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Post by alexander on Sept 11, 2011 19:39:32 GMT -5
I agree with you. I do not feel that I have to be a part of the 2x2 system to be saved or to serve the Lord. Not at all. However, I do not feel lead away from the 2x2 system. I do not see the wisdom in running from a problem, but rather confronting the problem and coming to a solution. I felt the same way too, Alexander - for over 6 years. I was certain that if I could just explain things to the right person, everything would be taken care of. We also lost our friends - including many former peers on the California staff, and the friends here in Hawai`i - one by one. It eventually became apparent that the "little misunderstanding" was a big thing to them - or at least addressing the issue was. I too thought that by "standing true," I would be able to help "cleanse the Kingdom." I eventually realized that the system was not what I once thought it was, and realized that I did not need it. You are probably right, Alan. Thank you for sharing your testimony. It has been an encouragement to me.
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Post by sharonw on Sept 11, 2011 19:45:15 GMT -5
Personally, we go to several different Christian churches in the area -- and some Sunday's we go up in the mountains to ride horses or hike. I don't feel like you HAVE to be in any church -- and I'm certainly never going to be a member of any denomination ever again. God's bigger than all of it and He's always with me!! I just don't see the point in waiting until you are excommunicated. It is SO worth it to be happy and serve the Lord God without all the distractions/stress you and family are going through currently. I don't ever post on here unless I have prayed first for God to guide my words. For His reasons, He is really laying you and your family on my heart. Thanks, Melissa. I had missed this post until SharonW responded to it. I agree with you. I do not feel that I have to be a part of the 2x2 system to be saved or to serve the Lord. Not at all. However, I do not feel lead away from the 2x2 system. I do not see the wisdom in running from a problem, but rather confronting the problem and coming to a solution. I know that SharonW doesn't believe me, but my family isn't in any stress or discomfort. The love of our family for the Lord and trust in Him is plainly evident, and we do not tie our salvation to what the workers or friends think. The Lord has blessed us more and more as the months go by- my only source of discomfort/heart ache comes as my friends drop off communicating with me one by one. But, be that as it may, I understand why they do what they do and it gives me that much more courage to fight against the system that promotes such a devilish tactic as shunning and false gossip. Alexander, I have a lot of trouble believing that any one would stick with a system that apparently is often found doing what you're accusing it of doing and there being no real resolution tactics ever known to be used by that system...that you'd just sit there taking all of the whatever ESPECIALLY with underaged children who's whole outlook of the system that they go to worship in has been formed by this so very radical down-spiraling treatment.....I don't think it is wise to keep children under that kind of "formative religious upbringing." But true, they are your children and you will face them supposedly all the rest of YOUR life and most of theirs and you willl see problems down the road. The fierce upright upbringing of the 2x2 system is alone enough to turn children into anti-christians much less being a constant victim of such carryings on that they've had to for the past 2 years....course you can say, "Well we've made it for the past two years without a hitch, so we'll keep on." I'd have to ask "How many of those 15 children are foster children?" That alone can bring you down lower then your knees should any case worker find out the "atmosphere" in which these children have had to face simply because "dad wills it so".....and there are the other children to be considered as well...is a neighbor or one of the friends or one of the workers going to possibly call the authorities in regard to this atmospheric pressure? Think of all of it, and I suppose you'll say you have...but I feel deep in my soul that you're setting your whole family up for some kind of negative whiplash in all of this... Either remove your family from it or apologize to the 2 overseers for your part in any negative things, and settle down and let it go.....and continue on in the fellowship....the only one who is going to have to give is yourself...it's give-in to the offending workers or give up and move on out of the fellowship...there are other churches who have home mtgs. and Nathan says there are other churches who go out 2x2.....
