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Post by emy on Apr 12, 2010 18:41:13 GMT -5
... The only thing that is right is a personal relationship with God. And that relationship leads to fellowship with others who have that relationship. The "body" thus formed is described like this: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.(Eph. 4:16 (emphasis mine)
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Post by sharonw on Apr 12, 2010 18:54:14 GMT -5
An exclusvie worship tends to judge against the members of the whole body that are the least visible, the least desirable but the body cannot be whole without them. I personally believe that to say a church is the "ONLY true church" is being discriminating and being judgmental against members of the body when it is the head who should be judging the members all together and it's my understanding that the "head" of the spiritual body is Christ.
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Post by JO on Apr 12, 2010 19:15:22 GMT -5
... The only thing that is right is a personal relationship with God. And that relationship leads to fellowship with others who have that relationship. The "body" thus formed is described like this: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.(Eph. 4:16 (emphasis mine) True. Let's not rely on man to decide who the members of the body are.
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Post by emy on Apr 12, 2010 19:26:04 GMT -5
And that relationship leads to fellowship with others who have that relationship. The "body" thus formed is described like this: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.(Eph. 4:16 (emphasis mine) True. Let's not rely on man to decide who the members of the body are. No, let's watch for the effectual working and the compact connection.
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Post by open mind on Apr 12, 2010 19:46:17 GMT -5
We had avery upset lady in the meeting yesterday because someone had told her through the week that the 'truth' didnt start from the shores of galilee...she went on to say how the devil gets into people so easily and she is glad for the wokers 'reassurance' that it was from Jesus.... Let's pretend this story is actually true. What this woman needs to do is go see the church which claims an unbroken line of succession from the shores of Galilee - the Roman Catholic Church. Means nothing. And then she needs to understand that ALL Christian churches form a direct line to the first Apostles. And then she must understand we have never claimed to be from an unbroken line of apostles. And if she is prepared to pay her way, she can go try the spirits of these churches. Are you calling me a liar Bert? Great call coming from someone whose name means Bulls$@t Extraordinaire Regarding Truth (meetings)
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Post by JO on Apr 12, 2010 20:14:11 GMT -5
We had avery upset lady in the meeting yesterday because someone had told her through the week that the 'truth' didnt start from the shores of galilee...she went on to say how the devil gets into people so easily and she is glad for the wokers 'reassurance' that it was from Jesus.... Let's pretend this story is actually true. What this woman needs to do is go see the church which claims an unbroken line of succession from the shores of Galilee - the Roman Catholic Church. Means nothing. And then she needs to understand that ALL Christian churches form a direct line to the first Apostles. And then she must understand we have never claimed to be from an unbroken line of apostles. And if she is prepared to pay her way, she can go try the spirits of these churches. This woman is not alone - MANY people have been distressed to have discovered they have been lied to by the ministry. This SHOULD be of concern to workers and friends. MANY people have testified about their distress on finding out the TRUTH about the history of the fellowship and salt is often rubbed into the wound when they try to discuss it intelligently with workers and friends. To shrug it off and blame the victim is NOT the attitude of Christ. It leaves two possibilities in my opinion: 1. There has been a deliberate attempt to mislead, or 2. The doctrine taught has been so sloppy that a wrong impression was gained by MANY people. Either way, its time for friends and workers to examine themselves, repent, and teach the gospel message with clarity.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 12, 2010 20:58:35 GMT -5
True. Let's not rely on man to decide who the members of the body are. No, let's watch for the effectual working and the compact connection. I have noticed since leaving the fellowship and get rid of the "only true way all the way back to the shores of Galilee" mindset or indoctrination...that I've actaully witnessed MORE people with fevant zeal and love for Jesus Christ OUTSIDE the fellowship....I am overwhelmed at what I'm finding!
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Post by JO on Apr 12, 2010 20:58:47 GMT -5
With the leading of the Spirit... People can tell whether the 2x2s is a man-made system or God-made system. [/color][/quote] I agree. The 2x2 system is man-made, but God is able to work in the hearts and lives of individual friends and workers in spite of the system rather than because of the system. There are friends and workers who I can have spiritual fellowship with because they have a close relationship with God. Others are taken up with the cameraderie of one-true-wayism which leaves God and his Christ out in the cold.
