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Atheism
Dec 19, 2012 19:44:44 GMT -5
Post by Gene on Dec 19, 2012 19:44:44 GMT -5
Atheism is an internally contradictory position for in seeking to deny the existence of God its practicioners must first assume the objectivity of God ... it is the epitomy of absurdity. Like scientists, it is theists who are advancing and testing their theories of God. Lee. Please. Start using English. If your prose is intended to confound and confuse, it's working. If you would like to communicate effectively with lesser mortals than yourself, learn to write. G
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Atheism
Dec 19, 2012 19:56:31 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 19, 2012 19:56:31 GMT -5
Atheism is an internally contradictory position for in seeking to deny the existence of God its practicioners must first assume the objectivity of God ... it is the epitomy of absurdity. Like scientists, it is theists who are advancing and testing their theories of God. Lee. Please. Start using English. If your prose is intended to confound and confuse, it's working. If you would like to communicate effectively with lesser mortals than yourself, learn to write. G Indeed I believe that is just what lee is doing, throwing around a bunch of words together that may sound "intellectual" but he wouldn't be able to state in "plain English" what he means if his life were to depend on it!
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Atheism
Dec 19, 2012 21:13:17 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 19, 2012 21:13:17 GMT -5
There is no reason why atheists assume the objectivity of god. Remember, without a belief in god I have to go by the definitions supplied by theists. Theists claim their god exists and often attribute things to their god that they can not prove. It is possible that both theists and atheists are testing and searching for some evidence of god. The difference is that theists believe their god exists without evidence and atheists are waiting for the evidence for the extraordinary claims made by theists. And yet, atheists will not indicate "what" evidence they are waiting for. Theists make the claim god exists. I am sure they would settle for reproducible and testable evidence that supports that claim. A definition would be a starting place. It is difficult to discuss things when the topic is uncertain.
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Atheism
Dec 19, 2012 21:19:44 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 19, 2012 21:19:44 GMT -5
Indeed I believe that is just what lee is doing, throwing around a bunch of words together that may sound "intellectual" but he wouldn't be able to state in "plain English" what he means if his life were to depend on it! That is not very kind. Let's assume that he has a great vocabulary and enjoys using words and definitions that are not used by many in their daily speech. Or he has found an online thesaurus. If the meaning is convoluted I find it best to ask for a retransmission in smaller/more common words.
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Atheism
Dec 20, 2012 5:26:47 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2012 5:26:47 GMT -5
Atheism is an internally contradictory position for in seeking to deny the existence of God its practicioners must first assume the objectivity of God ... it is the epitomy of absurdity. Like scientists, it is theists who are advancing and testing their theories of God. Lee. Please. Start using English. If your prose is intended to confound and confuse, it's working. If you would like to communicate effectively with lesser mortals than yourself, learn to write. G Alternatively, instead of asking him to step down to their level perhaps lesser mortals should step up to his level- promotion rather than demotion.
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Atheism
Dec 20, 2012 7:09:19 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 20, 2012 7:09:19 GMT -5
Alternatively, instead of asking him to step down to their level perhaps lesser mortals should step up to his level- promotion rather than demotion. I am not certain that gaining skills in confusion is a promotion. As the heterological phrase states, eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.
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Atheism
Dec 20, 2012 8:06:26 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2012 8:06:26 GMT -5
Alternatively, instead of asking him to step down to their level perhaps lesser mortals should step up to his level- promotion rather than demotion. I am not certain that gaining skills in confusion is a promotion. As the heterological phrase states, eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation. What, do you mean the sort of confusion like mistaking chalk for cheese?
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Atheism
Dec 20, 2012 14:57:07 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 20, 2012 14:57:07 GMT -5
Indeed I believe that is just what lee is doing, throwing around a bunch of words together that may sound "intellectual" but he wouldn't be able to state in "plain English" what he means if his life were to depend on it! That is not very kind. Let's assume that he has a great vocabulary and enjoys using words and definitions that are not used by many in their daily speech. Or he has found an online thesaurus. If the meaning is convoluted I find it best to ask for a retransmission in smaller/more common words. Yep, not very kind!
