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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 10, 2011 14:53:21 GMT -5
Actually, I would say that the best of the elders have refused to allow spiritual abuse to take place within their meeting. At times this means they will get the meeting removed or get excommed (think Alberta). Other times the worker will back off or the situation will be remedied by other workers stepping in and taking charge. Scott
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Post by emy on Sept 10, 2011 16:37:08 GMT -5
Actually, I would say that the best of the elders have refused to allow spiritual abuse to take place within their meeting. At times this means they will get the meeting removed or get excommed (think Alberta). Other times the worker will back off or the situation will be remedied by other workers stepping in and taking charge.Scott And these are the times almost no one knows about. Done quietly with little 'fanfare.'
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Post by ts on Sept 10, 2011 17:01:30 GMT -5
Actually, I would say that the best of the elders have refused to allow spiritual abuse to take place within their meeting. At times this means they will get the meeting removed or get excommed (think Alberta). Other times the worker will back off or the situation will be remedied by other workers stepping in and taking charge.Scott And these are the times almost no one knows about. Done quietly with little 'fanfare.' Then there are the numerous times that the abused friends slip off with little fan fare. Not sure what your point is. The fanfare comes when something is NOT handled by the workers appropriately in the beginning. In Alexander's case, a simple sit down and talk about two years ago would have eliminated the "fan fare". If the workers had been forthcoming with me there would have been no "fan fare" here on the TMB. I was opposed to getting onto the TMB. I had opportunity YEARS ago to get on TMB and tell what was going on while it was ongoing. I thought it best to allow the workers time to get it together and address the matter. I only did the TMB thing when it was obvious that there were no more options and the workers WERE NOT going to actually deal with the matter in a Biblical manner. The TMB is the nearest thing to "bringing the matter to the church".
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msew
Junior Member
Posts: 127
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Post by msew on Sept 10, 2011 17:25:20 GMT -5
Galatians 2: 4And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
5To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
Giving place to legalists, those who want to control, dictate and abuse is not according to scripture. To keep the truth of the Gospel we must not give them place or allow them to influence our walk with God.
Alexander, in my humble opinion the place you and your family are in is not healthy spiritually and you are in spiritual bondage to those who want to control by shunning and ungodly treatment.
Leave them to their abusive ways and let the liberty of Jesus Christ be yours. There is a spiritually safe, secure and wonderful place beyond the Friends and Workers group. I know because I found it and I don't mean a church, I mean a spiritual place.
I just don't understand why you would subject yourself to these people for even an hour! Let go and let God, He will never ever fail you if you just let Him do the work needed to bring you and your precious family peace.
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Post by sharonw on Sept 10, 2011 18:33:56 GMT -5
Galatians 2: 4And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
5To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. Giving place to legalists, those who want to control, dictate and abuse is not according to scripture. To keep the truth of the Gospel we must not give them place or allow them to influence our walk with God. Alexander, in my humble opinion the place you and your family are in is not healthy spiritually and you are in spiritual bondage to those who want to control by shunning and ungodly treatment. Leave them to their abusive ways and let the liberty of Jesus Christ be yours. There is a spiritually safe, secure and wonderful place beyond the Friends and Workers group. I know because I found it and I don't mean a church, I mean a spiritual place. I just don't understand why you would subject yourself to these people for even an hour! Let go and let God, He will never ever fail you if you just let Him do the work needed to bring you and your precious family peace. I agree. Kind of like the surprise I found when finally accepting the truth of what was fruits of darkness within the fellowship and making a solid decision to no longer support the fellowship with my presence much less my financial backing and I told some of the workers/friends exactly that. After having made that kind of inward decision and facing the truth about the fellowship, there was the most surprising feeling of being set free. So I do know just what those verses were saying about being in bondage....the truth will set anyone free.
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Post by ronhall on Sept 10, 2011 18:36:28 GMT -5
Alexander, in my humble opinion the place you and your family are in is not healthy spiritually and you are in spiritual bondage to those who want to control by shunning and ungodly treatment. Leave them to their abusive ways and let the liberty of Jesus Christ be yours. There is a spiritually safe, secure and wonderful place beyond the Friends and Workers group. I know because I found it and I don't mean a church, I mean a spiritual place. I just don't understand why you would subject yourself to these people for even an hour! Let go and let God, He will never ever fail you if you just let Him do the work needed to bring you and your precious family peace. If I understand correctly, he has done just that, presently attending meetings in another state where he and his family are welcomed and respected. He is also not quietly slipping away, but is doing what he can to take care of the original issue by bringing the issue before and keeping the pressure up on TMB. This was a last resort effort after all other options were ineffective. In essence this is equivalent to bringing the issue before the church. It takes a huge amount of courage to take a case this far. The pressure to 'give up' would be overwhelming to most. But Alexander & his wife are looking far into the future and are willing to go to whatever effort is necessary within the church God has placed them to make this right. That's how I read this and I applaud their sincere efforts.
