christopher
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"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." -Ps. 27:8
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Post by christopher on Apr 5, 2010 21:09:46 GMT -5
So it was really a national holiday of sorts, the Feast of Purim. That's how I have taken it. Like the 4th of July in the US, or Cinco de Mayo in Mexico. Bert - Just like you started your Flat Bread Day, the children of Israel also started their own annual holy day in remembrance of their deliverance. It was the Feast of Purim, and Bib Bible doesnt record that God objected to it. ("I'm not sure what your FB Day is in honor of--perhaps the TMB?) The "Feast of Purim" was NOT one of the seven feasts that God instituted at Mt. Sinai after Israel came out of Egypt. Alfred Edersheim, D.D., Ph.D., in his book The Temple (Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co.) states: “Besides the festivals mentioned in the law of Moses, other festive seasons were also observed at the time of our Lord, to perpetuate the memory either of great national deliverances or great national calamities (p. 330).” The Jews initiated the ‘Feast of Purim’ after God miraculously delivered them from an extermination plot (Esther 9:17-24). Israel celebrated the ‘Feast of Purim’ on the 14th and 15th of the month Adar (March). According to the Dictionary of the Bible, the ‘Feast of Purim’ was never a national feast day that called for attendance at Jerusalem. However, Dr. Edersheim in his book Temple states it was a very popular festival (p. 331). On the 13th of Adar the Jews got their vengeance on their enemies instead of Haman destroying them (Est. 9:1-15). Mordecai made a proclamation, which began the feast of Purim. “And Mordecai wrote these things, and sent letters unto all the Jews that were in all the provinces of the king Ahasuerus, both nigh and far, To stablish this among them, that they should keep the fourteenth day of the month Adar, and the fifteenth day of the same, yearly, As the days wherein the Jews rested from their enemies, and the month which was turned unto them from sorrow to joy, and from mourning into a good day: that they should make them days of feasting and joy, and of sending portions one to another, and gifts to the poor (Esther 9:20-22)." A friend asked me, “ Don’t you observe Easter, it’s in the bible, isn’t it?”I replied, " I respect Easter. It reminds me there is still some recognition of God in the world. But there was no Easter in the apostolic church. Easter is a contrived "holy" event, added to scripture by man. I took up a piece of flat bread (called Pita bread here) to make an analogy, “ This is how these holy days start. Let’s invent our own, say... Flat Bread Day!!” “ Flat Bread Day?!” my friend retorted. I went on, “ Most bread is high bread, but pita bread lies low. Just like those who bowed before Jesus! We could establish flatbread holidays, flatbread ceremonies and the like. And if anyone challenges us that there is no such ceremony in the bible we will remind them of our proof texts – those who bowed low before Christ.” And add verse and chapter for effect.This is how holy days start.The historian Scholasticus wrote, " The apostles had no thought of appointing festival days, but of promoting a life of blamelessness and piety." Scholasticus attributes the observance of Easter, for instance, to the perpetuation of local custom, " just as many other customs have been established."Paul wrote to the “foolish Galatians”, “…how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.” And to the Colossians he wrote, " So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”
So people were asking similar questions back then! And this is how alternate religion stakes its claim to Christ. This is where Saints Days; Septuagesima; Rogation Sunday; Quinquagesima; Ascension; Ash Wednesday; Pentecost; Palm Sunday; Trinity Sunday; Good Friday; Corpus Christi, Lent and Passiontide; Assumption of Mary, Christmas and Easter come from.
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Post by freespirit on Apr 5, 2010 21:17:20 GMT -5
We should help the workers, those needy in our fellowship first before helping others. Charity begins at home first. Or the workers could use the hands and arms and legs that God gave them to follow what Paul said: 2 Thessalonians 3:7For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. But, nah... they don't wanna do that. So, I'll stick my money in an envelope and pay them off the same as I do for preachers when I visit other churches. I saw on the news the other day where a church gave away a free BMW. Maybe we could do that at convention. ;D fs
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Post by freespirit on Apr 5, 2010 21:25:58 GMT -5
Sounds fine to me... but... uh... when are they going to start doing that?
