as evidence anyway since you don't believe it is true to start with?" Right. It's like telling someone to stand on their head. Now tell me how we are supposed to present the question to someone who has made a statement of what they believe & why they believe it, if not by asking them them for the source of their belief in their own language? If you're interested in dialogue you will frame questions from common assumptions.
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Atheism
Dec 2, 2012 17:07:02 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2012 17:07:02 GMT -5
Rational, on the other hand, show me proof that the bible IS fiction. I find it odd that atheists believe many historical documents but when it comes to scripture they claim it to be a myth. dlb5674, I have never heard it claimed that all scipture is a myth. And rarely have I heard it claimed that the Bible consists entirely of fiction. However I have heard it claimed that all scripture is true and that the Bible is the literal word of God. More often I have heard it claimed that the Bible is a collection of history, myths and wisdom albeit one littered with inaccuracies and mistranslations. Perhaps it would be more reasonable to invite Rational to make his own statement regarding scripture/the Bible and then to provide the proof to support it. Of course it also follows that having asked Rational to provide proof to support his view, he may reasonably ask the same thing of you. Matt10
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Atheism
Dec 2, 2012 18:55:54 GMT -5
Post by dlb5674 on Dec 2, 2012 18:55:54 GMT -5
Rational, on the other hand, show me proof that the bible IS fiction. I find it odd that atheists believe many historical documents but when it comes to scripture they claim it to be a myth. dlb5674, I have never heard it claimed that all scipture is a myth. And rarely have I heard it claimed that the Bible consists entirely of fiction. However I have heard it claimed that all scripture is true and that the Bible is the literal word of God. More often I have heard it claimed that the Bible is a collection of history, myths and wisdom albeit one littered with inaccuracies and mistranslations. Perhaps it would be more reasonable to invite Rational to make his own statement regarding scripture/the Bible and then to provide the proof to support it. Of course it also follows that having asked Rational to provide proof to support his view, he may reasonably ask the same thing of you. Matt10 Matt10, if you would wil willing to share YOUR point of view with supporting evidence that would be a good start. Rational, I invite you to share as well. Although I made no claims about what I believe but pointed out my observation that atheists ask Christians to provide evidence to support their beliefs without reciprocating I'm more than willing to offer my point of view if asked. I'm genuinely interested in what prompts individuals to hold a certain point of view.
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Atheism
Dec 2, 2012 19:55:02 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 2, 2012 19:55:02 GMT -5
Rational, on the other hand, show me proof that the bible IS fiction. I always like it when th burden of proof falls on those who are not making the claim. You state there is a god and then expect the non-believers to show you are wrong. You claim the bible is true, without proof, and then want the non-believers to show that your unsupported claim is true. The dead were raised from their graves and walked around yet no one noticed this or recorded it yet we have records of much more prosaic events. I think the belief in historical documents that have multiple sources is very different from a text where there is a single external source that makes mention of Jesus. Jesus, a man who raised people from the dead is un-noticed in history. Can you provide an example? External verification? In the case of the bible, I believe this is the case. The evidence is that you are unable to verify the bible. As long ago as the exodus from Egypt - there is no record of 2+ million people leaving. And the Egyptians have records that are very complete. But in this case it if difficult to show that the fiction is fact. But perhaps you have some new data.
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Atheism
Dec 2, 2012 20:02:37 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 2, 2012 20:02:37 GMT -5
Rational, I invite you to share as well. I believe it is a collection of texts written by men who wrote what they did based on what they knew as well as what they believed. Just as people sacrificed to paranormal beings throughout history in an attempt to curry their favor so did the writers tell what they thought would please the gods they had created. The reason this happens is because some atheists, like me, do not believe the bible is a true and accurate story. I am willing to leave it at that but then some believer comes up are makes the extraordinary claim that the bible is indeed factual and asks for proof that it isn't. When you make an extraordinary claim it is up to you to provide the extraordinary proof. In the case of the bible - there are contradictions and errors in fact that make it, at least, a record that is not inerrant.
