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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 9, 2011 14:42:50 GMT -5
I suppose I should have mentioned that I voted 'yes' to excommunication. (based on the premise that I would be acting as an overseer, and further that I would be acting as your current overseer.) The reason is simple. Right now you, your wife and 4 of the children are professing members of the truth fellowship As such, you are in the unique position of actually being willing to take a stand against spiritual bullying. That looks baaaaaad for the overseers. They can't (or are unwilling to) take care of the situation. By simply giving you and the rest of the family the number 11 boot on the butt they can simply relegate you to the 'bitter', unwilling', 'lost out' and whatever other catch words they use these days to distance themselves from someone who is on the 'outside'. Pretty sad. However, there are a whole bunch of great Christian churches that would really like to increase their youth groups out there. They would welcome your family with open arms and hearts and show great care for your spiritual well-being. Scott
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Post by imnx2 on Sept 9, 2011 14:56:55 GMT -5
Did the overseer of your 'field' give you permission or did an overseer overstep his dominion and do that which was not his to do? The overseer of my field did not give me permission to change meetings. It was the overseer of another state that invited us to that meeting. He in kindness invited us, as I had written him explaining to him that we couldn't go to our current meeting (at the time) anymore due to the interference with our RAD children and the current overseers endorsement of that interference. Again, he in kindness wanted us to have a meeting to attend, so we were invited across state lines (the horror!) to go to meeting. And it was lovely and a great oasis for my family each Sunday morning. Those elders and friends (they had 2 elders) will be rewarded handsomely in eternity for the cups of cold water that they gave us. (One of the friends from that meeting went on to his reward this week.) But, even that overseer, quickly turned against us (without telling us why and denying that he has a problem with us) and we are not "welcome" in his state anymore. I wonder if second overseer apologized to the first overseer. My guess would be he did. He had no right to extend that kindness/curtesy to you. That is not in his dominion to do. I think an overseer would know that. Perhaps he had something against first overseer. No matter, he simply did not see it through. He stepped out of line.
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Post by imnx2 on Sept 9, 2011 14:59:13 GMT -5
...However, there are a whole bunch of great Christian churches that would really like to increase their youth groups out there.... Shhhh. Did you hear that. Someone commented, "Yup, the worldly churches are all about numbers." Ah, word play.
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 9, 2011 15:11:34 GMT -5
"Yup, the worldly churches are all about numbers."Ha!! Actually you are right with that statement. Most churches continue to try to find ways to take the gospel message to all the world and carry out the Great Commission. As far as youth groups, it is a real positive experience for kids to be able to gather together with other Christian kids for fellowship and also for fun. I know that the youth group in our church (which would almost double in size with Alexander's group joining) have really impressed me with their maturity and understanding of what it means to be Christian kids. They are way more knowledgeable of scripture than the professing kids that I grew up with that is for sure, and they are great to be around. So, yep!!!! Most Christian churches are about numbers. (and not really numbers as to how many join their particular church) Scott
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2011 15:15:31 GMT -5
"Yup, the worldly churches are all about Numbers."
Actually, I think quite a few read the New Testament too.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 9, 2011 15:33:41 GMT -5
Did the overseer of your 'field' give you permission or did an overseer overstep his dominion and do that which was not his to do? The overseer of my field did not give me permission to change meetings. It was the overseer of another state that invited us to that meeting. He in kindness invited us, as I had written him explaining to him that we couldn't go to our current meeting (at the time) anymore due to the interference with our RAD children and the current overseers endorsement of that interference. Again, he in kindness wanted us to have a meeting to attend, so we were invited across state lines (the horror!) to go to meeting. And it was lovely and a great oasis for my family each Sunday morning. Those elders and friends (they had 2 elders) will be rewarded handsomely in eternity for the cups of cold water that they gave us. (One of the friends from that meeting went on to his reward this week.) But, even that overseer, quickly turned against us (without telling us why and denying that he has a problem with us) and we are not "welcome" in his state anymore. Sorry. I don't mean to be dense. Does that mean only that they are not as welcoming any longer, or does that mean that you all are no longer allowed to attend the meeting across state line?
