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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 5, 2010 12:20:03 GMT -5
No different than any other church organizing conventions or gatherings of its members. Scott (Emphasis mine. No different than those false churches?)Any church actually. Scott
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Post by StAnne on Apr 5, 2010 12:39:09 GMT -5
Can the following be called "methods?" Pentecost PentecostActs 2 1 When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together. 2 And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind, and it filled the entire house in which they were. 3 Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, which parted and came to rest on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the holy Spirit... 14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice, and proclaimed to them, "You who are Jews, indeed all of you staying in Jerusalem. Let this be known to you, and listen to my words. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only nine o'clock in the morning. 16 No, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel: 17 'It will come to pass in the last days,' God says, 'that I will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh. Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams. 18 Indeed, upon my servants and my handmaids I will pour out a portion of my spirit in those days, and they shall prophesy. 19 And I will work wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below: blood, fire, and a cloud of smoke. 20 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and splendid day of the Lord, 21 and it shall be that everyone shall be saved who calls on the name of the Lord.' 38 Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call." [/b] "Through the Holy Spirit we are restored to paradise, led back to the Kingdom of heaven, and adopted as children, given confidence to call God "Father" and to share in Christ's grace, called children of light and given a share in eternal glory." - St. Basil, De Spiritu Sancto This was after Jesus' death and resurrection and ascension. Where in Holy Scripture does it instruct us NOT to commemorate Pentecost?
Of course this is another of those times that without proper recognition of who the Holy Spirit really is, the third person of the Godhead...the importance of this event may be lost on some.
More on Pentecost and the Holy Spirit...www.ewtn.com/devotionals/pentecost/pent1.htm
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Post by emy on Apr 5, 2010 13:30:47 GMT -5
I haven't been following this discussion closely, but this last post made me wonder why the RCIA/RCIC group is baptized and accepted into the church at Easter rather than at Pentecost, if that is when the Holy Spirit is given?
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Post by StAnne on Apr 5, 2010 13:49:33 GMT -5
I haven't been following this discussion closely, but this last post made me wonder why the RCIA/RCIC group is baptized and accepted into the church at Easter rather than at Pentecost, if that is when the Holy Spirit is given? Sometimes people are received into the Church at Pentecost. At our parish, if there are any who begin RCIA/RCIC a bit later, they may be received at Pentecost instead of Easter Vigil.
People may be received into the Church at any time depending on individual circumstances (for instance, military deployment) but the traditional times are indeed at Easter Vigil and Pentecost.
About receiving the Holy Spirit--we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism (Acts 2:38 quoted above and 2 Cor 1:21-22), and are sealed with the Holy Spirit at Confirmation...Acts 8:14–17, 9:17, 19:6, which speak of a laying on of hands for the purpose of bestowing the Holy Spirit. Acts 8 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who went down and prayed for them, that they might receive the holy Spirit, 16 for it had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them and they received the holy Spirit. Acts 19 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul laid (his) hands on them, the holy Spirit came upon them2Tim 1 6 For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God 5 that you have through the imposition of my hands.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 5, 2010 14:03:07 GMT -5
So you suspect that these people came from all Judea with no bedding, no water, nothing? With all those children? Maybe Jesus was derelict in his own duties? It's good that people here concede that ten thousand were gathered for three days with Jesus and his disciples - as for the level of preparation, we can't really say. There is one reference where the Pharisees and lawyers came from everywhere to see Jesus - that certainly was arranged. Do you recall the event? What are we trying to say here? That nothing was ever prepared? That people back then happened to share our culture of freedom, liberal attitudes and disrespect respect for authority or hierarchy? And if workers spend time preparing for convention then they are violating some Law of Spontaneity? I don't believe Jesus ever did any preparing EXCEPT to tell his Apostles to go and declare the kingdom of Heaven is at hand in all of Judea. Why would Jesus need to prepare...look at what He did with just a few fishes and few loaves of bread! Good grief...please don't limit the power of God here!
