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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 4, 2010 20:47:41 GMT -5
Being a Protestant I now know about Good Friday, Palm Sunday and Pentecost. I do not know about Lent.
As a 2x2 I only heard of Easter - Good Friday as a time for Hot Cross buns and Easter Sunday for easter eggs and something false churches celebrated. Pentecost was just a word in the Bible but I did not know the real significance of it. Now I see it as the day the Holy Spirit was poured out and we too can experience this same outpouring of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 4, 2010 21:00:03 GMT -5
Being a Protestant I now know about Good Friday, Palm Sunday and Pentecost. I do not know about Lent. As a 2x2 I only heard of Easter - Good Friday as a time for Hot Cross buns and Easter Sunday for easter eggs and something false churches celebrated. Pentecost was just a word in the Bible but I did not know the real significance of it. Now I see it as the day the Holy Spirit was poured out and we too can experience this same outpouring of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Thank you, believer.
So I wasn't, and am not, the only 2x2 child who didn't have adequate knowledge of something as important as Pentecost. Nor the only one to experience Good Friday, Palm Sunday and Pentecost in the Prot world.
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Post by kiwi on Apr 4, 2010 22:03:44 GMT -5
Method. method, method. What a mess! Thank God for "the Gospel Message!" Ya for good old method ;D stops you wondering all over the place ;D
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Post by kiwi on Apr 4, 2010 22:06:08 GMT -5
Jesus sent his preachers out to preach the Gospel message. William Irvine sent his disciples out to preach the Gospel method. Man you are a funny boy ;D
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 2:24:00 GMT -5
Hi Kees, how ya doin' old buddy? Great to see ya postin'.
Boy, you are a funny man!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 3:16:43 GMT -5
Can the following be called "methods?"
Lent, Pentecost, Maundy Thursday Fish Friday Holy Thursday, Covenant Thursday, Commandment Thursday Great & Holy Thursday, Palm Sunday, Thursday of Mysteries, Good Friday The Last Supper
Just what is a "method?" I think it is anything added to Christ's simplicity. Can anyone come up with a better definition?
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 5, 2010 4:23:16 GMT -5
Conventions are not simple. The workers take 6 weeks out of preaching to prepare the grounds for them. Really worldly if you ask me. Now who said the 2x2s do not know anything about holy days? Bert knows more than all the 2x2s put together. He seems to know alot about TV programmes as well. He even knows the name of one of the actors for 2 and a half men which I have never watched.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 5:27:57 GMT -5
Conventions are not simple. The workers take 6 weeks out of preaching to prepare the grounds for them. Really worldly if you ask me. Now who said the 2x2s do not know anything about holy days? Bert knows more that all the 2x2s put together. He seems to know alot about TV programmes as well. He even knows the name of one of the actors for 2 and a half men which I have never watched. Bert tells us he is of Greek descent (partly/wholly?). The Greeks seek knowledge, that is why Bert is so well versed on Holy days and TV programmes etc. He even suggested compiling a Greek version of the bible.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 5:33:14 GMT -5
Quote - Conventions are not simple. The workers take 6 weeks out of preaching to prepare the grounds for them. Really worldly if you ask me.
Recall Jesus with the ten thousand for three days? Seems there wasn't that much preparation because He had to break the loaves and fishes, didn't He? But then, getting that many people together from all over Israel must have involved SOME preparation. Nothing wrong in that.
Quote - Now who said the 2x2s do not know anything about holy days? Bert knows more that all the 2x2s put together.
Really? Not sure about that. But I can tell you one thing - not many workers would know all those who went out two and two. It wouldn't interest them, but if they wanted they could look it up.
Quote - He seems to know alot about TV programmes as well. He even knows the name of one of the actors for 2 and a half men which I have never watched.
Who? You mean ol' Charlie? We have an extended family (most Greek) and that is all I hear from some of them. I also read a lot, and the social ramifications of these sort of shows comes up often. No, I have never watched Two and a Half Men.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 5:42:10 GMT -5
No, I have never watched Two and a Half Men.