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Post by StAnne on Sept 9, 2011 15:37:22 GMT -5
...However, there are a whole bunch of great Christian churches that would really like to increase their youth groups out there.... Shhhh. Did you hear that. Someone commented, "Yup, the worldly churches are all about numbers." Ah, word play. Yes but in a good way. They don't generally take issue with large families as we read may be having some bearing on the manner in which alexander's family is being thought of?
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Post by melissa71 on Sept 9, 2011 15:40:43 GMT -5
Alexander,
I echo Scott's invitation. I wish you lived around here-- any of the churches in our little town would welcome you and your family with open arms.
What is it that keeps you going to meetings? What prevents you from exploring other Bible based Christian churches to see where is a good fit for your family to worship God? I'm just curious and if it is more than you want to explain to all...you are welcome to PM me.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 9, 2011 15:46:49 GMT -5
Just for the record -- I have not cast a vote in the poll.
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Post by JO on Sept 9, 2011 16:10:25 GMT -5
Yes, we have been so isolated and demonized, you would think that the workers would believe that we have been "excommunicated" enough. But, since we haven't gotten the hint, and still love the friends and workers, and we still go to meeting and enjoy our little Sunday morning meeting and neither of the elders and no one has ever complained to us about being unruly or disrespectful. So what is the problem? If workers and overseers shun you, so what? If people who you thought were friends shun you, they are proving to be "fair weather friends". Appreciate your real friends even more. If your Sunday AM meeting is working for you, appreciate it and stick with it. We are only human and its hard when the grapevine dossier is full of lies, but a policy that works for me is: Appreciate those workers and friends who want to be friendly. Don't fret over workers and friends who don't want to be friendly, but leave the door open in case they come to their senses one day. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Romans 12:18-21 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
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Post by quizzer on Sept 9, 2011 16:34:09 GMT -5
I don't think that you will be excommunicated by your current overseer, or any overseer for that matter, alexander. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that excommuication is reserved for workers, or anyone in an influential position in the fellowship. You've been spiritually killed, so any influence you might have had in the meetings is gone.
Your spiritual killing is quite useful for your overseer. The overseer just has to be a bit disdainful to you and your family now and then, and the friends will avoid you and your family so that they can retain the overseer's favor. In essence, you've been excommunicated by the spiritual killing, and are a visible reminder of what happens when you've displeased an overseer. Why remove such a powerful reminder?
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Post by emy on Sept 9, 2011 16:39:53 GMT -5
Alexander I disagree with you that the workers would have NO reason to excommunicate your family...I suspect they'd more then likely excommunicate you but leave the rest in the mtgs. We'll see. My service is unto the Lord, and not the workers. As hymn 325 says very plainly: "Not unto men I labour, not unto men I pray, But in Thy sight, Lord Jesus, I walk the lowly way; And unto mine own Master, I either stand or fall: What men have said about me- that will not count at all.My service is unto Thee, to Thee, My service is unto Thee; Through sorrow or pain, through loss or gain, My service is unto Thee." and the 2nd verse as well: "Lord, may my steps be ordered By Thing in-dwelling love, True to Thy life's example, True to Thy will above. . ." from Hymns Old and New R.L. Allan and Son Publishers Compiliation Copyright 1987 Pocock & Martin
I applaud your courage. Don't give up on sitting down to talk it over.
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Post by ronhall on Sept 9, 2011 16:44:43 GMT -5
People around the world are reading about your situation here on the TMB, and while there are workers out there that are sympathetic to your plight and encourage you to continue in the fellowship, these two guys really have no concern what all the friends and exes are reading about them. This is a fairly common occurrence, and it is actually becoming even more common as more people are reading and sharing what is posted here and elsewhere on the internet. So true. Just yesterday evening I was on the phone discussing some unrelated things (mostly about a suspension problem he was having with his pickup truck) with a professing fellow in Texas when he, seemingly out of the blue, asked if I knew anything about an Alexander in Alabama. Apparently some who have been placed in positions of responsibility and authority believe they are authorized and have the ability to operate in a vacuum. Most of the Kings in the Old Testament thought that too. But a record was being kept. Yes, a record is still being kept today -- and being kept in 'real time' compliments of TMB and the internet. As for me, I am deeply saddened and ashamed. Sorry. :>(
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Post by Gene on Sept 9, 2011 19:55:33 GMT -5
I voted "no" -- I would not excommunicate you if I were an overseer of the ilk I was during my pre-rebellion years in the work.
