|
Atheism
Dec 31, 2014 18:44:30 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 31, 2014 18:44:30 GMT -5
Ah, likely the name was Wipf or maybe not? Common Hutterite name. Alvin. It also designates which origon of the three branches of Hutterites Isn't absolutely amazing how a group can start out as only one more branch of Christianity, then branch and branch and keep on branching due to their different interpretations of the bible?
Guess that is what fuels the many different ideas here as well.
|
|
|
Atheism
Dec 31, 2014 18:53:03 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by slowtosee on Dec 31, 2014 18:53:03 GMT -5
I think it is the same in any group, faith or otherwise People are people. Alvin
|
|
|
Atheism
Dec 31, 2014 19:10:40 GMT -5
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 31, 2014 19:10:40 GMT -5
Just for the record, and I'm learning as we go, thanks, communists are not necessarily atheists , or vice versa of course. There are Christian Communists. We , myself anyhow, stereotype people . Usually, also, when we think of an atheist, we think non-religious. Stereotyping again, there are some very religous atheists, like Raelians. Generally, speaking, the majority of communists are not Christian and the majority of atheists are not religious, as far as I understand. No one label fits all. If that isn't confusing enough, check out atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/p/AtheistReligion.htm There are people who identify themselves as Christian Atheists. Lots of different individuals. Alvin -"Christian communism is a form of religious communism based on Christianity. It is a theological and political theory based upon the view that the teachings of Jesus Christ compel Christians to support communism as the ideal social system. Although there is no universal agreement on the exact date when Christian communism was founded, many Christian communists assert that evidence from the Bible suggests that the first Christians, including the Apostles, established their own small communist society in the years following Jesus' death and resurrection. As such, many advocates of Christian communism argue that it was taught by Jesus and practiced by the Apostles themselves. Christian communism can be seen as a radical form of Christian socialism. Christian communists may or may not agree with various parts of Marxism. They generally do not agree with the antireligious views held by secular Marxists, but do agree with many of the economic and existential aspects of Marxist theory, such as the idea that capitalism exploits the working class by extracting surplus value from the workers in the form of profits and that wage-labor is a tool of human alienation that promotes arbitrary and unjust authority" Thank you, Alvin. That is quite interesting.
It wouldn't be surprising to actually see a whole Christian Church based on the verse in Acts 2:44-45 : " And all that believed were together , and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. of the community "
It seems that is the only place that it is ever really presented in that context of holding "all things in common. " It would be interesting if we could find it continuing else where down through history but as far as I have read in the bible or elsewhere, I can't find it. (it might be inferred in Act 5:1 concerning Anani's & his wife Sapphira,- but only inferred)
So I'm wondering where people get the notion that capitalism is the Christian style of economy.
|
|
|
Atheism
Dec 31, 2014 19:23:12 GMT -5
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 31, 2014 19:23:12 GMT -5
Thanks for those links, xna. appreciated. Alvin Just to help "even" it out here, I think there are 13 countries where you can be killed for being an atheist. I think 12 of those countries are Islamic run. It is very easy to take for granted, the privilege we have of freedom of expression and religion, and we can be very very very thankful, every one of us who have that privilege to live in a country like that. Alvin Human beings seem to use whatever means it takes, religion, atheism, race, creed, you name it to promote themselves. ANY group I know has been guilty. Peaceful though the belief system might be promoted as, corrupt people use that as a tool for themselves. e.g.- Russia, North Korea are examples of atheism, there are LOTS of examples where Christians did the same. I think Burma is Buddhist country which should be very peaceful and harmonious etc. etc. I was somewhat connected to a group of people , from Burma, living in "the wild" in Malaysia, who told of experiences that would absolutely make you weep, like their infant child SHOT out of the mothers arms etc. they were hunted like wild animals. WHY WHY - they were the wrong religion. SICK SICK by SICK people using idealogy to promote and justify their wickedness. However, According to that link, North Korea is NOT an atheistic country! "A North Korean defector who lived in the country until she was 15 has described how she was brought up to believe that leader Kim Jong-il was “a god” who could read her thoughts."
Their god is Kim Jong-il & it is a dictatorship.
As to the Soviet Union of Russia, the government was NOT based on atheism! The government was based on Communism!
There is no reasoning behind trying to blame all the ills of a certain type of government on something like atheism! Time & time again I and others have pointed out that "atheism" is defined as a NON-belief, NOT a belief!
The reason the Christian world defined Communism as atheist is because in many countries the communist government dismantled religion's control of government and their massive hording of the nation's money. That's enough for many Christians to declare them atheist.
|
|
|
Atheism
Dec 31, 2014 20:07:28 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 31, 2014 20:07:28 GMT -5
Good video.