No, but if the show was called "two and two men" you'd be glued to the screen!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 5:53:33 GMT -5
No, I have never watched Two and a Half Men. No, but if the show was called "two and two men" you'd be glued to the screen! Good one RAM! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 6:17:34 GMT -5
No, I have never watched Two and a Half Men. No, but if the show was called "two and two men" you'd be glued to the screen! Good one RAM! ;D I just couldn't resist it Bert. I knew you would understand. By the way, there's now three scriptural reasons to support the wisdom and common sense of a two and two ministry in early church times. 1) The portion in Ecclesiates about "two are better than one" etc. This general observation in life makes good sense in sending out messengers in pairs or more. However, non-mandatory, but good common sense nonetheless. 2) It seems to have been a common Jewish practice when sending messengers or receiving information, to do so with two or more. There are examples in the OT, even spies! It appears that most information was exchanged "orally" so two or more messengers confirmed the message. In the NT we see John the Baptist, Jesus and Cornelius sending out two (or more) messengers to enquire into matters. Again not mandatory, but part of the Jewish custom. In those days there was hardly any other way to establish/confirm matters. One person may get the message wrong in whole or in part, but with two there was far less chance. 3) The Law, which prescribed for matters of the law being established by the testimony of two or more witnesses. Remember, all this relates to witnesses (not specifically preachers) and in matters of testimony it was not necessary to be heard at the same time. What these things show is that in those days for a pioneering ministry going to new or strange parts etc, the "best practice" was to go two and two wherever possible. This holds true for today. However, where the word is already established and witnesses exist, the two and two format loses much of its necessity.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 5, 2010 6:55:18 GMT -5
Bert wrote:
The masses thronged Jesus - he couldnt get away from them. He got on a ship once to escape and get some sleep, and the people were waiting on the other side of the sea...even tho he was exhausted, he has compassion on them and took time to heal them.
He didn't try to need to TRY to "get that many people together from all over Israel must have involved SOME preparation."
They came after him...the feeding of the loaves and fishes appeared to be an impromptu meeting...if it wasnt, the people would have thot ahead and brot their own food...
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Post by sharonw on Apr 5, 2010 7:10:00 GMT -5
Bert wrote: The masses thronged Jesus - he couldnt get away from them. He got on a ship once to escape and get some sleep, and the people were waiting on the other side of the sea...even tho he was exhausted, he has compassion on them and took time to heal them. He didn't try to need to TRY to "get that many people together from all over Israel must have involved SOME preparation."They came after him...the feeding of the loaves and fishes appeared to be an impromptu meeting...if it wasnt, the people would have thot ahead and brot their own food... And it was only ONE meal...not 3 meals for 4 days!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 7:56:04 GMT -5
So you suspect that these people came from all Judea with no bedding, no water, nothing? With all those children? Maybe Jesus was derelict in his own duties?
It's good that people here concede that ten thousand were gathered for three days with Jesus and his disciples - as for the level of preparation, we can't really say.
There is one reference where the Pharisees and lawyers came from everywhere to see Jesus - that certainly was arranged. Do you recall the event?
What are we trying to say here? That nothing was ever prepared? That people back then happened to share our culture of freedom, liberal attitudes and disrespect respect for authority or hierarchy? And if workers spend time preparing for convention then they are violating some Law of Spontaneity?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 8:06:26 GMT -5
Cherie, yes, that witness aspect is most likely the reason Jesus asked his preachers to go out in pairs. If you read carefully Paul's letter to Timothy you see another one - the elder teaching the younger. One of the big problems with working out the "whys" of something in the bible, I suspect, is to find some cultural reason to dispense with it. I believe that if our workers went out in ones or threes the facts about the pairs in the NT would be thrown at them mercilessly.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 5, 2010 8:24:34 GMT -5
Bert, could you post a list of all the LARGE gatherings of people around Jesus in the NT? With details as to Where, When and Who was present. 1) Where was the location? Samaria, Judea perea, Galilee, Jerusalem, Capernaum, etc? 2) When in His ministry it took place (what year of it)? 3) Who was present in general and any notable attendees (disciples are mentioned) etc. ?? Thanx, CK So you suspect that these people came from all Judea with no bedding, no water, nothing? With all those children? Maybe Jesus was derelict in his own duties? It's good that people here concede that ten thousand were gathered for three days with Jesus and his disciples - as for the level of preparation, we can't really say. There is one reference where the Pharisees and lawyers came from everywhere to see Jesus - that certainly was arranged. Do you recall the event? What are we trying to say here? That nothing was ever prepared? That people back then happened to share our culture of freedom, liberal attitudes and disrespect respect for authority or hierarchy? And if workers spend time preparing for convention then they are violating some Law of Spontaneity?