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Post by imnx2 on Sept 10, 2011 18:43:06 GMT -5
If I understand correctly, he has done just that, presently attending meetings in another state where he and his family are welcomed and respected. I think he is banned from attending that meeting.
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Post by ronhall on Sept 10, 2011 19:24:00 GMT -5
Did the overseer of your 'field' give you permission or did an overseer overstep his dominion and do that which was not his to do? The overseer of my field did not give me permission to change meetings. It was the overseer of another state that invited us to that meeting. He in kindness invited us, as I had written him explaining to him that we couldn't go to our current meeting (at the time) anymore due to the interference with our RAD children and the current overseers endorsement of that interference. Again, he in kindness wanted us to have a meeting to attend, so we were invited across state lines (the horror!) to go to meeting. And it was lovely and a great oasis for my family each Sunday morning. Those elders and friends (they had 2 elders) will be rewarded handsomely in eternity for the cups of cold water that they gave us. (One of the friends from that meeting went on to his reward this week.) But, even that overseer, quickly turned against us (without telling us why and denying that he has a problem with us) and we are not "welcome" in his state anymore. Guess you are right, Greg. I did read this, but not carefully enough. I didn't think it had come to this.
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Post by JO on Sept 10, 2011 20:49:20 GMT -5
Sorry. I don't mean to be dense. Does that mean only that they are not as welcoming any longer, or does that mean that you all are no longer allowed to attend the meeting across state line? We are no longer allowed to attend the meeting across the state line. It seems that the overseer who gave you permission to attend across the state line was in error. According to Dale Shultz: A simple understanding that workers recognize the world over is that we don't go into other fields and get involved without the knowledge and sanction of the workers in that field. That applies to the field bordering us, let alone the neighboring province.
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Post by alexander on Sept 11, 2011 8:57:24 GMT -5
Alexander, in my humble opinion the place you and your family are in is not healthy spiritually and you are in spiritual bondage to those who want to control by shunning and ungodly treatment. Leave them to their abusive ways and let the liberty of Jesus Christ be yours. There is a spiritually safe, secure and wonderful place beyond the Friends and Workers group. I know because I found it and I don't mean a church, I mean a spiritual place. I just don't understand why you would subject yourself to these people for even an hour! Let go and let God, He will never ever fail you if you just let Him do the work needed to bring you and your precious family peace. If I understand correctly, he has done just that, presently attending meetings in another state where he and his family are welcomed and respected. He is also not quietly slipping away, but is doing what he can to take care of the original issue by bringing the issue before and keeping the pressure up on TMB. This was a last resort effort after all other options were ineffective. In essence this is equivalent to bringing the issue before the church. It takes a huge amount of courage to take a case this far. The pressure to 'give up' would be overwhelming to most. But Alexander & his wife are looking far into the future and are willing to go to whatever effort is necessary within the church God has placed them to make this right. That's how I read this and I applaud their sincere efforts. Thank you, ronhall. This is exactly it. I'd give you a hug if I could.
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Post by alexander on Sept 11, 2011 9:06:42 GMT -5
The overseer of my field did not give me permission to change meetings. It was the overseer of another state that invited us to that meeting. He in kindness invited us, as I had written him explaining to him that we couldn't go to our current meeting (at the time) anymore due to the interference with our RAD children and the current overseers endorsement of that interference. Again, he in kindness wanted us to have a meeting to attend, so we were invited across state lines (the horror!) to go to meeting. And it was lovely and a great oasis for my family each Sunday morning. Those elders and friends (they had 2 elders) will be rewarded handsomely in eternity for the cups of cold water that they gave us. (One of the friends from that meeting went on to his reward this week.) But, even that overseer, quickly turned against us (without telling us why and denying that he has a problem with us) and we are not "welcome" in his state anymore. Guess you are right, Greg. I did read this, but not carefully enough. I didn't think it had come to this. Yes, we were removed from that meeting. But the overseer did not ban us from all meetings- and nor did he give us a "real" reason for doing what he did- the reason that he gave was so preposterous I am declining to post it on the TMB for the time being. Other overseers are aware and are working on a solution and are asking me to be patient and quiet about all of this- that we have to give the Lord time to work. I agree with everything but the "quiet". And I was upfront about that with them- that far too often these issues are just swept under the rug when it involves a worker. "Quiet" equates to "coverup" far too often, but they assured me that that was not the case. Another worker sends our family daily messages of encouragement asking us to hang in there and that this matter will be resolved in a Godly way. I think that it will. God has been with us and encouraging us and blessing us through all this nonsense for 2 years. I wish I could write more of those blessings, but I am awaiting the conclusion to this story. I see the conclusion being that my family and I are kicked out entirely or the workers do the right thing. I won't accept anything else but the workers doing the right thing- and they'll know and we'll know and all the friends that we have lost and been demonized too will know that an injustice had been done and has now been made right.