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Post by sharonw on Apr 5, 2010 14:07:51 GMT -5
So what if it takes six weeks to prepare convention? Humans do have material needs, and material methods to meet those needs. And so what if it is styled after a modern day convention of another group? It's the spirit of the thing that matters. The purpose is to feast spiritually and be in a place set apart from the world. Does it matter exactly how Jesus had large gatherings with followers compared to how we do today? For how many days, where, how often? The idea of it is the same, and the results are the same. That anyone takes the time to prepare for others, and that all come to be in that place, that is what matters. Carnal needs differ according to time and place, but spiritual ones remain no matter when and where you live. I don't have an issue with preps or conventions. That's how the truth fellowship does things so no big deal. No different than any other church organizing conventions or gatherings of its members. I don't think that the idea or results are the same as in those gatherings we read about in the bible though. Those gatherings weren't of people that were already church members or Christians, but rather of those that had heard about Jesus and came to hear the gospel message probably for the very first time. Current day conventions (whether truth fellowship or other denominations) are mostly for the express purpose of gathering those of the same denomination together for fellowship and spiritual renewal. Scott I asked an overseer what scripture mentioned "conventions"...his answer was..."There are no conventions mentioned per se...but Paul had gatherings to 'confirm the saints'."
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Post by sharonw on Apr 5, 2010 14:11:43 GMT -5
~~ Can I find more about Eidel on the Internet? Just a guess based on other postings by ram such as the manly tea...... I am guessing that all you need to know about the 'Eidel Voice' can be found here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edelweiss_(song)Scott Beautiful...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp5X4MBIbLs&feature=related
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will
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Post by will on Apr 5, 2010 14:23:48 GMT -5
Do 2x2s honestly believe that the feeding of the thousands by Jesus was the precedent for annual conventions??? So, as the disciples gathered the baskets of leftovers, did they say "see you all next year"
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Post by StAnne on Apr 5, 2010 14:25:24 GMT -5
...but Paul had gatherings to 'confirm the saints'." Gatherings to 'confirm' the saints--to confirm as in them receiving the Holy Spirit through the imposition of hands and it being said to "receive the Holy Spirit"?
Probably wasn't what the worker meant...but I had to ask.
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Post by dudeler on Apr 5, 2010 14:36:15 GMT -5
Do 2x2s honestly believe that the feeding of the thousands by Jesus was the precedent for annual conventions??? So, as the disciples gathered the baskets of leftovers, did they say "see you all next year" You should see Irvine's arrest records for his annual "clearing of the temple"...
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 5, 2010 15:19:36 GMT -5
Cherie, yes, that witness aspect is most likely the reason Jesus asked his preachers to go out in pairs. If you read carefully Paul's letter to Timothy you see another one - the elder teaching the younger. One of the big problems with working out the "whys" of something in the bible, I suspect, is to find some cultural reason to dispense with it. I believe that if our workers went out in ones or threes the facts about the pairs in the NT would be thrown at them mercilessly. Talk about the cultural aspect. My guess is the workers know nothing about the cultural aspect of the Bible. We live 2,000 years later and in a culture and society vastly different from the Bible times. Just living in those places today one feels like a fish out of water. No comparison between Jesus day and society and today's western world.
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 5, 2010 15:26:48 GMT -5
So what if it takes six weeks to prepare convention? Humans do have material needs, and material methods to meet those needs. And so what if it is styled after a modern day convention of another group? It's the spirit of the thing that matters. The purpose is to feast spiritually and be in a place set apart from the world. Does it matter exactly how Jesus had large gatherings with followers compared to how we do today? For how many days, where, how often? The idea of it is the same, and the results are the same. That anyone takes the time to prepare for others, and that all come to be in that place, that is what matters. Carnal needs differ according to time and place, but spiritual ones remain no matter when and where you live. ~~ In the past most of the conventions had many conventions tents to set up a lot of time consuming, storing, fixing the tents so the workers spending 6 weeks at preps. With new convention sheds/buildings it has shorten the length to 3 weeks at preps these days.Nothing wrong with people preparing for conventions, what is wrong is that the workers leave preaching to do it. Didn't the New Testament church appoint deacons to do this sort of things so that the apostles did not have to leave preaching and 'serve tables'. The same thing, the workers should leave it to others so that they do not have to leave preaching. Conventions are for the converted, which is the opposite to Gospel meetings which are to win souls.
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Post by emy on Apr 5, 2010 16:21:47 GMT -5
Gatherings to 'confirm' the saints--to confirm as in them receiving the Holy through the imposition of hands and it being said to "receive the Holy Spirit"?
Probably wasn't what the worker meant...but I had to ask.
I think he may have meant more like it mentions at the end of Acts 14 and Acts 15 - that the apostles went to reassure disciples who were wondering about certain doctrines. There are also similarities to some of the OT feasts. Not in practices, but surely in spirit?