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Post by alexander on Sept 11, 2011 19:52:20 GMT -5
Thanks, Melissa. I had missed this post until SharonW responded to it. I agree with you. I do not feel that I have to be a part of the 2x2 system to be saved or to serve the Lord. Not at all. However, I do not feel lead away from the 2x2 system. I do not see the wisdom in running from a problem, but rather confronting the problem and coming to a solution. I know that SharonW doesn't believe me, but my family isn't in any stress or discomfort. The love of our family for the Lord and trust in Him is plainly evident, and we do not tie our salvation to what the workers or friends think. The Lord has blessed us more and more as the months go by- my only source of discomfort/heart ache comes as my friends drop off communicating with me one by one. But, be that as it may, I understand why they do what they do and it gives me that much more courage to fight against the system that promotes such a devilish tactic as shunning and false gossip. Alexander, I have a lot of trouble believing that any one would stick with a system that apparently is often found doing what you're accusing it of doing and there being no real resolution tactics ever known to be used by that system...that you'd just sit there taking all of the whatever ESPECIALLY with underaged children who's whole outlook of the system that they go to worship in has been formed by this so very radical down-spiraling treatment.....I don't think it is wise to keep children under that kind of "formative religious upbringing." But true, they are your children and you will face them supposedly all the rest of YOUR life and most of theirs and you willl see problems down the road. The fierce upright upbringing of the 2x2 system is alone enough to turn children into anti-christians much less being a constant victim of such carryings on that they've had to for the past 2 years....course you can say, "Well we've made it for the past two years without a hitch, so we'll keep on." I'd have to ask "How many of those 15 children are foster children?" That alone can bring you down lower then your knees should any case worker find out the "atmosphere" in which these children have had to face simply because "dad wills it so".....and there are the other children to be considered as well...is a neighbor or one of the friends or one of the workers going to possibly call the authorities in regard to this atmospheric pressure? Think of all of it, and I suppose you'll say you have...but I feel deep in my soul that you're setting your whole family up for some kind of negative whiplash in all of this... Either remove your family from it or apologize to the 2 overseers for your part in any negative things, and settle down and let it go.....and continue on in the fellowship....the only one who is going to have to give is yourself...it's give-in to the offending workers or give up and move on out of the fellowship...there are other churches who have home mtgs. and Nathan says there are other churches who go out 2x2..... The 2x2 system is a great system to raise children. I am so glad for all of the positive and Godly influences from the many workers and friends that have helped me and that have been such a blessing in the lives of our family. I may be leaving this fellowship soon enough. I do have a time in mind, but it won't be because I feel threatened, but because I will know that it is time.
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Post by ronhall on Sept 11, 2011 20:08:57 GMT -5
Thanks, Melissa. I had missed this post until SharonW responded to it. I agree with you. I do not feel that I have to be a part of the 2x2 system to be saved or to serve the Lord. Not at all. However, I do not feel lead away from the 2x2 system. I do not see the wisdom in running from a problem, but rather confronting the problem and coming to a solution. I know that SharonW doesn't believe me, but my family isn't in any stress or discomfort. The love of our family for the Lord and trust in Him is plainly evident, and we do not tie our salvation to what the workers or friends think. The Lord has blessed us more and more as the months go by- my only source of discomfort/heart ache comes as my friends drop off communicating with me one by one. But, be that as it may, I understand why they do what they do and it gives me that much more courage to fight against the system that promotes such a devilish tactic as shunning and false gossip. Alexander, I have a lot of trouble believing that any one would stick with a system that apparently is often found doing what you're accusing it of doing and there being no real resolution tactics ever known to be used by that system...that you'd just sit there taking all of the whatever ESPECIALLY with underaged children who's whole outlook of the system that they go to worship in has been formed by this so very radical down-spiraling treatment.....I don't think it is wise to keep children under that kind of "formative religious upbringing." But true, they are your children and you will face them supposedly all the rest of YOUR life and most of theirs and you willl see problems down the road. The fierce upright upbringing of the 2x2 system is alone enough to turn children into anti-christians much less being a constant victim of such carryings on that they've had to for the past 2 years....course you can say, "Well we've made it for the past two years without a hitch, so we'll keep on." I'd have to ask "How many of those 15 children are foster children?" That alone can bring you down lower then your knees should any case worker find out the "atmosphere" in which these children have had to face simply because "dad wills it so".....and there are the other children to be considered as well...is a neighbor or one of the friends or one of the workers going to possibly call the authorities in regard to this atmospheric pressure? Think of all of it, and I suppose you'll say you have...but I feel deep in my soul that you're setting your whole family up for some kind of negative whiplash in all of this... Either remove your family from it or apologize to the 2 overseers for your part in any negative things, and settle down and let it go.....and continue on in the fellowship....the only one who is going to have to give is yourself...it's give-in to the offending workers or give up and move on out of the fellowship...there are other churches who have home mtgs. and Nathan says there are other churches who go out 2x2..... I don't see alexander as a proponent of and administering the "fierce upright upbringing of the 2x2 system. I haven't the faintest idea as to where you have read that from his posts. If anything, he is very diligent in giving his foster kids who have had traumatic experiences in their young lives, the best treatment available, even when it goes against common upbringing for kids who have not experienced such. I'm also sure the children's agencies involved are very aware of the love for kids in alexander's home and his interest in providing the best for them. His kids are well behaved and thriving under alexander's parentage. Why argue with success? I use the name 'alexander' and 'his', but there's obviously a virtuous woman involved in this too.