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Post by will on Apr 5, 2010 8:35:20 GMT -5
the contrived holy-days in the 2x2s around here are: convention, spring and winter special meetings (which happen to coincide with Easter and Christmas).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 8:52:43 GMT -5
And if workers spend time preparing for convention then they are violating some Law of Spontaneity?
Bert, haven't you heard of "spontaneous convention?"
Also, the F&W's conventions were styled on the example of the Keswick conventions in the Lake District in England, not the Desert Conventions by the Sea of Gallilee in Israel.
The Desert conventions were spontaneous in nature, whereas the Keswick conventions were properly planned affairs.
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christopher
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Post by christopher on Apr 5, 2010 9:26:03 GMT -5
So what if it takes six weeks to prepare convention? Humans do have material needs, and material methods to meet those needs. And so what if it is styled after a modern day convention of another group? It's the spirit of the thing that matters. The purpose is to feast spiritually and be in a place set apart from the world.
Does it matter exactly how Jesus had large gatherings with followers compared to how we do today? For how many days, where, how often? The idea of it is the same, and the results are the same. That anyone takes the time to prepare for others, and that all come to be in that place, that is what matters. Carnal needs differ according to time and place, but spiritual ones remain no matter when and where you live.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 9:37:27 GMT -5
And if workers spend time preparing for convention then they are violating some Law of Spontaneity? Bert, haven't you heard of "spontaneous convention?" Also, the F&W's conventions were styled on the example of the Keswick conventions in the Lake District in England, not the Desert Conventions by the Sea of Gallilee in Israel. The Desert conventions were spontaneous in nature, whereas the Keswick conventions were properly planned affairs. ~~ I wouldn't be surpised the Keswick conventions had copied some of the form from the Vaudois and those like them who had done for centuries where they sent out their new preachers to be with and learned from experienced preachers for 2 to 3 yrs.
Quite a few of the ex-vaudois left the group and kept or incorporate some of their old denomination/group teachings with their new founding groups.
Even using some of the same terminologies... the Friends, the workers, conventions, special meetings, etc... Many of the Protestants denomination (including Faith Mission) have adopted some of the Vaudois, Cathars, Albigenses, etc teachings and beliefs, terminologies in their churches. Nathan, there's no doubt the Keswick conventions were influenced by the Alpine conventions which were started by Albrecht Eidel on the Lake Geneva shoreline in the middle of the 19th century. I don't think that is in dispute? Most people accept this fact. Eidel was a lay preacher of modest means, who lived from sheiling to sheiling in the valleys of southern Switzerland. By all accounts he was a very powerful orator. The Swiss Christian magazine of the times, "Swiss Salvation," reported several times about Eidel's booming voice which could not only summon the people's from all corners of the Swiss nation, but also had the power to generate avalanches in winter. The Alpine conventions which were held in various parts of the country, were very successful, largely on account of Eidel's voice. "You have Luther, but we have the Eidel Voice," Swiss Salvation printed in 1859, in a jibe at the developing Germanic states. It is often mistaken that Eidel travelled or preached alone, but his popularity was such that his companion (he had various over the years) remained very much in his shadow. Even his latter companion, Seamus Fitziesayin, was forced to return home to Ireland in order to be heard with the gospel. Anyway, the Keswick conventions most certainly were influenced by the Swiss conventions because the main speaker at the first Keswick convention was none other than the ageing Albrecht Eidel. He spoke in German, which was translated into English. Local newspapers proclaimed, "The Eidel Voice has shaken England!"
