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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2010 1:24:29 GMT -5
Freespirit, how do you feel about children sleeping with children? How about parents sleeping with children?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2010 1:25:37 GMT -5
Freespirit, how do you feel about a 14 year old boy spending unsupervised time with a 9 year old girl? How about a 14 year old boy wrestling with an 11 year old girl?
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Post by freespirit on Feb 11, 2010 1:27:55 GMT -5
No, that doesn't clarify it at all. Dads and boys wrestle. Moms and boys wrestle. Boys and boys wrestle. IMO you seem to have some sort of idea that non-sexual human touch or movement is somehow immoral. freespirit So you are mindreading now. It's ridiculous to suggest that I think non-sexual touch is immoral. That's an oxymoron. I have stated that my primary concern with most wrestling is physical safety, unless you think that has something to do with immorality? I notice that you didn't include Dads wrestling with girls. Do you have a problem with that? How about a Dad wrestling with a 14 year old girl? Do you feel it is appropriate for a mom to wrestle with a 13 year old boy? I don't see an issue with non-sexual touch. Doesn't make any difference if it is male or female. At the karate studio men/women/boys/girls of all ages grapple regularly. It is how they learn how to defend themselves. freespirit
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2010 1:31:02 GMT -5
Yes, it's all good when it's non-sexual touch and it all is of course. Right. Guaranteed.
I note you mention men and women grappling, why change the subject? Frankly, men and women can do what they want. We're focusing mainly on adults grappling with underaged children.
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Post by freespirit on Feb 11, 2010 1:37:44 GMT -5
I think you must have misread my post.
freespirit
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Post by freespirit on Feb 11, 2010 1:42:24 GMT -5
How about parents sleeping with children? Non-sexual human touch between parents and children is normal. Humans are social animals. freespirit
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2010 1:42:42 GMT -5
At this point freespirit, you have so far indicated no boundaries, no supervision for your children involved in activities touching others (if you have any children). I stand to be corrected and enlightened on how you protect your children. Can you share what, if any, boundaries you do engage on this subject?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2010 1:44:08 GMT -5
How about parents sleeping with children? Non-sexual human touch between parents and children is normal. Humans are social animals. freespirit So a Dad sleeping with his 14 year old daughter is good and normal? Humans are social animals....and sexual animals.
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Post by freespirit on Feb 11, 2010 2:05:30 GMT -5
Clearday, most of my family are medical professionals and it isn't the slightest bit odd to do stuff with each other. I think only a perv would think that sleeping or touching someone automatically means sex. Yes, I think it's perfectly normal for families to **sleep** (NOT SEX!) in the same room or bed or whatever. My son and I regularly fall asleep beside the fire together. For generations it was **ordinary** that babies and mommies be in bed together--easiest way to breastfeed. Very natural. Very healthy.
Non-sexual human touch is good for people--it's an expression of love and care. And, IMO, we oughta teach our children moral ways to feel good in our own bodies--like massage and movement and hugging and wrestling and holding hands. None of these things are sexual. And... we should also teach them what is *wrong*.
IMO you seem to be confused about the difference between moral and immoral actions. It is not the wrestling that was immoral.
freespirit
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Post by Done4now on Feb 11, 2010 2:46:22 GMT -5
Clearday, most of my family are medical professionals and it isn't the slightest bit odd to do stuff with each other. I think only a perv would think that sleeping or touching someone automatically means sex. Yes, I think it's perfectly normal for families to **sleep** (NOT SEX!) in the same room or bed or whatever. My son and I regularly fall asleep beside the fire together. For generations it was **ordinary** that babies and mommies be in bed together--easiest way to breastfeed. Very natural. Very healthy. Non-sexual human touch is good for people--it's an expression of love and care. And, IMO, we oughta teach our children moral ways to feel good in our own bodies--like massage and movement and hugging and wrestling and holding hands. None of these things are sexual. And... we should also teach them what is *wrong*. IMO you seem to be confused about the difference between moral and immoral actions. It is not the wrestling that was immoral. freespirit I can see your point with touching between family members. However--I do not think an adult who is a NON family member should touch minor children at all. And yes---that even applies to things like giving a massage. If a child needs something that involves such touching, as physical therapy--then a parent should be present at all times. Clearday--Kudos to you and your wife for protecting your children even though it isn't "politically correct". It is a lot better to be careful than to have a lot of grief later. The more I get to know you--the more I respect you.
