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Atheism
Dec 26, 2014 14:38:25 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 26, 2014 14:38:25 GMT -5
confused lady....believes in Christ yet doesn't believe in an after life then says "IF" there is an after life we have no notion of it? You are misunderstanding what the lady meant, wally
She isn't confused at all.
She believes that Christ as example of the way to live, by doing right toward other people.
The "IF" that she said is used as a supposition or hypothetical condition.
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Atheism
Dec 26, 2014 14:49:55 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 26, 2014 14:49:55 GMT -5
There is no reason why atheists assume the objectivity of god. Remember, without a belief in god I have to go by the definitions supplied by theists. Theists claim their god exists and often attribute things to their god that they can not prove. It is possible that both theists and atheists are testing and searching for some evidence of god. The difference is that theists believe their god exists without evidence and atheists are waiting for the evidence for the extraordinary claims made by theists. And yet, atheists will not indicate "what" evidence they are waiting for. I would have thought that was clear. Isn't it (as stated above) "the evidence for the extraordinary claims made by theists?"
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Post by snow on Dec 26, 2014 16:52:22 GMT -5
The 'Christ' is a concept that was around before Jesus. It was a consciousness to strive for in most understandings of it. Treating people with love, forgiveness is considered a 'Christ consciousness'. That doesn't mean that you believe Jesus was a God or that there is an afterlife. It means that Jesus was one of many who have reached an enlightened state that knows that love is what really matters. Unfortunately most of his disciples didn't really understand that concept fully so they started to interpret what he said in their own words and forgot that the Christ consciousness is not about having to do something in order to be saved, but to just be love.
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Atheism
Dec 28, 2014 19:54:45 GMT -5
Post by xna on Dec 28, 2014 19:54:45 GMT -5
Probably too harsh?
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Post by Gene on Dec 28, 2014 20:01:38 GMT -5
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Atheism
Dec 28, 2014 20:59:20 GMT -5
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 28, 2014 20:59:20 GMT -5
There is no Christian Bill of Rights, just commandments.
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Atheism
Dec 29, 2014 0:33:54 GMT -5
Post by slowtosee on Dec 29, 2014 0:33:54 GMT -5
Probably too harsh? I dunno. The Economist article suggests, the "tales" of atheism and religion have some things in common? "cracks in the atheist edifice" alvin www.economist.com/news/briefing/21629218-rapid-spread-christianity-forcing-official-rethink-religion-cracksView Attachment Christianity is hard to control in China, and getting harder all the time. It is spreading rapidly, and infiltrating the party’s own ranks. The line is blurring between house churches and official ones, and Christians are starting to emerge from hiding to play a more active part in society. The Communist Party has to find a new way to deal with all this. There is even talk that the party, the world’s largest explicitly atheist organisation, might follow its sister parties in Vietnam and Cuba and allow members to embrace a dogma other than—even higher than—that of Marx........."if we get full religious freedom, the church is finished......"
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Atheism
Dec 29, 2014 0:41:16 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 29, 2014 0:41:16 GMT -5
Nah, not too harsh! Quite right, really.
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Atheism
Dec 29, 2014 8:22:36 GMT -5
Post by xna on Dec 29, 2014 8:22:36 GMT -5
Probably too harsh? I dunno. The Economist article suggests, the "tales" of atheism and religion have some things in common? "cracks in the atheist edifice" alvin www.economist.com/news/briefing/21629218-rapid-spread-christianity-forcing-official-rethink-religion-cracks Christianity is hard to control in China, and getting harder all the time. It is spreading rapidly, and infiltrating the party’s own ranks. The line is blurring between house churches and official ones, and Christians are starting to emerge from hiding to play a more active part in society. The Communist Party has to find a new way to deal with all this. There is even talk that the party, the world’s largest explicitly atheist organisation, might follow its sister parties in Vietnam and Cuba and allow members to embrace a dogma other than—even higher than—that of Marx........."if we get full religious freedom, the church is finished......" China is interesting. It may look more like Korea than Japan. Worldwide Christianity market share is flat, but there is a shift from the old world towards Asia. I hope they get to freely choose.