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Post by emy on Apr 12, 2010 21:17:40 GMT -5
No, let's watch for the effectual working and the compact connection. I have noticed since leaving the fellowship and get rid of the "only true way all the way back to the shores of Galilee" mindset or indoctrination...that I've actaully witnessed MORE people with fevant zeal and love for Jesus Christ OUTSIDE the fellowship....I am overwhelmed at what I'm finding! Can you please describe what you have witnessed specifically?
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Post by open mind on Apr 12, 2010 21:34:59 GMT -5
Nathan you are like a broken record.............
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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2010 22:00:06 GMT -5
Nathan you are like a broken record............. ~~ Yes, I have been for the last 10 yrs on different TMB message boards ;D It's coming clear and clear every day as we listen to it. Well they do say that is someone repeats something often enough they do begin to believe it, so I believe you believe it...
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Post by JO on Apr 12, 2010 22:04:22 GMT -5
Nathan, you've been promoting one-true-wayism but you're backing the wrong horse.
The real strength of the fellowship is not the system-worshippers.
It's the Christ-worshippers.
System worship leads people away from Christ.
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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2010 22:05:54 GMT -5
Well they do say that is someone repeats something often enough they do begin to believe it, so I believe you believe it... ~~ Information is available so let the readers investigate and decide these things for themselves.Okay then, which first christian church did the 2x2's come from? There were many.
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Post by Rob Sargison on Apr 12, 2010 22:22:41 GMT -5
Nathan you are like a broken record............. Nate's not broke, he's a Long-Player, with four legs and tail he'd be a stayer..... I think there is a song somewhere there..
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Post by JO on Apr 12, 2010 22:42:02 GMT -5
Okay then, which first christian church did the 2x2's come from? There were many. ~~ Only God knows which apostles' mission survived that WI's sister met in 1800's. Jesus sent out the 12, the 70, and more apostles in the book of Acts.... and many, many more through the centuries.
We know the Vaudois believers came from Paul's missions in Rome, Italy 68 A.D.
The Pilgrim Church by Broadbent. The Vaudois (A.D. 68-1800) are in fact descended from those refugees from Italy, who after Paul had preached the gospel, abandoned their beautiful country and fled (due to persecution from those in Rome) like the woman (Rev. 12) to these wild mountains (Alps) in Switzerland, where they have to this day handed down the Gospel from father to son, in the same purity and simplicity as it was preached by Paul.
We dont know the Vaudois believers came from Paul's missions in Rome, Italy 68 A.D. And we don't know William Irvine's sister was a Vaudois 2x2 preacher who preached the gospel to him in the 1890s before she died from being shut out of her parent's home and spending the night in the cold. But perhaps if we repeat it often enough it will be believed? Perhaps I could add: If this convoluted saga WAS believed would it help people into a closer relationship with Christ? Or would it boost their confidence and pride that they alone belong to the one-true-way church system that leads to salvation? "Lord I'm thankful that I'm not like other men who don't belong to the one true church".
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 12, 2010 22:53:28 GMT -5
Nathan, my friend, Do you suppose it would make Jesus feel sad when his followers feel and teach that HE is not enough, not sufficient, HIS sacrifice not acceptable on it's own, belief in HIM alone is not promoted, but instead it is taught as doctrine that it is Jesus PLUS a certain fellowship or Jesus PLUS a method or Jesus PLUS this or that. It makes me sad to see that being taught and promoted. No gospel (good news) at all, because MANY people simply cannot jump through that manmade "hoop", even if they tried, like many of us did. JESUS IS ALL SUFFICIENT for salvation. Like one of "the friends" said publicly in our conversation, a few years ago now "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved- FULL STOP" Amen, and if you're reading here, ---, THank you for your encouragement , and reinforcing that there are believers trusting in Christ and in Christ alone for their salvation, in many and varying religions , which do not necassarily teach that truth. Nathan, I pray you too could someday do that. Love ya' bro' Alvin
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Post by open mind on Apr 12, 2010 23:00:27 GMT -5
3) Do you have some primary evidence for this? ~~ Just from reading John Long's Journal, Pattison's account, Robert Darling's testimony, George Walker's testimony. ;D Nathan, can you please provide quotes from this evidence that backs up this claim that WI heard it from his sister?
