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Atheism
Dec 4, 2012 22:38:50 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 4, 2012 22:38:50 GMT -5
The squares labeled "A" and "B" are the same shade of grey. I have another one for you; ;D These two faces are the same But the difference is that your two objects cannot be shown to be the same and I can demonstrate that the two squares are the same shade of grey. Being able to back up your claims is fundamental to making your point.
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Atheism
Dec 4, 2012 23:04:23 GMT -5
Post by Lee on Dec 4, 2012 23:04:23 GMT -5
You have to understand first dlb5674, that the atheist has no argument for anything, only against. You have to remember that the atheist can only argue against whatever definition of your favorite paranormal being that you wish to put forth. Oddly enough, getting a theist to define their god is a difficult task. ever any specifics. Sort of like getting believers to describe heaven and what will be going on there for all of eternity and why it is desirable. Sounds like you would like to control the discussion and following your own agenda, brushing off questions you cannot answer. But if you want to discuss your paranormal being, define the entity and give your arguments as to why you believe s/he exists. Your entire response boils down to begging the question of whether the tree standing in front of us is real or not. The truth is that mankind is convinced he is real beyond his physical existence. And although he will vicariously satisfy himself with proxies ... sport teams or figures, the workers or what have you, the only question he ever actually asks is, Who am I? Don't kid yourself. His intelligence won't quit until he has the answer.
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Atheism
Dec 4, 2012 23:16:43 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 4, 2012 23:16:43 GMT -5
OK. but can you tell me why you feel the need to believe in a "higher power"?
And can you describe that "higher power"?
Do you think the "higher power" is a "normal" or "natural" power, however, just one we just haven't discovered yet?
Or do you believe the "higher power" is a power that sits outside of space & time- in other words not a part of the energy & material of our universe? Good questions dmmichgood. Let me ask you to consider a few things. Thought 1 - If you look in your driveway and see a car parked neatly in your driveway with the doors locked and no key in the ignition ( that you did not park there and does not belong to you) would you assume that it simply magically appeared or would you be inclined to believe that "someone" drove it into your driveway and parked it there? Thought 2 - Where did the energy and material of our universe come from? My point is....EVERYTHING that exists "should" have a point of origin - shouldn't it? If not, how do you propose things "came to be"? Mankind can only create something when he/she has something else to work with. I'm not completely convinced that we can make something out of nothing. But I'm open to evidence that would prove otherwise. When I was a kid I asked ...."OK, then where did God come from?" You see, I was asking that question even as a kid! But I still believe in an unexplainable higher power. #1) Not quite sure what you mean by this but I think you are telling me that some "power" made the car & "something" caused it to be in my driveway. That it didn't just magically appear & therefore neither did our universe, that there was a "power" behind the cause of each? Am I close?
#2) I don't know where the energy & material of our universe came from. However, I'm ok not knowing. I, myself, do not have to fill in any "gap" in my knowledge with any kind of "unexplainable power"!
(BTW, the putting some kind of "explanation" into that "gap" in knowledge is what the of "god of the gaps" means)
Now I could go on forever about ideas of why we feel that humankind needs to fill that gap with something but I'm too tired right now. Wish you could listen in on some long conversations my daughter & I have on that very topic.
#3) I understand your point- you feel that everything that exists should have a point of origin. You are not alone. Many feel the same.
Again, remember I said that after leaving the "Truth" I not only studied other religions but also the psychological needs of humankind.
Again, I'm tired-I'd like to leave the psychology aspect until tomorrow.
(Meantime, will you really take a good look at the questions I asked in my prior post and ask these questions of yourself?
Thanks, good nite!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2012 0:51:14 GMT -5
I'm back for more interesting discussion. I believe it was Matt10 that asked me for my view of things.... I asked a pretty simple question- WHY do you believe there is no higher power that has created all that we experience? Please note that many refer to this higher power as God. What brought you to this point? I am truly interested in understanding why. Matt10 attempted to answer this but still no real answer. I'm not sure that I've seen any evidence (proof) offered by atheists that there is NO higher power. I didn't ask you your view on 'things'. I asked you your view on the Bible. And I didn't attempt to answer the question about a higher power. My discussion with you to this point has solely been regarding the Bible. If you wish to discuss the existence of a higher power seriously then you really must focus on the discussion. This means following up points that were made. I have never claimed there to be no higher power. I have claimed that there is no Christian God and no evidence for the existence of the Christian God which is something entirely different. It may therefore be worth clarifying the following to ensure there is no confusion : Do you believe in the existence of the Christian God and what is the evidence to support your position? Matt10
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Post by rational on Dec 5, 2012 0:51:36 GMT -5
The squares labeled "A" and "B" are the same shade of grey. Your picture doesn't mean anything to me at all. Give me an image that Wow! my eyes to cause me to doubt the existence of God so bad that I want to become athetist like you, ghost, dmg, and Matthew10. Nathan, After I mentioned that I could show you images that would cause you to doubt what your eyes saw you said: I posted the image with squares labeled "A" and "B" that, to your eyes, look to be very different shades of grey. In reality they are the same shade of grey and, unlike the claims you have been making, my claim can be demonstrated. And unlike theists, I have no desire to have you, or anyone, convert to my way of thinking.