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Atheism
Dec 2, 2012 20:23:01 GMT -5
Post by dlb5674 on Dec 2, 2012 20:23:01 GMT -5
Rational, on the other hand, show me proof that the bible IS fiction. I always like it when th burden of proof falls on those who are not making the claim. You state there is a god and then expect the non-believers to show you are wrong. You claim the bible is true, without proof, and then want the non-believers to show that your unsupported claim is true. The dead were raised from their graves and walked around yet no one noticed this or recorded it yet we have records of much more prosaic events. I think the belief in historical documents that have multiple sources is very different from a text where there is a single external source that makes mention of Jesus. Jesus, a man who raised people from the dead is un-noticed in history. Can you provide an example? External verification? In the case of the bible, I believe this is the case. The evidence is that you are unable to verify the bible. As long ago as the exodus from Egypt - there is no record of 2+ million people leaving. And the Egyptians have records that are very complete. But in this case it if difficult to show that the fiction is fact. But perhaps you have some new data. I did not actually state a point of view in my post. I merely stated an observation and asked a question. According to historians the bible was compiled by multiple sources based on the assumption they actually observed what they recorded. There are some sources, however, that recorded portion of scripture long after the recorded events occurred that obviously gathered their data from other sources so I must question the accuracy of certain portions of scripture. You appear to be certain (I may have leaped to a conclusion) that there is no truth to scripture? If so, what supporting evidence has caused you to form this conclusion? At what point in history can we trust the validity of recorded documentation? How do we know which history books we studied in school were correct? What validates fact from your point of view? My comments/questions may seem unreasonable - but are they?
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Atheism
Dec 2, 2012 20:26:47 GMT -5
Post by dlb5674 on Dec 2, 2012 20:26:47 GMT -5
Rational, I invite you to share as well. I believe it is a collection of texts written by men who wrote what they did based on what they knew as well as what they believed. Just as people sacrificed to paranormal beings throughout history in an attempt to curry their favor so did the writers tell what they thought would please the gods they had created. The reason this happens is because some atheists, like me, do not believe the bible is a true and accurate story. I am willing to leave it at that but then some believer comes up are makes the extraordinary claim that the bible is indeed factual and asks for proof that it isn't. When you make an extraordinary claim it is up to you to provide the extraordinary proof. In the case of the bible - there are contradictions and errors in fact that make it, at least, a record that is not inerrant. Well, actually, unless everything I observe and see are nothing more than a mere figment of my imagination, I have no choice but to conclude that a much more powerful source than man has created all that I observe. What are your thoughts on this? Actually, I appreciate your straightforward way of presenting things.
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Post by rational on Dec 3, 2012 0:03:12 GMT -5
You appear to be certain (I may have leaped to a conclusion) that there is no truth to scripture? If so, what supporting evidence has caused you to form this conclusion? I don't think I said no truth. Some things are known to be true and are backed up by external documentation or physical evidence. But I do find it difficult to believe that the earth stopped rotating, reversed rotation by a few degrees, stopped rotating, and then resumed its rotation while the people on the surface only noticed the shadow of the sun changing. Multiple sources? Physical evidence? Many of them weren't due to the bias of the writers. Columbus, for example, was not the hero he was made out to be. Data that can be examined by independent people and still bring them to the same conclusion.
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Post by rational on Dec 3, 2012 0:05:37 GMT -5
Well, actually, unless everything I observe and see are nothing more than a mere figment of my imagination, I have no choice but to conclude that a much more powerful source than man has created all that I observe. What are your thoughts on this? Sounds like this is your belief and because you cannot explain all that you observe and see you have thrown in a god of the gaps. I try not to let spirituality cloud the facts.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2012 0:39:21 GMT -5
Matt10, if you would wil willing to share YOUR point of view with supporting evidence that would be a good start. Rational, I invite you to share as well. Although I made no claims about what I believe but pointed out my observation that atheists ask Christians to provide evidence to support their beliefs without reciprocating I'm more than willing to offer my point of view if asked. I'm genuinely interested in what prompts individuals to hold a certain point of view. dlb5674 I believe the Bible to be a collection of texts containing a mix of myths, history, wisdom and the absurd. I believe these texts have been have been subject to much translation and mistranslation over the centuries and contain many inaccuracies. Which of the elements of this statement do you wish me to provide evidence for to support my view - the history, the myths, the wisdom or the absurd? Now that I and others have provided our views I would invite you to put forward your views on the Bible together with the evidence to support your view. In particular I would be interested in whether you believe the Bible to any more [valid/true/God inspired] than any other religious book and, if so, your reasons for believing it to be so. Matt10
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Atheism
Dec 3, 2012 21:39:50 GMT -5
Post by Lee on Dec 3, 2012 21:39:50 GMT -5
You have to understand first dlb5674, that the atheist has no argument for anything, only against. In the meantime he will distract you if he can with questions like whether the tree is actually standing in front of you or not when the important questions are why is the tree standing in front of you at all and how is it relating to the things that are standing around it.