However, when he is asked for a more understandable rendition of a statement, he will answer in questions even less understandable than the statement!
As in the answer #572 to his post #551
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Atheism
Dec 21, 2012 0:13:48 GMT -5
Post by Lee on Dec 21, 2012 0:13:48 GMT -5
Depends if you're a theist or not. Not with the same assumptions or absence of them as the atheist does. Can you explain what the difference might be? To my recollection the theory of evolution doesn't revolve around whether there is a god or not. That's typically true of how homo sapien is being introduced to evolution by our government/scholastic intermediary. Curious people will always want to know why anything happens at all .... be it a case of evolution, or just why we feel sad. No, I don't. And I don't think the earth stopped spinning, reversed itself, stopped a second time, and then continues to rotate while the people stood calmly watching the shadow of the sundial. Well be it a fib or an actual event, the idea that God might even be rolling over in his grave on account of our sins is not beyond the stretch of anyone's imagination. I don't know anyone who has said the bible is all bunk. It certainly contains errors and some of the stories simply don't hold up when examined. So they were stories. How would you go about instantiating a theory of existence while sustaining those things your heart is inclined to believe are eternal? A myth is a theory of god and or of cosmology/existence. What are you trying to say? You seem to have defined myth very narrowly. myth1. a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature. 2. stories or matter of this kind. 3. any invented story, idea, or concept. 4. an imaginary or fictitious thing or person. 5. an unproved or false collective belief that is used to justify a social institution. What I am saying is that there are other myths that have much better historical support. Which ones, and what do they say homo sapien and his destiny? This is the TMB board, where any improvement upon the myth of the workers will correspond to ultimate issues.
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Atheism
Dec 21, 2012 0:37:16 GMT -5
Post by Lee on Dec 21, 2012 0:37:16 GMT -5
Atheism is an internally contradictory position for in seeking to deny the existence of God its practicioners must first assume the objectivity of God ... it is the epitomy of absurdity. Right. Unless you can claim to have the objectivity of God you can't deny God's existence with authority. And if you did have the objectivity of God, you would necessarily be God. Thus atheism is an impossible proposition. Like scientists, it is theists who are advancing and testing their theories of God. Right. The atheist is assured he will not be testing any theory of God except by some manner of default. Creationists are supposing by their lives and their prayers to be changing the immediate world, changing the world to come, or changing the status of their admission to some other world. Either way they are advancing and testing their varied theories of God.
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Atheism
Dec 22, 2012 19:33:53 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 22, 2012 19:33:53 GMT -5
Right. Unless you can claim to have the objectivity of God you can't deny God's existence with authority. And if you did have the objectivity of God, you would necessarily be God. Thus atheism is an impossible proposition. This is all only true if you believe there is a god. What makes you think god has objectivity? Or is that how you have defined your god? As it turns out, I do have the objectivity of god. And I claim that god does not exist. Can you prove otherwise?
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Atheism
Dec 22, 2012 23:06:34 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 22, 2012 23:06:34 GMT -5
Well be it a fib or an actual event, the idea that God might even be rolling over in his grave on account of our sins is not beyond the stretch of anyone's imagination. Oh, my! God is dead & rolling over in his grave???