fs
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Post by emy on Apr 5, 2010 21:29:14 GMT -5
Sounds fine to me... but... uh... when are they going to start doing that? fs When their followers don't support them! << Some of his own followers didn't want to support his ministry because of the false brethren who caused his converts to doubt about his apostleship and ministry calling was from God.... So, Paul to work to support himself so they couldn't accused Paul of taken the advantage of them. >> So stop putting that money in envelopes if you want working ministers. ;D
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Post by freespirit on Apr 5, 2010 21:29:32 GMT -5
But when are they going to start caring for the church full time? From what I see they do a lot of gossiping and running from house to house. I can't figure out why they are on the payroll.
fs
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 5, 2010 21:32:15 GMT -5
~~ When the friends Don't support the workers or their ministry anymore! Actually, quite a few aren't supporting the ministry like they used to. I hear of quite a few that attend Sunday morning meetings and Wednesday night bible studies, but skip the gospel meetings. The ones I have discussed this with mention that if they have workers in the area that are poor speakers or 'system preachers', then they see no need to attend the gospel meetings. They aren't getting anything out of them, but they do in their other meetings. It seems that they get much more encouragement and a better message from the friends than they do from the workers. Scott
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Post by emy on Apr 5, 2010 21:32:23 GMT -5
But when are they going to start caring for the church full time? From what I see they do a lot of gossiping and running from house to house. I can't figure out why they are on the payroll. fs Now you are just yanking Nate's chain!
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Post by freespirit on Apr 5, 2010 21:34:20 GMT -5
So stop putting that money in envelopes if you want working ministers. ;D I am happy to support the ones who work. The ones who flop down on living room floors to read comic books and then preach about TV instead of God aren't doing the church much good IMO. fs
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Post by StAnne on Apr 5, 2010 22:04:25 GMT -5
St Anne Regarding your post "how do 2X2 believe they receive the Holy Spirit?" Jesus said in John 11:13....If you then , though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" I see what you're referring to in Luke 11:13 with the parallel of Matthew 7:11.
If that's how it's to be done, shouldn't we have been so instructed as a youth making a profession of faith and being baptized? I surely don't recall receiving that instruction.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 22:04:38 GMT -5
Agreed. I will go out on a limb here and say that I suspect not only the Purim ceremony but the whole book of Esther. Historians consider this a "novella." Am I right, is Esther the book which doesn't mention God? Same too with the synagogues - there were not authorized by God, though Jesus attended them. Same can be said for many things in the Old Testament (such as divorce) which God did not approve of.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 5, 2010 22:18:04 GMT -5
StAnne, this is exactly my point. By way of example, where in the bible does it say was can't celebrate Flatbread Day? If I establish Flatbread Day then won't YOU add it to your liturgical calendar? AND, as an aside - I just looked up Pentecost again. Wikipedia has it in beside the Temple Court! I thought it was in someone's house! Some are trying to say that the spirit continued in the Temple after the crucifixion. StAnne, this is exactly my point. By way of example, where in the bible does it say was can't celebrate Flatbread Day? If I establish Flatbread Day then won't YOU add it to your liturgical calendar? I dunno Bert. Can you provide some biblical reference for Flat Bread Day? We Catholics tend to like some biblical reference for establishing feast days...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 22:29:18 GMT -5
StAnne, there are plenty of references to being low, even flat (!) in the bible. Here is just one, "Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face."
Our Flatbread Day can be a celebration of the vision given to Balaam. It isn't adding to the bible, at all, is it?
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Post by StAnne on Apr 5, 2010 22:31:38 GMT -5
StAnne, this is exactly my point. By way of example, where in the bible does it say was can't celebrate Flatbread Day? If I establish Flatbread Day then won't YOU add it to your liturgical calendar? AND, as an aside - I just looked up Pentecost again. Wikipedia has it in beside the Temple Court! I thought it was in someone's house! Some are trying to say that the spirit continued in the Temple after the crucifixion. AND, as an aside - I just looked up Pentecost again. Wikipedia has it in beside the Temple Court! I thought it was in someone's house! It is Catholic teaching that Mary and the Apostles were in the Upper Room. "And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a mighty wind coming, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them parted tongues as it were of fire, and it sat upon every one of them: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak. [Acts 2:2-4] Christ had promised His Apostles that He would send His Holy Spirit, and, on Pentecost, they were granted the gifts of the Spirit. The Apostles began to preach the Gospel in all of the languages that the Jews who were gathered there spoke, and about 3,000 people were converted and baptized that day." catholicism.about.com/od/holydaysandholidays/p/Pentecost.htmSo...perhaps the Jews were gathered in the Temple Court?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 22:34:47 GMT -5
As part of the have-it-both-ways process here, we have people stating the early Christians didn't have churches for fear of the Jews, and then others (or the same people?!) saying that the Christians met right in the Temple itself!