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Atheism
Dec 3, 2012 21:40:52 GMT -5
Post by Lee on Dec 3, 2012 21:40:52 GMT -5
ty for your input Greg and ckirkham
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Atheism
Dec 3, 2012 21:59:40 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 3, 2012 21:59:40 GMT -5
You have to understand first dlb5674, that the atheist has no argument for anything, only against. You have to remember that the atheist can only argue against whatever definition of your favorite paranormal being that you wish to put forth. Oddly enough, getting a theist to define their god is a difficult task. ever any specifics. Sort of like getting believers to describe heaven and what will be going on there for all of eternity and why it is desirable. Sounds like you would like to control the discussion and following your own agenda, brushing off questions you cannot answer. But if you want to discuss your paranormal being, define the entity and give your arguments as to why you believe s/he exists.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 4, 2012 1:52:04 GMT -5
You have to understand first dlb5674, that the atheist has no argument for anything, only against. In the meantime he will distract you if he can with questions like whether the tree is actually standing in front of you or not when the important questions are why is the tree standing in front of you at all and how is it relating to the things that are standing around it. Lee, what is really happening here is that YOU are the one distracting away from the discussion, a tactic called the "red herring fallacy"( Hows that! I matched color of fallacy to the statement you made?) faune has an excellent thread on ad hominem fallacies where the red Herring fallacy is described ( as well as many others- definitely a very informative thread) The red herring idea is to throw the other person off the trail of the discussion by saying something totally irrelevant. (as you just did) Most often done when one isn't able to state a valid argument of their own.
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Post by ghost on Dec 4, 2012 6:39:06 GMT -5
Near death Experiences - nice myths forming the basis of a nice science fiction novel, The Thanatonauts (from Thanatos, the greek word of Death) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_ThanatonautesProof that something DOES NOT exist - religious people often ask atheists to prove that God does not exist. This is absurd, like asking someone to prove that dragons, wizards or other imaginary people or things do not exist. Things that do not exist need no proof of their non existence. On the contrary, people who believe in fairy tales should bear the burden of proof for the things they believe exist - basing this assumption of existence only on faith, and not on irrefutable truths (observation, experiment). Of course there are things we do not know. So one should not invent one (or more as was the case with other cultures) gods to explain things that (s)he does not know. See also threads about miracles that proved not to be ones at all ... at professing.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=atheism&action=display&thread=6624 and professing.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=atheism&action=display&thread=6623
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Atheism
Dec 4, 2012 15:12:12 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 4, 2012 15:12:12 GMT -5
Near death Experiences - nice myths forming the basis of a nice science fiction novel, The Thanatonauts (from Thanatos, the greek word of Death) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_ThanatonautesProof that something DOES NOT exist - religious people often ask atheists to prove that God does not exist. This is absurd, like asking someone to prove that dragons, wizards or other imaginary people or things do not exist. Things that do not exist need no proof of their non existence. On the contrary, people who believe in fairy tales should bear the burden of proof for the things they believe exist - basing this assumption of existence only on faith, and not on irrefutable truths (observation, experiment). Of course there are things we do not know. So one should not invent one (or more as was the case with other cultures) gods to explain things that (s)he does not know. See also threads about miracles that proved not to be ones at all ... at professing.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=atheism&action=display&thread=6624 and professing.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=atheism&action=display&thread=6623 Well done, ghost!
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Atheism
Dec 4, 2012 16:41:37 GMT -5
Post by dlb5674 on Dec 4, 2012 16:41:37 GMT -5
I'm back for more interesting discussion. I believe it was Matt10 that asked me for my view of things.
I do NOT believe in religion. From my standpoint religion is based on man's opinion and nothing short of opinion. From that point, opinion divides, division creates pride and friction, friction creates war...you get my point.