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Post by freespirit on Feb 11, 2010 3:01:57 GMT -5
I can see your point with touching between family members. However--I do not think an adult who is a NON family member should touch minor children at all. I think it is completely bizarre not to hug children (and adults). freespirit
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Post by buzzybee on Feb 11, 2010 3:56:14 GMT -5
No, that doesn't clarify it at all. Dads and boys wrestle. Moms and boys wrestle. Boys and boys wrestle. IMO you seem to have some sort of idea that non-sexual human touch or movement is somehow immoral. freespirit I had to laugh at this because i totally agree with this. Even my cat knows the difference. My cat is a bit over weight. If you've ever tried to wash a cats poopie butt because she can't reach it, you will find out that the cat thinks this is horribly immoral and lets you know!
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Post by sillymoo on Feb 11, 2010 5:57:55 GMT -5
Anyone known for any child sexual abuse needs to be reported to the proper authorities, in the proper way, so they can be punished in a proper court of law!!!! period....
This goes for anybody in any trusted position... wheather your a preacher, a doctor, a teacher, a child care provider, anything....
The thought of what these people do to innocent children makes me sick to the very core.... it makes my heart ache to think what these poor children go through and what they have to deal with after the fact... Often time true pedophiles see nothing wrong with their action and have no remorse... while affected children are affected well into adult hood with their stolen innocence with emotional scars....
I think that if you can be involved with an incident such as this and turn a blind eye or not take the proper action against the perp that it is sickening to say the least.... and if any child is harmed in the future because of their lack of action they should be held as much at fault as the perp...
I can not even begin to understand how someone could witness such a thing and not be taken with such emotion that they would not want the proper lawful punishment for such crimes... If i ever suspected anyone of sexual or physical abuse of a child you better believe I would be on the phone to the child protective services in an instance... If they have done nothing wrong, they are investigated, and nothing comes of it.... but if they have done something wrong they deserve their punishment...
Is child abuse any less of a crime them murder... If someone you new murdered someone would you try to help them cover it up... I highly doubt it... Except if you are murdered you have no more pain, but if you are a child being abused and the perp in not reported properly you have to continue living with that pain... and it is likely other could be harmed as well
I just pray that anyone who would have any knowledge of such action will take proper action in the future... It is our job to protect our children and those little innocent ones who can not or are afraid to speak for themselves....
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Post by freespirit on Feb 11, 2010 7:34:08 GMT -5
Anyone known for any child sexual abuse needs to be reported to the proper authorities, in the proper way, so they can be punished in a proper court of law!!!! period.... This goes for anybody in any trusted position... wheather your a preacher, a doctor, a teacher, a child care provider, anything.... The thought of what these people do to innocent children makes me sick to the very core.... it makes my heart ache to think what these poor children go through and what they have to deal with after the fact... Often time true pedophiles see nothing wrong with their action and have no remorse... while affected children are affected well into adult hood with their stolen innocence with emotional scars.... I think that if you can be involved with an incident such as this and turn a blind eye or not take the proper action against the perp that it is sickening to say the least.... and if any child is harmed in the future because of their lack of action they should be held as much at fault as the perp... I can not even begin to understand how someone could witness such a thing and not be taken with such emotion that they would not want the proper lawful punishment for such crimes... If i ever suspected anyone of sexual or physical abuse of a child you better believe I would be on the phone to the child protective services in an instance... If they have done nothing wrong, they are investigated, and nothing comes of it.... but if they have done something wrong they deserve their punishment... Is child abuse any less of a crime them murder... If someone you new murdered someone would you try to help them cover it up... I highly doubt it... Except if you are murdered you have no more pain, but if you are a child being abused and the perp in not reported properly you have to continue living with that pain... and it is likely other could be harmed as well I just pray that anyone who would have any knowledge of such action will take proper action in the future... It is our job to protect our children and those little innocent ones who can not or are afraid to speak for themselves.... I agree. Actually I think child perps should be put in small cages and have hot pokers shoved up their toenails. But, I understand I'm not very level-headed about this. freespirit
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Post by sharonw on Feb 11, 2010 8:08:44 GMT -5
Just days before Darren was taken home, he was in the home of the family, with the Russian children, that had been accused, in the basement with the young boys wrestling. His companion BD was in the home also. This was in the last part of Nov., 2006, just after he had been in the home with the child he abused . After him and the companion left that home, he was gone in a very short time. Apparently, the overseer was contacted about the conduct in the home with the Russian children. Jerome and BD then took him away. One has to wonder IF this is what started some folks into the thought of using the twins as vehicles of some sort to bring this to a head or to bring some kind of glory to someone?