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Post by alexander on Sept 11, 2011 20:24:19 GMT -5
I use the name 'alexander' and 'his', but there's obviously a virtuous woman involved in this too. Absolutely. Thank you, Ronhall.
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Post by dlb5674 on Sept 11, 2011 20:34:20 GMT -5
Alexander, it seems that you don't want anyone in the work hurt over this and to some extent I respect you for this spirit. My comments to you are brother to brother and out of deep concern for your spiritual and mental well-being and for that of your family. You should never leave because you are forced out but rather should leave because you are led out. I have noted in several posts you have made in this thread that "excommunication" is mentioned. Do you believe that you would be more justified in leaving the system if you were excommunicated than to leave of your own accord? Sometimes it's easier to have the decision made for us. It would take away our guilt or keep us from feeling that our exit would be a rejection or judgement of all those we leave behind. I too, struggled with the decision but knew it would be liberating and more spiritually healthy to acknowledge that staying in would only compromise my peace of mind. I feel for your position but encourage you to lay this before God and trust that your feelings of concern are likely a result of the Holy Spirit working in your life.
While the 2x2 system may "appear" to be a great system to raise children in because there are some expectations of conforming to moral standards (and even this is not always the case) there are other churches outside of the 2x2 fellowship that offer an equally positive spiritual and moral atmosphere for children. Unfortunately, there has been an attempt to convince the members of the fellowship that this is not the case and to wander outside of the confines of the group would mean certain spiritual death or disaster.
I trust that things will work out according to God's will.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Sept 11, 2011 20:42:07 GMT -5
I have noted in several posts you have made in this thread that "excommunication" is mentioned. Do you believe that you would be more justified in leaving the system if you were excommunicated than to leave of your own accord? Sometimes it's easier to have the decision made for us. It would take away our guilt or keep us from feeling that our exit would be a rejection or judgement of all those we leave behind. I too, struggled with the decision but knew it would be liberating and more spiritually healthy to acknowledge that staying in would only compromise my peace of mind. This is an interesting observation, dlb. I too thought I would be "exed," and perhaps hoped for it, as I would not have been required to make the decision. But making the decision was indeed liberating, and it is likely a strength to me now to have made that decision on my own.
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Post by sharonw on Sept 11, 2011 20:51:22 GMT -5
This story isn't likely about bad people either. I doubt that DennisK and GeorgeL are bad fellows. This story is about a church system which isn't working and it certainly isn't serving its members. Exactly. These two overseers are known to be especially protective of the 2x2 system and their understanding of overseer authority. Part of the feedback that I have gotten back is that it is being reported that I do not respect the worker's authority. I replied back that I highly respect the authority of the workers'- but I do not respect abuse of authority. Most entities in the world have policies in place to monitor and handle abuses of authority. The 2x2 system doesn't. You are correct, most other overseers have asked this question, "What can I do?" There really isn't much that they can do. While I was debating just how much "Power" I should attach to the workers in most anything concerning the fellowship I have to say that this scripture came to my mind frequently... Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. Just how far does one push the workers' authority? I think Scott has said on here more then once, "It is the workers' church, either fit in with them or if that isn't for you, then get out." Seems a reasonable expectation since it IS the workers' church....the whole 2x2 system is for the workers and workers only....the friends are nothing more then serfs in a serfdom and cannot nor should not question any worker and as Dale Shultz said "even if he is wrong." And I think that pretty well should make all of us know that we cannot truthfully hold the workers' feet to the fire, for it is their church to do whatsoever they want to do...if they want to run all the friends out and esp. those with large families, then go and they will be the ones who will be wondering in a short 20 yrs or so "Where's the beef or the financial support."