But I DO believe in a power or supernatural(for lack of a better term) entity that has made all that exists and I can physically see and feel. God is a term tossed around carelessly and you're correct when you say there is no true definition for what is referred to as GOD. And I think some people conjure up all kinds of interpretations for the power that created all things.
I do NOT believe in a "big bang" theory. It is nothing more than a theory and in my opinion, falls short of any supportable evidence. Too much order in the universe (as well as some crazy unexplainable things). I think man is prideful, arrogant and just cannot stand the fact that he/she cannot explain why we are here, what our purpose is and what truth is. So to bolster the ego all kinds of ridiculous statements are made.
Now, call me stupid if you desire (frankly I don't care what you call me) but I do NOT believe there is a single living being on this planet that can create anything we call life. I've seen some utterly RIDICULOUS statements implying that sex causes a baby to be born. WHAT? Let's dig a little deeper. Where did the sperm and the egg start? How did plant life begin that sustains life?? Where did oxygen come from that sustains life? Tell me about gravity. Where did this come from?
I asked a pretty simple question- WHY do you believe there is no higher power that has created all that we experience? Please note that many refer to this higher power as God. What brought you to this point? I am truly interested in understanding why. Matt10 attempted to answer this but still no real answer. I'm not sure that I've seen any evidence (proof) offered by atheists that there is NO higher power.
As far as the bible goes, that doesn't even factor into any claims I make regarding a higher power. I don't need the bible to prove anything to me regarding a higher power. My eyes tell me all that I need to know. My heart....that is a different story altogether.
SO, I'm still interested, if you're willing to share why you believe as you do I am genuinely interested in reading your views. I respect your views and hope you'll respect mine as well.
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Atheism
Dec 4, 2012 18:25:31 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 4, 2012 18:25:31 GMT -5
I do NOT believe in a "big bang" theory. It is nothing more than a theory and in my opinion, falls short of any supportable evidence. Perhaps we have different definitions of what a theory is. The current theory does provide predictions of events as expected. That is when the god of the gaps is thrown in. It has been my experience that most scientists have no problem with saying that they don't know the answer while they continue to search. I agree. Fantastic stories about magical beings that have created man. Beings that want the worship of men and complete obedience. Really? It was in the news. Replicating DNA made from raw materials.So many questions. There are a number of ideas but blue-green algae is often at the root of the story - the start of the plants. And the oxygen, at least about 98% of it comes from photosynthesis. And the ova and the sperm - well, unless you are a believer in evolution (which I suspect you are not) an explanation would be a waste of electrons. It is pretty easy for me to answer. The same reason I do not think a kangaroo and an aardvark were involved in your conception - they simply are not necessary. There are explanations that do not require the god of the gaps. Absolutely no evidence that this higher power exists. I'll do the best I can. Define this higher power and I will tell you why I do not believe in it. Or bring evidence of this higher power and I will consider that as well. Reproducible. Falsifiable. Observable. I can show you images that will show you how you cannot believe your eyes.
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Atheism
Dec 4, 2012 19:19:46 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 4, 2012 19:19:46 GMT -5
I'm back for more interesting discussion. I believe it was Matt10 that asked me for my view of things. I do NOT believe in religion. From my standpoint religion is based on man's opinion and nothing short of opinion. From that point, opinion divides, division creates pride and friction, friction creates war...you get my point. But I DO believe in a power or supernatural(for lack of a better term) entity that has made all that exists and I can physically see and feel. God is a term tossed around carelessly and you're correct when you say there is no true definition for what is referred to as GOD. And I think some people conjure up all kinds of interpretations for the power that created all things. I do NOT believe in a "big bang" theory. It is nothing more than a theory and in my opinion, falls short of any supportable evidence. Too much order in the universe (as well as some crazy unexplainable things). I think man is prideful, arrogant and just cannot stand the fact that he/she cannot explain why we are here, what our purpose is and what truth is. So to bolster the ego all kinds of ridiculous statements are made. Now, call me stupid if you desire (frankly I don't care what you call me) but I do NOT believe there is a single living being on this planet that can create anything we call life. I've seen some utterly RIDICULOUS statements implying that sex causes a baby to be born. WHAT? Let's dig a little deeper. Where did the sperm and the egg start? How did plant life begin that sustains life?? Where did oxygen come from that sustains life? Tell me about gravity. Where did this come from? I asked a pretty simple question- WHY do you believe there is no higher power that has created all that we experience? Please note that many refer to this higher power as God. What brought you to this point? I am truly interested in understanding why. Matt10 attempted to answer this but still no real answer. I'm not sure that I've seen any evidence (proof) offered by atheists that there is NO higher power. As far as the bible goes, that doesn't even factor into any claims I make regarding a higher power. I don't need the bible to prove anything to me regarding a higher power. My eyes tell me all that I need to know. My heart....that is a different story altogether. SO, I'm still interested, if you're willing to share why you believe as you do I am genuinely interested in reading your views. I respect your views and hope you'll respect mine as well. Thank you for your honest expression of how you feel about this.
