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Post by JO on Apr 11, 2010 22:34:36 GMT -5
Jesusonly, so is the Catholic Church right in saying it is a continuation of the Apostolic church? If not then WHO is? Do you need to put your faith in a human organization? Speaking for myself, I seek to hear and obey my heavenly Shepherd's voice. I appreciate the fellowship of others who have a relationship with the same Shepherd. Denominational boundaries are man-made and their importance over rated.
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Post by open mind on Apr 12, 2010 0:25:12 GMT -5
The workers may be trying to follow a way that Jesus revealed in the NT..but he came to preach a message not a method....who cares how you worship, as long as it is God that you worship
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Post by JO on Apr 12, 2010 2:40:03 GMT -5
Nathan, none of that proves Jesus gave William Irvine and his successors the exclusive worldwide franchise for dispensing salvation to humanity.
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 12, 2010 2:48:17 GMT -5
Here's the problem as I see it: It's OK for workers to teach their desire to RETURN to the apostolic ministry and New Testament fellowship. However... Its a LIE for workers to teach that they ARE the continuation of the apostolic ministry and New Testament fellowship. ~~ That's no LIE to me if that what God has revealed it to me and others the workers are the continuation of the apostolic ministry and New Testament fellowship. Maybe that's a Lie according you because you don't believe it so yourself but please don't say it's a LIE for worker to TEACH and believe that they are the continuation of the apostolic ministry and New Testament.
I can decide for myself whether the workers are lying or not. For myself they are not from my own personal experience and observation. The Truth is in the facts Nathan, not wishful thinking.
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Post by JO on Apr 12, 2010 3:01:06 GMT -5
Here's the problem as I see it: It's OK for workers to teach their desire to RETURN to the apostolic ministry and New Testament fellowship. However... Its a LIE for workers to teach that they ARE the continuation of the apostolic ministry and New Testament fellowship. ~~ That's no LIE to me if that what God has revealed it to me and others the workers are the continuation of the apostolic ministry and New Testament fellowship. Maybe that's a Lie according you because you don't believe it so yourself but please don't say it's a LIE for worker to TEACH and believe that they are the continuation of the apostolic ministry and New Testament.
I can decide for myself whether the workers are lying or not. For myself they are not from my own personal experience and observation. If a man spends his whole life in a village in Kansas he may choose to believe the earth is flat. However, if he tries to convince others that the earth is flat he can expect people to question his wisdom.
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Post by kiwi on Apr 12, 2010 3:01:25 GMT -5
~~ That's no LIE to me if that what God has revealed it to me and others the workers are the continuation of the apostolic ministry and New Testament fellowship. Maybe that's a Lie according you because you don't believe it so yourself but please don't say it's a LIE for worker to TEACH and believe that they are the continuation of the apostolic ministry and New Testament.
I can decide for myself whether the workers are lying or not. For myself they are not from my own personal experience and observation. The Truth is in the facts Nathan, not wishful thinking. Who's facts?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2010 6:06:02 GMT -5
We had avery upset lady in the meeting yesterday because someone had told her through the week that the 'truth' didnt start from the shores of galilee...she went on to say how the devil gets into people so easily and she is glad for the wokers 'reassurance' that it was from Jesus.... Let's pretend this story is actually true. What this woman needs to do is go see the church which claims an unbroken line of succession from the shores of Galilee - the Roman Catholic Church. Means nothing. And then she needs to understand that ALL Christian churches form a direct line to the first Apostles. And then she must understand we have never claimed to be from an unbroken line of apostles. And if she is prepared to pay her way, she can go try the spirits of these churches.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2010 6:25:11 GMT -5
Jesusonly, so is the Catholic Church right in saying it is a continuation of the Apostolic church? If not then WHO is? Do you need to put your faith in a human organization? Speaking for myself, I seek to hear and obey my heavenly Shepherd's voice. I appreciate the fellowship of others who have a relationship with the same Shepherd. Denominational boundaries are man-made and their importance over rated. So, they are all right in your eyes?