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Post by sharonw on Sept 11, 2011 20:58:11 GMT -5
Alexander, I have a lot of trouble believing that any one would stick with a system that apparently is often found doing what you're accusing it of doing and there being no real resolution tactics ever known to be used by that system...that you'd just sit there taking all of the whatever ESPECIALLY with underaged children who's whole outlook of the system that they go to worship in has been formed by this so very radical down-spiraling treatment.....I don't think it is wise to keep children under that kind of "formative religious upbringing." But true, they are your children and you will face them supposedly all the rest of YOUR life and most of theirs and you willl see problems down the road. The fierce upright upbringing of the 2x2 system is alone enough to turn children into anti-christians much less being a constant victim of such carryings on that they've had to for the past 2 years....course you can say, "Well we've made it for the past two years without a hitch, so we'll keep on." I'd have to ask "How many of those 15 children are foster children?" That alone can bring you down lower then your knees should any case worker find out the "atmosphere" in which these children have had to face simply because "dad wills it so".....and there are the other children to be considered as well...is a neighbor or one of the friends or one of the workers going to possibly call the authorities in regard to this atmospheric pressure? Think of all of it, and I suppose you'll say you have...but I feel deep in my soul that you're setting your whole family up for some kind of negative whiplash in all of this... Either remove your family from it or apologize to the 2 overseers for your part in any negative things, and settle down and let it go.....and continue on in the fellowship....the only one who is going to have to give is yourself...it's give-in to the offending workers or give up and move on out of the fellowship...there are other churches who have home mtgs. and Nathan says there are other churches who go out 2x2..... I don't see alexander as a proponent of and administering the "fierce upright upbringing of the 2x2 system. I haven't the faintest idea as to where you have read that from his posts. If anything, he is very diligent in giving his foster kids who have had traumatic experiences in their young lives, the best treatment available, even when it goes against common upbringing for kids who have not experienced such. I'm also sure the children's agencies involved are very aware of the love for kids in alexander's home and his interest in providing the best for them. His kids are well behaved and thriving under alexander's parentage. Why argue with success? I use the name 'alexander' and 'his', but there's obviously a virtuous woman involved in this too. Ronhall, I was not saying it was Alexander and his wife I was talking about that which the workers expect the 2x2 friends to teach their family....not every parent teaches the strict 2x2 ness, but Alexander is very impressed with that "reserved" life and I'm not saying it isn't alife to not want...but I'm going by what a lot of people who've posted on TMB that have said how much they hated the expected things for children to accomodate in their young lives. I also have seen this happen when Children are held back from the more "worldly" things available and "all their friends are doing it or into it" causes bitterness in a lot of 2x2 raised children.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Sept 11, 2011 20:59:46 GMT -5
Just how far does one push the workers' authority? I think Scott has said on here more then once, "It is the workers' church, either fit in with them or if that isn't for you, then get out." Seems a reasonable expectation since it IS the workers' church....the whole 2x2 system is for the workers and workers only....the friends are nothing more then serfs in a serfdom and cannot nor should not question any worker and as Dale Shultz said "even if he is wrong." And I think that pretty well should make all of us know that we cannot truthfully hold the workers' feet to the fire, for it is their church to do whatsoever they want to do...if they want to run all the friends out and esp. those with large families, then go and they will be the ones who will be wondering in a short 20 yrs or so "Where's the beef or the financial support." I agree!
