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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2010 10:14:23 GMT -5
Well if there was already a church started that they knew about, why didn't they just join it instead of starting a new one? ~~ How can you start something when already there.... they just continue what they heard and seen.You have missed my point. Why didn't they just join the church they found out about and visited? Why didn't they go to gospel meetings, profess and get baptized and then go into the work for that group? I would imagine if they are the same as the 2x2's today, all that was in place wasn't it?
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2010 11:59:20 GMT -5
Okay then, which first christian church did the 2x2's come from? There were many. This defies all logic. Generally speaking, the adjective first describes a lonely entity. Like the first person to climb a mountain.
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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2010 12:16:21 GMT -5
Okay then, which first christian church did the 2x2's come from? There were many. This defies all logic. Generally speaking, the adjective first describes a lonely entity. Like the first person to climb a mountain. How would you word it? What I'm trying to ask, is which early christian belief system did the 2x2's come from? Truth has often little to do with what people consider to be "real"?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2010 12:30:30 GMT -5
Nathan, I share your perseverence in attempting to establish an unbroken link between the early Apostles and today's workers. As you can see, I'm researching areas not covered by the internet. Clearday is right. I have missed my calling, but ya know bro, the truth is out there somewhere. Maybe it's over the rainbow? ~~ Historical documents have proven there has always been apostles of Jesus on the earth.... WI and his sister just met these folks and told others about it and they too believed in God-made system as they read in the scriptures so they left the man-made system which they had belonged to.This is what I've been trying to prove for some time. However, I have found nothing conclusive in "historical documents" to support my views, but strangely there is a plethora of links in the largest "nation" in the world, which is where I seek to prove matters!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2010 12:36:58 GMT -5
Nathan, before I try to even think about confusing you, I will first have to "de-confuse" myself!
I travel regularly to Imagi to try and clear up Irvine issues!
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 13, 2010 16:28:58 GMT -5
Nathan you are like a broken record............. ~~ Yes, I have been for the last 10 yrs on different TMB message boards ;D It's coming clear and clear every day as we listen to it. You appear to be trying to convince yourself Nathan, no one else appears to be convinced of your shores of Galilee or Waldo connection to the 2x2s. Most of what you say is guess work or theories proposed by you so you can try and make up some story to fit into what you are trying to say. Much of what you say is made up. The letter above also appears to be one of wishful thinking. Some of your dishonesty is that you try and pass yourself off as someone who goes to meeting when in fact you have stated that you have not been to a Sunday morning meeting for many years - probably for as long as you have been on the message boards, which as you say is 10 years and only go very rarely to a Gospel meeting. You say things which other professing people on this board completely disagree with yet you spend a lot of time trying to convince yourself that these things are so. Actions speak louder than words. Nathan wrote:How could William be the 2x2 founder in 1897? when he didn't resigned from the Faith Mission until 1901. The Faith Mission stopped their payments to Irvine and took him off their books in 1901. He started gathering a band of followers around him from 1897 while still on the Faith Mission books. It was 1901 before they stopped his payments and kicked him out. I can start my own church while still getting paid and being a member of another organization. ALl the letter above proves is that there were many people those days who were freelance preachers and Irvines sister may have heard some. The Ana baptist could use these feelance preachers as proof that their group has been there since Jesus day too. You also quote: Our conversation turned unto Early Days. Robert told an interesting account of how the sister of Wm. Irvine turned religious. He mentioned that in his own thoughts he had the feeling Irvine's sister had contacted the truth (the faith passed down from Jesus' day) and passed this on unto Wm. Irvine." So this was only a feeling. A feeling , not fact.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2010 16:43:48 GMT -5
Hi Nathan, I live in Scotland. The Impartial Reporter was/is printed in Northern Ireland. I do have the compilation document of all (I think) the F&W references in that paper.
Thanks for posting the letter by George Gittins. You are having a hard time convincing others about the "real" history of the two and twos. Would you like me to compile a fictional story about Gareth Hughes and George Gittins giving more "factual" details about the beginnings? I'm sure this would convince some? All I ask is proper acknowledgement for my efforts.
These Polish preachers I mentioned were regular preachers at the Silesian coalfields in what is now Poland. I'm sure we could find some way of William Irvine inviting them to preach to his miners when he was manager of a coal mine in Scotland. That way we would have conclusive proof! After all, when considering pearls of great price, coal has the same elements as diamonds.
If you can tell me which of William's sisters introduced him to the "truth," I can make a search of the imaginary archives of the Impartial Reporter to see if she wrote any letter to that paper which they decided not to print. I reckon she must have written at least one letter in response to the frequent derogatory reporting which hallmarked that publication.
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 13, 2010 18:37:30 GMT -5
Outsiders are free to attend Gospel meetings. Sunday morning fellowship meeting is what professing people attend. I notice you did not say the last time you attended a Sunday morning fellowship meeting which you have stated in the past you do not attend. I am not attacking your character. I am referring to your attendance at meetings by making claims about the fellowship which is different from those who attend.