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Post by rational on Dec 5, 2012 0:58:17 GMT -5
Your entire response boils down to begging the question of whether the tree standing in front of us is real or not. That is another discussion. Again, this is what you believe but can you show that it is true? Again, your thoughts. If you don't look at man as being a creation of some paranormal being with the promise of something after death and some higher purpose a lot of these questions that you are attributing to others are of little consequence. People are looking for the answer to questions, no doubt. But "Why are we here?" is not a question that everyone is asking.
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Post by rational on Dec 5, 2012 1:23:43 GMT -5
Thought 1 - If you look in your driveway and see a car parked neatly in your driveway with the doors locked and no key in the ignition ( that you did not park there and does not belong to you) would you assume that it simply magically appeared or would you be inclined to believe that "someone" drove it into your driveway and parked it there? You are trying to relate the cause and effect you observe in everyday life with things that happen on a quantum level. On a quantum level there are events without cause, random happenings. The big bang provided the energy (and thus the matter) and space that makes up the universe. You might look into bosons and particle-antiparticle asymmetry to see one possibility. From your perspective, probably. But sometimes these 'origins' are very different from the ones you are familiar with. You can keep asking the question and I can keep pointing you to some of the current thinking. The Large Hadron Collider is being used to give a glimpse into the moments immediately following the big bang to verify current theories. Again, a different question. I am not sure what this proves. No one, as far as I know, is claiming that man created the universe. I don't think anyone is. There are a number of theories about how the energy/matter can into being. Particle physics is not an easy field to jump into. And where did you decide your god came from? OK.
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Post by rational on Dec 5, 2012 1:27:45 GMT -5
Your picture didn't make any sendr to me or make a believer out of me. [Did you actually read my first response to you? I am not trying to make a believer out of you. Just posting an image to demonstrate you cannot trust your eyes. The square labeled "A" is the same shade of grey as the square labeled "B". did you notice the shade of the squares? OK[/color]I can see now why you like to look at and listen to YouTube. [/quote]
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Post by rational on Dec 5, 2012 9:56:02 GMT -5
I looked at your picture, I got confused and dizzy in trying to figure it out what is going on. Too complicated lost my interest in figuring it out. Let's see. The image I posted was a 5x5 checkerboard with a regular cylinder sitting on it. Two simple objects. And to you it was confusing. An image of two common objects, a cylinder and a checkerboard, is about as simple as an image can be. Too complicated. Yet you listen to people telling you about reptilian beings living in underground bases and you suck that up without question. [/color][/quote]Well, you believe there are aliens living underground with bases and thousands of miles of evacuated underground tunnels, people who travel to Mars, and who knows what else. And now you are saying you don't believe everything you see on YouTube. I am having difficulty imagining anything more absurd then the ones you have posted. Do you have examples of some YouTube videos you think are not true?
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Atheism
Dec 5, 2012 10:19:42 GMT -5
Post by Lee on Dec 5, 2012 10:19:42 GMT -5
If you don't look at man as being a creation of some paranormal being with the promise of something after death and some higher purpose a lot of these questions that you are attributing to others are of little consequence. No, without a theory to accrete the particulars of existence they are of NO consequence. ..... As you determine your own powers of perception to be exhaustive so as to deny the existence of God, remember that you are self-imputing the qualities of God, a construct you otherwise deny. Know too that when you project that assumption upon your opponents in referring to their God as a paranormal being, you are deceptively enlisting us in your persuasion that our perspective is most normal and absolute. Speak for yourself! Atheism is a castle of deceit. Theism is the exercise of reflection.