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Post by alexander on Sept 11, 2011 9:11:51 GMT -5
We are no longer allowed to attend the meeting across the state line. It seems that the overseer who gave you permission to attend across the state line was in error. According to Dale Shultz: A simple understanding that workers recognize the world over is that we don't go into other fields and get involved without the knowledge and sanction of the workers in that field. That applies to the field bordering us, let alone the neighboring province.It is Dale that is in error, in my opinion. The Holy Spirit is limited by state or province lines, oceans, rivers, or mountains? There is a "great gulf" that no man can pass because of a surveyor's line? How weird.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2011 9:21:37 GMT -5
All too often the advice of "be quiet and let the Lord work" is simply part of a cover up, even if the adviser really believes what he is saying. Had Alexander been quiet, there would have been zero chance of resolution. By being open about it, chances of proper resolution are slightly higher than zero.
The advice to be quiet about things is usually designed to avoid division. This is quite rational in an environment which has no conflict resolution procedures and even worse, no conflict resolution skills......just "be quiet and forget about it" is about the extent of the skills being applied.
It's really unfortunate to see that Alexander has worker supporters whose hands are tied. They know their hands are tied and they can do nothing. Obviously lots of people have made at least small efforts behind the scene but two years later, nothing has happened.
This story isn't likely about bad people either. I doubt that DennisK and GeorgeL are bad fellows. This story is about a church system which isn't working and it certainly isn't serving its members.
We will know the system is working when the advice turns from "be quiet about it" to "let's hear about this and let's work together to fix it!" As of now "be quiet about it" is proof of a system that is badly broken.
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Post by alexander on Sept 11, 2011 9:37:34 GMT -5
This story isn't likely about bad people either. I doubt that DennisK and GeorgeL are bad fellows. This story is about a church system which isn't working and it certainly isn't serving its members. Exactly. These two overseers are known to be especially protective of the 2x2 system and their understanding of overseer authority. Part of the feedback that I have gotten back is that it is being reported that I do not respect the worker's authority. I replied back that I highly respect the authority of the workers'- but I do not respect abuse of authority. Most entities in the world have policies in place to monitor and handle abuses of authority. The 2x2 system doesn't. You are correct, most other overseers have asked this question, "What can I do?" There really isn't much that they can do.
