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Atheism
Nov 30, 2012 20:38:45 GMT -5
Post by rational on Nov 30, 2012 20:38:45 GMT -5
Did Saturn really drive a quadriga? Did Thor really have his magic hammer, Mjölnir? Asclepius raised people from the dead but really got on the wrong side of Zeus. It just depends on which story you want to believe. The question is - can you find external support for any of them? What do you mean by External support? A source other than the bible. According to a single unverified story. Just like the story about Asclepius.You choose to believe one and reject the other. Remember, the bible tells about the dead rising from their graves and wondering about. Yet there is no mention of this in any other writings. Or the earthquake. Or the darkness. How do you explain there is no record of these very extraordinary events?
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Atheism
Nov 30, 2012 20:41:14 GMT -5
Post by sharonw on Nov 30, 2012 20:41:14 GMT -5
I have a question for the Atheists, Do you believe that we have a soul? If you don't. Can you explain the experiences of those that have actually died and come back to life? They explain about being in a tunnel, and seeing the light, etc, there is much more. I am caused to believe that their stories are true due to the fact that all the ones I have heard are very similar. All the ones that I have heard that have gone through this experience VERY MUCH believe there is life after death. You could say they were dreaming, but why would they all have the same dream? I remember as a kid, hearing a similar experience by one of our Sister Workers - Charlotte Brown who died of cancer. I hardly remember the story, just vaguely ( I wonder if anyone else on this board has heard the story?). I'm interested to hear what you feel is an explanation for all this. First of all, in those experiences they did NOT die!
If they had died, they wouldn't be back here telling us of their experience!
Secondly, their experiences are similar because all our brains are much the same in many ways & as the body gets less & less oxygen it tends to react in the same way: tunnel, light at the end, etc.
There is a lot written on the subject: Near Death Experiences
Seems to be a considerable amount of doubt about the NDE's.....I can assure you that they are real, and not all of them are exactly te same but close to it perhaps.... I'm not sure of the life after death becoming a certainty in the NDE's, but I think the certainty that there is a God is in most of them and I think most of those in the NDE's are very aware of that God quality being there....
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Atheism
Nov 30, 2012 20:43:59 GMT -5
Post by sharonw on Nov 30, 2012 20:43:59 GMT -5
I have a question for the Atheists, Do you believe that we have a soul? If you don't. Can you explain the experiences of those that have actually died and come back to life? They explain about being in a tunnel, and seeing the light, etc, there is much more. I am caused to believe that their stories are true due to the fact that all the ones I have heard are very similar. All the ones that I have heard that have gone through this experience VERY MUCH believe there is life after death. You could say they were dreaming, but why would they all have the same dream? I remember as a kid, hearing a similar experience by one of our Sister Workers - Charlotte Brown who died of cancer. I hardly remember the story, just vaguely ( I wonder if anyone else on this board has heard the story?). I'm interested to hear what you feel is an explanation for all this. I get it from Genesis that our breath that is given us on birth is our soul or at least we become a living soul at that moment. And as it's been said the spirit is what is born again on coversion and it is also that which goes back to Jesus when we die and until He calls us and we arise then we'll be joined together with our spirit that has been in Jesus' keeping. I noticed that Jesus even told the Father while on the cross as He was nearing death, that He committed His spirit back to the Father for His keeping!
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Atheism
Nov 30, 2012 20:52:09 GMT -5
Post by sharonw on Nov 30, 2012 20:52:09 GMT -5
I believe they describe them as clinically dead. I don't even claim to know the first thing about this, I was at a book store one time when a lady that had clinically died for quite some time and had come back was there explaining her experience. So that's all I really know about it. I don't really have an opinion of what they were experiencing when they went through it all. I can only tell you that this lady was sure that she was seeing the after-life. She supposedly went way beyond the tunnel and the light. I was just curious what you that don't believe there is an after-life thought about this. Well, from my own experience as a nurse, I've never seen anyone be clinically dead & return to life.
The brain which produces those images of tunnel etc. dies very quickly without enough oxygen, other organs less quickly & in fact last longer.
But when the heart ceases to circulate the blood carrying oxygen soon everything dies.