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Atheism
Dec 23, 2012 19:15:49 GMT -5
Post by dlb5674 on Dec 23, 2012 19:15:49 GMT -5
"Atheists are simply people who do not believe in god or gods. How they access data and use it has nothing to do with their belief in paranormal beings". rat, and here I am believing all this time that they use it to promote their beliefs which deny the existence of paranormal beings, like Almighty God; but up to the present time they cannot offer any proof that God does not exist. Am I mistaken in my belief? I am not obligated to to prove to you that your god does not exist. You are not obligated to prove that gryphons do not exist. However, if you care define your god and claim that s/he does exist I will be glad to discuss the possibilities with you. I, on the other hand, will not be putting forth the claim that there are gryphons roaming the land. And, since I am not making that extraordinary claim, I will not be supporting it. rational, I find many of your comments to be unfounded. You want a specific definition of "god" and yet when others give you evidence of the existence of this "god" that you seem to need a definition for this is not suitable for you. Does gravity exist? Electricity? I assume that you believe in both yet you do not see either in and of itself. You only see the results or evidence of it. The "god"(if that is how you wish to define it) that I believe in has provided ample evidence of its' existence, YET you still ask for more evidence. I feel certain that even if you were given undisputable evidence you'd refuse to accept it. Your comments have led me to believe this. I'd say it's pointless to attempt to prove anything to you that YOU yourself do not believe in. Obviously you know more than anyone else.
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Atheism
Dec 24, 2012 1:18:21 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 24, 2012 1:18:21 GMT -5
I am not obligated to to prove to you that your god does not exist. You are not obligated to prove that gryphons do not exist. However, if you care define your god and claim that s/he does exist I will be glad to discuss the possibilities with you. I, on the other hand, will not be putting forth the claim that there are gryphons roaming the land. And, since I am not making that extraordinary claim, I will not be supporting it. rational, I find many of your comments to be unfounded. You want a specific definition of "god" and yet when others give you evidence of the existence of this "god" that you seem to need a definition for this is not suitable for you. Does gravity exist? Electricity? I assume that you believe in both yet you do not see either in and of itself. You only see the results or evidence of it. The "god"(if that is how you wish to define it) that I believe in has provided ample evidence of its' existence, YET you still ask for more evidence. I feel certain that even if you were given undisputable evidence you'd refuse to accept it. Your comments have led me to believe this. I'd say it's pointless to attempt to prove anything to you that YOU yourself do not believe in. Obviously you know more than anyone else. I'm answering as an atheist:
1) No, you have NOT given any evidence that "god" exists.
Just your saying there is a god doesn't qualify that he/she exists.
How does your insistence that your Christian god exists any different than if I said Thor is the god of thunder?
2) gravity & electricity exists & although I can't see them, I can see their results.
Any one here on earth can try flying without wings off a 30 story building will experience the results of gravity
3) Anyone who turns on a light switch (if all connections are intact & the bulb is working) will experience the light.
If I were touch a bare wire connected to an electric current I would FEEL the results.
4) I have yet to see, feel, hear, smell or taste your "ample" evidence of "god"
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Atheism
Dec 24, 2012 10:00:06 GMT -5
Post by Lee on Dec 24, 2012 10:00:06 GMT -5
Well be it a fib or an actual event, the idea that God might even be rolling over in his grave on account of our sins is not beyond the stretch of anyone's imagination. Oh, my! God is dead & rolling over in his grave??? That's what happened last time. Jesus rolled over and and rose right on out of his grave! It's a wonderful teaching that the soul of mankind might even be eternal!
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Atheism
Dec 24, 2012 10:22:43 GMT -5
Post by Lee on Dec 24, 2012 10:22:43 GMT -5
Right. Unless you can claim to have the objectivity of God you can't deny God's existence with authority. And if you did have the objectivity of God, you would necessarily be God. Thus atheism is an impossible proposition. This is all only true if you believe there is a god. Do you believe in truth, in an absolute state of things, in objectivity? Then you're believing in the same God I believe in. What makes you think god has objectivity? Or is that how you have defined your god? Any knowledge requires faith or belief. It's an essential characteristic of intelligence. As it turns out, I do have the objectivity of god. And I claim that god does not exist. But you don't have absolute objectivity. Your premise is intellectually untenable.
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Atheism
Dec 26, 2012 19:45:47 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2012 19:45:47 GMT -5
I received this one in an email. iIsuppose you can call it the parable of the geese.
An atheist asked the question :why did God want to be a man?
Yes why ? Please give this some thought. The following may be helpful.
The story begins on a snowy Christmas Eve: There was once a man who didn't believe in God, and he didn't hesitate to let others know how he felt about religion and religious holidays, li His wife, however, did believe, and she raised their children to also have faith in God and Jesus, despite his disparaging comments.
