|
Post by eyedeetentee on Feb 14, 2010 15:11:17 GMT -5
"The non-pc truth is that he's larger and stronger than me and we are alone in a place where no one would hear anything. From what I can tell, many men do not think about safety the same way that women do. It is a daily nearly automatic response for women to be alert."
That explains Clearday's position on all this - he has more estrogen than testosterone flowing through his genes.
Some people want more testosterone flowing through their jeans.
|
|
shiloh
Senior Member
Posts: 723
|
Post by shiloh on Feb 15, 2010 12:56:57 GMT -5
American children today want to be left alone. Even non-sexual touching is a violation of their privacy. In India kids will cling on adults like a tick. But not so in post-industrial societies. We have to respect our culture. Growing up a man used to visit our home and he was big into grabbing, smacking etc.. Back in the 1970s it was less of an issue. I dreaded this half crazy guy. I would even run and hide from him. He never professed or knew of the Truth but his behavior was upsetting. I always liked my personal space. Some kids do. And if a kid seems shy and withdrawn, DO NOT VIOLATE THEIR PERSONAL SPACE AND DESIRE FOR DISTANCE......
|
|
|
Post by degem on Feb 15, 2010 13:07:10 GMT -5
I have always liked my personal space too, shiloh. I think that is true of many people, young,inbetween, old whatever the age may be
|
|
shiloh
Senior Member
Posts: 723
|
Post by shiloh on Feb 15, 2010 13:12:13 GMT -5
It is an American thing I guess. I have seen people who will get within a foot of your face when speaking. I like to keep people at arm's length unless I am showing them something. If there is a reason, coming closer doesn't bother me.
I hear on buses in Calcutta and Bombay, kids and grown people will sleep on your lap. You might see someone put their head on your legs and fall asleep. If you had grown up in that culture, it wouldn't be an issue.
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Feb 15, 2010 13:50:02 GMT -5
read the statement again..." A near miss" The Father's child separated herself before the act could be considered "reportable" and why if you have a "near miss" would one want to subject the child to such investigations when there is nothing to investigate though the perp had been known in the distant past ot have committed such lewd behaviour? It would come down to harassing the child and simply ended up a false allegation, don't you think? Either the parent thought the child was in danger or the parent did not. If, as a parent, you believe there is a person, in this case a person who, according to you, was known to have committed lewd behavior in the past. who posed a threat to children I do think they should have reported it. If they believed the threat was credible enough to gossip about it it is credible enough to report. If not, they are just spreading unfounded rumors. Do you really believe if a parent walks in on an adult about to initiate sexual behavior with a child but stops the person they should just let the person walk away? Of course if the 'near miss' was the adult smiling at the child and saying "Hello" then that is a different story. But if there was no danger then why try to tell other people? You are excusing the same behavior I see others in this thread complaining about concerning the workers. I am not defending the workers who do not report CSA to the authorities nor the father who allows someone who had a 'near miss' with his daughter, and knows about the person's deviant behavior, to not report it to the authorities. Rational, instead of trying to "correct" everything I say...it is my thought that IF you really have a true "care" toward what has happened and what could or should happen, go to this page and read this man's letters...There are several and you need to read them all to know what the man's experiences were. Then maybe you won't be so ready to say that such and such just has to be such and such. www.wingsfortruth.info/dalecombinedletters.pdf
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Feb 15, 2010 16:44:47 GMT -5
Hey, that's a thought-provoking question, fs? I think rituals like that do establish a comfort zone. Yes. And that makes you feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel safer. So if your massage therapist decided one day to run his hand up your leg and touch you sexually, you'd be all relaxed and completely unsuspecting. Yes, I agree that set patterns and such have there place. But consider... One of my favorite massage therapists is about a foot taller than I am, has stocky shoulders, well developed arms and has hand-to-hand combat training. Do you honestly believe that having a sheet over me is what keeps me safe? The non-pc truth is that he's larger and stronger than me and we are alone in a place where no one would hear anything. From what I can tell, many men do not think about safety the same way that women do. It is a daily nearly automatic response for women to be alert. That is often a guideline to protect the *adult.* So ... a worker alone should not be in the bedroom of a child. That guideline or "ritual" sets up a safety buffer for the child. As soon as you break the guideline the child already knows something is wrong. I think it is woefully naive to believe that bedrooms = sexual activity and that keeping people out of them creates safety. freespirit Fs, you seem to be conveying that since you cannot totally prevent abuse, all prevention is futile. Do you wear a safety belt when you drive?