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Atheism
Dec 5, 2012 10:38:45 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 5, 2012 10:38:45 GMT -5
No, without a theory to accrete the particulars of existence they are of NO consequence. OK. We live and die. I can accept that.Not quite. You have claimed the existence of god and have not presented any evidence to support your belief. Why would I look for something you believe exists if you cannot even present a definition? This sentence, to me, does not make sense. Are you saying your god is not a paranormal being? for whom else would I be speaking? I wonder how a castle can be built on the belief that objects/beings do not exist? Do you believe in a god? I, speaking only for myself, do not. In this discussion you have not shown any reason why I should. It seems to give you comfort and that is great for you. It is like you have an all powerful all knowing imaginary friend and you are can't understand why I don't want to play with your friend.
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Atheism
Dec 5, 2012 12:07:59 GMT -5
Post by jondough on Dec 5, 2012 12:07:59 GMT -5
rational (and any athiest that keeps asking for proof....)
Please provide me irrefutable proof that we are not dreaming right now. Or are we actually in a dream and just think (like we always do when we are dreaming) we are in reality?
Are we in a dream, or are we in reality? whichever it is, please provide me with evidence.
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Atheism
Dec 5, 2012 12:11:42 GMT -5
Post by guitar on Dec 5, 2012 12:11:42 GMT -5
rational is not making the claim that we are in either.
Ha ha I could be and athiest its easy...
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Atheism
Dec 5, 2012 14:40:42 GMT -5
Post by guitar on Dec 5, 2012 14:40:42 GMT -5
Nathan you are not helping the Athiest's at all. I love a good cospiriacy but some of these I would consider bad.
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Atheism
Dec 5, 2012 15:15:45 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 5, 2012 15:15:45 GMT -5
rational (and any athiest that keeps asking for proof....) Please provide me irrefutable proof that we are not dreaming right now. Or are we actually in a dream and just think (like we always do when we are dreaming) we are in reality? Are we in a dream, or are we in reality? whichever it is, please provide me with evidence. Explain why I would go to the effort to undertake that task? I have not made any of these claims. Are you making these claims? Or any claims? If that is the case it is up to you to provide the proof. In any case here is what Arthur Schopenhauer had to say about it in On the Suffering of the World: “Life can be regarded as a dream and death as the awakening from it: but it must be remembered that the personality, the individual, belongs to the dreaming and not to the awakened consciousness, which is why death appears to the individual as annihilation. In any event, death is not, from this point of view, to be considered a transition to a state completely new and foreign to us, but rather a return to one originally our own from which life has been only a brief absence.”
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Atheism
Dec 5, 2012 15:18:21 GMT -5
Post by guitar on Dec 5, 2012 15:18:21 GMT -5
I herby do proclaim that you are claiming to be an athiest. Prove to my why this is a valid claim, why doth your claim be superior to my claim of a living God. How be it that thy brain doth exist?
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Atheism
Dec 5, 2012 15:30:15 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 5, 2012 15:30:15 GMT -5
~~~ Rational, Here are more intersting stuff for you, to Ponder over. It is only interesting in the same way watching a rube get taken at carnival games is interesting.Believing in god should not made one an idiot. So you keep ranting without any verification. And, No, the people talking on YouTube are not proof. And they are here to probe people gentiles?You are aware that humans do not scale well and if there were one that made normal people seem like grasshoppers it could not support itself nor would its heart be able to circulate blood.
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Atheism
Dec 5, 2012 15:33:09 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 5, 2012 15:33:09 GMT -5
I herby do proclaim that you are claiming to be an athiest. Prove to my why this is a valid claim, why doth your claim be superior to my claim of a living God. How be it that thy brain doth exist? OK. The definition of an atheist is someone who does not believe in the existence of a deity or deities. I do not believe in the existence of a deity or deities. I am an atheist. Your claim is valid.
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Atheism
Dec 5, 2012 16:13:06 GMT -5
Post by jondough on Dec 5, 2012 16:13:06 GMT -5
rational (and any athiest that keeps asking for proof....) Please provide me irrefutable proof that we are not dreaming right now. Or are we actually in a dream and just think (like we always do when we are dreaming) we are in reality? Are we in a dream, or are we in reality? whichever it is, please provide me with evidence. Explain why I would go to the effort to undertake that task? I have not made any of these claims. Are you making these claims? Or any claims? If that is the case it is up to you to provide the proof. In any case here is what Arthur Schopenhauer had to say about it in On the Suffering of the World: “Life can be regarded as a dream and death as the awakening from it: but it must be remembered that the personality, the individual, belongs to the dreaming and not to the awakened consciousness, which is why death appears to the individual as annihilation. In any event, death is not, from this point of view, to be considered a transition to a state completely new and foreign to us, but rather a return to one originally our own from which life has been only a brief absence.”
