|
Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 8, 2010 17:49:16 GMT -5
Isn't it fascinating how quickly the f&w church was able to shove Irvine to the side once he became a bit of an embarrassment? Look at other founders of questionable judgment: Joseph Smith and Muhammed would be the most well-known. They are still revered.
What do you suppose is the difference?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2010 18:48:58 GMT -5
We quickly learned the art (or is it science) of burying our dead and did a great job on Irvine. We slipped a bit on Cooney because he kept coming back to life, but it was generally successful too.
|
|
shushy
Royal Member
Warning
50%
Posts: 8,009
|
Post by shushy on Apr 8, 2010 18:58:19 GMT -5
I wonder if the workers have ever thought to pray together in unity and wait in the upper room to be endowed with power from on high?
|
|
christopher
Senior Member
"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." -Ps. 27:8
Posts: 304
|
Post by christopher on Apr 8, 2010 19:53:11 GMT -5
I wonder if the workers have ever thought to pray together in unity and wait in the upper room to be endowed with power from on high? Maybe they did.
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Apr 8, 2010 20:16:38 GMT -5
I wonder if the workers have ever thought to pray together in unity and wait in the upper room to be endowed with power from on high? Maybe they did. I think they do cast lots!
|
|
|
Post by Rob Sargison on Apr 8, 2010 21:01:17 GMT -5
Questionable judgment or lost marbles? Perhaps that is the difference.
|
|
BaPa
Senior Member
Posts: 480
|
Post by BaPa on Apr 8, 2010 22:59:20 GMT -5
The Truth either outgrew William Irvine or William Irvine outgrew the Truth. Probably depends who you ask.
The Truth is William Irvine's Alpha Message. He went on with the Omega Message. There are still a few of them in Sacramento, CA area. Don't know about elsewhere.
His Omega group use William Irvine notes for their worship text. I talked to one of them towards the end of last year. At that time I wasn't aware or studied in his Omega Message. In conversing with the woman it was sort of like an unknowledgeable cold call. She only knew a few of the really old workers. She referred to The Truth as The Testimony. At any rate, I'm not sure paying her a visit is worth the learning experience. From what I understand if you don't respond to their message the oven temperature really gets turned down (shunning). I have little desire to learn a bout some guy desiring to be treated as a prophet that will be resurrected in the last days. I feel the guy is phony enough and would just as soon hold onto my present feelings towards his wondrous work.
|
|
|
Post by swa862 on Apr 8, 2010 23:04:03 GMT -5
Isn't it fascinating how quickly the f&w church was able to shove Irvine to the side once he became a bit of an embarrassment? Look at other founders of questionable judgment: Joseph Smith and Muhammed would be the most well-known. They are still revered. What do you suppose is the difference? yes isn't that something but the 2x2's don't want to have a thing to do with W.I...I showed my 2x2 aunt my W.I. T-Shirt the other day all my aunt said was he's in the grave the conversation ended there that was all there was to it
|
|
shushy
Royal Member
Warning
50%
Posts: 8,009
|
Post by shushy on Apr 8, 2010 23:29:12 GMT -5
I wonder if the workers have ever thought to pray together in unity and wait in the upper room to be endowed with power from on high? Maybe they did. If they did..what do you think would be the evidence or outworking of that?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2010 6:14:12 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by slowtosee on Apr 9, 2010 8:48:18 GMT -5
Isn't it fascinating how quickly the f&w church was able to shove Irvine to the side once he became a bit of an embarrassment? Look at other founders of questionable judgment: Joseph Smith and Muhammed would be the most well-known. They are still revered. What do you suppose is the difference? There definetly are differences, but also similarities. Generally, in each of these respective "religions", if you don't believe that the "original" founder had a god-given special revelation, you don't really "have it". Sure, don't believe for salvation in William Irvine anymore, but for sure you need to believe that the ministry he was once part of is the ONLY correct one, and if you don't believe that, you don't "have it". We were told , almost begged , by a senior worker to just telll him you believe that this is the only true ministry , and "I will go to bat for you". We could have dissembled and " all would have been well", therefore my conclusion, that the similarities are actually just as great as the differences, between the religions mentioned, even though the founder of the 2x2 religion fell out of favour, with the group. HIs doctrine is still followed rigidly today- go out two by two, have meetings on Sunday morning in a house (except when it suits us to meet in other buildings i.e. -convention etc. etc. ) and WE are the only right ones, probably being the main one. Generally.....~~~~~ Alvin
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2010 10:02:41 GMT -5
Alvin, that story reminds me of being advised by an elder to lie about something so the church leaders (including himself) would go easy on me. My reaction was "sorry boys, I've already got too much bad stuff to atone for."
|
|
|
Post by ronhall on Apr 10, 2010 18:35:36 GMT -5
When I think about WI, what comes to mind is he found the pearl of great price hidden in a field, but didn't sell all he had and purchase the field.