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Post by StAnne on Apr 5, 2010 16:30:56 GMT -5
Gatherings to 'confirm' the saints--to confirm as in them receiving the Holy Spirit through the imposition of hands and it being said to "receive the Holy Spirit"?
Probably wasn't what the worker meant...but I had to ask.
Oops. I see I missed a word--where Emy referenced me. It should have said 'Holy Spirit'.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 5, 2010 16:47:32 GMT -5
Gatherings to 'confirm' the saints--to confirm as in them receiving the Holy through the imposition of hands and it being said to "receive the Holy Spirit"?
Probably wasn't what the worker meant...but I had to ask.
I think he may have meant more like it mentions at the end of Acts 14 and Acts 15 - that the apostles went to reassure disciples who were wondering about certain doctrines. There are also similarities to some of the OT feasts. Not in practices, but surely in spirit? Emy, when/how do 2x2 believe they receive the Holy Spirit?
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Post by ScholarGal on Apr 5, 2010 16:55:00 GMT -5
I asked an overseer what scripture mentioned "conventions"...his answer was..."There are no conventions mentioned per se...but Paul had gatherings to 'confirm the saints'." The only scripture that I've heard a worker cite as the basis for conventions was 2 Chronicles 34:29-32 or 2 Kings 22-23. It didn't make much sense to me. At the time I was studying the various times in history when the temple was built and rebuilt in Jerusalem. When Josiah was reigning as king at Jerusalem, he tried to set things in order by restoring the temple and some of the worship practices of his ancestors. While fixing up the temple, they found a copy of the law. This "convention" in 2 Chronicles 34 was a gathering of elders and people to hear the entire Law read aloud because it had been lost for a few generations. Not quite the same as an annual convention!
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christopher
Senior Member
"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." -Ps. 27:8
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Post by christopher on Apr 5, 2010 17:22:43 GMT -5
All,
There is no convention commandment for what the friends and workers practice today. We all know this. And I don't think anyone is saying there is. God's people have always had a way to gather together in large groups to be feed and renewed spiritually.
The OT gatherings served a spiritual need for the people. The practices of Paul was to serve the spiritual needs of those in the church. Today's annual conventions feed people spiritually.
All through scripture you see people responding to a need to feast spiritually. Whether they gathered at Shiloh, in the temple, at the feet of Jesus in a desert place, or by the prompting of one of the Apostles.
As for today's annual conventions of the friends and workers, several here have mentioned some of the very needful things that happen at that time. I am glad any ever felt moved to make such a wonderful thing happen, and I am thankful for the efforts of those who put in their time to make it happen.
The fact that the workers take time from preaching to make ready for convention, and to attend various conventions, hardly seems outside of the purpose of their calling. It's what they do. They minister to spiritual needs. Ultimately that is what it is all about.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 18:04:29 GMT -5
Absolutely nothing wrong with having conventions whatever the origins. In fact, in the right context they are wonderful gatherings.
It is a pity the group has strayed from the original conventions where "many" outsiders attended/were encouraged to attend and there were speakers from other denominations. Also, in recent times it seems there is a plethora of visiting workers from abroad and at least one worker explained to me that one reason for this was to use up the increasing amount of funds held. There are more appropriate uses for excess finances.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 5, 2010 18:09:14 GMT -5
Do 2x2s honestly believe that the feeding of the thousands by Jesus was the precedent for annual conventions??? So, as the disciples gathered the baskets of leftovers, did they say "see you all next year" Will, I'm not certain whether there are very many 2X2's that use the feeding of the 5000 and the 4000 to be a prelude or law for conventions or not...but as I quoted an overseer above, the workers seem to get their backing of convs. and spec mtg from Paul's large gathering that were to "confirm the saints".