|
|
|
Post by freespirit on Feb 15, 2010 17:25:39 GMT -5
Fs, you seem to be conveying that since you cannot totally prevent abuse, all prevention is futile. No, I haven't. Do you wear a safety belt when you drive? Since wearing a seatbelt doesn't prevent all car accidents, should everyone stay home, sit on the couch wearing SCBA equipment with full-body armor and never travel anywhere ever again? freespirit
|
|
|
Post by eyedeetentee on Feb 15, 2010 20:29:02 GMT -5
Why would I need scuba equipment? Is there going to be another flood? I'm always the last to find out these things.
|
|
White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
|
Post by White Knight on Feb 15, 2010 20:45:07 GMT -5
How can you tell if one is a true Child of the most HIGH? Or better still how far will one get in reading this, before one becomes inflamed? Some people use the Bible, like a woman using mascara, lipstick, eye shadow, etc, the beauty of a woman was never meant to be changed nor altered. Other people change the renderings to suite their own needs, like, manipulators that can’t get their way. They find another pond that they may be the big fish in, until another comes against and so on leading to an endless cycle, thusly leaving many in a state of delusional array. Some say the Bible is a ladder to Heaven, stand on it how far did it get you. While others still others proclaim it’s a rung on the ladder which rung were you on before it hung you? Better still stand the ladder up and secure it before trying to clime it, it’s no good on the ground walking on it. Few believe it’s a road map but then again few can read a map while others still depend on them. Still others say we don’t need a Bible we’ll simply get by, like a GPS I just program it and it’ll get me there, what if you run into a storm. .. Maybe a dead zone or your GPS crashes… better still the battery fails/dies. Or are we so use to being programmed we miss the point? How many have heard about the third heaven or what it’s really about? Yes we say there is a third HEAVEN and yours to share, if, one is really willing to find it. IT’s a little like the third eye but much bigger …. !
|
|
|
Post by freespirit on Feb 15, 2010 22:27:19 GMT -5
What:
How are you planning to prevent your massage therapist--whom you have come to know and trust and who has set up a comfort zone around you--from touching you inappropriately next time you are face-down, half-asleep, unsuspecting and relaxed on the massage table?
Just taking a guess here... but you probably aren't doing a blasted thing to prevent it. Probably you don't even think twice about it.
You aren't safe because of the comfort ritual... in fact, you are more vulnerable because of it.
So... should you never go get a massage again?
Just food for thought... freespirit
|
|
|
Post by rational on Feb 16, 2010 1:06:53 GMT -5
Rational, instead of trying to "correct" everything I say...it is my thought that IF you really have a true "care" toward what has happened and what could or should happen, go to this page and read this man's letters...There are several and you need to read them all to know what the man's experiences were. Then maybe you won't be so ready to say that such and such just has to be such and such. www.wingsfortruth.info/dalecombinedletters.pdfAre you suggesting that when your posts contain errors they should be ignored because ...? The goal, I thought, was to eliminate criminals who present a danger to children. If there is enough evidence to warn other parents about the danger an individual presents there is enough evidence to file a report with child protective services (or whatever the appropriate authority is in your state). If there is not enough evidence then telling other parents is gossip and has the potential of damaging another's life. The problem is that people know about a criminal who is hurting children and do not report it to the authorities. Then, when something happens, they stand and condemn others who did not act on their information. The solution is to educate people to report credible incidences of suspected criminal behavior to the appropriate authorities instead of just gossiping about them. As far as the reference you provided in WINGS - it is a perfect example of what should not be done to deal with and help eliminate criminal behavior. Are you also suggesting that I should not have questioned your use of enervation in your posts explaining the way that enervation controls the body?
|
|
|
Post by jason on Feb 16, 2010 4:30:02 GMT -5
Are you also suggesting that I should not have questioned your use of enervation in your posts explaining the way that enervation controls the body? Does it particularly matter?