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Atheism
Dec 29, 2014 11:26:16 GMT -5
Post by slowtosee on Dec 29, 2014 11:26:16 GMT -5
China is interesting. It may l ook more like Korea than Japan. Worldwide Christianity market share is flat, but there is a shift from the old world towards Asia. I hope they get to freely choose. I sure hope so too. I assume, of course you mean, South Korea and not North Korea. Some interesting observations about the positive and some not so positive effects of Christianity in South Korea, but surely all of us could agree, we would definitely prefer South Korea, over the route that North Korea went? Just a few observations from Wikipedia, how Christianity has influenced the country, but of course, there are people who truly believe that Christianity is against education, women's rights, equality etc etc etc. Many of them would prefer North Korea's position? Alvin The influence on education has been decisive as Christians started 293 schools and 40 universities including 3 of the top 5 academic institutions.[8] Protestantism is seen as the religion of the middle class, youth, intellectuals, and urbanites, and has been central to South Korea's pursuit of modernity and emulation of the United States.[9][10] In recent years, the growth of Protestantism has slowed, however, perhaps due to scandals involving church leadership and conflict among various sects, as well as what some perceive as overly-zealous missionary work Many Korean Christians believe that their values have had a positive effect on various social relationships. Traditional Korean society was hierarchically arranged according to Confucian principles under the semi-divine emperor. Women had no social rights,[24] children were totally subservient to their parents,[25] and individuals had no rights except as defined by the overall social system. This structure was challenged by the Christian teaching that all human beings are created in the image of God and thus that every one of them is equal and has essential worth.[26] According to Kim Han-sik, this concept also supported the idea of property being owned by individuals rather than by families (or by the heads of families).
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Atheism
Dec 29, 2014 12:14:23 GMT -5
Post by xna on Dec 29, 2014 12:14:23 GMT -5
I sure hope so too. I assume, of course you mean, South Korea and not North Korea. Yes, I was speaking only about South Korea. As for North Korea... it's 100% religious. A friend who knows that part of the world well and has met Kim, says Kim was their god, the supreme supernatural leader. All worshiped him. When Kim was born they say a new star lit up the sky, the seasons changed from winter to spring, a rainbow told of his birth. yada, yada, yada,.... sounds like something I have heard before.
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Atheism
Dec 29, 2014 14:34:37 GMT -5
Post by slowtosee on Dec 29, 2014 14:34:37 GMT -5
I sure hope so too. I assume, of course you mean, South Korea and not North Korea. Yes, I was speaking only about South Korea. As for North Korea... it's 100% religious. A friend who knows that part of the world well and has met Kim, says Kim was their god, the supreme supernatural leader. All worshiped him. When Kim was born they say a new star lit up the sky, the seasons changed from winter to spring, a rainbow told of his birth. yada, yada, yada,.... sounds like something I have heard before. I understand North Korea to officially be an atheist state? Of course , that doesn't exclude mandatory "worship" of it's leader. Alvin " State atheism is the official promotion of atheism by a government. In contrast, a secular state purports to be officially neutral in matters of religion, supporting neither religion nor irreligion. State atheism may refer to a government's anti-clericalism, which opposes religious institutional power and influence in all aspects of public and political life, including the involvement of religion in the everyday life of the citizen." edit- Russia has been down the same trail. When the Soviet Union was established by the Bolsheviks in 1922, it was the constitutional organization which took over from the Russian Empire. At the time of the 1917 Revolution, the Russian Orthodox Church was deeply integrated into the autocratic state enjoying official status. This was a significant factor that contributed to the Bolshevik attitude to religion and the steps they took to control it.[1] Thus the USSR became the first state to have, as an ideological objective, the elimination of religion[2] and its replacement with universal atheism.[3][4] The communist regime confiscated religious property, ridiculed religion, harassed believers, and propagated atheism in schools.