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Post by JO on Apr 12, 2010 23:10:58 GMT -5
Nate, can you find some primary evidence that backs up the William Irvine's sister story?
See if you can find a tablet somewhere - it worked for Joseph Smith.
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 12, 2010 23:13:22 GMT -5
With the leading of the Spirit... People can tell whether the 2x2s is a man-made system or God-made system.I agree with that statement. Yep. It is just another man-made denomination. Scott
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Post by JO on Apr 12, 2010 23:28:57 GMT -5
That's not primary evidence, but thanks for the link Nathan. Obviously we're going over the same stuff again:
*********************************************
1) September wrote: You do know that story about WI's sister is a load of pants, Nathan? WI said he got saved through a Presbyterian minister so ought you not give more credence WI's claim than some senile ramblings of an old man who "suddenly" remembered a load of truths, half-truths and plain fabrications at the end of his life and generously deigned to share with the great unwashed in order to help preserve the party line of a heritage stretching back to the days of Christ.
And I dare say you'd be surprised at how much some workers actually know about the origins. Do you think for a minute that some of the old stagers in Ireland who in their youth were companions with some of the first wave of workers had their ears plugged so as not to hear any scandalous stories of an earthly founder? Unfortunately not many are prepared to broadcast it as there is still a great number of people who know nothing of the origins and to admit now that the claims were lies still has the potential to rock the foundations of the fellowship.
~~ N9: William Irivine sister's story makes a lot of sense now! How WI's sister told him about the 2x2 apostolic New Testament church.
In 1897 William Irvine was 100% Faith Mission preacher! from 1895-1900. In 1897 John Long was a preacher for the Methodist denomination. There was NO 2x2s church formed or started in 1897 by these two men missions.
~~~ John Long wrote in 12/1898 "The mission ended with an all day conference, that was attended by many noble servants of the Lord, among them was George C. Grubb, whose testimony concerning going on Faith lines helped me to make the final decision that night. William Irvine wanted me to join the Faith Mission, but I was not clear about it being the will of God, only to venture out on unsectarian Lines of Faith.
The powerful principal of Irvine's way of discipline; also the standard of obedience, self denial and liberty, imitating the pattern as seen in Jesus; were sure to clash with the ritual and rules of ecclesiastical ministry; and the opposition to his method became more and more manifest every day; so that it meant either a reformation with the one, or a separation by the other.
Irvine being a man of foresight, and feeling the tremendous responsibility of being a reformer and leader against his will, made him give a soul touching and loving address; and left the conference with a broken Spirit, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief, like His Master."
From John Long's Journal: 12/1900 DECEMBER, 1900:
About that time William Irvine left the Faith Mission. All who knew the man was acquainted with the fact that he did not covet or desire to start a new sect or Mission; and his leaving the Faith Mission was not without feeling the risk and responsibility of doing so; but circumstances and events rendered it necessary.
Some workers who gave up their situations to go fully in the Lord’s work were not accepted by the Faith Mission; others did not feel led to join it; and others believed in being more like the pattern as seen in Jesus, and reforming according to the ideal church in the Acts of the Apostles; among the latter was Edward Cooney, who had newly started out, became a strenuous advocate.
Most of these workers were either young converts or disciples of William Irvine; and it became impossible for him to be true to the rules of the Faith Mission and to them; so he resigned the one and entered enthusiastically into the other.
~~~ 1897: Goodhand Pattison (ex-Methodist later became a member of a Go-Preacher group) wrote in Accounts of the Early Days:
"Anyhow he [William Irvine] came along to Nenagh and had meetings in the Methodist Chapel and inside about a fortnight (I think) he had succeeded in causing such a stir in religious, and for that matter irreligious, circles as had been entirely unknown there.
Reports reached us at Cloughjordan about this strange man (William Irvine) and his strange methods, etc. Nearly every highly unconventional--forms, rules and usages were either discarded or flung ruthlessly aside; instead of the 'beaten path' of (1) Sing, (2) Prayer, (3) Singing, (4) Scripture reading, (5) Sermon, taken from a well chosen text, with its well-studied 1stly, 2ndly, 3rdly, 4thly; and application, etc., then Hymn and Doxology."