One snowy Christmas Eve, his wife was taking their children to a Christmas Eve service in the farm community in which they lived. She asked him to come, but he refused. "That story is nonsense!" he said. "Why would God lower Himself to come to Earth as a man? That's ridiculous!" So she and the children left, and he stayed home. A while later, the winds grew stronger and the snow turned into a blizzard. As the man looked out the window, all he saw was a blinding snowstorm. He sat down to relax before the fire for the evening. Then he heard a loud thump. Something had hit the window. Then another thump. He looked out, but couldn't see more than a few feet.
When the snow let up a little, he ventured outside to see what could have been beating on his window. In the field near his house he saw a flock of wild geese. Apparently they had been flying south for the winter when they got caught in the snowstorm and could not go on. They were lost and stranded on his farm, with no food or shelter. They just flapped their wings and flew around the field in low circles, blindly and aimlessly. A couple of them had flown into his window, it seemed. The man felt sorry for the geese and wanted to help them. The barn would be a great place for them to stay, he thought. It is warm and safe; surely they could spend the night and wait out the storm. So he walked over to the barn and opened the doors wide, then watched and waited, hoping they would notice the open barn and go inside. But the geese just fluttered around aimlessly and did not seem to notice the barn or realize what it could mean for them.
The man tried to get their attention, but that just seemed to scare them and they moved further away. He went into the house and came back out with some bread, broke it up, and made a breadcrumbs trail leading to the barn. They still didn't catch on. Now he was getting frustrated. He got behind them and tried to shoo them toward the barn, but they only got more scared and scattered in every direction except toward the barn. Nothing he did could get them to go into the barn where they would be warm and safe. "Why don't they follow me?!" he exclaimed. "Can't they see this is the only place where they can survive the storm?" He thought for a moment and realized that they just wouldn't follow a human. "If only I were a goose, then I could save them," he said out loud. Then he had an idea. He went into barn, got one of his own geese, and carried it in his arms as he circled around behind the flock of wild geese. He then released it. His goose flew through the flock and straight into the barn -- and one by one the other geese followed it to safety.
He stood silently for a moment as the words he had spoken a few minutes earlier replayed in his mind:
"If only I were a goose, then I could save them!"
Then he thought about what he had said to his wife earlier. "Why would God want to be like us? That's ridiculous!"
Suddenly it all made sense. That is what God had done.
We were like the geese -- blind, lost, perishing. God had His Son become like us so He could show us the way and save us.
That was the meaning of Christmas, he realized. As the winds and blinding snow died down, his soul became quiet and pondered this wonderful thought. Suddenly he understood what Christmas was all about, why Christ had come. Years of doubt and disbelief vanished like the passing storm. He fell to his knees in the snow, and prayed his first prayer:
"Thank You Jesus for coming in human form to show me the way out of the storm!"
Author of story unknown.