There really is a wealth of info about NDE's out there that you can easily access on the Internet.As I have experienced 3 different people being declared dead by an attending physician and they DID come back to life. First one was a man that had 3 nurses and 2 physicians doing a Code Blue on for over 45 mins. when both drs, told us it was enough and they pronounced him dead, both have checked him over very carefully for breath or pulse. They went to sign him out dead and while one of them was dictating the Code, they heard a man's voice hollering quite loud "Where is the ba***** that broke my ribs?" One dr. jumped the desk and the other jumped the swinging door at the nurses' station and run back down to the patient's room and there the man was with the sheet that'd been pulled up over his head off in the floor and he was sitting up in bed madder then a wet hen. Course they had to explain to him and he let them check him over again and they gave him a clean bill of health and he went home the next day. I also know of 2 more people whom I was close to that had a NDE and there was nothing that would have made me think they were not telling the truth....and then I had a NDE and I KNOW that it is a possible happenstance!
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Atheism
Nov 30, 2012 20:57:46 GMT -5
Post by sharonw on Nov 30, 2012 20:57:46 GMT -5
A flash-lite shinning in her face?
A small falsh-lite shinning in her eyes to see if her pupils reacted?
Who pronounced her dead & didn't they try to revive her?
There are all these factors to consider.
That is why one needs to go into what really happens. These are not good explanations due to the fact that they all see simular things (including children) from completely different experiences. Some of them have been from a morge. Some were brain dead, which means their vision wouldn't have been working, nor their hearing. I will have to say that I am very much a skeptic, but...If I didn't believe in an after-life, and was investing solely on this life. This would all be very troubling. In the NDE experience I had told above, one of the physicians that had attended the poor man in his dying was such a medical person as to not believe in NDE's...but AFTER dealing with that man he did believe and believe firmly...He knew that he and his cohort physician BOTH had checked the man over veryly careful and both did NOT find pulse or signof breath..... I know most people ARE skeptic about the NDE's, but I also have known some of the worst skeptics about NDE's have had one and then they get angry when other people don't believe them!
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Atheism
Nov 30, 2012 23:12:17 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 30, 2012 23:12:17 GMT -5
Well, from my own experience as a nurse, I've never seen anyone be clinically dead & return to life.
The brain which produces those images of tunnel etc. dies very quickly without enough oxygen, other organs less quickly & in fact last longer.
But when the heart ceases to circulate the blood carrying oxygen soon everything dies.
There really is a wealth of info about NDE's out there that you can easily access on the Internet. As I have experienced 3 different people being declared dead by an attending physician and they DID come back to life. First one was a man that had 3 nurses and 2 physicians doing a Code Blue on for over 45 mins. when both drs, told us it was enough and they pronounced him dead, both have checked him over very carefully for breath or pulse. They went to sign him out dead and while one of them was dictating the Code, they heard a man's voice hollering quite loud "Where is the ba***** that broke my ribs?" One dr. jumped the desk and the other jumped the swinging door at the nurses' station and run back down to the patient's room and there the man was with the sheet that'd been pulled up over his head off in the floor and he was sitting up in bed madder then a wet hen. Course they had to explain to him and he let them check him over again and they gave him a clean bill of health and he went home the next day. I also know of 2 more people whom I was close to that had a NDE and there was nothing that would have made me think they were not telling the truth....and then I had a NDE and I KNOW that it is a possible happenstance! I'm not doubting the experiences of the people that you cite.
I'm not doubting that they experienced what they felt or that they saw.
In fact there are many have such experience reported every day.
And such experiences are reported throughout history- going back to Plato's incident in The Republic
What I do dispute (and many of those that study neurology- how the brain works) is the interpretation that people have about their experience.
It is no doubt they have them & no doubt they believe what they feel happen- but that doesn't it is true that they actually HAD an after life experience.As I said, there is a wealth of info on the subject that you can look into.
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Atheism
Nov 30, 2012 23:27:26 GMT -5
Post by Lee on Nov 30, 2012 23:27:26 GMT -5
I don't know where you are. Your profile says California-is there an "UR" some where in CA?
Or you lost? & don't know where you are?
Afraid I can't help you out on that one! The left coast is in Ur. I was wondering why you thought the representation of God by a sexual bias, priority or association was a proof against him or her?
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Atheism
Nov 30, 2012 23:55:10 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 30, 2012 23:55:10 GMT -5
I don't know where you are. Your profile says California-is there an "UR" some where in CA?
Or you lost? & don't know where you are?
Afraid I can't help you out on that one! The left coast is in Ur. I was wondering why you thought the representation of God by a sexual bias, priority or association was a proof against him or her? You know, half the time I have no idea what you are talking about!
This time I THINK you are asking why did I use the term goddess - it was simply because Judeo-Christians (like yourself?) never acknowledge a god could possibly be anything but male .
As an atheist of course, I don't believe in a GOD or a GODDESS
Do you not understand sarcasm when you read it?