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Post by StAnne on Apr 5, 2010 22:39:24 GMT -5
StAnne, there are plenty of references to being low, even flat (!) in the bible. Here is just one, " Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face."Our Flatbed Day can be a celebration of the vision given to Balaam. It isn't adding to the bible, at all, is it? I believe I asked you specifically about Pentecost? Reply #63. You seem unable to respond to that so you have to move to the ridiculous? Pathetic attempt to deflect and derail noted.
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Post by freespirit on Apr 5, 2010 22:39:43 GMT -5
StAnne, there are plenty of references to being low, even flat (!) in the bible. Here is just one, " Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face."Our Flatbed Day can be a celebration of the vision given to Balaam. It isn't adding to the bible, at all, is it? Should I make some hummus for Flatbread Day? fs
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 5, 2010 22:41:00 GMT -5
As part of the have-it-both-ways process here, we have people stating the early Christians didn't have churches for fear of the Jews, and then others (or the same people?!) saying that the Christians met right in the Temple itself! bert. It is well documented in the bible that the Christians continued to go to the temples and synagogues. Glad to have you point out that fact! What's with the persecution issue with you tonight? Didn't that come later on in history? It is pretty well documented that Christians were persecuted rather severely later on. Scott
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christopher
Senior Member
"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." -Ps. 27:8
Posts: 304
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Post by christopher on Apr 5, 2010 22:41:28 GMT -5
StAnne, there are plenty of references to being low, even flat (!) in the bible. Here is just one, " Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face."Our Flatbed Day can be a celebration of the vision given to Balaam. It isn't adding to the bible, at all, is it? Should I make some hummus for Flatbread Day? fs I like hummus. When can we start this?
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Post by StAnne on Apr 5, 2010 22:45:10 GMT -5
As part of the have-it-both-ways process here, we have people stating the early Christians didn't have churches for fear of the Jews, and then others (or the same people?!) saying that the Christians met right in the Temple itself! You and I recently discussed at length that the early Christians continued in the temple/synagogues for some time.
A lengthy time, in fact...and carried much of the liturgy into the early church.
They prayed and worshipped in temple/synagogue on the sabbath and met on the first day of the week for the Eucharist.
They did this until they were no longer welcome in the temple/synagogue.
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Post by freespirit on Apr 5, 2010 22:46:11 GMT -5
Should I make some hummus for Flatbread Day? fs I like hummus. When can we start this? I have some chickpeas and garlic so I could start anytime. ;D Should I make some baked kibbie too? fs
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 22:48:13 GMT -5
St.Anne, there are two issues running here - Pentacost and your question...
No, I don't believe in Pentacost Day, but I do believe that God appeared and gave His approval of that little home meeting, in the same way He approved of Solomon's Temple by appearing in the cloud.
But... don't YOU believe that Balaam fell down flat before the angel of God? Shouldn't we remember this? Isn't this relevant to us all? So why shouldn't we remember it for all time?
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christopher
Senior Member
"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." -Ps. 27:8
Posts: 304
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Post by christopher on Apr 5, 2010 22:59:06 GMT -5
I like hummus. When can we start this? I have some chickpeas and garlic so I could start anytime. ;D Should I make some baked kibbie too? fs Well, once Bert gets it all defined, then we'll know what we're celebrating. I think we should have a meeting on it though. I'm not sure about the Balaam thing. Maybe something else about flat. I mean, bread sounds good, and I like flat bread. Less carbs. And it's very versatile. Maybe we could go with an unleavened bread parallel about not leavening the whole loaf or something. Where's JMS when you need him?