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Post by fred on Apr 12, 2010 6:54:03 GMT -5
We had avery upset lady in the meeting yesterday because someone had told her through the week that the 'truth' didnt start from the shores of galilee...she went on to say how the devil gets into people so easily and she is glad for the wokers 'reassurance' that it was from Jesus.... Are you saying it's not?......whilst I've not heard it mentioned in meeting I've witnessed quite a few speak along the same lines. Poor information management............ what organisation would continue to allow its members to believe untruths ? "This church (fellowship, group) never had a human beginning, it is from the shores of Galilee". Hard to say what this means ! Help me out here Scott et al, how much does it cost to try the spirits where you go ? ;D ;D
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Post by lin on Apr 12, 2010 6:59:08 GMT -5
Will the circle of Willie Irvine be unbroken? Around and around we go where we stop nobody knows.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 12, 2010 7:21:30 GMT -5
We had avery upset lady in the meeting yesterday because someone had told her through the week that the 'truth' didnt start from the shores of galilee...she went on to say how the devil gets into people so easily and she is glad for the wokers 'reassurance' that it was from Jesus.... My heart goes out to her. It's not nice to find out we've been deceived. It's bound to slip at some point and she is going to be devasted. I think she is so hurt that any comfort measure helped her...but the truth will win out...or it did for me...I remember being very upset myself...but through a long 2 years it all became clear and the truth won out.....and I left the fellowship because the truth won out.
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Post by rational on Apr 12, 2010 8:18:25 GMT -5
When friends and workers humble themselves and acknowledge that Jesus is the pearl of great price then the fellowship and ministry wiill prosper. If my memory serves me correctly it was not Jesus that was the pearl of great price.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2010 9:25:58 GMT -5
Do you need to put your faith in a human organization? Speaking for myself, I seek to hear and obey my heavenly Shepherd's voice. I appreciate the fellowship of others who have a relationship with the same Shepherd. Denominational boundaries are man-made and their importance over rated. So, they are all right in your eyes? You probably missed the point there Bert. It's not that they are all right, but all man made boundaries are not only fallible but are very limited in their abilities, ie over rated as the post says. If there were only two choices to your question: all right or all wrong, the best answer would be "all wrong", including our own F&W efforts to draw man made denominational boundaries. The only thing that is right is a personal relationship with God.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2010 9:28:31 GMT -5
We had avery upset lady in the meeting yesterday because someone had told her through the week that the 'truth' didnt start from the shores of galilee...she went on to say how the devil gets into people so easily and she is glad for the wokers 'reassurance' that it was from Jesus.... Let's pretend this story is actually true. What this woman needs to do is go see the church which claims an unbroken line of succession from the shores of Galilee - the Roman Catholic Church. Means nothing. And then she needs to understand that ALL Christian churches form a direct line to the first Apostles. And then she must understand we have never claimed to be from an unbroken line of apostles. And if she is prepared to pay her way, she can go try the spirits of these churches. You make a good point there Bert. An unbroken succession is not necessary, nor does it ensure rightness or a heavenly spirit. Claiming an unbroken succession and an exclusive franchise to God practically guarantees an unheavenly spirit.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2010 9:54:37 GMT -5
You make a good point there Bert. An unbroken succession is not necessary, nor does it ensure rightness or a heavenly spirit. Claiming an unbroken succession and an exclusive franchise to God practically guarantees an unheavenly spirit. ~~ Jesus foretold that God the Father would send forth MORE laborers/preachers into His harvest UNTIL He comes again. Jesus is very Exclusive! His way or the highway when he said, "I am the way, the truth and life no man comes to the Father but through me." Jesus said these words and it will come to PASS. Jesus/God doesn't LIE.
God wants to give men and women in EVERY generation have the same opportunity to hear the gospel of their Salvation... After the Pentecost God will fill the whole earth with His Living Witnesses scattered throughout the world (Acts 2:21) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall CALL on the name of the Lord shall be SAVED.
Paul wrote in I Cor. 15:1,2 Brethren I declare unto you the gospel which I PREACHED to you, which ye have received and on which ye have taken your stand. but which also ye are SAVED, if ye KEEP firmly to the word I preached unto you, unless ye BELIEVE in vain.