Irvine had been gaining coverts for himself long before he was taken off the Faith Mission role in 1901. Sunday morning fellowship meetings started in 1901. How could there be any Sunday morning meetings if there were not already converts to attend these meetings. Up until this time people who joined Irvine went preaching whether they were married or single. This changed and Sunday morning meetings started in 1901, as somewhere for the converts to meet. He had many converts by this time.
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Post by JO on Apr 13, 2010 20:15:09 GMT -5
Its clear from the above that Eddie Cooney founded our Sunday AM system in 1901.
Also in 1901 William Irvine led a breakaway from the Faith Mission that joined with other workers who were in fellowship with him since 1897.
Nathan, the more you try to confuse and obscure these facts the more support you give to "cover up" accusations.
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Post by kiwi on Apr 13, 2010 21:16:17 GMT -5
~~ Historical documents have proven there has always been apostles of Jesus on the earth.... WI and his sister just met these folks and told others about it and they too believed in God-made system as they read in the scriptures so they left the man-made system which they had belonged to. This is what I've been trying to prove for some time. However, I have found nothing conclusive in "historical documents" to support my views, but strangely there is a plethora of links in the largest "nation" in the world, which is where I seek to prove matters! Is that the imagi Nation? which is the largest nation in the world
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 13, 2010 21:41:36 GMT -5
Quoting Nathan: How can I attend the Sunday meetings when I have to work on Sunday? How can I be in two places at the same time? By the way, you ARE attacking me by calling me dishonest. I attend conventions every year where the professing attend.... Does that make me professing?"
So you are saying that you have not been to a Sunday morning meeting for more than 10 years. Work is a poor excuse. Most Christians ask to have Sundays off at least sometimes to attend church.
Calling you dishonest is not an attack. Calling someone a liar is an attack.
Does attending convention make you professing? According to a post by you a week or two back you stated that convention was a place to win souls and that was where you professed. So according to what you wrote attending convention does not make you professing. Going by my experience and 70 years of family professing, attending and taking part in Sunday morning meetings is a sign that one is professing.
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 13, 2010 21:45:24 GMT -5
Nathan, I share your perseverence in attempting to establish an unbroken link between the early Apostles and today's workers. As you can see, I'm researching areas not covered by the internet. Clearday is right. I have missed my calling, but ya know bro, the truth is out there somewhere. Maybe it's over the rainbow? ~~ Historical documents have proven there has always been apostles of Jesus on the earth.... WI and his sister just met these folks and told others about it and they too believed in God-made system as they read in the scriptures so they left the man-made system which they had belonged to.Without reading it again, but I thought you said that WI sister met these folks and told William about them, but now you are saying that he and his sister met them. Which is right, his sister met them or William and his sister met them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2010 22:22:32 GMT -5
This statement made me blink and reread a few times.......
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Post by open mind on Apr 13, 2010 23:31:09 GMT -5
Is that like the State of Origin? ;D
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Post by msew on Apr 14, 2010 2:56:15 GMT -5
~~ Here is the order from George Gittens.. WI sister met these folks first and told WI about them (these folks).... and LATER the sister and WI met these folks together.
Nathan, it's really hard for people who think logically to fit this into what is known and recorded about the beginning of the F&W's fellowship.
When did this meeting occur between WI, his sister and "these folks"? Is it documented?
If WI and his sister really did meet "these folks", who were they and why did WI and his sister not become part of their already established fellowship? Why wouldn't WI want to be connected to them seeing as they were the whole reason he came to know about and believe in the 2X2 method message? Why would he and others not talk about the wonderful thing they had found and who had brought the method message to him?
"These folks" are a figment of someone's imagination, wishful thinking and desire to justify some supposed apostolic connection.
It doesn't make sense and if it doesn't make sense then it probably isn't true, as Judge Judy would say!
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Post by Rob Sargison on Apr 14, 2010 5:04:28 GMT -5
~~ How can I attend the Sunday meetings when I have to work on Sunday? How can I be in two places at the same time? By the way, you ARE attacking me by calling me dishonest. I attend conventions every year where the professing attend.... Does that make me proffesing?
After leaving the work without a college education, without work experience/history for 8 yrs, without money I had to find any type of work to support myself and family. The job I have now has been supporting my family for 15 yrs, the company has good health insurance, retirement funds, holidays pay, X-mas bonuses, etc...
The State of Oregon, where I live has the highest unemployment rate in the USA. Many people have no jobs, their homes are gone right now so I am thankful to have a job to support my family through this difficut times.
I must earn a living and care for my family God KNOWS my heart and don't worry too much what others think or say. [/color]...To Impartial Reporter" 10/7/1909. [/color][/quote] I appreciate all you have been through and the struggles you are faced with Nate. God does know the heart and he understands where you are at.