G. Pattison wrote about the success of the Nenagh mission, in which both Jack and May Carroll professed, and along with about 40 others, became Faith Mission Prayer Union members: "One never knew from first to last what was going to come next with him [William Irvine], sometimes hardly any sermon, at other times nearly all sermons; sometime give out a hymn, and from some thought therein start talking to end of meeting and never sing a hymn at all; sometimes sing half a hymn standing, remainder sitting; sometimes nearly all racy anecdotes with plenty smiles and laughter, at other times soul-stirring exhortation, backed by sad and tragic experiences, etc.
All this added freshness and life to the words of one whose intense earnestness and wholehearted zeal and devotion none of us had seen before, and no wonder that the Nenagh (certainly not at that time overburdened with much more than the merest husk and shell in religion) had some of its best type powerfully appealed to, and yielded quite a crop of decisions for God, the following being some of them: Miss Oakely, who was then a teacher belonging to the Birr Oakelys, sister of Geo. Loney and cousin of Geo. Coughlan and Hotel [?] Mrs. Williams; E. Bradshaw, Allen Harkness and sister, Jack Carroll and sister May; who were then living with their Uncle Pat, an exclusive Plym [Plymouth Brethren]; Richard Norman and a young man named Fred Hughes. This last named went with William Irvine for a little while shortly afterwards and played, sang, etc., also a young man named Wallace, and I think his sister, both from Templederry side, but then in situations in Nenagh. Probably there were others of whom I cannot now remember..." (Accounts of the Early Days)
Faith Mission published a glowing report of the Nenagh Mission in their periodical Bright Words, April 15, 1898. After all, it was a mission held by their Pilgrim workers under their umbrella: "NENAGH.--Eight months ago, before the advent of the Faith Mission, it would have been almost impossible to unearth more than a dozen live Christians in this town; but now, praise the Lord, we have forty-one Prayer Union members, all trusting in Jesus, together with a number of other Christians who received blessing and help during the missions held by Pilgrim Irvine, and Pilgrims Pendreigh and M'Lean.
When Pilgrim Irvine arrived here last August, he found the spiritual light of the place burning dimly. However, before he closed a six weeks' mission, several back-sliders were restored, and a number of souls had yielded to the Holy Spirit's pleading, and are now rejoicing in the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus. Those who then took a decided stand for God have had to endure a considerable amount of opposition, but not one has gone back; on the contrary, almost all have crowned Jesus King, and are determined to be true to Him at any cost. Hallelujah!"
"Pilgrims Pendreigh and M`Lean have just closed a sixteen days' mission in connection with our Prayer Union....The mission closed with a tea-meeting, which proved a complete success, and a time of refreshing in every sense of the word. Pilgrims Irvine and Hughes came over from Borrisokane for the occasion. All present were delighted to see our two brothers again. The first-named delivered a very telling and suitable address, and the latter gave us a few words of encouragement, which were appreciated by all his Nenagh friends.
The meeting was then left open for testimonies, each one telling what the Lord had done for them, and several praising God for the Faith Mission, and for Pilgrim Irvine in particular, and also for sending the sisters to Nenagh...The Lord's work is progressing in this neighborhood in the face of a lot of opposition. Missions have already been held in Roscrea, Cloughjordan, Finnoe and Borrisokane, and at present Pilgrims Pendreigh and M`Lean are working in Shinrone, Pilgrim Irvine in Templederry...all within a radius of twenty miles from Nenagh..." (Bright Words, April 15, 1898)
~~ N9: Some of WI's converts such as Jack Carroll became Faith Mission members and preacher, May Carroll in 1899.... Something happened when WI went home to attend his mother's funeral in Scotland November, 1897.