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Post by imnx2 on Sept 11, 2011 10:13:35 GMT -5
It seems that the overseer who gave you permission to attend across the state line was in error. According to Dale Shultz: A simple understanding that workers recognize the world over is that we don't go into other fields and get involved without the knowledge and sanction of the workers in that field. That applies to the field bordering us, let alone the neighboring province.It is Dale that is in error, in my opinion. The Holy Spirit is limited by state or province lines, oceans, rivers, or mountains? There is a "great gulf" that no man can pass because of a surveyor's line? How weird. The fields are designated for order....operation and administration. The first workers likely knew that the friends have partiality. So, they cannot be free to go where they want (though there is travel/vacation consideration). And the workers do not want 'problem solvers' competing with one another. You have a designated meeting with designated elder and a designated pair of workers and a designated overseer. Fit in. The second overseer was in error and caused more problems. You are taking on the whole system and likely will get no satisfaction unless you change your terms. Probably not even then.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2011 10:40:38 GMT -5
It is Dale that is in error, in my opinion. The Holy Spirit is limited by state or province lines, oceans, rivers, or mountains? There is a "great gulf" that no man can pass because of a surveyor's line? How weird. The fields are designated for order....operation and administration. The first workers likely knew that the friends have partiality. So, they cannot be free to go where they want (though there is travel/vacation consideration). And the workers do not want 'problem solvers' competing with one another. You have a designated meeting with designated elder and a designated pair of workers and a designated overseer. Fit in. The second overseer was in error and caused more problems. You are taking on the whole system and likely will get no satisfaction unless you change your terms. Probably not even then. That's pretty much how it works. The system is a linear hierarchy of authority....... friend--->elder---->worker---->overseer Elders hardly fit into the authority structure as almost all refer things up to the local worker, so in real practice it is: friends/elders----->worker----->overseer There is nothing else in the procedure of conflict resolution. The overseer is almost 100% supreme except in extremely egregious errors of character but errors of judgment are almost 100% accepted by the overseer group. There is a hard shell around this system. It works well and efficiently when it is working. When a mistake is made by the worker and then accepted by the overseer, it completely breaks down and people become victims of it. Alexander's case is just one of hundreds known and probably thousands over the years which got dead-ended in an error at the overseer level with no other avenue for resolution. The complaints against Alexander not "accepting the authority of the workers" is simply a reaction to protect this rather frail system of resolution. When errors are made, the decision is considered final and authoritative and must be accepted whether right or wrong. Dale Schultz confirmed in writing that that is how it works. Right now, there are some people who are knocking on the hard shell of the system and finding it very resistant. That's nothing new. Too many have been able to make the system work for them and have even seen good things come of it......and they aren't about to change, particularly DennisK and GeorgeL.
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Post by dlb5674 on Sept 11, 2011 13:21:22 GMT -5
Alexander, I have recently become a member of TMB. I don't know your entire story but have followed this particular thread. I'm curious as to why you wish to remain in meetings if you are not welcome. Sometimes one person can make a difference but it seems as though you are facing a lot of opposition. Are you hopeful that you will make a difference and can change a badly damaged system? Or are you truly happy in the meetings? From the tone of your posts I do not believe that to be the case. I wish you well.
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Post by alexander on Sept 11, 2011 13:41:50 GMT -5
Are you hopeful that you will make a difference and can change a badly damaged system? Or are you truly happy in the meetings? Thanks for the post. Yes to both questions. But all that I am really doing is reporting what is happening to my family and I within this fellowship. That's pretty much it. I write of the good and the bad.
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Post by dlb5674 on Sept 11, 2011 17:25:06 GMT -5
Alan, I faced some of this indifference as well. It appears that hoping issues will soon be forgotten is typical. I'm sure there are workers who would like to be heard but they are either low man on the totem pole or are afraid of possible consequence if they stand up for those who are being victimized.
Alexander, I know you are hopeful things will be resolved. I don't hold out as much hope as you do unfortunately. Faith in God is key. Faith in a faulty system only brings disappointment. Stay focused on God's direction and I'm sure you'll know what is best for you and your family.
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Post by alexander on Sept 11, 2011 18:08:26 GMT -5
Alan, I faced some of this indifference as well. It appears that hoping issues will soon be forgotten is typical. I'm sure there are workers who would like to be heard but they are either low man on the totem pole or are afraid of possible consequence if they stand up for those who are being victimized. Alexander, I know you are hopeful things will be resolved. I don't hold out as much hope as you do unfortunately. Faith in God is key. Faith in a faulty system only brings disappointment. Stay focused on God's direction and I'm sure you'll know what is best for you and your family. Right. My faith is not in the system, but in God. I stay with the system because I do believe that the workers, for the most part, are led of the Spirit and preach words that the Spirit gives them to speak. I believe that they brought me to Christ and I appreciate the sober life that is advocated for us to live. I have been blessed a hundred fold within this fellowship- but it was God bringing the blessing- and we continue to be blessed as we pursue a Godly resolution to this little misunderstanding.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 11, 2011 18:31:53 GMT -5
Alan, I faced some of this indifference as well. It appears that hoping issues will soon be forgotten is typical. I'm sure there are workers who would like to be heard but they are either low man on the totem pole or are afraid of possible consequence if they stand up for those who are being victimized. Alexander, I know you are hopeful things will be resolved. I don't hold out as much hope as you do unfortunately. Faith in God is key. Faith in a faulty system only brings disappointment. Stay focused on God's direction and I'm sure you'll know what is best for you and your family. Right. My faith is not in the system, but in God. I stay with the system because I do believe that the workers, for the most part, are led of the Spirit and preach words that the Spirit gives them to speak. I believe that they brought me to Christ and I appreciate the sober life that is advocated for us to live. I have been blessed a hundred fold within this fellowship- but it was God bringing the blessing- and we continue to be blessed as we pursue a Godly resolution to this little misunderstanding. Aw c'mon. Be bold and call it what it is. It is either a travesty of justice or it doesn't warrant all the time and effort you've spent bringing it to the forefront.