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Post by Gene on Apr 14, 2010 6:13:34 GMT -5
~~ How can I attend the Sunday meetings when I have to work on Sunday? How can I be in two places at the same time? By the way, you ARE attacking me by calling me dishonest. I attend conventions every year where the professing attend.... Does that make me proffesing?
After leaving the work without a college education, without work experience/history for 8 yrs, without money I had to find any type of work to support myself and family. The job I have now has been supporting my family for 15 yrs, the company has good health insurance, retirement funds, holidays pay, X-mas bonuses, etc...
The State of Oregon, where I live has the highest unemployment rate in the USA. Many people have no jobs, their homes are gone right now so I am thankful to have a job to support my family through this difficut times.
I must earn a living and care for my family God KNOWS my heart and don't worry too much what others think or say. [/color]...To Impartial Reporter" 10/7/1909. [/color][/quote] I appreciate all you have been through and the struggles you are faced with Nate. God does know the heart and he understands where you are at.[/quote] Ditto.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 14, 2010 7:23:21 GMT -5
I appreciate all you have been through and the struggles you are faced with Nate. God does know the heart and he understands where you are at. Ditto. Tri-itto!
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Post by sharonw on Apr 14, 2010 7:25:01 GMT -5
This statement made me blink and reread a few times....... There isn't even a fine line dividing the two!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2010 11:02:48 GMT -5
Does anyone know the name of the sister from whom William Irvine is alleged to have received information about home meetings and connections with the Swiss Alps? I understand he may have had 6 sisters?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2010 11:09:32 GMT -5
Thanks Nathan. Much appreciated. I'm assuming it's "Margaret," rather than an unusual spelling?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2010 11:45:50 GMT -5
Thanks Nathan. If Margaret Irvine died in 1886 it could not have been her who may yet be alleged to have written letters to the Editor of the Impartial Reporter complaining of the bad press the tramp preachers were getting in the early 1900s. A more likely candidate is Dorothy Irvine, but acting on the information imparted to her by her late sister Margaret. Time to dig into the Imagi vaults I reckon.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 14, 2010 14:47:31 GMT -5
I think in all reality the "connection" if there is any reall connection of WI's sister to anything, it would be the fact that WI was greatly grieved at this sister's young age at dying...these kind of things are a normal phenomenon...when a family looses a very young family member often different members of that family will turn to religion...
That does not say that the sister led WI to any apostolic succession at all...but it got WI very serious about the estate of his soul and he begin searching for what seemed right....more then likely hurriedly confessing Christ under the denominational preacher and feeling a need to tell everybody else about Christ, he begin to search how to do that...he sit in seminary classes though not to credit and learned some of what was taught there...apparently not finishing even in auditing the courses...found the Faith Mission which gladly added him to their roles of workers and on and on and on until he and some others decided they wanted to do what they did...it proved quite successful in their experiment and it has come on down to this day.
Regardless, WI founded what he found.....there is NO proof though there is some suppositions from either side of the coin....
I honestly believe that it is manmade for the simple reason the deceitfulness, the immorality would not have been from WI on down the line to today in the workership! Even Jesus Apostles were quite open and out and out helpful until Satan entered into Judas Iscariot...thoug admittedly Jesus knew all along that would happen...before that time Judas enjoyed and did everything else the Apostles did...we cannot excuse the things that are negative and have flourished due to the deceitfulness of those in charge handling these affairs.
There have been some who have been honest in their efforts to teach the gospel the best way they knew how, though it has become watered down with the homeless ministry as the backbone of the belief system instead of Christ being the ONLY belief.
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Post by JO on Apr 14, 2010 14:54:17 GMT -5
The "Shores of Galilee" theorists have got a long way to go before their story makes any sense.
If affiliation with a one-true-way 2x2 ministry organization is what determines authentic Christianity then they need to find two sisters in the Imagi vault for William Irvine to profess through.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2010 14:57:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the tip JO. I'll keep it in mind.
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Post by JO on Apr 14, 2010 16:26:32 GMT -5
Hey Ram, please also keep in mind that the facts should never get in the way of a good story.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2010 17:35:01 GMT -5
Hey Ram, please also keep in mind that the facts should never get in the way of a good story. Yes JO, agreed, but remember too, that "facts" and a "good story" should never get in the way of "Truth!" One has to seek the truth in the largest nation in the world, where the imagi repository exists! I'm away to do some research.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 14, 2010 18:36:43 GMT -5
Hey Ram, please also keep in mind that the facts should never get in the way of a good story. Yes JO, agreed, but remember too, that "facts" and a "good story" should never get in the way of "Truth!" One has to seek the truth in the largest nation in the world, where the imagi repository exists! I'm away to do some research. Facts? Truth? What is this, some kinda history board? Can we get back to religion?
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