|
|
|
Post by rational on Feb 16, 2010 5:58:37 GMT -5
Are you also suggesting that I should not have questioned your use of enervation in your posts explaining the way that enervation controls the body? Does it particularly matter? The incorrect use of the word may not matter at all to you. I feel it matters to the same degree as the post you questioned regarding sperm being located in the spinal column. When being lectured I question the incorrect use of words and phrases.
|
|
|
Post by jason on Feb 16, 2010 6:17:20 GMT -5
Does it particularly matter? The incorrect use of the word may not matter at all to you. I feel it matters to the same degree as the post you questioned regarding sperm being located in the spinal column. When being lectured I question the incorrect use of words and phrases. Your inclination to do this is well documented, but it does not necessarily, or logically, prove anything.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Feb 16, 2010 7:04:15 GMT -5
When being lectured I question the incorrect use of words and phrases. Your inclination to do this is well documented, but it does not necessarily, or logically, prove anything.[/quote] It is not an attempt to prove anything. It is an attempt to to separate facts from beliefs and correct the cases when the 'facts' presented are in error. If a licensed medical professional posted that the main function of the brain was to act as a cooling device for the blood (as Aristotle thought) and the heart was the center of intelligence wouldn't you respond with a correction or at least a request for supporting data?
|
|
|
Post by jason on Feb 16, 2010 7:53:47 GMT -5
If a licensed medical professional posted that the main function of the brain was to act as a cooling device for the blood (as Aristotle thought) and the heart was the center of intelligence wouldn't you respond with a correction or at least a request for supporting data? I acknowledge your point, but mistakes in written communication sometimes occur. I know (as you know) that Sharon was not using the term "ennervation" to (correctly) refer to a surgical proceedure, but rather to denote the activity of the nerves. That much is borne from context, and I did not see much cause to belabour the point. On the other hand, the bit about sperm was an instance of me being facetiously pedantic. I found the idea of my gametes swimming up and down my spinal tissues to be rather amusing.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Feb 16, 2010 8:10:38 GMT -5
It is an American thing I guess. I have seen people who will get within a foot of your face when speaking. I like to keep people at arm's length unless I am showing them something. If there is a reason, coming closer doesn't bother me. Personal space is a cultural issue. I do not think it is an American thing. In fact, North Americans and Northern Europeans adopt conversational space of about 2 1/2 to 3 feet. Close enough to shake hands. Southern Europeans and Latin Americans stand a little closer and in the Middle East people may stand less than a foot apart. In places where people tend to bow in greeting, the conversational distance may be as much as 3 feet. Asians often feel Americans are standing too close. The study of spatial distances between individuals is known as proxemics. You can do a lot of little tests on an elevator. In a partially filled elevator, stand facing the crowd instead of looking at the numbers over the door. In an elevator with 3 people stand as close as possible to them and see how long it takes them to move. Try talking to a stranger.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 16, 2010 9:47:13 GMT -5
Rational, instead of trying to "correct" everything I say...it is my thought that IF you really have a true "care" toward what has happened and what could or should happen, go to this page and read this man's letters...There are several and you need to read them all to know what the man's experiences were. Then maybe you won't be so ready to say that such and such just has to be such and such. www.wingsfortruth.info/dalecombinedletters.pdfAre you suggesting that when your posts contain errors they should be ignored because ...? The goal, I thought, was to eliminate criminals who present a danger to children. If there is enough evidence to warn other parents about the danger an individual presents there is enough evidence to file a report with child protective services (or whatever the appropriate authority is in your state). If there is not enough evidence then telling other parents is gossip and has the potential of damaging another's life. The problem is that people know about a criminal who is hurting children and do not report it to the authorities. Then, when something happens, they stand and condemn others who did not act on their information. The solution is to educate people to report credible incidences of suspected criminal behavior to the appropriate authorities instead of just gossiping about them. As far as the reference you provided in WINGS - it is a perfect example of what