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Atheism
Dec 26, 2012 22:29:04 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 26, 2012 22:29:04 GMT -5
I received this one in an email. iIsuppose you can call it the parable of the geese. An atheist asked the question :why did God want to be a man? Yes why ? Please give this some thought. The following may be helpful. The story begins on a snowy Christmas Eve: There was once a man who didn't believe in God, and he didn't hesitate to let others know how he felt about religion and religious holidays, li His wife, however, did believe, and she raised their children to also have faith in God and Jesus, despite his disparaging comments. One snowy Christmas Eve, his wife was taking their children to a Christmas Eve service in the farm community in which they lived. She asked him to come, but he refused. "That story is nonsense!" he said. "Why would God lower Himself to come to Earth as a man? That's ridiculous!" So she and the children left, and he stayed home. A while later, the winds grew stronger and the snow turned into a blizzard. As the man looked out the window, all he saw was a blinding snowstorm. He sat down to relax before the fire for the evening. Then he heard a loud thump. Something had hit the window. Then another thump. He looked out, but couldn't see more than a few feet. When the snow let up a little, he ventured outside to see what could have been beating on his window. In the field near his house he saw a flock of wild geese. Apparently they had been flying south for the winter when they got caught in the snowstorm and could not go on. They were lost and stranded on his farm, with no food or shelter. They just flapped their wings and flew around the field in low circles, blindly and aimlessly. A couple of them had flown into his window, it seemed. The man felt sorry for the geese and wanted to help them. The barn would be a great place for them to stay, he thought. It is warm and safe; surely they could spend the night and wait out the storm. So he walked over to the barn and opened the doors wide, then watched and waited, hoping they would notice the open barn and go inside. But the geese just fluttered around aimlessly and did not seem to notice the barn or realize what it could mean for them. The man tried to get their attention, but that just seemed to scare them and they moved further away. He went into the house and came back out with some bread, broke it up, and made a breadcrumbs trail leading to the barn. They still didn't catch on. Now he was getting frustrated. He got behind them and tried to shoo them toward the barn, but they only got more scared and scattered in every direction except toward the barn. Nothing he did could get them to go into the barn where they would be warm and safe. "Why don't they follow me?!" he exclaimed. "Can't they see this is the only place where they can survive the storm?" He thought for a moment and realized that they just wouldn't follow a human. "If only I were a goose, then I could save them," he said out loud. Then he had an idea. He went into barn, got one of his own geese, and carried it in his arms as he circled around behind the flock of wild geese. He then released it. His goose flew through the flock and straight into the barn -- and one by one the other geese followed it to safety. He stood silently for a moment as the words he had spoken a few minutes earlier replayed in his mind: "If only I were a goose, then I could save them!" Then he thought about what he had said to his wife earlier. "Why would God want to be like us? That's ridiculous!" Suddenly it all made sense. That is what God had done. We were like the geese -- blind, lost, perishing. God had His Son become like us so He could show us the way and save us. That was the meaning of Christmas, he realized. As the winds and blinding snow died down, his soul became quiet and pondered this wonderful thought. Suddenly he understood what Christmas was all about, why Christ had come. Years of doubt and disbelief vanished like the passing storm. He fell to his knees in the snow, and prayed his first prayer: "Thank You Jesus for coming in human form to show me the way out of the storm!" Author of story unknown. Ah... so touching
And didn't prove anything ;D[
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Atheism
Dec 27, 2012 4:50:01 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2012 4:50:01 GMT -5
Ah... so touching
And didn't prove anything [ Oh give over! It proves one thing, that at least one atheist has his heart in the right place. ;D
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Atheism
Dec 27, 2012 9:15:46 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 27, 2012 9:15:46 GMT -5
rational, I find many of your comments to be unfounded. If you find this to be the case, ask me and I will generally provide backup for my comments. A definition and evidence are two different things. Defining god simply means that a discussion can move forward with everyone knowing the attributes of god - omnipotent? Omniscient? All loving? Able to answer prayers? Evidence of god should be in the form of reproducible, testable, falsifiable, measurable data. To date I have not seen any such evidence. Yes. And it is measurable and testable by anyone anywhere. Yes. And it can be independently measured and tested by people anywhere. I do believe in both. And I have conducted experiments with students that demonstrate their existence. Exactly. Gravity will act on a mass and the force can measured. I can force electrons (that cannot be seen) through a light bulb and see the results. And this experiment can be completed by anyone any where. The results can be measured and compared to the results of others. Not more, any evidence. I have a feeling that you cannot provide reproducible, testable evidence but only your beliefs. Perhaps you have not fully understood the meaning of evidence. It is pointless to attempt to prove something without evidence to back it up. No, I do not know more than anyone else and I make a lot of mistakes. But if you discover errors please point them out and I will correct and apologize for making them. It is how we learn. Examine the claims and evaluate the evidence. I hope this clears up the misunderstanding regarding what is and is not evidence.