~~~ John Govan, the Faith Mission founder in 1886 teachings: .... It is understood that our work is essentially Itinerant, not the establishment of permanent station, but the special mission in of places for brief periods, passing on afterwards to other parts. We do not wish in any way to interfere with "Denominational" preferences and distinctions, but leave those who get help through our missions to attach themselves to WHATEVER church, chapel, or meeting-house they choose!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2010 0:25:08 GMT -5
~~ Yes, I have been for the last 10 yrs on different TMB message boards ;D It's coming clear and clear every day as we listen to it. Well they do say that is someone repeats something often enough they do begin to believe it, so I believe you believe it... Yeah... Irvine, Irvine, Irvine.........
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Post by JO on Apr 13, 2010 1:29:39 GMT -5
Yeah... Irvine, Irvine, Irvine......... ~~ For more than 10 yrs many believe William Irvine was the founder because many ex-websites support/promote he was the FOUNDER of the 2x2.... Now, the cat is out of the bag... WI couldn't be the founder of the New Testament church/ministry because Jesus started/found and paid it with his own life. WI just copied or followed the pattern which Jesus started from the shores of Galilee when he said to Peter, James, and John, " Come and follow me, I will make you fishers of men." founder1 n a person who establishes an institution, company, society, etc.William Irvine was NOT the founder of the concept of going out to preach 2x2. William Irvine WAS the founder of the mission that evolved into the 2x2 church we know today.
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Post by kiwi on Apr 13, 2010 2:24:01 GMT -5
Will the circle of Willie Irvine be unbroken? Around and around we go where we stop nobody knows. ;D
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Post by kiwi on Apr 13, 2010 2:28:01 GMT -5
And that relationship leads to fellowship with others who have that relationship. The "body" thus formed is described like this: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.(Eph. 4:16 (emphasis mine) True. Let's not rely on man to decide who the members of the body are. Why not? many in the Bible have done so
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2010 3:08:09 GMT -5
~~ N9: Some of WI's converts such as Jack Carroll became Faith Mission members and preacher, May Carroll in 1899.... Something happened when WI went home to attend his mother's funeral in Scotland November, 1897.
Nathan, I think you are stretching things by inferring members of the Irvine family attended the Motherwell Gatherings of Saints in 1897. There is nothing that I have seen in any records to suggest this.
True, Motherwell was only a short journey from the Irvine family home, but you just cannot assume that is where William's sister heard about the itinerant form of ministry. There is not even a tenuous link.
Yes the Polish preachers, Herr Bata and Kawa Prosze dominated some of these meetings, but they preached in the Tatra mountain regions of what is now Poland and Slovakia, NOT the Alps! They were able to do this because they were horse owners who had large stables in the village of Glupy near Krakow in southern Poland.
They would regularly mount up and go on short "commissions" to the people of the mountain passes, freely preaching the word. Incidentally, both were married.
On occasion the citizens of Krakow would attend their horse ranch where the stables were cleaned out to accomodate the gatherings. Some of these gatherings lasted up to three weeks in length. Now have the F&W's ever had gatherings lasting 3 weeks?
Incidentally, sparce food was served at these gatherings because of the times, but one delicacy, "Boczan jiko" was regularly consumed. Herr Bata and Kawa Prosze always carried bags of tea and coffee which they served up to all who would come and listen to them. They were well reknowned for this practice.
Now please do not try and establish a link between these people and the Irvine family. Apart from the fact they were only a stone's throw apart for a short time in history, there is not even the remotest link.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2010 8:29:38 GMT -5
ram, after reading that little piece, I think you missed your calling!
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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2010 9:53:00 GMT -5
founder1 n a person who establishes an institution, company, society, etc.William Irvine was NOT the founder of the concept of going out to preach 2x2. William Irvine WAS the founder of the mission that evolved into the 2x2 church we know today. ~~ How could WI be the founder of the 2x2 church as we know today when his sister had heard it first and told him about Jesus apostolic faith and the New Testament Itinerant ministry?Well if there was already a church started that they knew about, why didn't they just join it instead of starting a new one?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2010 10:07:18 GMT -5
Well if there was already a church started that they knew about, why didn't they just join it instead of starting a new one? ~~ How can you start something when already there.... they just continue what they heard and seen.Nathan, I share your perseverence in attempting to establish an unbroken link between the early Apostles and today's workers. As you can see, I'm researching areas not covered by the internet. Clearday is right. I have missed my calling, but ya know bro, the truth is out there somewhere. Maybe it's over the rainbow?
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