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Post by sharonw on Sept 11, 2011 21:04:05 GMT -5
I have noted in several posts you have made in this thread that "excommunication" is mentioned. Do you believe that you would be more justified in leaving the system if you were excommunicated than to leave of your own accord? Sometimes it's easier to have the decision made for us. It would take away our guilt or keep us from feeling that our exit would be a rejection or judgement of all those we leave behind. I too, struggled with the decision but knew it would be liberating and more spiritually healthy to acknowledge that staying in would only compromise my peace of mind. This is an interesting observation, dlb. I too thought I would be "exed," and perhaps hoped for it, as I would not have been required to make the decision. But making the decision was indeed liberating, and it is likely a strength to me now to have made that decision on my own. I doubt few of us exes found the "leaving" all that easy to decide....esp. those of us b&r'd for it is all any of us have rightly known and to face the unknown and face that which has been consistently indoctrinated into us about outside the fellowship is sure death and disaster....but I feel God leads all of us to that point to "have to make that choice" on our own and perhaps this IS the Holy Spirit leading the workers to "not excommunicate" someone but pour the negative feedback from one by one until there is NO more appetite for the 2x2 fellowship. JMO
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Post by alexander on Sept 11, 2011 22:50:42 GMT -5
Alexander, it seems that you don't want anyone in the work hurt over this and to some extent I respect you for this spirit. My comments to you are brother to brother and out of deep concern for your spiritual and mental well-being and for that of your family. You should never leave because you are forced out but rather should leave because you are led out. I have noted in several posts you have made in this thread that "excommunication" is mentioned. Do you believe that you would be more justified in leaving the system if you were excommunicated than to leave of your own accord? Sometimes it's easier to have the decision made for us. It would take away our guilt or keep us from feeling that our exit would be a rejection or judgement of all those we leave behind. I too, struggled with the decision but knew it would be liberating and more spiritually healthy to acknowledge that staying in would only compromise my peace of mind. I feel for your position but encourage you to lay this before God and trust that your feelings of concern are likely a result of the Holy Spirit working in your life. While the 2x2 system may "appear" to be a great system to raise children in because there are some expectations of conforming to moral standards (and even this is not always the case) there are other churches outside of the 2x2 fellowship that offer an equally positive spiritual and moral atmosphere for children. Unfortunately, there has been an attempt to convince the members of the fellowship that this is not the case and to wander outside of the confines of the group would mean certain spiritual death or disaster. I trust that things will work out according to God's will. I do not wish to be ex'd. But, I will not be devastated if it happens. I am writing of our experiences with their shunning and politics to help the workers, not hurt them. If they feel that excommunication is the just and Godly course, then so be it. We will then move on to greener pastures.
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Post by dlb5674 on Sept 11, 2011 23:05:32 GMT -5
Alexander, it seems that you don't want anyone in the work hurt over this and to some extent I respect you for this spirit. My comments to you are brother to brother and out of deep concern for your spiritual and mental well-being and for that of your family. You should never leave because you are forced out but rather should leave because you are led out. I have noted in several posts you have made in this thread that "excommunication" is mentioned. Do you believe that you would be more justified in leaving the system if you were excommunicated than to leave of your own accord? Sometimes it's easier to have the decision made for us. It would take away our guilt or keep us from feeling that our exit would be a rejection or judgement of all those we leave behind. I too, struggled with the decision but knew it would be liberating and more spiritually healthy to acknowledge that staying in would only compromise my peace of mind. I feel for your position but encourage you to lay this before God and trust that your feelings of concern are likely a result of the Holy Spirit working in your life. While the 2x2 system may "appear" to be a great system to raise children in because there are some expectations of conforming to moral standards (and even this is not always the case) there are other churches outside of the 2x2 fellowship that offer an equally positive spiritual and moral atmosphere for children. Unfortunately, there has been an attempt to convince the members of the fellowship that this is not the case and to wander outside of the confines of the group would mean certain spiritual death or disaster. I trust that things will work out according to God's will. I do not wish to be ex'd. But, I will not be devastated if it happens. I am writing of our experiences with their shunning and politics to help the workers, not hurt them. If they feel that excommunication is the just and Godly course, then so be it. We will then move on to greener pastures. I see. When time permits, I'll have to read your posts to get a better understanding of your experiences. Everyone has a different perspective based on personal experiences.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Sept 11, 2011 23:08:41 GMT -5
I do not wish to be ex'd. But, I will not be devastated if it happens. I am writing of our experiences with their shunning and politics to help the workers, not hurt them. If they feel that excommunication is the just and Godly course, then so be it. We will then move on to greener pastures. Numerous ones of us can look back and tell you "I felt that way too," or give you advice on what to do, but you basically have to do what each of us did - work through it as well as you can, prayerfully doing what seems best according to your understanding. You will likely look back - as many of us do - and wonder why we didn't understand some things sooner, and you'll feel like, "Now I see what they were saying." But, none of these lessons become "yours" without you grappling with the situation and making your own choices . . . so, it won't be "I told you so," but more like welcoming someone who has also courageously taken a step we once had to take as well. I'm reminded of a hike we took several times on the island of Pohnpei (I used this as a parable in gospel meetings too!) - It was to the top of Sokehs Rock (here in my FB photos: www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1879436504198.2109006.1189849028 - there was a spot where we had to climb a tree, stand in a fork in the tree, reach around with the left hand and grab a certain knob on the rock, which we couldn't see, and then swing our weight to place the left foot on a small ledge they told us was there, on the cliff face, but which we couldn't see. It wasn't so far to the ground right there, but we were looking way out over the town and harbor, and for those of us with a fear of heights, it was terrifying . . . John Mastin and I hung up there for quite awhile, with Harry Henninger (my companion at the time) and Chuck Morris already up there, encouraging us on. But we had to make the step! And once we made it, it all seemed so easy . . . until next time. But there was never any reproach once we made it - just glad we were all up there, heading on to pull ourselves up along the conduit (in my pics). I think we're all a bit like this in watching you, Alexander!