But on second thought, if I were an overseer for a day, tomorrow, with my current frame of mind, I just might excommunicate you and your family, the whole lot. I think it would allow you to get on with your life in a Christian fellowship that is more suitable, and the uproar it may cause may actually be good for the church in the long run.
Of course, that's all under the assumption that I can be overseer for the day and only the day and leave others to clean up the mess that my actions of one day cause!
G
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Post by pinky on Sept 9, 2011 21:25:37 GMT -5
Why are so many would-be overseers toeing the party line, and so willing to excommunicate to preserve the system? Are some indicating that given a little authority, they'd sell their soul to the institution and ditch kindness, compassion and integrity?! The system stinks, yet so many would be prepared to uphold it as it currently stands? It seems some are saying they would do wrong to another, because their peers are doing exactly that, or the system demands that. Heaven help us!
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Sept 9, 2011 22:07:21 GMT -5
Why are so many would-be overseers toeing the party line, and so willing to excommunicate to preserve the system? Are some indicating that given a little authority, they'd sell their soul to the institution and ditch kindness, compassion and integrity?! The system stinks, yet so many would be prepared to uphold it as it currently stands? It seems some are saying they would do wrong to another, because their peers are doing exactly that, or the system demands that. Heaven help us! I think it would help if we wouldn't draw a sharp line at "overseer." A younger brother worker gradually grows into this, and the sisters gradually grow into their supportive roles as well. I have seen numerous young workers - open, wanting to communicate and help people - eventually kind of "cave in," and began quoting "party lines." It has nearly made me cry to see my friends doing this, beginning to "talk in circles," when they had at one time seemed to be so open. But I think the decision point came for each of us, and some of us could no longer be there . . .
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Post by sharonw on Sept 9, 2011 23:08:24 GMT -5
You will be considered a threat to the system on a few counts. Here's some I can think of offhand: 1.Unity It is expected that people say or do nothing which would affect the unity of the group or the appearance of unity of the group. It really doesn't matter if what you bring up is true or just.....if no one wants to fix it, you are just destroying unity by bringing it up. 2.Esteem them highly for their work's sake This is one of your biggest threats. By challenging the greatest workers (the overseers) in an error of theirs, you are not showing esteem for them. Most people recognize that worker-esteem is one of the foundations of the system and if that breaks down and workers become despised or the butt of jokes, the whole system will break down. You are threatening that foundation. 3.Don't "disturb the meeting" This is huge and is one of the most common causes of excommunication. If people in your meeting feel disturbed by your presence (or the presence of your children), they will start excomm procedures against you. Generally though it won't be against your children, it will really take flight if you are viewed as being against the workers. I'm surprised they haven't excommunicated you yet. I suspect that it hasn't happened yet because you are being supported by the meeting you attend. If one or two there turn against you and the elder backs off actively supporting you.....you're toast. It all sounds a bit crude and I suppose it is, but it's real life from my observations. I voted "Yes" and I'm only going by what is plainly evident the overseers involved are feeling...they're feeling that Alexander and family are posing a very real and unsolvable problem to the overseers as well the whole perception of the workership and mtgs. Made me think of what God did to Pharoah in Joseph's day....God kept hardening Pharoah's heart until Pharoah was fully willing and actually couldn't wait for the children of Israel to leave Egypt. God told Pharoah "I've made you what you are and it will glorify my name." Sound anything like what's going on here?
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Post by sharonw on Sept 9, 2011 23:15:11 GMT -5
Alexander, I echo Scott's invitation. I wish you lived around here-- any of the churches in our little town would welcome you and your family with open arms. What is it that keeps you going to meetings? What prevents you from exploring other Bible based Christian churches to see where is a good fit for your family to worship God? I'm just curious and if it is more than you want to explain to all...you are welcome to PM me. I can assure Alexander that if he and his family do decide to "test' churches outside the fellowship that IF he carefully and with some time visit churches all around him and he will find out that there is a church that "fits" him and his family....and they should not feel that it is a bad thing to "not fit" in some church. There occasionally people who feel comfortable in about any Christian church, but not all...but I was amazed when I finally found one I could "fit" in with.....I had actually desired to go to a Baptist church just a couple blocks from the retirement center and I went there quite a bit, but though I enjoyed the sermon, and the singing, I just didn't feel like I fit. It's kind of like putting on shoes and though they all might be the right size, the feel in them is not right and that is bec ause of the individual's makeup.