One thing I would like to clear up again.
Atheists define themselves over & over & over, again, ad infintium but many theists often insist on defining us instead of taking our definition!
(For a look at such, take a look at the very first post on this thread.
We are said by some that atheists "rage" at god among many other fallacies.
Your own statement is milder but really the same.
As if atheists "offered proof that their is no higher power"
As an atheist I'm not trying to offer anyone any proof that that there is NO higher power!
That would be foolish & with a lot of hubris on my part.
All I have said, & I believe most atheists do the same, is simply that I don't see enough evidence to cause me to believe in a higher "supernatural" or "paranormal" being.
Now my reason is that, after leaving the "Truth" ( 2by2's as it is called here) that I had believed in for at least 40 years- I did a lot of thinking, research in other religions & the psychology of why people seem to have the need to believe in a higher power or a "supernatural" being.
I saw most all religions are based on simular ideas about life & the world around them & their need to understand their environment.
When they didn't know they tended to "create" an answer.
Why, did that hill (volcano)suddenly send ash & hot lava down the hill & threaten their lives? Why did the earth rumble & start making cracks that could take in their whole village?
Much further along they asked the questions you did.
Legitimate questions
What is gravity? Where & when did oxygen come about that sustains life?
Humankind's curiosity has often been a boom as well as a bane.
It has helped us progress on many fronts:
- ex: learning what causes many illnesses & working to overcome them.
A bane because too many times the higher power's (gods) that we created caused us to do vile things to our own & other people.
-ex: human sacrifice.
My conclusion was simply that I no longer believe or need to believe in any "supernatural" higher power.
End.
Period.
Thank you.
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Atheism
Dec 4, 2012 19:58:22 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 4, 2012 19:58:22 GMT -5
Rational, please show us the image/s that we can't believe with our eyes. Thanks. The squares labeled "A" and "B" are the same shade of grey.
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Atheism
Dec 4, 2012 20:52:10 GMT -5
Post by dlb5674 on Dec 4, 2012 20:52:10 GMT -5
And the conversation flows...Rational a few questions for you:
1. Please explain what this "god of the gaps" is from you viewpoint. 2. You posted the following comment "Really? It was in the news. Replicating DNA made from raw materials." Now, please explain to me WHERE the raw materials were obtained? Did man create them? To me, that is a shallow and pointless response. We cannot create ANYTHING from nothing! Obviously mankind has enough intelligence (probably more than we understand) to take something that has been provided for us and get creative. But other than that - zip! 3) You still have not explained to me what your conclusions are about how things were created from nothingness. I'm interested in knowing how you feel things came to "be". Is it possible that if we don't have an explanation for something we dismiss it as irrelevant? I believe Lee might have had a relevant point about distraction tactics. A simple question regarding how things came to "be" in the first place (to me) obviously points to a power far greater than any man/woman. 4) the optical illusion point is also a diversion. Unless (as I indicated in another post) I am simply imagining all that I see, I think I have enough intelligence to conclude that something far greater than mankind exists. How would YOU define this "something"?
And now dmmichgood, I don't believe in fabricated gods, but I DO believe in a higher power!
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Atheism
Dec 4, 2012 21:04:59 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 4, 2012 21:04:59 GMT -5
And the conversation flows.. And now dmmichgood, I don't believe in fabricated gods, but I DO believe in a higher power! OK. but can you tell me why you feel the need to believe in a "higher power"?
And can you describe that "higher power"?
Do you think the "higher power" is a "normal" or "natural" power, however, just one we just haven't discovered yet?