Romans 1:16,17 I am NOT ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the POWER of God unto Salvation! to EVERYONE that believes to the Jews first and also to the Gentiles. In the gospel is the righteousness of God REVEALED from Faith to Faith... I'm not sure of the point you are trying make Nathan. If it is the same as mine, it's all about a personal relationship with God, not membership in a self righteous man made system. The personal relationship is exclusive in a sense in that it is one on one, but it is not exclusive in the sense that it is available to anyone who seeks, knocks and hears.
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 12, 2010 10:31:32 GMT -5
Bert, And then she must understand we have never claimed to be from an unbroken line of apostles.There you go with that all encompassing 'WE' again. Who are you referring to? You and Prue? I very distinctly heard and was taught that the truth fellowship did in fact come from an unbroken line of apostles (workers of who Jesus was the head worker) that went back to the shores of Galilee. So..... could you explain who exactly you are referring to with the WE? Thanks, Scott
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2010 10:32:18 GMT -5
Again, I'm not sure of your point here Nathan, but there's no doubt that the F&W church system is hardly more or less man made than any other Christian religious system.
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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2010 12:08:23 GMT -5
All systems are man made systems imo. Knowing how many different early christian groups there were, each one worshipping Jesus in their own interpretation of what that was, there can not be a totally "true" church. Seeing as the RCC pretty much killed off the other denominations of early christians that didn't worship like they thought they should, the idea there is an unbroken, uncorrupted, true line from the time of Jesus is wishful thinking and highly unlikely. However, as no one knows, and can likely never know because there are no records to follow, we need to forget the past and focus on the future.
How can we live so that we don't cause division and suffering for humanity. How can we embrace the "we are all one in god" and really live it? Not my building walls and being seduced by desires to be "special" that's for sure. God is big enough for all denominations, religions and non religions. Buying into thinking a group is "special" if not conducive to harmony and dangerous in the big picture for humanities survival. JMO
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Post by ScholarGal on Apr 12, 2010 14:07:51 GMT -5
~~ It is not man-made system... it came from God's system. The early workers and friends LEFT the man-made system. The systems that the early workers left have changed. The system that the early workers joined has also changed from 100 years ago. Some of those early workers might not even recognize it today!
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Post by Done4now on Apr 12, 2010 14:59:51 GMT -5
one thing springs to my mind Nathan--- the early workers were not shy about sharing their faith. They invited outsiders (lots of them) to convention--and even allowed preachers from other denominations to speak with the flock at convention. They preached out where all could hear (Cooney at Hyde Park). They would be surprised (and likely not happy) about the way everything is underground now. A seeker would be hard pressed to even find this way. I think if those early workers were here today--they would be using the media---the web, blogs, whatever they could do to reach people. I believe that you are more in line with those early workers than with some of the ones who are running things today. (and for the record, I fully agree with you on this issue Nate. I think Christ wanted a Church that is visible. He does not want the light hidden under a bushel
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Post by Done4now on Apr 12, 2010 15:18:52 GMT -5
one thing springs to my mind Nathan--- the early workers were not shy about sharing their faith. They invited outsiders (lots of them) to convention--and even allowed preachers from other denominations to speak with the flock at convention. They preached out where all could hear (Cooney at Hyde Park). They would be surprised (and likely not happy) about the way everything is underground now. A seeker would be hard pressed to even find this way. I think if those early workers were here today--they would be using the media---the web, blogs, whatever they could do to reach people. I believe that you are more in line with those early workers than with some of the ones who are running things today. ~~ I agree with you, bro. Here is how I see and understanding once the older generation senior workers pass on eternity the younger generation will adapt and use the modern days technology to furthrance the gospel message.
It's hard for many of the older ones to change their ways of thinking, they believe the old way is good enough, some afraid for the changes believing they can't learn it fast enough. That's why God has to raise up new generation of workers for that time and age to deal with the current situation.
The younger generation of workers today use the computers to do home work for school, in colleges so it not too hard for them to do blogs, websites if they want to. I think the friends should have their own blogs, websites, facebooks, etc... advertising the gospel meetings for the workers.