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Atheism
Dec 27, 2012 9:20:07 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 27, 2012 9:20:07 GMT -5
Ah... so touching
And didn't prove anything [ Oh give over! It proves one thing, that at least one atheist has his heart in the right place. ;D [/quote]Herein lies the problem - you see a work of fiction as proof.
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Atheism
Dec 27, 2012 13:03:19 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2012 13:03:19 GMT -5
Ah... so touching
And didn't prove anything [ Oh give over! It proves one thing, that at least one atheist has his heart in the right place. ;D Herein lies the problem - you see a work of fiction as proof.[/quote] Unlike you I believe in God and in Jesus, and Jesus told many earthly stories (fictional?) with heavenly meaning; I think they are called parables. Do they prove anything? Well I am a follower of Jesus, He set the example for us to follow.
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Atheism
Dec 27, 2012 13:12:07 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2012 13:12:07 GMT -5
Been reading here a long while. Made no comment. Probably should continue that practice. However, I'm going to chance it. For me, when that huge fearsome creature appeared beside my bed with a horn of plenty around "its" shoulders opening out into a tray with every conceivable thing to meet my future needs when I was thinking there was just "no way;" NOBODY, atheist included, has any knowledge nor explanation for what I personally saw. NONE. Oh, people can make speculations, but they have absolutely no idea what I could have seen, except by belief that I gave an honest report of the occasion.
Now assuming you who claim not to believe anything without proof, what about the faithfulness of your spouse? Can you not even accept that based upon the love between you? Rat, you and dmg obviously both believe in doing "good." Now what causes you to live by that? No, don't answer, just wanted you to think about it. Yes, I believe. Yes you both claim not to believe. We both have all the proof we need to believe as we do, though differently. Gene believes differently than myself, and I differently than him. Yet I have reason to think as kindly of him as I do of you two.
Individuality is a marvelous thing. MY responsibility is to love my fellow man as unconditionally as I possibly can, and leave all the rest of what everyone believes up to them to deal with and consider. Rat, both you and dmg have revealed a side of yourselves to me privately that I've not seen clearly before. Thank you for that. Gene, I have seen such a side of you repeatedly, and not making any statements as to beyond the grave, I would love to have you all as friends, neighbors and fishing partners! Smile.
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Atheism
Dec 27, 2012 17:50:12 GMT -5
Post by Gene on Dec 27, 2012 17:50:12 GMT -5
Been reading here a long while. Made no comment. Probably should continue that practice. However, I'm going to chance it. For me, when that huge fearsome creature appeared beside my bed with a horn of plenty around "its" shoulders opening out into a tray with every conceivable thing to meet my future needs when I was thinking there was just "no way;" NOBODY, atheist included, has any knowledge nor explanation for what I personally saw. NONE. Oh, people can make speculations, but they have absolutely no idea what I could have seen, except by belief that I gave an honest report of the occasion. Now assuming you who claim not to believe anything without proof, what about the faithfulness of your spouse? Can you not even accept that based upon the love between you? Rat, you and dmg obviously both believe in doing "good." Now what causes you to live by that? No, don't answer, just wanted you to think about it. Yes, I believe. Yes you both claim not to believe. We both have all the proof we need to believe as we do, though differently. Gene believes differently than myself, and I differently than him. Yet I have reason to think as kindly of him as I do of you two. Individuality is a marvelous thing. MY responsibility is to love my fellow man as unconditionally as I possibly can, and leave all the rest of what everyone believes up to them to deal with and consider. Rat, both you and dmg have revealed a side of yourselves to me privately that I've not seen clearly before. Thank you for that. Gene, I have seen such a side of you repeatedly, and not making any statements as to beyond the grave, I would love to have you all as friends, neighbors and fishing partners! Smile. Thank you, Dennis, and I would love to have you as a friend, neighbor and fishing partner as well! If not in the flesh, at least in common spirit - G
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Atheism
Dec 28, 2012 0:19:09 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 28, 2012 0:19:09 GMT -5