should not be done to deal with and help eliminate criminal behavior. Are you also suggesting that I should not have questioned your use of enervation in your posts explaining the way that enervation controls the body? There isn't always 'evidence' which one can take to the authorities. Rather than call any communication between parents gossip, I feel that it often parents being parents, and doing what they think is best to protect their children. For example, if an individual showed up in your area, and someone let a mom know that they had heard they were moved there because of an incident in another state, that certainly doesn't give one any kind of 'proof' that something has happened. However, it would allow the parent to be careful about allowing their children to be around this individual unsupervised. AND.... of course I agree if someone DOES have reason to suspect an individual of CSA and has information which they can give to the authorities than they should do so. The letter on WINGS definitely shows how NOT to handle an issue of CSA that may happen to a family member. The individual who wrote that wishes they would have went to the authorities rather than to the workers. This was a blatant cover-up of what happened at the time, and although the worker in question is no longer in the work, he wasn't removed for several years during which time other abuse occured. There were 5 or 6 letters from different women (all full grown now) which were given to the workers concerning this individual and how they had been molested by him when they were children. These letters were from people both in and out of the fellowship Scott
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Feb 16, 2010 10:26:40 GMT -5
Are you suggesting that when your posts contain errors they should be ignored because ...? The goal, I thought, was to eliminate criminals who present a danger to children. If there is enough evidence to warn other parents about the danger an individual presents there is enough evidence to file a report with child protective services (or whatever the appropriate authority is in your state). If there is not enough evidence then telling other parents is gossip and has the potential of damaging another's life. The problem is that people know about a criminal who is hurting children and do not report it to the authorities. Then, when something happens, they stand and condemn others who did not act on their information. The solution is to educate people to report credible incidences of suspected criminal behavior to the appropriate authorities instead of just gossiping about them. As far as the reference you provided in WINGS - it is a perfect example of what should not be done to deal with and help eliminate criminal behavior. Are you also suggesting that I should not have questioned your use of enervation in your posts explaining the way that enervation controls the body? There isn't always 'evidence' which one can take to the authorities. Rather than call any communication between parents gossip, I feel that it often parents being parents, and doing what they think is best to protect their children. For example, if an individual showed up in your area, and someone let a mom know that they had heard they were moved there because of an incident in another state, that certainly doesn't give one any kind of 'proof' that something has happened. However, it would allow the parent to be careful about allowing their children to be around this individual unsupervised. AND.... of course I agree if someone DOES have reason to suspect an individual of CSA and has information which they can give to the authorities than they should do so. The letter on WINGS definitely shows how NOT to handle an issue of CSA that may happen to a family member. The individual who wrote that wishes they would have went to the authorities rather than to the workers. This was a blatant cover-up of what happened at the time, and although the worker in question is no longer in the work, he wasn't removed for several years during which time other abuse occured. There were 5 or 6 letters from different women (all full grown now) which were given to the workers concerning this individual and how they had been molested by him when they were children. These letters were from people both in and out of the fellowship Scott Thank you Scott for putting it better then I did. I think perhaps the old saying our hindsight is better then our foresight but then that didn't prevent the past from happening but it sure helps us to try to help it from occurring again, eh?
|
|
|
Post by eyedeetentee on Feb 17, 2010 0:19:09 GMT -5
"AND.... of course I agree if someone DOES have reason to suspect an individual of CSA and has information which they can give to the authorities than they should do so."
That statement, in the hands of idiots, is what causes witch hunts. Stupid people believe they are powerful and run to the cops with their grandiose intuitions and suspicions. Before you know it, every male is in jail and has a permanent scar on his record.