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Post by sharonw on Feb 11, 2010 8:10:44 GMT -5
Freespirit, how do you feel about children sleeping with children? How about parents sleeping with children? How about a "mature" 13 y//o girl and her 9 y/o brother sleeping in the same bed as their grandmother?
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shiloh
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Post by shiloh on Feb 11, 2010 8:42:13 GMT -5
Touching, grabbing, sqeezing or tickling anyone near the waist is out of line.
Workers need to be espcially careful as they live in their friend's homes. Avoid being alone with children. Especially one on one...One worker per one child. Avoid walks. I have heard of a worker asking children to go with him for a walk.
The BEDROOM should be OFF LIMITS. Parents need to tell their children to STAY OUT of the worker's bedrooms when they are there. If a one worker and one child goes into the bedroom, parents should enter the room. You are allowing the worker to sin and the child to be abused if you don't STOP THIS SITUATION BEFORE IT STARTS.
It is time for overseers to lay out expected behaviors in their friend's homes. Even if the copy gets out to TMB. Michigan has been a haven of such behavior. Colorodo used to be such a place.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 11, 2010 15:02:50 GMT -5
No, that doesn't clarify it at all. Dads and boys wrestle. Moms and boys wrestle. Boys and boys wrestle. IMO you seem to have some sort of idea that non-sexual human touch or movement is somehow immoral. freespirit Conduct codes for youth counsellors, teachers, etc have strict guideline on all kinds of touching. Touching is allowed but I have seen codes that say just a pat on the back or things of that nature.
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Post by eyedeetentee on Feb 11, 2010 22:46:04 GMT -5
I'm not sure what this has to do with 35 year old men wrestling with 11 year old boys. And regarding your post about restricting various activities, yes there are many restrictions I would advocate. One is organized wrestling and boxing should be banned until age 16 and require parental consent until 18. No masseuse or chiro should be allowed to practice on minors without an parent consenting and present (what chiro or masseuse in their right minds would do so anyway?) I think Edie is spot on with her insistence on having a parent present when doing home inspections. Just as she is super careful to minimize the risk of false accusations, so should all parents be super careful not to put their children at any risk which they can proactively reduce significantly. Our children have never been in a room alone with a worker. Are we going overboard? Not a bit in my view. I watch my kids' coaches like a hawk, not just their relationship with my kids, but with others on the team. So far, all that has done has raise my esteem for all of them for their highly developed sense of propriety, but a parent should not cease to watch. Parents should always be present when there are activities that involve significant adult touching of minor children. You can send your little Johnny off to spend Saturday afternoon alone wrestling with Joe Podunk the wrestler, I won't be sending mine. I'm glad you weren't in charge of my life. I had to go to the chiropractor as a young kid to alleviate asthma. Mom usually took me and didn't need to stay in the room with me. We had to drive quite a ways to get to his office and it was usually at a moment's notice, so Mom spent time with his wife or took care of other business. I spent a great deal of time alone with various workers over the years. I remember Mom telling me to leave them alone several times but I was snoopy, always looking in their suitcases or asking them ten thousand questions while they tried writing letters. They were human beings who needed loving attention just like everyone needs. Except their need was a little stronger since they were away from their own homes. Love was the need - I didn't say sex. People were not looking to sue or find fault with everyone in those days. People had crooked presidents and pointless wars on their minds so they were more trusting of one another; the working man knew his brother. Edy would not have to be super careful about minimizing risk if there weren't so many overzealous jerks out there looking to pin a stranger with unfounded intentions. I can understand the need to protect your own children. Overprotection can be just as damaging to a kid as underprotection. Some overly protected kids feel a need to break out and away from headstrong parents. Their lives reel headlong into trouble for a few years after busting out of their jail house homes. But I'm definitely not going to tell you what's right or wrong. You obviously have that all figured out. I'm just glad you weren't my parent.