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Post by sharonw on Sept 12, 2011 8:04:22 GMT -5
Alexander, I have a lot of trouble believing that any one would stick with a system that apparently is often found doing what you're accusing it of doing and there being no real resolution tactics ever known to be used by that system...that you'd just sit there taking all of the whatever ESPECIALLY with underaged children who's whole outlook of the system that they go to worship in has been formed by this so very radical down-spiraling treatment.....I don't think it is wise to keep children under that kind of "formative religious upbringing." But true, they are your children and you will face them supposedly all the rest of YOUR life and most of theirs and you willl see problems down the road. The fierce upright upbringing of the 2x2 system is alone enough to turn children into anti-christians much less being a constant victim of such carryings on that they've had to for the past 2 years....course you can say, "Well we've made it for the past two years without a hitch, so we'll keep on." I'd have to ask "How many of those 15 children are foster children?" That alone can bring you down lower then your knees should any case worker find out the "atmosphere" in which these children have had to face simply because "dad wills it so".....and there are the other children to be considered as well...is a neighbor or one of the friends or one of the workers going to possibly call the authorities in regard to this atmospheric pressure? Think of all of it, and I suppose you'll say you have...but I feel deep in my soul that you're setting your whole family up for some kind of negative whiplash in all of this... Either remove your family from it or apologize to the 2 overseers for your part in any negative things, and settle down and let it go.....and continue on in the fellowship....the only one who is going to have to give is yourself...it's give-in to the offending workers or give up and move on out of the fellowship...there are other churches who have home mtgs. and Nathan says there are other churches who go out 2x2..... The 2x2 system is a great system to raise children. I am so glad for all of the positive and Godly influences from the many workers and friends that have helped me and that have been such a blessing in the lives of our family. I may be leaving this fellowship soon enough. I do have a time in mind, but it won't be because I feel threatened , but because I will know that it is time.[/quote] I;m greatly thankful that you are able to say this muchless do it...I think all of us that had intended our profession was for a lifetime have had to get to this point. I understand how hard it is to finally get it that God is leading us in places and ways we've never gone before and it IS frightening and hard to do anything but try to hold on to what we've known and have had some pleasure in....but then God does lead people into things in which He knows we can handle but not without His endurance and wisdom in us.
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Post by emy on Sept 12, 2011 15:19:31 GMT -5
Alexander, I have a lot of trouble believing that any one would stick with a system that apparently is often found doing what you're accusing it of doing and there being no real resolution tactics ever known to be used by that system...that you'd just sit there taking all of the whatever ESPECIALLY with underaged children who's whole outlook of the system that they go to worship in has been formed by this so very radical down-spiraling treatment.....I don't think it is wise to keep children under that kind of "formative religious upbringing." But true, they are your children and you will face them supposedly all the rest of YOUR life and most of theirs and you willl see problems down the road. The fierce upright upbringing of the 2x2 system is alone enough to turn children into anti-christians much less being a constant victim of such carryings on that they've had to for the past 2 years....course you can say, "Well we've made it for the past two years without a hitch, so we'll keep on." I'd have to ask "How many of those 15 children are foster children?" That alone can bring you down lower then your knees should any case worker find out the "atmosphere" in which these children have had to face simply because "dad wills it so".....and there are the other children to be considered as well...is a neighbor or one of the friends or one of the workers going to possibly call the authorities in regard to this atmospheric pressure? Think of all of it, and I suppose you'll say you have...but I feel deep in my soul that you're setting your whole family up for some kind of negative whiplash in all of this... Either remove your family from it or apologize to the 2 overseers for your part in any negative things, and settle down and let it go.....and continue on in the fellowship....the only one who is going to have to give is yourself...it's give-in to the offending workers or give up and move on out of the fellowship...there are other churches who have home mtgs. and Nathan says there are other churches who go out 2x2..... The 2x2 system is a great system to raise children. I am so glad for all of the positive and Godly influences from the many workers and friends that have helped me and that have been such a blessing in the lives of our family. I may be leaving this fellowship soon enough. I do have a time in mind, but it won't be because I feel threatened, but because I will know that it is time. I think once awhile back you posted a picture of your family (children). Would you be willing to do that again? I think people would see a great bunch of normal-looking kids. I'm also wondering if there is more than one meeting in the field where you live? I know that at least one meeting didn't work for you - the one with your mother in it - but are there others? Have you been prevented from going to them? Have you asked for a meeting assignment that would not include your mother's meeting?