One of the comments afterward caught my attention:
"-----sometimes I think they (Christians) are almost jealous, that would fall in line with their chosen supposed supernatural deity ironically enough."
I have wondered myself at times if perhaps one of the reasons that some Christians dislike Atheists so much is really because they are envious.
|
|
|
Atheism
Dec 31, 2014 20:19:44 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by slowtosee on Dec 31, 2014 20:19:44 GMT -5
... whatever the excuse,too bad it took 60 to 100 million deaths, or whatever number, like Mao wrote "we have so many people, we can afford to lose a few"....and yes, maybe I am biased since the name Kroeker was on that long list.....if you were a landowner, period, it was enough evidence of riches to send you to the gulags.....what an archipelago that was ... Russian dance of death, My harp is turned to mourning, tThe gulag archipelago. Etc etc etc might give a clue why I don't exactly have deep appreciation for the "stuff" that happened there Alvin .... if anybody is at all interested..........a little background.... Feuerbach wanted to destroy all religious commitments and to encourage an intensive hatred towards the old God. All religious institutions needed to be eradicated from the earth and from the memory of coming generations, so that they would never again find power over people’s minds through their deception and promotion of fear from the mystical forces of God.[13] It was this thinking that the young Karl Marx was deeply attracted by, and Marx adopted much of Feuerbach’s thought into his own philosophical worldview. Marx considered that the higher goals of humanity would justify any radicalism, both intellectual as well as social/political radicalism in order to achieve its ends.....Furthermore, in his view, atheistic philosophy had liberated human beings from suppressing their natural potential and allowed for people to realize that they, rather than any supernatural force that required obedience, were the masters of reality. Marx’s opposition to religion was based especially upon this view in that he believed religion alienated humans from reality and held them back from their true potential. He therefore considered that religion needed to be removed from society..... The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.[20]
In this way he transformed Feuerbach’s attack on religion from a mainly philosophical critique into a call for physical action. He therefore held that atheism was the philosophical foundation stone of his ideology, but in itself was insufficient.
Communism begins from the outset (Owen) with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction.[21]
The intellectual atheism held by Feuerbach and others of his time, was transformed by Marx into a more sophisticated consideration and critique of material conditions responsible for religion
.....
|
|
|
Atheism
Dec 31, 2014 20:45:37 GMT -5
Post by snow on Dec 31, 2014 20:45:37 GMT -5
I found the Amish very interesting when we were travelling through Ohio and then again in southern Minnesota. The rules could change from one county to the next. In one they can ride bikes and in another they can't even put the big orange, slow vehicle sign on their buggies. Depends on the bishop it seems.
|
|
|
Post by xna on Dec 31, 2014 21:20:01 GMT -5
Good video.
One of the comments afterward caught my attention:
"-----sometimes I think they (Christians) are almost jealous, that would fall in line with their chosen supposed supernatural deity ironically enough."
I have wondered myself at times if perhaps one of the reasons that some Christians dislike Atheists so much is really because they are envious.
He has many interesting interviews on his podcast page. www.thethinkingatheist.comHe was raised by two religious college professors. His mother wrote a text book that continues being used today. I seem to know a few preacher kids who when they grew up are not religious. Here is his new years message www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=w_ChK-1chkU
|
|
|
Atheism
Dec 31, 2014 21:35:49 GMT -5
Post by snow on Dec 31, 2014 21:35:49 GMT -5
Good video.
One of the comments afterward caught my attention:
"-----sometimes I think they (Christians) are almost jealous, that would fall in line with their chosen supposed supernatural deity ironically enough."
I have wondered myself at times if perhaps one of the reasons that some Christians dislike Atheists so much is really because they are envious.
He has many interesting interviews on his podcast page. www.thethinkingatheist.comHe was raised by two religious college professors. His mother wrote a text book that continues being used today. I seem to know a few preacher kids who when they grew up are not religious. Here is his new years message www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=w_ChK-1chkUHave you watched the movie The Unbelievers? Lawrence Krauss and Richard Dawkins Science Tour. I haven't yet, but really want to. Have you seen this? It is really pretty good.
|
|
|
Atheism
Dec 31, 2014 21:57:51 GMT -5
Post by snow on Dec 31, 2014 21:57:51 GMT -5
Have you watched the movie The Unbelievers? Lawrence Krauss and Richard Dawkins Science Tour. I haven't yet, but really want to. ~Snow No I haven't. Have you? No, but I have heard it is on Netflix and amazon.