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Post by Lee on Dec 1, 2012 0:19:19 GMT -5
The left coast is in Ur. I was wondering why you thought the representation of God by a sexual bias, priority or association was a proof against him or her? You know, half the time I have no idea what you are talking about!
This time I THINK you are asking why did I use the term goddess - it was simply because Judeo-Christians (like yourself?) never acknowledge a god could possibly be anything but male .
As an atheist of course, I don't believe in a GOD or a GODDESS
Do you not understand sarcasm when you read it?I can usually pick out spotty arguments as well. Judeo-Christians hold that God created mankind male and female. The prototypical primacy of the male is not a reproach of the female but an affirmation of the ontological and symbiotic unity of the species.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 1, 2012 0:57:34 GMT -5
You know, half the time I have no idea what you are talking about!
This time I THINK you are asking why did I use the term goddess - it was simply because Judeo-Christians (like yourself?) never acknowledge a god could possibly be anything but male .
As an atheist of course, I don't believe in a GOD or a GODDESS
Do you not understand sarcasm when you read it? I can usually pick out spotty arguments as well. Judeo-Christians hold that God created mankind male and female. . Cite scripture for that
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 1, 2012 1:09:00 GMT -5
You know, half the time I have no idea what you are talking about!
This time I THINK you are asking why did I use the term goddess - it was simply because Judeo-Christians (like yourself?) never acknowledge a god could possibly be anything but male .
As an atheist of course, I don't believe in a GOD or a GODDESS
Do you not understand sarcasm when you read it? I can usually pick out spotty arguments as well. Judeo-Christians hold that God created mankind male and female. The prototypical primacy of the male is not a reproach of the female but an affirmation of the ontological and symbiotic unity of the species. and that BULL FECES argument is always used by men to keep women in subjection to them by other religions than your own.
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Post by rational on Dec 1, 2012 2:28:19 GMT -5
A source other than the bible. According to a single unverified story. Just like the story about Asclepius.You choose to believe one and reject the other. Remember, the bible tells about the dead rising from their graves and wondering about. Yet there is no mention of this in any other writings. Or the earthquake. Or the darkness. How do you explain there is no record of these very extraordinary events? Ok... How about Ejiah and Moses who died a few thousand years ago, came back to earth and spoke with Jesus face to face on Mt. transfiguration in Matthew 17:1-6.... So, was that their (Jesus, Peter, James, and John) own minds imagination? or it was REAL event happened before their eyes? Can you explain the special event with your atheist mind. What are your thoughts, rational. And evidence of these happenings outside of the bible? The Odyssey (Homer) tells the story of Odysseus. Do you believe that story? How does it differ from the bible?
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Atheism
Dec 1, 2012 11:08:50 GMT -5
Post by Greg on Dec 1, 2012 11:08:50 GMT -5
I can usually pick out spotty arguments as well. Judeo-Christians hold that God created mankind male and female. . Cite scripture for thatJust curious, if he gives you scripture are you going to believe it?
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Atheism
Dec 1, 2012 15:17:57 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 1, 2012 15:17:57 GMT -5
Just curious, if he gives you scripture are you going to believe it? It doesn't matter whether I believe it or not.
If Lee states something is true & believes it is true, he should be able to back up his assertion by the document (scripture) he believes is accurate..
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Atheism
Dec 1, 2012 17:18:18 GMT -5
Post by Lee on Dec 1, 2012 17:18:18 GMT -5
I can usually pick out spotty arguments as well. Judeo-Christians hold that God created mankind male and female. . Cite scripture for thatWhat for? According to you scripture was invented by males for males.
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Atheism
Dec 1, 2012 17:20:47 GMT -5
Post by Lee on Dec 1, 2012 17:20:47 GMT -5
I can usually pick out spotty arguments as well. Judeo-Christians hold that God created mankind male and female. The prototypical primacy of the male is not a reproach of the female but an affirmation of the ontological and symbiotic unity of the species. and that BULL FECES argument is always used by men to keep women in subjection to them by other religions than your own.What hope is there for the salvation of men and women if sin not only entered the world through men but originated with them as well?
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Atheism
Dec 1, 2012 17:23:45 GMT -5
Post by Greg on Dec 1, 2012 17:23:45 GMT -5
Just curious, if he gives you scripture are you going to believe it? It doesn't matter whether I believe it or not.
If Lee states something is true & believes it is true, he should be able to back up his assertion by the document (scripture) he believes is accurate..I might have read something into your post. So, to back-up... You are asking with the assumption that the belief comes from scripture. And you are asking for scripture. Do atheists have or accept any written word as 'scripture'? Or perhaps you are simply using 'scripture' as a word that Lee understands/accepts. Basically, anyway, you are only asking for scripture/Bible reference that God made mankind both male and female but not whether God is and actually made mankind male and female. What's the word....academic?