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Post by alexander on Sept 12, 2011 19:35:53 GMT -5
I think once awhile back you posted a picture of your family (children). Would you be willing to do that again? I think people would see a great bunch of normal-looking kids. I'm also wondering if there is more than one meeting in the field where you live? I know that at least one meeting didn't work for you - the one with your mother in it - but are there others? Have you been prevented from going to them? Have you asked for a meeting assignment that would not include your mother's meeting? I may post a photo (along with our testimony) once we are officially excommunicated or continue to be without a meeting. Regarding your questions regarding other meetings- yes, there are other meetings that we could attend. One less then 5 miles from the one that we had been attending. But the overseer gave me a very preposterous answer as to why we couldn't go there. It was even more preposterous then his answer as to why we were removed from meeting. Both reasons were non-sensical and I will refrain from posting his reasons, for now- in kindness to him.
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Post by JO on Sept 12, 2011 19:53:07 GMT -5
So the overseer gave you a very preposterous answer as to why you couldn't go to the meeting less then 5 miles from the one that you've been attending.
Did he suggest which meeting he would like you to attend?
Or is he hoping you'll come to the conclusion that you're not wanted, so you'll "take yourself out" and become a "bitter ex" without him taking responsibility for having booted you?
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Post by alexander on Sept 12, 2011 20:14:33 GMT -5
So the overseer gave you a very preposterous answer as to why you couldn't go to the meeting less then 5 miles from the one that you've been attending. Did he suggest which meeting he would like you to attend? Or is he hoping you'll come to the conclusion that you're not wanted, so you'll "take yourself out" and become a "bitter ex" without him taking responsibility for having booted you? Right. I specifically asked what meeting that he planned for us to attend. . . and he didn't know of one. I can only assume that he thought that we would take the hint and just walk off. But love doesn't walk off so easily, does it? I don't think that the overseers get it- we love them even though they shunned us. We love the friends that were misled by false gossip because. . . well, they were misled by false gossip. I love my parents. . . I understand where they are coming from (even though I don't agree with them.) We understand that RAD is a complicated subject and that things are not always as they appear with RAD children. We get it. But, still, God is the one that we serve. And our lights are not to be hid, or put under a bushel or under a bed, but on a candlestick. And what did Jesus say makes a Christian different then a Pharisee? If we can love those that are despitefully abusing us. Anyone can be nice and pleasant when folks are nice and pleasant to us. Now is when rubber is meeting the road, and I see no need to run from those that I love. It isn't the Christian thing to do. But, having said that, I do have a time frame in mind, a simple litmus test, for "knowing" when it is time to leave. We can't force fellowship, and we realize that.
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Post by ronhall on Sept 12, 2011 20:39:39 GMT -5
You could have countered with, "Since you don't know of a meeting we can attend, my wife and I will check and when we find one, we'll let you know so you can update your list." :>)
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Post by imnx2 on Sept 12, 2011 20:47:03 GMT -5
So the overseer gave you a very preposterous answer as to why you couldn't go to the meeting less then 5 miles from the one that you've been attending. Did he suggest which meeting he would like you to attend? Or is he hoping you'll come to the conclusion that you're not wanted, so you'll "take yourself out" and become a "bitter ex" without him taking responsibility for having booted you? Right. I specifically asked what meeting that he planned for us to attend. . . and he didn't know of one... He might like you to go to the out of state one now, but he messed that up...he and that other overseer.