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Post by alexander on Sept 11, 2011 18:54:51 GMT -5
Aw c'mon. Be bold and call it what it is. It is either a travesty of justice or it doesn't warrant all the time and effort you've spent bringing it to the forefront. My situation is a little misunderstanding. It is the overseer led shunning, false gossip, demonization, and the unwillingness of the overseers to resolve the issue (or even discuss the issue) over the little misunderstanding that BECAME the issue. As the saying goes, "It isn't the crime, but the coverup".
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Post by StAnne on Sept 11, 2011 19:09:22 GMT -5
Aw c'mon. Be bold and call it what it is. It is either a travesty of justice or it doesn't warrant all the time and effort you've spent bringing it to the forefront. My situation is a little misunderstanding. It is the overseer led shunning, false gossip, demonization, and the unwillingness of the overseers to resolve the issue (or even discuss the issue) over the little misunderstanding that BECAME the issue. As the saying goes, "It isn't the crime, but the coverup". If you truly believe this to be true, you do yourself no favors, your credibility is at stake, and your denial is obvious in referring to the whole situation as a little misunderstanding. Just sayin' ...
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Post by sharonw on Sept 11, 2011 19:12:37 GMT -5
I have not doubt that what you write is true. I simply do not feel drawn to leave the 2x2 system. If we are excommunicated/not given a meeting to attend, then I will begin visiting other denominations and will report on the Spirit in attendance (or lack, thereof) and the love of the people. Personally, we go to several different Christian churches in the area -- and some Sunday's we go up in the mountains to ride horses or hike. I don't feel like you HAVE to be in any church -- and I'm certainly never going to be a member of any denomination ever again. God's bigger than all of it and He's always with me!! I just don't see the point in waiting until you are excommunicated. It is SO worth it to be happy and serve the Lord God without all the distractions/stress you and family are going through currently. I don't ever post on here unless I have prayed first for God to guide my words. For His reasons, He is really laying you and your family on my heart. Or God has stepped back and allowed Satan to turn Alexander upside down if he so wished....like poor old Job, eh?
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Post by sharonw on Sept 11, 2011 19:23:16 GMT -5
All too often the advice of "be quiet and let the Lord work" is simply part of a cover up, even if the adviser really believes what he is saying. Had Alexander been quiet, there would have been zero chance of resolution. By being open about it, chances of proper resolution are slightly higher than zero. The advice to be quiet about things is usually designed to avoid division. This is quite rational in an environment which has no conflict resolution procedures and even worse, no conflict resolution skills......just "be quiet and forget about it" is about the extent of the skills being applied. It's really unfortunate to see that Alexander has worker supporters whose hands are tied. They know their hands are tied and they can do nothing. Obviously lots of people have made at least small efforts behind the scene but two years later, nothing has happened. This story isn't likely about bad people either. I doubt that DennisK and GeorgeL are bad fellows. This story is about a church system which isn't working and it certainly isn't serving its members. We will know the system is working when the advice turns from "be quiet about it" to "let's hear about this and let's work together to fix it!" As of now "be quiet about it" is proof of a system that is badly broken. I stongly suspect the worker(s) that are "trying" are really covering up what the overseers have already decided...I do not believe that the 2 overseers involved will change, not at this late date nor do I believe the worker(s) that are trying to keep the family's feathers unruffled are in a position to do anything at all other then to "appear" to soothe the family's ruffled feathers. The ONLY way to change those 2 overseers' minds would be for them to be literally fired off the "overseer roster"....demoted at the best and thrown completely out of the workership is more likely the only way resolution will come to any standard that Alexander is demanding. I still say that Alexander has already been "quietly excommunicated" by both overseers and Alexander is sitting there demanding they tell him so in NO uncertain words....he just may get that. Since he's made it known to the workers he is NOT going to be quiet, then I suspect that out and out exc ommunication will be the resolution. There is hardly a chance for 2 elder overseers to change their minds after this length of time much less all the anti-Alexander things that have gone on.