If this is what you are subscribing to, then you are claiming that there is life after this short life/dream we are in right now. That, my friend is called life after death in our language.
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Atheism
Dec 5, 2012 16:16:57 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 5, 2012 16:16:57 GMT -5
I believe the 12 spies saw these giants before their eyes and comparing themselves as grasshoppers is TRUE and they were AFRAID but Caleb and Joshua didn't care how tall/Big in seize because they serving the LIVING God and these giants like little ants to God. OK Nathan - I will help you out. Here is an image you can offer as proof the next time this comes up:
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Atheism
Dec 5, 2012 16:22:49 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 5, 2012 16:22:49 GMT -5
Explain why I would go to the effort to undertake that task? I have not made any of these claims. Are you making these claims? Or any claims? If that is the case it is up to you to provide the proof. In any case here is what Arthur Schopenhauer had to say about it in On the Suffering of the World: “Life can be regarded as a dream and death as the awakening from it: but it must be remembered that the personality, the individual, belongs to the dreaming and not to the awakened consciousness, which is why death appears to the individual as annihilation. In any event, death is not, from this point of view, to be considered a transition to a state completely new and foreign to us, but rather a return to one originally our own from which life has been only a brief absence.”
If this is what you are subscribing to, then you are claiming that there is life after this short life/dream we are in right now. That, my friend is called life after death in our language. I don't recall saying this was my belief. I simply quoted Schopenhauer.
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Atheism
Dec 5, 2012 16:24:16 GMT -5
Post by guitar on Dec 5, 2012 16:24:16 GMT -5
I could have told you this was coming if you would have asked me.
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Atheism
Dec 5, 2012 16:44:53 GMT -5
Post by jondough on Dec 5, 2012 16:44:53 GMT -5
I could have told you this was coming if you would have asked me. I knew it as well. I've only been on this TMB for a little over a month. Starting to get to know some of the regulars here. One thing I'm figuring out about rational is that he LOVES to find wrong with ANYTHING anyone else post, whether its relevant or not. But he takes no stance. has no belief, other than to say everything we believe in wrong. His last post is a perfect example. I ask a question....he answers with someone else's quote, then says he never says he subscribes to his answer?? last time he commented on my post, it was because I said there was corruption in politics. He said there wasn't. When Dale called him on it....no answer... I wont go on, but the only thing i can say is that if someone has no stance or belief other than to say everyone else is wrong, looses credibility in my mind.
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Atheism
Dec 5, 2012 17:45:21 GMT -5
Post by guitar on Dec 5, 2012 17:45:21 GMT -5
Stand for something or fall for anything does not apply in this case.
He would say "I am not claiming that you are wrong." Just that he doesn't know if you are wrong or right. But he claims by claiming you are right you have to prove it.
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Atheism
Dec 5, 2012 17:59:39 GMT -5
Post by emy on Dec 5, 2012 17:59:39 GMT -5
Stand for something or fall for anything does not apply in this case. He would say "I am not claiming that you are wrong." Just that he doesn't know if you are wrong or right. But he claims by claiming you are right you have to prove it. True. I think you will not find Rational posting any information he cannot offer proof for. And he expects the same of others. Anecdotal proof does not count. Which may or may not be a good thing.
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Atheism
Dec 5, 2012 18:13:09 GMT -5
Post by guitar on Dec 5, 2012 18:13:09 GMT -5
I make a claim of faith. This is one nobody can prove.
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Atheism
Dec 5, 2012 18:14:57 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 5, 2012 18:14:57 GMT -5
Stand for something or fall for anything does not apply in this case. He would say "I am not claiming that you are wrong." Just that he doesn't know if you are wrong or right. But he claims by claiming you are right you have to prove it. Well, guitar, if I said this morning when I first woke up I saw my kitty cat dancing a tap dance on the bureau, & I absolutely believed what I saw really true, would you automatically believe that what I said I saw was true without any supporting evidence?
Wouldn't you want some bona fide evidence for it being true or would you just take take my word for it?
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Atheism
Dec 5, 2012 18:18:23 GMT -5
Post by guitar on Dec 5, 2012 18:18:23 GMT -5
No. I wouldn't care what your cat could do. I would likely not want to offend you if I seen you had this faith. Where it would matter is if your cat was dancing on my bureau. (what ever that is?)
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