He only wanted the pearl, never mind the field. So the field was purchased and is still being purchased by others who realize the pearl is actually the fruit that is produced by working the soil of that field.
|
|
|
Post by JO on Apr 10, 2010 19:10:41 GMT -5
Goodhand Pattison and John Long speak highly of William Irvine in the early days. Both these men were non-exclusive and open about their beliefs.
I don't believe WI was always wrong, but I believe he went wrong and the other workers were forced to move him aside.
Sadly, a movement that saw the need to put Jesus in his rightful place has gone full circle today.
|
|
|
Post by emy on Apr 10, 2010 20:14:02 GMT -5
Has gone full circle....
So who is our Irvine?
|
|
|
Post by JO on Apr 10, 2010 22:28:44 GMT -5
What I tried to say is that William Irvine saw the need to cut through religious confusion and get back to the basics of "Christ in you, your hope of glory". His preaching spoke powerfully to those who were willing to dispense with their religious pride, humble themselves and identify with the lowly Jesus of the bible.
William's message in the beginning was all about Jesus, but the message of workers today is too much about themselves and their religious system.
It's "no man comes to the Father but by us". This is a very different message to that preached by the workers of the late 1800s.
|
|
|
Post by JO on Apr 10, 2010 23:19:05 GMT -5
~~ I don't believe William Irvine realized he had found the Pearl of great price the New Testament apostolic church and ministry. This is precisely the problem with the 2x2 church today: The New Testament apostolic church and ministry is NOT the pearl of great price.When friends and workers humble themselves and acknowledge that Jesus is the pearl of great price then the fellowship and ministry wiill prosper. Until that happens, its just a slow motion train wreck.
|
|
|
Post by emy on Apr 11, 2010 0:01:24 GMT -5
Matt. 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: 46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
This says the kingdom of heaven is like a man searching for pearls. So if the kingdom of heaven is searching what are the pearls? Seems like it would be the souls of men. And then heaven gave all it had (Jesus) to buy the souls - your soul, the pearl of great price.
The other parable: 44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Here the kingdom of heaven is like hidden treasure and when a man finds it, he is eager to give up all to possess it.
|
|
|
Post by Done4now on Apr 11, 2010 0:53:42 GMT -5
G.H. Lang wrote:
#1) Christ is the Merchant, the Pearl the Church, and that Calvary was the price Paid for the Pearl.
"Christ also loved the Church, and gave Himself for it" (Eph. 5:25-27) and she will ever be the object of His desire. This same Church is one pearl, one body though composed of many members; one habitation of God, through the Spirit, thould builded of many stones; one, as the purchased of Christ's all-atoning blood; one as the workmanship of the Eternal Spirit whose ministry it is to fashion the Church into one body.
This is the Church Jesus said He would build, is composed of all regenerated Jews and Gentiles from Pentecost till the RETURN of Christ as the bridegroom for His Bride----The Church of the Living God.
#2) The parable of the Treasure and the field. Christ is the treasure hid in the field; He is hid in the field; He is hid in the field of Holy Scripture, where He is presignified by types and parables.
~~ The stories of the Treasure and the Pearl are twin parables with likeness so evident that they can not be deny the blood bond. Yet, as with the twin children, each is markedly individual. The resemblances and the differences can be best shown as they are considered in company... These two stress the worth of the kingdom to the individual.
The two are each of the complement of the other: so that under one or the other, as FINDERS either of the pearl or hid treasure, may be ranged ALL who become partakers of the rich treasures of the gospel of Christ.