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Post by sharonw on Apr 5, 2010 18:11:51 GMT -5
Absolutely nothing wrong with having conventions whatever the origins. In fact, in the right context they are wonderful gatherings. It is a pity the group has strayed from the original conventions where "many" outsiders attended/were encouraged to attend and there were speakers from other denominations. Also, in recent times it seems there is a plethora of visiting workers from abroad and at least one worker explained to me that one reason for this was to use up the increasing amount of funds held. There are more appropriate uses for excess finances. I have to say from what I've seen, the use of excess finances are a mighty thin excuse...as that is where the workers get worshipped the most....most of them don't even bother to get around on the grounds to visit with the friends anymore...they don't even share "breaks" with the friends...they all gather secluded away from the friends. If any of the friends want to visit with a visiting worker or any worker for that matter, they have to set up an appt. to meet them somewhere out of the general traffic area! That is no joke!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 18:13:41 GMT -5
Well Scott, since you are so smart, I will cite nothing more than "The Feast of the Transhumance" by Helva Jodhl, grand daughter of General Jodhl, who was Adolf Hitler's Chief of Staff (or similar office bearer). Frau Jodhl is currently Director of Theological Sciences at the Institute of Alpine Studies in Prague. Frau Jodhl's "Transhumance" is a fictional account in preparation of many Alpine missionaries over the last seven centuries, which exposes the truth behind the many myths and legends and replaces them with enhanced yarnage. Yes those Missionaries were quite in abundance at one time shepherding their flocks. It is estimated that by the mid-19th century about 3 million sheep took part in transhumance. Today, the number of shepherds who are still practicing transhumance in these regions is minor. From the total of approximately remaining 230 full time shepherds there are only 100 to 120 shepherds practicing transhumance involving 70.000 to 90.000 sheep.This points to the ever decreasing numbers in the flocks which these Missionaries (known as shepherds of course) have under their direction now. One of the reasons cited for the decline has been the fact that where they used to use large Alpine horns to call their sheep, they now rely on a more simple voice type of calling. Because of the lack of instruments, many of the sheep have lost interest, and simply do not respond to the 'sound of yodel' as they did when the large horns called them...... Scott Scott, It appears you have read Frau Jodhl's book on the Feast of the Transhumance? Helva Jodhl actually discovered that the resonating echos from her oral summoning of the sheep in the Alpine valleys actually resulted in a massive increase in those straying.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 5, 2010 18:14:30 GMT -5
...but Paul had gatherings to 'confirm the saints'." Gatherings to 'confirm' the saints--to confirm as in them receiving the Holy Spirit through the imposition of hands and it being said to "receive the Holy Spirit"?
Probably wasn't what the worker meant...but I had to ask.
I thhink the to confirm the saints means to give them more strength behind their commitment of professing in the fellowship as Paul's seemed to be to keep his converts encouraged.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 18:17:57 GMT -5
Cultural studies of the bible can become a refuge for scoundrels. By way of example: People try to explain away home churches, for instance, by pointing to systematic persecution. Only, there was no systematic persecution.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 5, 2010 18:21:36 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with people preparing for conventions, what is wrong is that the workers leave preaching to do it. Didn't the New Testament church appoint deacons to do this sort of things so that the apostles did not have to leave preaching and 'serve tables'. The same thing, the workers should leave it to others so that they do not have to leave preaching. Conventions are for the converted, which is the opposite to Gospel meetings which are to win souls. ~~ hmmmmm... really... My brothers and I professed at conventions. I have seen and known many friends, their children and sometimes non-2x2s have come to Christ at conventions... So how can you say conventions are NOT to win the souls for Christ.
Conventions serve multi-purposes... Gathering for believers, new workers are sending forth into the harvest field, and to win souls for Christ Wed. night, Thursday night, Friday night and Saturday nights and the last meetings are gospel meetings. The workers tested the gospel meetings to win souls for Christ on Saturday night and Sunday evening. How can you say conventions are not to win souls for Christ?
Many workers and friends faith in God and Christ are strengthen at conventions... Many souls have come to Christ at conventions. Win-win situation. Convention is another form of gospel meetings.It is certainly meant to convey spiritual bread to all there! And that in itself enables individuals perhaps know for a more certainty where their next step lies....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 18:25:02 GMT -5
Absolutely nothing wrong with having conventions whatever the origins. In fact, in the right context they are wonderful gatherings. It is a pity the group has strayed from the original conventions where "many" outsiders attended/were encouraged to attend and there were speakers from other denominations. Also, in recent times it seems there is a plethora of visiting workers from abroad and at least one worker explained to me that one reason for this was to use up the increasing amount of funds held. There are more appropriate uses for excess finances. ~~ NOT bad of an idea using the funds to invite foreign workers to travel to different countries and help out at conventions, special meetings at all.... It has eternal blessings! I love to hear what God has done in other countries.
I agree the overseers should use the excess funds to help the needy, give some to charities, earthquakes, hurricans disasters Red Cross, etc.. Or using some of that funds to help out the ex-workers to get them back on their feet.Yes Nathan, it is all about balance. There are many other needs which could be met. Helping ex-workers return to normal life, or friends in needy circumstances as well as all the other suggestions you mention, would in my view be more appropriate. A token amount of invited workers from foreign fields would be suffice. Some friends could preach or give extended testimonies from the platform.