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Post by alexander on Sept 11, 2011 19:25:46 GMT -5
I have not doubt that what you write is true. I simply do not feel drawn to leave the 2x2 system. If we are excommunicated/not given a meeting to attend, then I will begin visiting other denominations and will report on the Spirit in attendance (or lack, thereof) and the love of the people. Personally, we go to several different Christian churches in the area -- and some Sunday's we go up in the mountains to ride horses or hike. I don't feel like you HAVE to be in any church -- and I'm certainly never going to be a member of any denomination ever again. God's bigger than all of it and He's always with me!! I just don't see the point in waiting until you are excommunicated. It is SO worth it to be happy and serve the Lord God without all the distractions/stress you and family are going through currently. I don't ever post on here unless I have prayed first for God to guide my words. For His reasons, He is really laying you and your family on my heart. Thanks, Melissa. I had missed this post until SharonW responded to it. I agree with you. I do not feel that I have to be a part of the 2x2 system to be saved or to serve the Lord. Not at all. However, I do not feel lead away from the 2x2 system. I do not see the wisdom in running from a problem, but rather confronting the problem and coming to a solution. I know that SharonW doesn't believe me, but my family isn't in any stress or discomfort. The love of our family for the Lord and trust in Him is plainly evident, and we do not tie our salvation to what the workers or friends think. The Lord has blessed us more and more as the months go by- my only source of discomfort/heart ache comes as my friends drop off communicating with me one by one. But, be that as it may, I understand why they do what they do and it gives me that much more courage to fight against the system that promotes such a devilish tactic as shunning and false gossip.
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Post by alexander on Sept 11, 2011 19:33:39 GMT -5
All too often the advice of "be quiet and let the Lord work" is simply part of a cover up, even if the adviser really believes what he is saying. Had Alexander been quiet, there would have been zero chance of resolution. By being open about it, chances of proper resolution are slightly higher than zero. The advice to be quiet about things is usually designed to avoid division. This is quite rational in an environment which has no conflict resolution procedures and even worse, no conflict resolution skills......just "be quiet and forget about it" is about the extent of the skills being applied. It's really unfortunate to see that Alexander has worker supporters whose hands are tied. They know their hands are tied and they can do nothing. Obviously lots of people have made at least small efforts behind the scene but two years later, nothing has happened. This story isn't likely about bad people either. I doubt that DennisK and GeorgeL are bad fellows. This story is about a church system which isn't working and it certainly isn't serving its members. We will know the system is working when the advice turns from "be quiet about it" to "let's hear about this and let's work together to fix it!" As of now "be quiet about it" is proof of a system that is badly broken. I stongly suspect the worker(s) that are "trying" are really covering up what the overseers have already decided...I do not believe that the 2 overseers involved will change, not at this late date nor do I believe the worker(s) that are trying to keep the family's feathers unruffled are in a position to do anything at all other then to "appear" to soothe the family's ruffled feathers. The ONLY way to change those 2 overseers' minds would be for them to be literally fired off the "overseer roster"....demoted at the best and thrown completely out of the workership is more likely the only way resolution will come to any standard that Alexander is demanding. I still say that Alexander has already been "quietly excommunicated" by both overseers and Alexander is sitting there demanding they tell him so in NO uncertain words....he just may get that. Since he's made it known to the workers he is NOT going to be quiet, then I suspect that out and out exc ommunication will be the resolution. There is hardly a chance for 2 elder overseers to change their minds after this length of time much less all the anti-Alexander things that have gone on. You might be right. But, I trust the men, my friends, to do the right and Godly thing- even if that means excommunicating my family and I- if that is the right and Godly thing. I do not want the 2 overseers involved to be fired. I do not want punishment or chastisement for them at all. It isn't a personal problem- I don't have anything against either man- I love both of them dearly and I am not as upset by their treatment toward my family as I once was.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Sept 11, 2011 19:35:00 GMT -5
I agree with you. I do not feel that I have to be a part of the 2x2 system to be saved or to serve the Lord. Not at all. However, I do not feel lead away from the 2x2 system. I do not see the wisdom in running from a problem, but rather confronting the problem and coming to a solution. I felt the same way too, Alexander - for over 6 years. I was certain that if I could just explain things to the right person, everything would be taken care of. We also lost our friends - including many former peers on the California staff, and the friends here in Hawai`i - one by one. It eventually became apparent that the "little misunderstanding" was a big thing to them - or at least addressing the issue was. I too thought that by "standing true," I would be able to help "cleanse the Kingdom." I eventually realized that the system was not what I once thought it was, and realized that I did not need it.
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