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Post by JO on Sept 12, 2011 21:10:39 GMT -5
You could have countered with, "Since you don't know of a meeting we can attend, my wife and I will check and when we find one, we'll let you know so you can update your list." :>) That's what I would have suggested. Does your mother know that you're without a meeting, or would she be happy for you to leave the fellowship? Ask around. You will need somewhere with a large meeting room or a small number attending because of the size of your family. Many, perhaps most of the elders will have judged you according to the grapevine dossier and most will want to get permission from the ministry before agreeing to accept you. Try not to let rejection get to you. Its a case of "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".
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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Sept 12, 2011 21:27:49 GMT -5
Hey alexander - praying that you have the strength to do God's will, whatever that is for you and your family.
God will bless the kind people here providing helpful advice. I don't wish to leave anyone out but JO and ronhall, your recent kind comments have also helped me...
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Post by sharonw on Sept 12, 2011 21:47:37 GMT -5
I was wondering if the overseer would allow you to have a "worker sanctioned" meeting in your own home....as it's been said on here to do with an elder coming in for a time and maybe another couple...but keeping the congregation small due to your own large family....course I know you do have your own mtgs. but I'm talking about worker-sanctioned ones.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2011 21:48:28 GMT -5
So the overseer gave you a very preposterous answer as to why you couldn't go to the meeting less then 5 miles from the one that you've been attending. Did he suggest which meeting he would like you to attend? Or is he hoping you'll come to the conclusion that you're not wanted, so you'll "take yourself out" and become a "bitter ex" without him taking responsibility for having booted you? Right. I specifically asked what meeting that he planned for us to attend. . . and he didn't know of one. I can only assume that he thought that we would take the hint and just walk off. But love doesn't walk off so easily, does it? I don't think that the overseers get it- we love them even though they shunned us. We love the friends that were misled by false gossip because. . . well, they were misled by false gossip. I love my parents. . . I understand where they are coming from (even though I don't agree with them.) We understand that RAD is a complicated subject and that things are not always as they appear with RAD children. We get it. But, still, God is the one that we serve. And our lights are not to be hid, or put under a bushel or under a bed, but on a candlestick. And what did Jesus say makes a Christian different then a Pharisee? If we can love those that are despitefully abusing us. Anyone can be nice and pleasant when folks are nice and pleasant to us. Now is when rubber is meeting the road, and I see no need to run from those that I love. It isn't the Christian thing to do. But, having said that, I do have a time frame in mind, a simple litmus test, for "knowing" when it is time to leave. We can't force fellowship, and we realize that. I hadn't realized that you had been forbidden to go to the out of state meeting but not reassigned to another meeting in the state. So you attend no fellowship meeting at all right now? FYI, that's how the workers handled Edgar Massey in Sweden.......took his meeting away, told him he couldn't attend where it was relocated, then refused to assign him to a new meeting. I like ronhall and JO's advice. However, I can predict how it will go from there. It's looking to me like your hope that the issue is all about RAD and can be solved on that basis is now slim to none. The issue has now moved on to worker obedience (ie "authority"). And making matters more difficult, I think your understanding of worker authority is different (but correct) than what workers and friends understand it. You see it as the power of God's truth(or something close to that)..... they see it as workers' right to judge and command.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2011 21:50:11 GMT -5
I was wondering if the overseer would allow you to have a "worker sanctioned" meeting in your own home....as it's been said on here to do with an elder coming in for a time and maybe another couple...but keeping the congregation small due to your own large family....course I know you do have your own mtgs. but I'm talking about worker-sanctioned ones. Since I am in the prediction mode tonight Sharon, I can predict how that suggestion will go too! I've seen too many of these movies and they all have the same script!
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Post by sharonw on Sept 12, 2011 22:13:54 GMT -5
Yeh! With the moon being full, about anything might get said, but rarely done! lah!
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Post by JO on Sept 12, 2011 22:35:57 GMT -5
Alexander, when you're next in contact with the ministry, why not ask for a summary of what they require from you?
There seems to be a lack of clarity around that.
It may be that the fellowship is simply not suitable for a large family that includes foster children and a couple of RAD children.
If that is the case, it might be best for both parties to accept that and part as friends.
PS: Another possibility is that your rejection of the exclusivity god is unacceptable to the friends and workers in your area. If they're honest they'll tell you what their problem is with you.
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