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Post by sharonw on Sept 9, 2011 23:23:35 GMT -5
Why are so many would-be overseers toeing the party line, and so willing to excommunicate to preserve the system? Are some indicating that given a little authority, they'd sell their soul to the institution and ditch kindness, compassion and integrity?! The system stinks, yet so many would be prepared to uphold it as it currently stands? It seems some are saying they would do wrong to another, because their peers are doing exactly that, or the system demands that. Heaven help us! I think it would help if we wouldn't draw a sharp line at "overseer." A younger brother worker gradually grows into this, and the sisters gradually grow into their supportive roles as well. I have seen numerous young workers - open, wanting to communicate and help people - eventually kind of "cave in," and began quoting "party lines." It has nearly made me cry to see my friends doing this, beginning to "talk in circles," when they had at one time seemed to be so open. But I think the decision point came for each of us, and some of us could no longer be there . . . Is there any other way for the young growing older workers to do in order to stay in the work? Now considering we have 4th and 5th generation from inception workers, perhaps looking back at each generation going totally in the same direction as present generation, then we know that it is nothing more then a vicious circle...the older ones carry the power, the young ones carry the ideals, and the middling ones have loearned to temper their ideals nearly to the point of not having any and taking on the mindset of the elder ones and again here we go..back around the circle of worker development. I think this is what uneducated ministers get into...they don't have the sociology and pyschology training that a lot of ministers do and they just cannot handle things that are adverse to them individually and collectively either....stunted growth? Perhaps.
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Post by donjuan on Sept 9, 2011 23:35:37 GMT -5
I voted no but knowing what i know today i wouldn't be a 2x2/they probably wouldn't want a know it all like myself anyway
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Post by alexander on Sept 9, 2011 23:42:13 GMT -5
The overseer of my field did not give me permission to change meetings. It was the overseer of another state that invited us to that meeting. He in kindness invited us, as I had written him explaining to him that we couldn't go to our current meeting (at the time) anymore due to the interference with our RAD children and the current overseers endorsement of that interference. Again, he in kindness wanted us to have a meeting to attend, so we were invited across state lines (the horror!) to go to meeting. And it was lovely and a great oasis for my family each Sunday morning. Those elders and friends (they had 2 elders) will be rewarded handsomely in eternity for the cups of cold water that they gave us. (One of the friends from that meeting went on to his reward this week.) But, even that overseer, quickly turned against us (without telling us why and denying that he has a problem with us) and we are not "welcome" in his state anymore. Sorry. I don't mean to be dense. Does that mean only that they are not as welcoming any longer, or does that mean that you all are no longer allowed to attend the meeting across state line? We are no longer allowed to attend the meeting across the state line.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 9, 2011 23:50:29 GMT -5
Sorry. I don't mean to be dense. Does that mean only that they are not as welcoming any longer, or does that mean that you all are no longer allowed to attend the meeting across state line? We are no longer allowed to attend the meeting across the state line. Is your only f&w option to return to your originally assigned meeting, or is that also no longer an option?
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Post by alexander on Sept 10, 2011 7:19:10 GMT -5
Alexander, I echo Scott's invitation. I wish you lived around here-- any of the churches in our little town would welcome you and your family with open arms. What is it that keeps you going to meetings? What prevents you from exploring other Bible based Christian churches to see where is a good fit for your family to worship God? I'm just curious and if it is more than you want to explain to all...you are welcome to PM me. I can assure Alexander that if he and his family do decide to "test' churches outside the fellowship that IF he carefully and with some time visit churches all around him and he will find out that there is a church that "fits" him and his family....and they should not feel that it is a bad thing to "not fit" in some church. There occasionally people who feel comfortable in about any Christian church, but not all...but I was amazed when I finally found one I could "fit" in with.....I had actually desired to go to a Baptist church just a couple blocks from the retirement center and I went there quite a bit, but though I enjoyed the sermon, and the singing, I just didn't feel like I fit. It's kind of like putting on shoes and though they all might be the right size, the feel in them is not right and that is bec ause of the individual's makeup. I have not doubt that what you write is true. I simply do not feel drawn to leave the 2x2 system. If we are excommunicated/not given a meeting to attend, then I will begin visiting other denominations and will report on the Spirit in attendance (or lack, thereof) and the love of the people.