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Atheism
Dec 29, 2014 14:55:54 GMT -5
Post by xna on Dec 29, 2014 14:55:54 GMT -5
Yes, I was speaking only about South Korea. As for North Korea... it's 100% religious. A friend who knows that part of the world well and has met Kim, says Kim was their god, the supreme supernatural leader. All worshiped him. When Kim was born they say a new star lit up the sky, the seasons changed from winter to spring, a rainbow told of his birth. yada, yada, yada,.... sounds like something I have heard before. I understand North Korea to officially be an atheist state? Of course , that doesn't exclude mandatory "worship" of it's leader. Alvin " State atheism is the official promotion of atheism by a government. In contrast, a secular state purports to be officially neutral in matters of religion, supporting neither religion nor irreligion. State atheism may refer to a government's anti-clericalism, which opposes religious institutional power and influence in all aspects of public and political life, including the involvement of religion in the everyday life of the citizen." www.independent.co.uk/news/north-korean-defector-says-she-believed-kim-jongil-was-a-god-who-could-read-her-mind-9251983.htmlwww.cnn.com/2014/11/06/world/asia/north-korea-bodyguard-kim-jong-il/
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Post by slowtosee on Dec 29, 2014 15:02:39 GMT -5
Thanks for those links, xna. appreciated. Alvin
Just to help "even" it out here, I think there are 13 countries where you can be killed for being an atheist. I think 12 of those countries are Islamic run. It is very easy to take for granted, the privilege we have of freedom of expression and religion, and we can be very very very thankful, every one of us who have that privilege to live in a country like that. Alvin
Human beings seem to use whatever means it takes, religion, atheism, race, creed, you name it to promote themselves. ANY group I know has been guilty. Peaceful though the belief system might be promoted as, corrupt people use that as a tool for themselves. e.g.- Russia, North Korea are examples of atheism, there are LOTS of examples where Christians did the same. I think Burma is Buddhist country which should be very peaceful and harmonious etc. etc. I was somewhat connected to a group of people , from Burma, living in "the wild" in Malaysia, who told of experiences that would absolutely make you weep, like their infant child SHOT out of the mothers arms etc. they were hunted like wild animals. WHY WHY - they were the wrong religion. SICK SICK by SICK people using idealogy to promote and justify their wickedness.
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Atheism
Dec 29, 2014 16:17:32 GMT -5
Post by snow on Dec 29, 2014 16:17:32 GMT -5
Thanks for those links, xna. appreciated. Alvin Just to help "even" it out here, I think there are 13 countries where you can be killed for being an atheist. I think 12 of those countries are Islamic run. It is very easy to take for granted, the privilege we have of freedom of expression and religion, and we can be very very very thankful, every one of us who have that privilege to live in a country like that. Alvin Human beings seem to use whatever means it takes, religion, atheism, race, creed, you name it to promote themselves. ANY group I know has been guilty. Peaceful though the belief system might be promoted as, corrupt people use that as a tool for themselves. e.g.- Russia, North Korea are examples of atheism, there are LOTS of examples where Christians did the same. I think Burma is Buddhist country which should be very peaceful and harmonious etc. etc. I was somewhat connected to a group of people , from Burma, living in "the wild" in Malaysia, who told of experiences that would absolutely make you weep, like their infant child SHOT out of the mothers arms etc. they were hunted like wild animals. WHY WHY - they were the wrong religion. SICK SICK by SICK people using idealogy to promote and justify their wickedness. That is one of the reasons that I don't believe God has anything to do with people being good. It seems to be more how an individual interprets things, their attitude towards life and others etc than any religious creed. One will use it to be an example that they want to follow to live a better more loving life and another will use the same creed to be an example of the exact opposite, killing and hatred, all in the name of their particular religious belief and God.