Or do you believe the "higher power" is a power that sits outside of space & time- in other words not a part of the energy & material of our universe?
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Atheism
Dec 4, 2012 21:40:29 GMT -5
Post by jondough on Dec 4, 2012 21:40:29 GMT -5
Rational, please show us the image/s that we can't believe with our eyes. Thanks. The squares labeled "A" and "B" are the same shade of grey. I have another one for you; ;D These two faces are the same
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Atheism
Dec 4, 2012 22:32:07 GMT -5
Post by dlb5674 on Dec 4, 2012 22:32:07 GMT -5
And the conversation flows.. And now dmmichgood, I don't believe in fabricated gods, but I DO believe in a higher power! OK. but can you tell me why you feel the need to believe in a "higher power"?
And can you describe that "higher power"?
Do you think the "higher power" is a "normal" or "natural" power, however, just one we just haven't discovered yet?
Or do you believe the "higher power" is a power that sits outside of space & time- in other words not a part of the energy & material of our universe?Good questions dmmichgood. Let me ask you to consider a few things. Thought 1 - If you look in your driveway and see a car parked neatly in your driveway with the doors locked and no key in the ignition ( that you did not park there and does not belong to you) would you assume that it simply magically appeared or would you be inclined to believe that "someone" drove it into your driveway and parked it there? Thought 2 - Where did the energy and material of our universe come from? My point is....EVERYTHING that exists "should" have a point of origin - shouldn't it? If not, how do you propose things "came to be"? Mankind can only create something when he/she has something else to work with. I'm not completely convinced that we can make something out of nothing. But I'm open to evidence that would prove otherwise. When I was a kid I asked ...."OK, then where did God come from?" You see, I was asking that question even as a kid! But I still believe in an unexplainable higher power.
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Atheism
Dec 4, 2012 22:35:29 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 4, 2012 22:35:29 GMT -5
And the conversation flows...Rational a few questions for you: 1. Please explain what this "god of the gaps" is from you viewpoint. It is the idea that when there are gaps in scientific knowledge that it is proof of the existence of a paranormal being, perhaps known as god. It is, in most cases, a type of the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad ignorantiam or argument from ignorance. Are you now posing an additional question? Did you mean to ask about the origin of matter or whether man could create life? I suspect that we will soon need an exact definition of life. This is an example of argumentum ad ignorantiam. Man did not create matter. You could send in the god of the gaps. That is true to a point. But current theory has some interesting ideas about this. You seem to be circling around a number of issues - the creation of life, the origin of matter, the source of the energy in the universe, and probably other things as well. Easiest path - they were created by a "higher power". This, of course, just pushes the questions back one step. Provided? Formed? So what, exactly, was your question? The creation of life or the creation of matter/energy/space? First of all, this is not my conclusion but the prevailing model that describes the development of the early Universe. There is not a really short version of the current theory. But here is a try: Expanding from a singularity, the universe underwent rapid expansion, cooling enough in the process to allow the formation of matter. In that instant all energy, matter, and space was created and has been expanding ever since. The Big Bang Theory is the current thinking on how things came to be. It is a well supported theory. It explains a very wide range of observable and measurable phenomena. In addition the basic ideas, from the initial expansion to the formation of galaxies are well supported by observations that are unrelated to any theory of the creation of the universe.Not in the least. It is marked as an unknown and, as data becomes available, solutions are found.Like many things, relativity needs to be considered. What is relative to him may not be to you. It does point to the fact that there was no man/woman standing there directing the big bang. It was 13+ billion years ago. Man has been around for less than a million years. No one thinks man was involved in the creation of the universe. Here again are multiple points. You stated: My eyes tell me all that I need to know.I did not see it as a diversion and I replied: I can show you images that will show you how you cannot believe your eyes.You cannot always believe what you see and I then responded to Nathan and provided an example to back up what I claimed. Something, I might add, that you have yet to do. And then you fall back on argumentum ad ignorantiam. You believe that there is something far greater than mankind. I don't. So I really can't define it. Remember at one time thunder was considered something far greater than mankind and people called it Thor and worshiped that entity. Not a lot of use for Thor now that it is known that thunder is simply the expansion of rapidly heated air creating supersonic shock wave. your post contradicts this claim about fabricated gods. Fabricated gods or fabricated higher power - there is no difference.
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