Great suggestion. wtf
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Feb 17, 2010 10:28:47 GMT -5
What: How are you planning to prevent your massage therapist--whom you have come to know and trust and who has set up a comfort zone around you--from touching you inappropriately next time you are face-down, half-asleep, unsuspecting and relaxed on the massage table? Just taking a guess here... but you probably aren't doing a blasted thing to prevent it. Probably you don't even think twice about it. You aren't safe because of the comfort ritual... in fact, you are more vulnerable because of it. So... should you never go get a massage again? Just food for thought... freespirit You're conflating two completely different kinds of "rituals". Some are designed for comfort/appearance and some actually make a person safer. For example, when you enter a plane, the airlines prefer you to walk through a covered tube like affair so that you never feel you're off the ground in a little fragile flying tub. That's a comfort ritual. OTOH, they also tell you about oxygen masks, exits and so on, actually useful information. The actual rituals that massage therapists use are partly designed for comfort and partly designed to prevent improper behaviour. For example, registered massage therapists, I have been told, have a real problem with misunderstandings related to the "full service" massage industry. So it's important that things look clinical and professional so there are no misunderstandings. That's not a comfort issue, it's a tangible one. Here's another example. The massage therapist should leave the room when the patient is making ready for the table. I'm told that undressing is potentially an erotic activity, so doing this creates another barrier beween patient and therapist. Do these details prevent the therapist running his hand up your leg? (And incidentally, my therapist always wraps me in such a way that this would be difficult although not impossible). No. But normally sexual advances and overtures are the result of a progression in activity and conversation. The entire environment is designed to prevent that kind of interaction from occurring. Everything is very "professional". The moment that something improper is said or done, you know. For example, if you know the therapist should leave the room, and does not, one day, you already know something is wrong. The same effect applies in designing sexual abuse prevention guidelines where adults interact with children. The moment an adult attempts to get 1 on 1 with a child, the child should already know that something is wrong. I hope you see how that works because it's a very important point. You did not understand my 'seatbelt' analogy. These steps are like putting on a 'seat belt'. They DO inhibit improper behaviour but do not prevent it entirely.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 17, 2010 11:25:24 GMT -5
"AND.... of course I agree if someone DOES have reason to suspect an individual of CSA and has information which they can give to the authorities than they should do so." That statement, in the hands of idiots, is what causes witch hunts. Stupid people believe they are powerful and run to the cops with their grandiose intuitions and suspicions. Before you know it, every male is in jail and has a permanent scar on his record. Great suggestion. wtf Thank you. It is the correct response when one: has information which they can give to the authorities That was the key portion of what I posted there in case you didn't catch it. Information would include not just a name with a vague accusation, but rather names of victims, perpetrator, dates of incidents and such information. When reported to the PROPER authorities, these things can be investigated. Investigations not only are good for the victims (and potential future victims) but likewise are good for those who are being falsely accused. I do NOT advocate calling the authorities without having facts to report to them. Scott
|
|
|
Post by freespirit on Feb 17, 2010 15:15:47 GMT -5
You're conflating two completely different kinds of "rituals". Some are designed for comfort/appearance and some actually make a person safer. For example, when you enter a plane, the airlines prefer you to walk through a covered tube like affair so that you never feel you're off the ground in a little fragile flying tub. That's a comfort ritual. OTOH, they also tell you about oxygen masks, exits and so on, actually useful information. The actual rituals that massage therapists use are partly designed for comfort and partly designed to prevent improper behaviour. For example, registered massage therapists, I have been told, have a real problem with misunderstandings related to the "full service" massage industry. So it's important that things look clinical and professional so there are no misunderstandings. That's not a comfort issue, it's a tangible one. This sounds to me like the comfort ritual is to protect the therapist more than the client. So....... I gotta ask.... if the checklist wasn't followed, would you touch your therapist sexually? Is he in danger of you making a move on him? Here's another example. The massage therapist should leave the room when the patient is making ready for the table. I'm told that undressing is potentially an erotic activity, so doing this creates another barrier beween patient and therapist. Do these details prevent the therapist running his hand up your leg? (And incidentally, my therapist always wraps me in such a way that this would be difficult although not impossible). No. But normally sexual advances and overtures are the result of a progression in activity and conversation. The entire environment is designed to prevent that kind of interaction from occurring. Everything is very "professional". The moment that something improper is said or done, you know. For example, if you know the therapist should leave the room, and does not, one day, you already know something is wrong. Okay... so if one day my therapist doesn't leave the room....now I am a woman alone, undressed with a large, strong man who is military trained in hand-to-hand combat. The same effect applies in designing sexual abuse prevention guidelines where adults interact with children. The moment an adult attempts to get 1 on 1 with a child, the child should already know that something is wrong. I hope you see how that works because it's a very important point. "The moment an adult attemts to get alone with a child"? Quick! Ban babysitting! Ban mothers from staying home with their kids! Don't EVER let a dad take his daughter for a walk! Are all men rapists? www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,980115-8,00.html freespirit