Very nice Nate! Thank you!
|
|
|
Post by swa862 on Apr 11, 2010 13:53:50 GMT -5
[/img][/quote] Looks like William Irvine can't be the founder...It must of all got started on the shores of Galilee right thats what I am starting to think
|
|
|
Post by slowtosee on Apr 11, 2010 18:20:38 GMT -5
It is interesting how certain leaders have such long lasting effects on people, living years and years after their death. Poor William IRvine doesn't reaaly get enough credit from us. I suggest that if it was not for Willie, most of us would not be communicating with each other here. NO Willie- NO Testimony OR TMB board. It would be some shocker to hear each head worker make an announcement at their field"s convention , "folks, we have become convicted to tell you all the truth of the beginning of our "fellowship". I think there would be a fairly large "stir" amongst the older generation, but I imagine many of the younger people would not be too surprised, really. Deep down, I think MANY people would actually be relieved that they didn't have to suppress their intuition of, "something doesn't quite ring true here, in this no founder stuff". Wouldn't it be great to be able to live openly and without fear of "finding out the real truth" of our beginnings. I think God would bless the fellowship in ways unimaginable, just for taking the step of obedience in honesty. I think there are VERY few people who lived a little over one hundred years ago, that affect us collectively, on this board, as much as William Irvine . He is one of our common denominators and had and still has a BIG influence on us and thousands of people. WOW QUite a legacy. Thank you , william Irvine for introducing us to a great bunch of people. Wish you would have done some things different, but ......... Alvin
|
|
|
Post by open mind on Apr 11, 2010 19:56:31 GMT -5
We had avery upset lady in the meeting yesterday because someone had told her through the week that the 'truth' didnt start from the shores of galilee...she went on to say how the devil gets into people so easily and she is glad for the wokers 'reassurance' that it was from Jesus....
|
|
|
Post by snow on Apr 11, 2010 20:27:31 GMT -5
We had avery upset lady in the meeting yesterday because someone had told her through the week that the 'truth' didnt start from the shores of galilee...she went on to say how the devil gets into people so easily and she is glad for the wokers 'reassurance' that it was from Jesus.... My heart goes out to her. It's not nice to find out we've been deceived. It's bound to slip at some point and she is going to be devasted.
|
|
|
Post by JO on Apr 11, 2010 21:20:50 GMT -5
We had avery upset lady in the meeting yesterday because someone had told her through the week that the 'truth' didnt start from the shores of galilee...she went on to say how the devil gets into people so easily and she is glad for the wokers 'reassurance' that it was from Jesus.... When will workers wake up and acknowledge their error in maintaining this "Shores of Galilee" deceit? Their responsibility is in preaching the unadulterated gospel of Jesus Christ. Is their message so sloppy that people cannot discern between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of the friends and workers? Shushy's suggestion would be one way to put this folly to rest: I wonder if the workers have ever thought to pray together in unity and wait in the upper room to be endowed with power from on high?
|
|
|
Post by JO on Apr 11, 2010 21:31:20 GMT -5
Deep down, I think MANY people would actually be relieved that they didn't have to suppress their intuition of, "something doesn't quite ring true here, in this no founder stuff". Wouldn't it be great to be able to live openly and without fear of "finding out the real truth" of our beginnings. I think God would bless the fellowship in ways unimaginable, just for taking the step of obedience in honesty. Alvin Well said Alvin. We should not expect God's blessing when so many people equate the kingdom of the friends and workers with the kingdom of heaven. Jesus preached the kingdom of heaven - our workers should too. The "no man comes to the Father but by us" doctrine is NOT what William Irvine and the early workers preached in the beginning. Its way off the mark.
|
|
|
Post by JO on Apr 11, 2010 21:37:06 GMT -5
~~ My take if it wasn't for William's sister... He'd still be Faith Mission preacher for the rest of his days and life.
The New Testament and apostolic ministry started by Jesus at the shores of Galilee..... William Irvine didn't start the New Testament church which began at the shores of Galilee. Nate, are you saying William Irvine heard the true gospel through his sister while he was a Faith Mission preacher? And then he went on to establish the 2x2 organization we know today? Do you have some primary evidence for this?
|
|
|
Post by JO on Apr 11, 2010 22:03:23 GMT -5
And then he went on to establish the 2x2 organization we know today? ~~ Yes, WI went on with the desire RETURNING to Jesus, apostolic ministry and New Testament fellowship with the help from others such as John Long, Eddy Cooney, Carrols, George Walker and 200 plus workers who left their denomination churches to join them.Here's the problem as I see it: It's OK for workers to teach their desire to RETURN to the apostolic ministry and New Testament fellowship. However... Its a LIE for workers to teach that they ARE the continuation of the apostolic ministry and New Testament fellowship.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2010 22:08:19 GMT -5
Jesusonly, so is the Catholic Church right in saying it is a continuation of the Apostolic church? If not then WHO is?
|
|