|
|
|
Post by xna on Dec 31, 2014 22:04:19 GMT -5
I found the Amish very interesting when we were travelling through Ohio and then again in southern Minnesota. The rules could change from one county to the next. In one they can ride bikes and in another they can't even put the big orange, slow vehicle sign on their buggies. Depends on the bishop it seems. The microclimate sect.
|
|
|
Atheism
Jan 6, 2015 22:31:43 GMT -5
Post by xna on Jan 6, 2015 22:31:43 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Jan 7, 2015 0:24:15 GMT -5
.... if anybody is at all interested..........a little background.... Feuerbach wanted to destroy all religious commitments and to encourage an intensive hatred towards the old God. All religious institutions needed to be eradicated from the earth and from the memory of coming generations, so that they would never again find power over people’s minds through their deception and promotion of fear from the mystical forces of God.[13] It was this thinking that the young Karl Marx was deeply attracted by, and Marx adopted much of Feuerbach’s thought into his own philosophical worldview. Marx considered that the higher goals of humanity would justify any radicalism, both intellectual as well as social/political radicalism in order to achieve its ends.....Furthermore, in his view, atheistic philosophy had liberated human beings from suppressing their natural potential and allowed for people to realize that they, rather than any supernatural force that required obedience, were the masters of reality. Marx’s opposition to religion was based especially upon this view in that he believed religion alienated humans from reality and held them back from their true potential. He therefore considered that religion needed to be removed from society..... The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.[20] In this way he transformed Feuerbach’s attack on religion from a mainly philosophical critique into a call for physical action. He therefore held that atheism was the philosophical foundation stone of his ideology, but in itself was insufficient. Communism begins from the outset (Owen) with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction.[21] The intellectual atheism held by Feuerbach and others of his time, was transformed by Marx into a more sophisticated consideration and critique of material conditions responsible for religion ..... What would you attach to the way that the early believers in Jesus lived by holding "all things in common?" Acts 2: 44-47 Acts 2:44-47New King James Version (NKJV)
44 "Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, 45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved."
Why did they live that way I wonder?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Jan 7, 2015 3:13:20 GMT -5
BTW, I thought that I check out the book that Ludwig Andreas von Feuerbach wrote, The Essence of Christianity, which provided a critique of Christianity which strongly influenced generations of later thinkers, including both Karl Marx and Frederich Engels.
I could find only one copy.
But at the price of $500.00, I think I'll pass!
|
|
|
Atheism
Jan 7, 2015 12:21:51 GMT -5
Post by snow on Jan 7, 2015 12:21:51 GMT -5
BTW, I thought that I check out the book that Ludwig Andreas von Feuerbach wrote, The Essence of Christianity, which provided a critique of Christianity which strongly influenced generations of later thinkers, including both Karl Marx and Frederich Engels.
I could find only one copy.
But at the price of $500.00, I think I'll pass!
Try a library. Even though your local library might not have it, they can do a special order and it might be found in a University library which will lend it to yours on a special lend. That's the way it works here in Canada anyway. I was able to get really old copies of books from Universities by doing that when I couldn't find them in the regular way.
|
|
|
Atheism
Jan 7, 2015 12:37:16 GMT -5
Post by slowtosee on Jan 7, 2015 12:37:16 GMT -5
BTW, I thought that I check out the book that Ludwig Andreas von Feuerbach wrote, The Essence of Christianity, which provided a critique of Christianity which strongly influenced generations of later thinkers, including both Karl Marx and Frederich Engels.
I could find only one copy.
But at the price of $500.00, I think I'll pass!
Hi, Looks like the book is available on amazon for about twenty bucks. It was written in German, so various translated texts available. www.amazon.ca/Essence-Christianity-Ludwig-Feuerbach/dp/0804461457/ref=sr_1_3/179-4338210-3074947?ie=UTF8&qid=1420651817&sr=8-3&keywords=essence+of+christianity After Feurbach, along came Marx , Lenin , and Stalin. Read "The Gulag Archipelago " by Solzenhitsyn to get an idea what some of the results were. The KJB tried assassaniting the author , as they did not want his story told. Alvin disclaimer - I have not read either book , only glimpses and parts of. More, listened to stories of and from people who were in Russia, and suffered unbelievably , because of idealogy of these men. Unbelievable, the inhumanity of humanity. Alvin en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn "There is nothing that so assists the awakening of omniscience within us as insistent thoughts about one's own transgressions, errors, mistakes. After the difficult cycles of such ponderings over many years, whenever I mentioned the heartlessness of our highest-ranking bureaucrats, the cruelty of our executioners, I remember myself in my Captain's shoulder boards and the forward march of my battery through East Prussia, enshrouded in fire, and I say: 'So were we any better?'"[
|
|
|
Atheism
Jan 7, 2015 13:01:36 GMT -5
Post by rational on Jan 7, 2015 13:01:36 GMT -5
Are these your beliefs or are you stating them as facts? In the news today "Behold, atheists' New Ten Commandment" 1. Be open-minded and be willing to alter your beliefs with new evidence. Christians believe this too. 2. Strive to understand what is most likely to be true, not to believe what you wish to be true. Christians believe this too. 3. The scientific method is the most reliable way of understanding the natural world. I would say scientific method is one of the ways of understanding the natural world. But there are many things that science cannot find answers for. 4. Every person has the right to control of their body. Christians believe this too.5. God is not necessary to be a good person or to live a full and meaningful life. I agree God is not necessary to be a good person but I do believe knowing that death is not the end gives a more meaningful life.