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Feb 17, 2010 17:09:40 GMT -5
You're conflating two completely different kinds of "rituals". Some are designed for comfort/appearance and some actually make a person safer. For example, when you enter a plane, the airlines prefer you to walk through a covered tube like affair so that you never feel you're off the ground in a little fragile flying tub. That's a comfort ritual. OTOH, they also tell you about oxygen masks, exits and so on, actually useful information. The actual rituals that massage therapists use are partly designed for comfort and partly designed to prevent improper behaviour. For example, registered massage therapists, I have been told, have a real problem with misunderstandings related to the "full service" massage industry. So it's important that things look clinical and professional so there are no misunderstandings. That's not a comfort issue, it's a tangible one. This sounds to me like the comfort ritual is to protect the therapist more than the client. (Note 1)So....... I gotta ask.... if the checklist wasn't followed, would you touch your therapist sexually? Is he in danger of you making a move on him? Okay... so if one day my therapist doesn't leave the room....now I am a woman alone, undressed with a large, strong man who is military trained in hand-to-hand combat. (Note 2)The same effect applies in designing sexual abuse prevention guidelines where adults interact with children. The moment an adult attempts to get 1 on 1 with a child, the child should already know that something is wrong. I hope you see how that works because it's a very important point. "The moment an adult attemts to get alone with a child"? Quick! Ban babysitting! Ban mothers from staying home with their kids! Don't EVER let a dad take his daughter for a walk! (Note 3)Are all men rapists? www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,980115-8,00.html freespirit I'm not sure if you're trying to be funny or give me a hard time, maybe both, but I will try once more, and then that's it. 1) Yes, the guidelines protect both the child and the worker, or the therapist and patient. 2) If the therapist does not leave the room, I would suggest you leave the building. He might only be wanting to make a pass at you, and the chance of him using force is actually slight. Regardless, no protocol will work in every situation. 3) CSA guidelines do not cover parent-child interactions; they are designed to cover interactions between children and adults who work with them in a volunteer or professional capacity.
|
|
|
Post by freespirit on Feb 17, 2010 17:50:42 GMT -5
3) CSA guidelines do not cover parent-child interactions; they are designed to cover interactions between children and adults who work with them in a volunteer or professional capacity. In many cases adults in professional capacities--babysitters, nannies, councilors, teachers, doctors, nurses--are alone with children. My child's kindergarten teacher once drove him home--**alone** in the car together! Another time she watched him for the evening and they were alone at her house. Should these things be considered suspicious behavior? fs
|
|
|
Post by freespirit on Feb 17, 2010 18:11:58 GMT -5
2) If the therapist does not leave the room, I would suggest you leave the building. He might only be wanting to make a pass at you, and the chance of him using force is actually slight. Regardless, no protocol will work in every situation. Or maybe he doesn't leave the room because the two of us are in the middle of a conversation. When did all men become rapists who--at the slightest opportunity or provocation--are ready to pounce on women and children? freespirit
|
|
|
Post by eyedeetentee on Feb 17, 2010 20:30:37 GMT -5
"That was the key portion of what I posted there in case you didn't catch it. Information would include not just a name with a vague accusation, but rather names of victims, perpetrator, dates of incidents and such information.
When reported to the PROPER authorities, these things can be investigated. Investigations not only are good for the victims (and potential future victims) but likewise are good for those who are being falsely accused.
I do NOT advocate calling the authorities without having facts to report to them."
Those statements were not made in the post to which I replied. I know what you meant but it wasn't written. As I said, statements like that, if people believe you to be an official on the subject, gives them what they believe to be license to name names and go on witch hunts. "Information to include . . . facts to report . . ." Those are the key statements.
You're welcome.
|
|
|
Post by eyedeetentee on Feb 17, 2010 20:36:16 GMT -5
2) If the therapist does not leave the room, I would suggest you leave the building. He might only be wanting to make a pass at you, and the chance of him using force is actually slight. Regardless, no protocol will work in every situation. Or maybe he doesn't leave the room because the two of us are in the middle of a conversation. When did all men become rapists who--at the slightest opportunity or provocation--are ready to pounce on women and children? freespirit Surprisingly, many people seem to think men are sex hounds and will devour anyone in their paths. Maybe there are some men out there like that but I bet there are more who discriminate. Most people have preferences and don't sway from them. You like what you like. Sex hungry, indiscriminate people are statistics.
|
|