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Post by slowtosee on Dec 29, 2014 16:25:47 GMT -5
Thanks for those links, xna. appreciated. Alvin Just to help "even" it out here, I think there are 13 countries where you can be killed for being an atheist. I think 12 of those countries are Islamic run. It is very easy to take for granted, the privilege we have of freedom of expression and religion, and we can be very very very thankful, every one of us who have that privilege to live in a country like that. Alvin Human beings seem to use whatever means it takes, religion, atheism, race, creed, you name it to promote themselves. ANY group I know has been guilty. Peaceful though the belief system might be promoted as, corrupt people use that as a tool for themselves. e.g.- Russia, North Korea are examples of atheism, there are LOTS of examples where Christians did the same. I think Burma is Buddhist country which should be very peaceful and harmonious etc. etc. I was somewhat connected to a group of people , from Burma, living in "the wild" in Malaysia, who told of experiences that would absolutely make you weep, like their infant child SHOT out of the mothers arms etc. they were hunted like wild animals. WHY WHY - they were the wrong religion. SICK SICK by SICK people using idealogy to promote and justify their wickedness. That is one of the reasons that I don't believe God has anything to do with people being good. It seems to be more how an individual interprets things, their attitude towards life and others etc than any religious creed. One will use it to be an example that they want to follow to live a better more loving life and another will use the same creed to be an example of the exact opposite, killing and hatred, all in the name of their particular religious belief and God. Snow, I really appreciated your post the other day where you said and I paraphrase probably badly but the message I got and thought it very wise was - If the Bible makes you or encourages you to do BAD things, then ignore it and put it away. If Jesus teachings are followed you will be a loving person." Alvin
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Atheism
Dec 29, 2014 16:33:20 GMT -5
Post by snow on Dec 29, 2014 16:33:20 GMT -5
That is one of the reasons that I don't believe God has anything to do with people being good. It seems to be more how an individual interprets things, their attitude towards life and others etc than any religious creed. One will use it to be an example that they want to follow to live a better more loving life and another will use the same creed to be an example of the exact opposite, killing and hatred, all in the name of their particular religious belief and God. Snow, I really appreciated your post the other day where you said and I paraphrase probably badly but the message I got and thought it very wise was - If the Bible makes you or encourages you to do BAD things, then ignore it and put it away. If Jesus teachings are followed you will be a loving person." Alvin I think that can be the guideline to base things on. If it makes you more loving live it, if it doesn't, ignore it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Atheism
Dec 29, 2014 16:37:32 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2014 16:37:32 GMT -5
What specifically in the bible encourages you to do "bad" things?
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Atheism
Dec 29, 2014 16:39:35 GMT -5
Post by xna on Dec 29, 2014 16:39:35 GMT -5
What specifically in the bible encourages you to do "bad" things? Don't you know your are born bad and need fixed to be any good.
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Atheism
Dec 29, 2014 16:40:51 GMT -5
Post by slowtosee on Dec 29, 2014 16:40:51 GMT -5
Good question, Bert. I don't have good answer . Alvin
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Atheism
Dec 29, 2014 16:42:22 GMT -5
xna likes this
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 29, 2014 16:42:22 GMT -5
Thanks for those links, xna. appreciated. Alvin Just to help "even" it out here, I think there are 13 countries where you can be killed for being an atheist. I think 12 of those countries are Islamic run. It is very easy to take for granted, the privilege we have of freedom of expression and religion, and we can be very very very thankful, every one of us who have that privilege to live in a country like that. Alvin Human beings seem to use whatever means it takes, religion, atheism, race, creed, you name it to promote themselves. ANY group I know has been guilty. Peaceful though the belief system might be promoted as, corrupt people use that as a tool for themselves. e.g.- Russia, North Korea are examples of atheism, there are LOTS of examples where Christians did the same. I think Burma is Buddhist country which should be very peaceful and harmonious etc. etc. I was somewhat connected to a group of people , from Burma, living in "the wild" in Malaysia, who told of experiences that would absolutely make you weep, like their infant child SHOT out of the mothers arms etc. they were hunted like wild animals. WHY WHY - they were the wrong religion. SICK SICK by SICK people using idealogy to promote and justify their wickedness. However, According to that link, North Korea is NOT an atheistic country! "A North Korean defector who lived in the country until she was 15 has described how she was brought up to believe that leader Kim Jong-il was “a god” who could read her thoughts."
Their god is Kim Jong-il & it is a dictatorship.
As to the Soviet Union of Russia, the government was NOT based on atheism! The government was based on Communism!
There is no reasoning behind trying to blame all the ills of a certain type of government on something like atheism! Time & time again I and others have pointed out that "atheism" is defined as a NON-belief, NOT a belief!