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 5, 2010 9:42:00 GMT -5
So what if it takes six weeks to prepare convention? Humans do have material needs, and material methods to meet those needs. And so what if it is styled after a modern day convention of another group? It's the spirit of the thing that matters. The purpose is to feast spiritually and be in a place set apart from the world. Does it matter exactly how Jesus had large gatherings with followers compared to how we do today? For how many days, where, how often? The idea of it is the same, and the results are the same. That anyone takes the time to prepare for others, and that all come to be in that place, that is what matters. Carnal needs differ according to time and place, but spiritual ones remain no matter when and where you live. I don't have an issue with preps or conventions. That's how the truth fellowship does things so no big deal. No different than any other church organizing conventions or gatherings of its members. I don't think that the idea or results are the same as in those gatherings we read about in the bible though. Those gatherings weren't of people that were already church members or Christians, but rather of those that had heard about Jesus and came to hear the gospel message probably for the very first time. Current day conventions (whether truth fellowship or other denominations) are mostly for the express purpose of gathering those of the same denomination together for fellowship and spiritual renewal. Scott
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christopher
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Post by christopher on Apr 5, 2010 9:49:52 GMT -5
Agreed Scott. Today conventions are more for the the congregation of believers and for their spiritual renewal. It is for that renewal that many of us go. I was referring to the greater spiritual need of sitting at the feet of Jesus and hearing His words. To get closer to the Lord.
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Post by emy on Apr 5, 2010 10:05:36 GMT -5
~~ In the past most of the conventions had many conventions tents to set up a lot of time consuming, storing, fixing the tents so the workers spending 6 weeks at preps. With new convention sheds/buildings it has shorten the length to 3 weeks at preps these days. Or less.
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 5, 2010 10:12:54 GMT -5
~~ Can I find more about Eidel on the Internet? Just a guess based on other postings by ram such as the manly tea...... I am guessing that all you need to know about the 'Eidel Voice' can be found here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edelweiss_(song)Scott
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 10:42:09 GMT -5
~~ Can I find more about Eidel on the Internet? Just a guess based on other postings by ram such as the manly tea...... I am guessing that all you need to know about the 'Eidel Voice' can be found here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edelweiss_(song)Scott Well Scott, since you are so smart, I will cite nothing more than "The Feast of the Transhumance" by Helva Jodhl, grand daughter of General Jodhl, who was Adolf Hitler's Chief of Staff (or similar office bearer). Frau Jodhl is currently Director of Theological Sciences at the Institute of Alpine Studies in Prague. Frau Jodhl's "Transhumance" is a fictional account in preparation of many Alpine missionaries over the last seven centuries, which exposes the truth behind the many myths and legends and replaces them with enhanced yarnage.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 5, 2010 11:16:14 GMT -5
No different than any other church organizing conventions or gatherings of its members. Scott (Emphasis mine. No different than those false churches?)
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 5, 2010 12:17:35 GMT -5
~~ Can I find more about Eidel on the Internet? Just a guess based on other postings by ram such as the manly tea...... I am guessing that all you need to know about the 'Eidel Voice' can be found here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edelweiss_(song)Scott Well Scott, since you are so smart, I will cite nothing more than "The Feast of the Transhumance" by Helva Jodhl, grand daughter of General Jodhl, who was Adolf Hitler's Chief of Staff (or similar office bearer). Frau Jodhl is currently Director of Theological Sciences at the Institute of Alpine Studies in Prague. Frau Jodhl's "Transhumance" is a fictional account in preparation of many Alpine missionaries over the last seven centuries, which exposes the truth behind the many myths and legends and replaces them with enhanced yarnage. Yes those Missionaries were quite in abundance at one time shepherding their flocks. It is estimated that by the mid-19th century about 3 million sheep took part in transhumance. Today, the number of shepherds who are still practicing transhumance in these regions is minor. From the total of approximately remaining 230 full time shepherds there are only 100 to 120 shepherds practicing transhumance involving 70.000 to 90.000 sheep.This points to the ever decreasing numbers in the flocks which these Missionaries (known as shepherds of course) have under their direction now. One of the reasons cited for the decline has been the fact that where they used to use large Alpine horns to call their sheep, they now rely on a more simple voice type of calling. Because of the lack of instruments, many of the sheep have lost interest, and simply do not respond to the 'sound of yodel' as they did when the large horns called them...... Scott
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