6. Be mindful of the consequences of all your actions and recognize that you must take responsibility for them. Absolutely Christians believe that. They believe we will be judged by our actions. 7. Treat others as you would want them to treat you, and can reasonably expect them to want to be treated. Think about their perspective. A Christian principle. 8. We have the responsibility to consider others, including future generations. A human concept whether Christian or not.9. There is no one right way to live. Of course we are all different. But there is right and there is wrong. There is a right way to live. A society without laws will lead to chaos and crime- not that there is not enough of that already. 10. Leave the world a better place than you found it. Christians believe that too. Can't see these as applying just to Atheists. Most are human principles not unique to a belief or non belief system. us.cnn.com/2014/12/19/living/atheist-10-commandments/index.html?sr=sharebar_facebook[/quote]
|
|
|
Atheism
Jan 9, 2015 21:24:47 GMT -5
Post by slowtosee on Jan 9, 2015 21:24:47 GMT -5
|
|
|
Atheism
Jan 9, 2015 22:47:27 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Jan 9, 2015 22:47:27 GMT -5
BTW, I thought that I check out the book that Ludwig Andreas von Feuerbach wrote, The Essence of Christianity, which provided a critique of Christianity which strongly influenced generations of later thinkers, including both Karl Marx and Frederich Engels.
I could find only one copy.
But at the price of $500.00, I think I'll pass!
Try a library. Even though your local library might not have it, they can do a special order and it might be found in a University library which will lend it to yours on a special lend. That's the way it works here in Canada anyway. I was able to get really old copies of books from Universities by doing that when I couldn't find them in the regular way. Thanks, snow.
I'll try that. I once did that for book by a young man who had known the 2x2's & wrote as his thesis about them. (can't remember his name or the name of his thesis) When I got it I could hardly believe they had sent the original typed manuscript!
|
|
|
Atheism
Jan 9, 2015 22:54:12 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Jan 9, 2015 22:54:12 GMT -5
BTW, I thought that I check out the book that Ludwig Andreas von Feuerbach wrote, The Essence of Christianity, which provided a critique of Christianity which strongly influenced generations of later thinkers, including both Karl Marx and Frederich Engels.
I could find only one copy.
But at the price of $500.00, I think I'll pass!
Hi, Looks like the book is available on amazon for about twenty bucks. It was written in German, so various translated texts available. Hey! thanks!
I wonder why I couldn't find it? Amazon is where I sell my own books and Abe's books listed only the one copy at $500. I must have goofed somewhere.
|
|
|
Atheism
Jan 9, 2015 23:03:45 GMT -5
Post by slowtosee on Jan 9, 2015 23:03:45 GMT -5
Hi, Looks like the book is available on amazon for about twenty bucks. It was written in German, so various translated texts available. Hey! thanks!
I wonder why I couldn't find it? Amazon is where I sell my own books and Abe's books listed only the one copy at $500. I must have goofed somewhere.
No problem. I've got goof ups down to an art almost, with a VERY high success rate. At least I'm good at something. Cheers Alvin edit - hey how come my post comes up with your blue print- proof positive I can goof better than you LOL
|
|
|
Post by xna on Jan 10, 2015 0:10:36 GMT -5
|
|
|
Atheism
Jan 10, 2015 11:03:52 GMT -5
Post by snow on Jan 10, 2015 11:03:52 GMT -5
Hi, Looks like the book is available on amazon for about twenty bucks. It was written in German, so various translated texts available. Hey! thanks!
I wonder why I couldn't find it? Amazon is where I sell my own books and Abe's books listed only the one copy at $500. I must have goofed somewhere.