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Post by freespirit on Feb 11, 2010 22:59:07 GMT -5
I spent a great deal of time alone with various workers over the years. I remember Mom telling me to leave them alone several times but I was snoopy, always looking in their suitcases or asking them ten thousand questions while they tried writing letters. They were human beings who needed loving attention just like everyone needs. Except their need was a little stronger since they were away from their own homes. Love was the need - I didn't say sex. Me too. I've had many good, deep conversations while in my room and other places with workers. I don't buy into the every-man-is-a-rapist theory. Yes, we should take precautions--yes, yes, yes!--and definitely we should not just blindly trust people because they happen to be a worker (or doctor or teacher or anything else), but some of this sounds like a witch hunt to me. And I don't wanna stop hugging people or kids or puppies. Everybody needs a hug every now and then. freespirit
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Post by snow on Feb 11, 2010 23:26:03 GMT -5
I spent a great deal of time alone with various workers over the years. I remember Mom telling me to leave them alone several times but I was snoopy, always looking in their suitcases or asking them ten thousand questions while they tried writing letters. They were human beings who needed loving attention just like everyone needs. Except their need was a little stronger since they were away from their own homes. Love was the need - I didn't say sex. Me too. I've had many good, deep conversations while in my room and other places with workers. I don't buy into the every-man-is-a-rapist theory. Yes, we should take precautions--yes, yes, yes!--and definitely we should not just blindly trust people because they happen to be a worker (or doctor or teacher or anything else), but some of this sounds like a witch hunt to me. And I don't wanna stop hugging people or kids or puppies. Everybody needs a hug every now and then. freespirit I don't want to stop hugging people either. We are already dubbed a "cold" society because we do less touching than many other groups. Suppressing a natural sex drive in the clergy and expecting them to be celibate, seems to me to be asking for trouble.
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Post by eyedeetentee on Feb 11, 2010 23:31:36 GMT -5
Yeah, how can they expect them to celebrate?
Oh, celibate.
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Post by emy on Feb 11, 2010 23:50:57 GMT -5
I'm not sure what this has to do with 35 year old men wrestling with 11 year old boys. And regarding your post about restricting various activities, yes there are many restrictions I would advocate. One is organized wrestling and boxing should be banned until age 16 and require parental consent until 18. No masseuse or chiro should be allowed to practice on minors without an parent consenting and present (what chiro or masseuse in their right minds would do so anyway?) I think Edie is spot on with her insistence on having a parent present when doing home inspections. Just as she is super careful to minimize the risk of false accusations, so should all parents be super careful not to put their children at any risk which they can proactively reduce significantly. Our children have never been in a room alone with a worker. Are we going overboard? Not a bit in my view. I watch my kids' coaches like a hawk, not just their relationship with my kids, but with others on the team. So far, all that has done has raise my esteem for all of them for their highly developed sense of propriety, but a parent should not cease to watch. Parents should always be present when there are activities that involve significant adult touching of minor children. You can send your little Johnny off to spend Saturday afternoon alone wrestling with Joe Podunk the wrestler, I won't be sending mine. I'm glad you weren't in charge of my life. I had to go to the chiropractor as a young kid to alleviate asthma. Mom usually took me and didn't need to stay in the room with me. We had to drive quite a ways to get to his office and it was usually at a moment's notice, so Mom spent time with his wife or took care of other business. I spent a great deal of time alone with various workers over the years. I remember Mom telling me to leave them alone several times but I was snoopy, always looking in their suitcases or asking them ten thousand questions while they tried writing letters. They were human beings who needed loving attention just like everyone needs. Except their need was a little stronger since they were away from their own homes. Love was the need - I didn't say sex. People were not looking to sue or find fault with everyone in those days. People had crooked presidents and pointless wars on their minds so they were more trusting of one another; the working man knew his brother. Edy would not have to be super careful about minimizing risk if there weren't so many overzealous jerks out there looking to pin a stranger with unfounded intentions. I can understand the need to protect your own children. Overprotection can be just as damaging to a kid as underprotection. Some overly protected kids feel a need to break out and away from headstrong parents. Their lives reel headlong into trouble for a few years after busting out of their jail house homes. But I'm definitely not going to tell you what's right or wrong. You obviously have that all figured out. I'm just glad you weren't my parent. Thank you, ID. I wanted to respond in a similar way, but you did it so much better! And you are lots younger! Those of us in my age range grew up in a totally different atmosphere. Sort of a "takes a village to raise a child" environment. No wonder it's taking us awhile to catch up to modern thought and methods.