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Post by freespirit on Apr 5, 2010 23:20:37 GMT -5
Well, once Bert gets it all defined, then we'll know what we're celebrating. I think we should have a meeting on it though. I'm not sure about the Balaam thing. Maybe something else about flat. I mean, bread sounds good, and I like flat bread. Less carbs. And it's very versatile. Maybe we could go with an unleavened bread parallel about not leavening the whole loaf or something. H'mmmmmmmmm.... I guess we could celebrate because it's a good day to be flat-out happy. Or maybe because the world isn't flat anymore. I plan to wear flats (instead of stilettos) tomorrow. To me, that's a good reason to celebrate. ;D ;D fs
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 23:34:04 GMT -5
As part of the have-it-both-ways process here, we have people stating the early Christians didn't have churches for fear of the Jews, and then others (or the same people?!) saying that the Christians met right in the Temple itself! bert. It is well documented in the bible that the Christians continued to go to the temples and synagogues. Glad to have you point out that fact! What's with the persecution issue with you tonight? Didn't that come later on in history? It is pretty well documented that Christians were persecuted rather severely later on. Scott Scott, I reckon you should read this, taken from Science Daily about older bikies. Makes you think! www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100405102116.htmRe temple and synagogue. Some Christians did continue to attend these after Jesus, but not for long. Firstly many were banned from synagogues, and I wonder if this would have shifted to the temple before it was destroyed? But... Christian doctrine held that God does not dwell in temples made with hands, thus negating its importance to them.
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BaPa
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Post by BaPa on Apr 5, 2010 23:37:02 GMT -5
Hey, I made flat bread (potato lefsa) for communion! Everyone loved it. I did put cinnamon sugar and butter on it. Best communion everyone ever had. lol
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 5, 2010 23:53:11 GMT -5
StAnne, there are plenty of references to being low, even flat (!) in the bible. Here is just one, " Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face."Our Flatbread Day can be a celebration of the vision given to Balaam. It isn't adding to the bible, at all, is it? I prefer this one Bert. Rev 1: 17 and when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead, and he laid his right hand upon me saying unto me, fear not, I am the first and the last. (meaning Jesus)
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Post by StAnne on Apr 5, 2010 23:56:31 GMT -5
No, I don't believe in Pentacost Day, but I do believe that God appeared and gave His approval of that little home meeting, I didn't read about "the little home meeting" in Acts 2. Are you adding to the Bible?
I don't believe God will mind that we commemorate the very dramatic beginnings of the new covenant church. It isn't as if he quietly slipped into "the little home meeting" as you like to refer to it and whispered to Mary and the Apostles.
No. God made it memorable for a reason, and not just to those who were gathered in the Upper Room, but also to the thousands gathered in Jerusalem.
God made it memorable, and that is why we commemorate it even to this day.
Acts 2 2 And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind, and it filled the entire house in which they were. 3 Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, which parted and came to rest on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues, 4 as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim. 5 Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven staying in Jerusalem. 6 At this sound, they gathered in a large crowd, but they were confused because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 They were astounded...
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 5, 2010 23:57:36 GMT -5
You and I recently discussed at length that the early Christians continued in the temple/synagogues for some time.
A lengthy time, in fact...and carried much of the liturgy into the early church.
They prayed and worshipped in temple/synagogue on the sabbath and met on the first day of the week for the Eucharist.
They did this until they were no longer welcome in the temple/synagogue.
~~ Jesus, the apostles, and the disciples went to the temple court yard and the synagogues to TEACH and making converts.
Matthew 4:23 Jesus went about all Galilee TEACHING in their synagouges, and PREACHING the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
Matthew 9:35 Jesus went about all cities, villages, teachings in THEIR synagogues, and PREACHING the gospel of the kingdom...
Acts 4:1-4 5000 were saved when the apostles Taught and Preached in the temple court yard!
Acts 17:1-4 As Paul custom was, went to the Jews synagouge and three Sabbath days REASONED with them out of the Scriptures, EXPLANING! and PROVING, that Christ must needs had suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus whom I PREACHED unto you, is Christ.
~~ Jesus, apostles, and the disciples went to the temple court yard, synagouges to TEACH and PREACH because that where people come to worship, learn, and teach about God.... The apostles and disciples meet together for Christ's Passover/Eucharists in the homes of believers.They went daily to the temple. Acts 2:46 And they continuing daily with one accord in the temple and breaking bread from house to house... (going to the temple was as important as going to the house.
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