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Post by alexander on Sept 10, 2011 7:29:53 GMT -5
If your Sunday AM meeting is working for you, appreciate it and stick with it. I wish we could.
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Post by sharonw on Sept 10, 2011 12:54:38 GMT -5
The overseer of my field did not give me permission to change meetings. It was the overseer of another state that invited us to that meeting. He in kindness invited us, as I had written him explaining to him that we couldn't go to our current meeting (at the time) anymore due to the interference with our RAD children and the current overseers endorsement of that interference. Again, he in kindness wanted us to have a meeting to attend, so we were invited across state lines (the horror!) to go to meeting. And it was lovely and a great oasis for my family each Sunday morning. Those elders and friends (they had 2 elders) will be rewarded handsomely in eternity for the cups of cold water that they gave us. (One of the friends from that meeting went on to his reward this week.) But, even that overseer, quickly turned against us (without telling us why and denying that he has a problem with us) and we are not "welcome" in his state anymore. I wonder if second overseer apologized to the first overseer. My guess would be he did. He had no right to extend that kindness/curtesy to you. That is not in his dominion to do. I think an overseer would know that. Perhaps he had something against first overseer. No matter, he simply did not see it through. He stepped out of line. I think the second overseer actually did something that normally would have been a consultation between him and the first overseer, but the second overseer did not take that "courtesy step" and I think perhaps he's gotten spoken to about that. Seems Alexander will meet nothing but closed doors....Alexander needs to privately talk with Edgar Massey...he can tell you how doors shut and sometimes amazingly fast.....with email as it is today, word goes out real fast when there is a "troublemaker" on the loose....that is very sad, but seems to be very true.
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Post by sharonw on Sept 10, 2011 13:05:26 GMT -5
Sorry. I don't mean to be dense. Does that mean only that they are not as welcoming any longer, or does that mean that you all are no longer allowed to attend the meeting across state line? We are no longer allowed to attend the meeting across the state line. So you're not going to any meeting outside your own home? And yet you want to hang on? Sounds like to me you've already been excommunicated and you don't know it! You may think you could go to a differ part of the US and find a mtg. but I strongly suspect that it wouldn't take long until you would not be welcome in that mtg. The best of elders have bent to the overseers because they know should the go adverse to them that the mtg. will be removed and thus the "elder's testimony" would automatically be tainted. Again, Alexander you've already been excommunicated.
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Post by melissa71 on Sept 10, 2011 13:33:46 GMT -5
I can assure Alexander that if he and his family do decide to "test' churches outside the fellowship that IF he carefully and with some time visit churches all around him and he will find out that there is a church that "fits" him and his family....and they should not feel that it is a bad thing to "not fit" in some church. There occasionally people who feel comfortable in about any Christian church, but not all...but I was amazed when I finally found one I could "fit" in with.....I had actually desired to go to a Baptist church just a couple blocks from the retirement center and I went there quite a bit, but though I enjoyed the sermon, and the singing, I just didn't feel like I fit. It's kind of like putting on shoes and though they all might be the right size, the feel in them is not right and that is bec ause of the individual's makeup. I have not doubt that what you write is true. I simply do not feel drawn to leave the 2x2 system. If we are excommunicated/not given a meeting to attend, then I will begin visiting other denominations and will report on the Spirit in attendance (or lack, thereof) and the love of the people. Personally, we go to several different Christian churches in the area -- and some Sunday's we go up in the mountains to ride horses or hike. I don't feel like you HAVE to be in any church -- and I'm certainly never going to be a member of any denomination ever again. God's bigger than all of it and He's always with me!! I just don't see the point in waiting until you are excommunicated. It is SO worth it to be happy and serve the Lord God without all the distractions/stress you and family are going through currently. I don't ever post on here unless I have prayed first for God to guide my words. For His reasons, He is really laying you and your family on my heart.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2011 14:13:07 GMT -5
Hi Alexander, wonder if you'd like to write up a quick summary of your situation from start to finish? (If you haven't already?) It's just that some of us that have come late to the party have difficulty understanding what is going on. Thanks Yesman
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