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Post by freespirit on Feb 12, 2010 0:56:27 GMT -5
No wonder it's taking us awhile to catch up to modern thought and methods. If the modern way involves shoving 6 week old babies into industrialized day care hours and hours where they are never held or coddled instead of hugging, tussling and playing and sleeping with your own kid on the floor, I'll take the old-fashion stuff even if it involves giving up a 100K career and eating ketchup and rice for a few years. I kinda worked off and on so... everybody has to make their own decisions about stuff and daycare has its strong points. I have a friend who has to work full time and is one of the best moms that I know. I guess it all depends on the teacher and place and mom and situation and all of it. At least that's been my experience. But... all the same... there really is something to that old fashion stuff. I have a blessed life. God has been good to us. And... I'm grateful for a husband who is generous, loving and acts like a responsible head of the family. I think it's weird not to hug children, puppies, and other adults. Freakin' weird. We're all six years old inside and scared to death and we all need a hug sometimes. Pass the Oreos. freespirit
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Post by jason on Feb 12, 2010 4:01:52 GMT -5
I think it's weird not to hug children, puppies, and other adults. Aren't they working on machines to relieve us of these chores?
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Post by freespirit on Feb 12, 2010 6:05:34 GMT -5
I think it's weird not to hug children, puppies, and other adults. Aren't they working on machines to relieve us of these chores? Probably. hugs, fs (get it?) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by jason on Feb 12, 2010 7:47:06 GMT -5
I notice that you didn't include Dads wrestling with girls. Do you have a problem with that? How about a Dad wrestling with a 14 year old girl? Do you feel it is appropriate for a mom to wrestle with a 13 year old boy? I assume you have not spent much time with teenagers recently. In my experience, teenage girls often engage in physical play with their fathers and male siblings. When a girl enters her teenage years, she does not suddenly become a purely sexual being beyond contact. That is a naive view indeed. Teenagers - girl and boy - are still children. As such they exhibit juvenile behaviours, even as they gradually (and sometimes very slowly) edge toward greater maturity. I find the suggestion that teenagers are suddenly hyper-sexualised beings to be irksome and damaging to normal cognitive and social development. Why should mothers not wrestle with their teenage sons? Where did you get that crazy-ass rule? As a teenager I loved giving my mother bearhugs and showering her with kisses, and trying to show her how strong I was by attempting to lift her up. My brothers were\are the same. It is an expression of filial love. Even now, in my later twenties, I still hug and kiss my mother unashamedly. I fear the day when hyper-vigilant fools with their irrational made-up-rules that exceed the primness even of the Victorians, foist their dysfunctional ideas on the rest of us and make every expression of affection a sexual act.
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Post by sharonw on Feb 12, 2010 7:56:35 GMT -5
I was raised in a non-demonstrative family. The only way a family member ever was assured that he/she was loved, part of the family was when someone outside the family had adverse thoughts, words or actions against that family member. Then the whole family stood together against that person outside the family. I married a man who was raised with demonstrative family, it was hell for me to get used to that...I was easily embarrassed, easily provoked to jealousy against my husband and his demonstrative affection for others. It was a hard transition, but when I got it made...I enjoyed it fully. Then I went to nursing school and "touch" was taught as a "healing component". Don't tell me that touching is not healing, reassuring. Course you need to develop a sixth sense to know who will receive a touch positively and who won't. That's a part of being able to read the other person. It is a necessary thing in life.
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