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 5, 2010 19:29:15 GMT -5
Cultural studies of the bible can become a refuge for scoundrels. By way of example: People try to explain away home churches, for instance, by pointing to systematic persecution. Only, there was no systematic persecution.But there is in the world today. I know those in China that are meeting in homes and in secret in order to avoid persecution. This is true in other countries as well. Of course in the early church there were no church buildings. Jesus and the disciples met in a rented upper chamber for the feast it appears, and of course when a church is starting up, they do not have buildings set aside for worship until they become established. Of course there are tent churches and barn churches that have came into being..... Still a scoundrel. Scott
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 19:54:02 GMT -5
StAnne, this is exactly my point. By way of example, where in the bible does it say was can't celebrate Flatbread Day? If I establish Flatbread Day then won't YOU add it to your liturgical calendar?
AND, as an aside - I just looked up Pentecost again. Wikipedia has it in beside the Temple Court! I thought it was in someone's house! Some are trying to say that the spirit continued in the Temple after the crucifixion.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 5, 2010 20:43:28 GMT -5
Bert - Just like you started your Flat Bread Day, the children of Israel also started their own annual holy day in remembrance of their deliverance. It was the Feast of Purim, and Bib Bible doesnt record that God objected to it. ("I'm not sure what your FB Day is in honor of--perhaps the TMB?) The "Feast of Purim" was NOT one of the seven feasts that God instituted at Mt. Sinai after Israel came out of Egypt. Alfred Edersheim, D.D., Ph.D., in his book The Temple (Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co.) states: “Besides the festivals mentioned in the law of Moses, other festive seasons were also observed at the time of our Lord, to perpetuate the memory either of great national deliverances or great national calamities (p. 330).” The Jews initiated the ‘Feast of Purim’ after God miraculously delivered them from an extermination plot (Esther 9:17-24). Israel celebrated the ‘Feast of Purim’ on the 14th and 15th of the month Adar (March). According to the Dictionary of the Bible, the ‘Feast of Purim’ was never a national feast day that called for attendance at Jerusalem. However, Dr. Edersheim in his book Temple states it was a very popular festival (p. 331). On the 13th of Adar the Jews got their vengeance on their enemies instead of Haman destroying them (Est. 9:1-15). Mordecai made a proclamation, which began the feast of Purim. “And Mordecai wrote these things, and sent letters unto all the Jews that were in all the provinces of the king Ahasuerus, both nigh and far, To stablish this among them, that they should keep the fourteenth day of the month Adar, and the fifteenth day of the same, yearly, As the days wherein the Jews rested from their enemies, and the month which was turned unto them from sorrow to joy, and from mourning into a good day: that they should make them days of feasting and joy, and of sending portions one to another, and gifts to the poor (Esther 9:20-22)." A friend asked me, “ Don’t you observe Easter, it’s in the bible, isn’t it?”I replied, " I respect Easter. It reminds me there is still some recognition of God in the world. But there was no Easter in the apostolic church. Easter is a contrived "holy" event, added to scripture by man. I took up a piece of flat bread (called Pita bread here) to make an analogy, “ This is how these holy days start. Let’s invent our own, say... Flat Bread Day!!” “ Flat Bread Day?!” my friend retorted. I went on, “ Most bread is high bread, but pita bread lies low. Just like those who bowed before Jesus! We could establish flatbread holidays, flatbread ceremonies and the like. And if anyone challenges us that there is no such ceremony in the bible we will remind them of our proof texts – those who bowed low before Christ.” And add verse and chapter for effect.This is how holy days start.The historian Scholasticus wrote, " The apostles had no thought of appointing festival days, but of promoting a life of blamelessness and piety." Scholasticus attributes the observance of Easter, for instance, to the perpetuation of local custom, " just as many other customs have been established."Paul wrote to the “foolish Galatians”, “…how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.” And to the Colossians he wrote, " So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”
So people were asking similar questions back then! And this is how alternate religion stakes its claim to Christ. This is where Saints Days; Septuagesima; Rogation Sunday; Quinquagesima; Ascension; Ash Wednesday; Pentecost; Palm Sunday; Trinity Sunday; Good Friday; Corpus Christi, Lent and Passiontide; Assumption of Mary, Christmas and Easter come from.
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