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Atheism
Dec 29, 2014 16:54:44 GMT -5
Post by xna on Dec 29, 2014 16:54:44 GMT -5
Thanks for those links, xna. appreciated. Alvin Just to help "even" it out here, I think there are 13 countries where you can be killed for being an atheist. I think 12 of those countries are Islamic run. It is very easy to take for granted, the privilege we have of freedom of expression and religion, and we can be very very very thankful, every one of us who have that privilege to live in a country like that. Alvin Human beings seem to use whatever means it takes, religion, atheism, race, creed, you name it to promote themselves. ANY group I know has been guilty. Peaceful though the belief system might be promoted as, corrupt people use that as a tool for themselves. e.g.- Russia, North Korea are examples of atheism, there are LOTS of examples where Christians did the same. I think Burma is Buddhist country which should be very peaceful and harmonious etc. etc. I was somewhat connected to a group of people , from Burma, living in "the wild" in Malaysia, who told of experiences that would absolutely make you weep, like their infant child SHOT out of the mothers arms etc. they were hunted like wild animals. WHY WHY - they were the wrong religion. SICK SICK by SICK people using idealogy to promote and justify their wickedness. However, According to that link, North Korea is NOT an atheistic country! "A North Korean defector who lived in the country until she was 15 has described how she was brought up to believe that leader Kim Jong-il was “a god” who could read her thoughts."
Their god is Kim Jong-il & it is a dictatorship.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea's_cult_of_personality "North Korean authorities have co-opted portions of Christianity and Buddhism,[17] and adopted them to their own uses, while greatly restricting all religions in general as they are seen as a threat to the regime.[18][19] An example of this can be seen in the description of Kim Il-sung as a god,[20] and Kim Jong-il as the son of a god or "Sun of the Nation",[21] evoking the father-son imagery of Christianity.[20] According to author Victor Cha, during the first part of Kim Il-sung's rule, the state destroyed over 2,000 Buddhist temples and Christian churches which might detract from fidelity to Kim.[22]:73 There is even widespread belief that Kim-il Sung "created the world" and that Kim Jong-il controlled the weather.[23] Korean society, traditionally Confucian, places a strong emphasis on paternal hierarchy and loyalty. "Their god is Kim. No god is atheism. Don't believe in KIM? You will die.
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Atheism
Dec 29, 2014 17:19:03 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by slowtosee on Dec 29, 2014 17:19:03 GMT -5
Are you attempting to suggest that atheism has ZERO responsibility in anything BAD that happened in Russia or any other self proclaimed atheist state? Alvin
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Atheism
Dec 29, 2014 17:23:23 GMT -5
Post by xna on Dec 29, 2014 17:23:23 GMT -5
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg
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Atheism
Dec 29, 2014 17:34:42 GMT -5
Post by slowtosee on Dec 29, 2014 17:34:42 GMT -5
I'm not sure if that is a yes or no. I presume it is no, meaning atheism is responsible for NOTHING bad- period. If an atheist did "evil things", he will have to be labeled "religious", somehow. Coooool I've heard the same rationale, from religious people, that when one of their own did evil, oh, that must have been an atheist , not a true blah blah blah...... so that exempts me from responsibility of any sort. It is always the other group . "we" are okay. I appreciate the pope doing some self examination of his own group and he is of course meeting with lots of opposition, no, it is not us , it's them. Alvin
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Post by xna on Dec 29, 2014 17:36:24 GMT -5
I'm not sure if that is a yes or no. I presume it is no, meaning atheism is responsible for NOTHING bad- period. If an atheist did "evil things", he will have to be labeled "religious", somehow. Coooool Alvin My take is; everyone one can and has done good, and everyone can and has done bad.
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Atheism
Dec 29, 2014 17:45:04 GMT -5
xna likes this
Post by slowtosee on Dec 29, 2014 17:45:04 GMT -5
I'm not sure if that is a yes or no. I presume it is no, meaning atheism is responsible for NOTHING bad- period. If an atheist did "evil things", he will have to be labeled "religious", somehow. Coooool Alvin My take is; everyone one can and has done good, and everyone can and has done bad. And all the people said , at least mostly all, LOL, AMEN
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Post by xna on Dec 29, 2014 18:00:50 GMT -5
My take is; everyone one can and has done good, and everyone can and has done bad. And all the people said , at least mostly all, LOL, AMEN I'm glad your post was #666 in this thread. I was afraid to go next
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