When I was in the work we had bible studies at the colleges, Bible studies for those who are interested, having private Bible studies in the homes, passing invitation door to door, advertise in the local newspaper, etc..I say they need to listen to you. And you still have my vote for overseer!
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Post by Done4now on Apr 12, 2010 15:25:37 GMT -5
I say they need to listen to you. And you still have my vote for overseer! ~~ Thanks, my friend. Too many old school overseers are still alive. Some of them stay as overseers in their 90s. They need to STEP down and let the younger men with fresh ideas to cope with the current events.... Some of us like myself will do the little that we can to encourage the workers to go forward with the good changes.and I promise to pray that you are successful.
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Post by JO on Apr 12, 2010 16:15:12 GMT -5
The systems that the early workers left have changed. The system that the early workers joined has also changed from 100 years ago. Some of those early workers might not even recognize it today! ~~ Are you talking about good changes or bad changes that the early workers will NOT even recognize it today. Can you give me 3 examples of each good and bad.Bad Changes: 1. The first workers were non-sectarian. 2. The first workers were opposed to the organization of Christianity. 3. The first workers were Christ focused e.g. "Christ IN you, your hope of glory" and "Jesus is our only message". Good changes: Someone else can have a go at listing any good changes since the early years before the living witness heresy took root.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2010 16:43:41 GMT -5
There has been a wholesale shift from an evangelistic ministry to a pastoral ministry. Good or bad?
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Post by Done4now on Apr 12, 2010 16:44:48 GMT -5
Good changes---
All organizations have things that they need to work on. A good change is that the group now has a few members (like Nate and Clearday) who are thinking about the problems within the group, discussing these things openly and trying to come up with solutions.
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Post by Done4now on Apr 12, 2010 16:46:32 GMT -5
There has been a wholesale shift from an evangelistic ministry to a pastoral ministry. Good or bad? bad, because the shift has not been made completely. They are straddling the line between being evangelists and being pastors--trying to do both--which leaves them overworked and with neither job being done to the fullest.
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Post by JO on Apr 12, 2010 17:19:52 GMT -5
~~ Are you talking about good changes or bad changes that the early workers will NOT even recognize it today. Can you give me 3 examples of each good and bad. 1) Bad Changes: 1. The first workers were non-sectarian. 2. The first workers were opposed to the organization of Christianity. 3. The first workers were Christ focused e.g. "Christ IN you, your hope of glory" and "Jesus is our only message" ~~ These 3 above are not bad changes.... because most of the workers and friends still BELIEVE it today like they early workers believed.2) Good changes: Someone else can have a go at listing any good changes since the early years before the living witness heresy took root. ~~ The Living Witness of Christ's teaching is NOT heresy! It is scriptures.1. Today's workers are more sectarian than most other Christians. Today's workers believe only one sect is right - the one they control. 2. Today's 2x2 sect is more organized than most Christian sects. If you don't believe me, try inviting folks to your home for regular bible study. Or if you're a worker, try visiting folks who've been excommunicated (Ask Marg Magowan if the 2x2 sect is organized.) 3. Attend a series of gospel meetings and actually listen to the over-riding message. You'll find that strangers won't be allowed to profess until workers are satisfied they "get it". Get what? Get that "no man comes to the Father but by the workers".
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Post by ronhall on Apr 12, 2010 17:50:11 GMT -5
When I think about WI, what comes to mind is he found the pearl of great price hidden in a field, but didn't sell all he had and purchase the field. He only wanted the pearl, never mind the field. So the field was purchased and is still being purchased by others who realize the pearl is actually the fruit that is produced by working the soil of that field. I want to apologize for my inaccurate mention of the pearl of great price, confusing it with the treasure hidden in a field. While it is true that these to illustrations are often referred to in the same sermon and thus easy to "mix and match" as I did, I really should have looked the passages up and closely read them before posting. While I am sorry for the confusion, I am glad that in the course of several successive posts the confusion was cleared up without finger pointing and wagging back to the original author, yours truly. This characteristic of this group makes it easy to admit error and not become defensive. Thank you, very much!
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