Been reading here a long while. Made no comment. Probably should continue that practice. However, I'm going to chance it. For me, when that huge fearsome creature appeared beside my bed with a horn of plenty around "its" shoulders opening out into a tray with every conceivable thing to meet my future needs when I was thinking there was just "no way;" NOBODY, atheist included, has any knowledge nor explanation for what I personally saw. NONE. Oh, people can make speculations, but they have absolutely no idea what I could have seen, except by belief that I gave an honest report of the occasion. Now assuming you who claim not to believe anything without proof, what about the faithfulness of your spouse? Can you not even accept that based upon the love between you? Rat, you and dmg obviously both believe in doing "good." Now what causes you to live by that? No, don't answer, just wanted you to think about it. Yes, I believe. Yes you both claim not to believe. We both have all the proof we need to believe as we do, though differently. Gene believes differently than myself, and I differently than him. Yet I have reason to think as kindly of him as I do of you two. Individuality is a marvelous thing. MY responsibility is to love my fellow man as unconditionally as I possibly can, and leave all the rest of what everyone believes up to them to deal with and consider. Rat, both you and dmg have revealed a side of yourselves to me privately that I've not seen clearly before. Thank you for that. Gene, I have seen such a side of you repeatedly, and not making any statements as to beyond the grave, I would love to have you all as friends, neighbors and fishing partners! Smile. Thank you, my friend!
eh...but, well I hate to tell you, but I HATE fishing! That's all I hear form one of my sons!
any place I want to go- Rome? fishing in the Tiber! Scotland? Oh the trout fishing is good there! Alaska? Salmon. ;D
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Atheism
Dec 28, 2012 7:20:18 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 28, 2012 7:20:18 GMT -5
Been reading here a long while. Made no comment. Probably should continue that practice. However, I'm going to chance it. For me, when that huge fearsome creature appeared beside my bed with a horn of plenty around "its" shoulders opening out into a tray with every conceivable thing to meet my future needs when I was thinking there was just "no way;" NOBODY, atheist included, has any knowledge nor explanation for what I personally saw. This is not true. There are numerous explanations for hallucinations, both auditory and visual. And the patient I had who gave detailed descriptions of the lines and lines of marching elephants was as certain of what he saw as you seem to be. I do not know what you perceived and I do not know what he perceived other than what I was told. Dennis, as I have stated many times in the past belief is something that is accepted on faith without the need of proof. I believe my spouse is faithful. Can I prove it? No. It is a belief. Are you insinuating that I have not ever considered that before you mentioned it? What causes me to live by that is my moral code. A moral compass that has developed over time.OK. OK As I have said, belief does not require proof. I would find it difficult to imagine not thinking kindly of someone who held different beliefs than myself providing they are not imposing their beliefs on me. Sounds good. From my point of view - it is how humans interact. Heated discussions on a message board in no way change how I think about people.
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Atheism
Dec 28, 2012 11:03:08 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2012 11:03:08 GMT -5
Learning from YOU Rat, I ask, what are your credentials that you can have patients and practice medicine diagnosing others conditions? ARE you claiming to be an MD? How do you claim patients?"
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Atheism
Dec 28, 2012 11:48:06 GMT -5
Post by rational on Dec 28, 2012 11:48:06 GMT -5
Learning from YOU Rat, I ask, what are your credentials that you can have patients and practice medicine diagnosing others conditions? ARE you claiming to be an MD? How do you claim patients?" I have never claimed to be an MD. Before I got into the hard sciences I worked in a psychiatric institution with patients for 6 years. It is not a matter of diagnosing conditions. It is a matter of realizing that hallucinations, to the person perceiving them, are indistinguishable from reality. It is also knowing, as in the example I gave, that there were not lines of marching elephants. You said: "NOBODY, atheist included, has any knowledge nor explanation for what I personally saw. NONE." I stated that while no one knows exactly what you perceived unless you tell them, there are many known causes of hallucinations. And given the fact that you said you were in bed, there is the possibility it could have been either a hypnagogic or hypnopompic hallucination. They happen to a lot of people. If you believe that what you saw actually existed then that would raise a lot of other questions.
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