I know, I absolutely love university libraries. You can find so much interesting stuff, including originals! Some you can't take out for obvious reasons but I'm like a kid in a candy shop in university libraries!
|
|
|
Post by xna on Jan 11, 2015 19:58:25 GMT -5
|
|
|
Atheism
Jan 12, 2015 11:29:43 GMT -5
Post by placid-void on Jan 12, 2015 11:29:43 GMT -5
Stumped. Yep, I am stumped. First let me thank you 'xna' for posting the three video. I have watch all three. One of them I watched twice. Perhaps I should first celebrate the diversity of perspective, worldview and opinion that is manifest here on TMB. But then I would like to share my feelings, having watched these three videos. I suspect that the feelings I will express are not unique but I am certain that they are not universal. I am not sure if there will be any value in describing my personal feelings, but I would like to see if expression of those feeling might lead to interesting or constructive conversation. By now, it is rather clear that my worldview and perspective differs is some respects from yours, 'xna', and from that of the speaker in the three videos. The three videos left me feeling bored, un-edified, empty. These are three rather strong words or concepts and I use them with trepidation because it is important to me that no one feels alienated or disrespected by my use of these three words. I take complete ownership of the three words and the subsequent explanations and impute none of the baggage associated with each word to any other person. Bored - I felt bored as I watched the three videos because the perspective offered by the speaker is fairly standard fare and rather broadly acknowledged by most individuals in Western culture as a worldview accepted by a growing proportion of the population. The rhetoric used by the speaker seemed repetitive to me almost as one would expect from the recitation of a catechism. Having watched the videos it is unclear to me if the message is intended to be evangelical or if it is intended as a personal testimony of convictions to a particular set of principles. It was clear to me that the speaker felt passionately about his topic and wanted me (a member of his audience) to know his convictions but I was unable to experience any empathy on the part of the speaker or any sense that he had any interest in the convictions of his audience. I can imagine some appeal of the videos to those already convicted as is the speaker but for me personally the videos would not work as a recruitment tool. Un-edified - I use here the following definition of edify: instruct or improve morally or intellectually. After watching the three videos I did not feel instructed or improved from either a moral or intellectual perspective. I was surprised by the absence of feeling on either of these two dimensions. I watched the video about the "5 questions" twice because of the three I would have expected this video to provide the most fodder for reflection but it really didn't for me. There are many ways to answer a question. One approach is to offer evidence/data and explain how they relate to the question. Another approach is to offer two or more alternative interpretations of the question and then provide a rational for selecting one interpretation or the other. In the video presented the speaker offers only his opinion on the selected topics. The approach struck me as superficial. Empty - This is the most personal feeling that I experienced. I experience the videos as a description of absence. The philosophical underpinning seems to be an embrace of absence. Somehow absence of proof is taken as proof of absence which I am unable to rationalize for myself. For all of the rhetoric about evidence, falsifiability, science and rational thinking, I experience these three videos as what Allan Bloom described as "The Closing of the American Mind". I will be interested in the P.O.V. of others regarding these videos. It may also be worth noting that the feelings I describe here are based on "zero-based reactions" by which I mean the feelings I describe are not relative to my feelings toward some other set of three videos, for example a set of three "Christian" videos. I suspect that my reactions to a set of three evangelical Christian videos would be very similar to that described above. As a point of comparison, I would offer almost any of Sam Harris's work (books, essays, videos) as interesting, engaging, thought provoking and edifying. Since reading "The Righteous Mind", I am also a big fan of Jonathan Haidt and his message of "inclusive engagement". After watching the three videos mentioned above, I found and watched this video: www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind?language=en and experienced none of the feelings describe above.
|
|
|
Atheism
Jan 12, 2015 12:18:18 GMT -5
Post by xna on Jan 12, 2015 12:18:18 GMT -5
Stumped. Yep, I am stumped. First let me thank you 'xna' for posting the three video. I have watch all three. One of them I watched twice. Perhaps I should first celebrate the diversity of perspective, worldview and opinion that is manifest here on TMB. But then I would like to share my feelings, having watched these three videos. I suspect that the feelings I will express are not unique but I am certain that they are not universal. I am not sure if there will be any value in describing my personal feelings, but I would like to see if expression of those feeling might lead to interesting or constructive conversation. Thanks for your comments. You should leave your comments on his youtube page. The nice thing about the market place of ideas is that there is something for everyone taste. I prefer all natural world view without the artificial flavoring, artificial coloring, and artificial preservatives of myths - just the real thing.
|
|
|
Atheism
Jan 12, 2015 14:51:31 GMT -5
Post by xna on Jan 12, 2015 14:51:31 GMT -5
|
|