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Atheism
Dec 1, 2012 18:23:16 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 1, 2012 18:23:16 GMT -5
What for? According to you scripture was invented by males for males. What for?
Because anytime someone, like youreself states something, you seem to think the rest of us should believe it without any proof.
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Atheism
Dec 1, 2012 18:47:14 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 1, 2012 18:47:14 GMT -5
It doesn't matter whether I believe it or not.
If Lee states something is true & believes it is true, he should be able to back up his assertion by the document (scripture) he believes is accurate.. I might have read something into your post. So, to back-up... You are asking with the assumption that the belief comes from scripture. And you are asking for scripture. Do atheists have or accept any written word as 'scripture'? Or perhaps you are simply using 'scripture' as a word that Lee understands/accepts. Basically, anyway, you are only asking for scripture/Bible reference that God made mankind both male and female but not whether God is and actually made mankind male and female. What's the word....academic? You are right.
Often when an atheist ask a question in the language* of someone who is a believer (in anything-Christian or what ever) & the atheist uses the language of the believer- such as I did in this case, Scripture- they are then accused of, "Why do you ask for that as evidence anyway since you don't believe it is true to start with?"
Now tell me how we are supposed to present the question to someone who has made a statement of what they believe & why they believe it, if not by asking them them for the source of their belief in their own language?
*the word "language" used in the broader sense.
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Atheism
Dec 1, 2012 18:51:51 GMT -5
Post by Done4now on Dec 1, 2012 18:51:51 GMT -5
I can usually pick out spotty arguments as well. Judeo-Christians hold that God created mankind male and female. . Cite scripture for thatit does seem odd that an atheist would want scripture for proof!
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Atheism
Dec 1, 2012 19:58:06 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 1, 2012 19:58:06 GMT -5
and that BULL FECES argument is always used by men to keep women in subjection to them by other religions than your own. What hope is there for the salvation of men and women if sin not only entered the world through men but originated with them as well? Aren't you forgetting that the title of this thread is atheism?
And That I'm an atheist?
And as such, I don't believe in a god that claims I have "sinned" & need "salvation"?
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Atheism
Dec 1, 2012 21:55:37 GMT -5
Post by emy on Dec 1, 2012 21:55:37 GMT -5
Let's just answer the question:
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
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Atheism
Dec 1, 2012 22:10:06 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 1, 2012 22:10:06 GMT -5
Rational, tell me story of Odysseus so I can compare with Matthew 17. I will let you know which one is a fairy tale or true event. I'll make it easy for you. Show me proof that the bible is not fiction.
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Atheism
Dec 1, 2012 22:10:17 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 1, 2012 22:10:17 GMT -5
Let's just answer the question: Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Thank you, emy! keep wondering why lee couldn't come up with that!
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Atheism
Dec 1, 2012 22:13:38 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 1, 2012 22:13:38 GMT -5
Let's just answer the question: Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.Compare with: Gen 2:21 - And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her to the man.
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Atheism
Dec 1, 2012 23:06:25 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 1, 2012 23:06:25 GMT -5
Let's just answer the question: Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.Compare with: Gen 2:21 - And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her to the man. Yep, that right. There is two versions of creation in Genesis.
Seems that not only god couldn't get it right the first time & had to redo it or his creation didn't record it right the first time & had to re-record it!
Oh my- fairly makes one dizzy.
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Atheism
Dec 1, 2012 23:14:26 GMT -5
Post by Greg on Dec 1, 2012 23:14:26 GMT -5
Let's just answer the question: Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Thank you, emy! keep wondering why lee couldn't come up with that!With regard to your response 220, did you really wonder why Lee did not respond?
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Atheism
Dec 1, 2012 23:38:12 GMT -5
Post by dlb5674 on Dec 1, 2012 23:38:12 GMT -5
Rational, tell me story of Odysseus so I can compare with Matthew 17. I will let you know which one is a fairy tale or true event. I'll make it easy for you. Show me proof that the bible is not fiction. Rational, on the other hand, show me proof that the bible IS fiction. I find it odd that atheists believe many historical documents but when it comes to scripture they claim it to be a myth. There are any number of historical individuals that you have no evidence existed (other than what man/woman has recorded) yet you may possibly accept them to have been real. Where do we draw the line between fact and fiction? Is this based on what we WANT to believe? You claim that those who believe in what is recorded in scripture believe in myth - yet I see no evidence provided by atheists to prove this. Some facts are more difficult to believe than fiction.
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