Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2010 0:40:03 GMT -5
A friend asked me, “Don’t you observe Easter, it’s in the bible, isn’t it?” I replied, "I respect Easter. It reminds me there is still some recognition of God in the world. But there was no Easter in the apostolic church. Easter is a contrived "holy" event, added to scripture by man. I took up a piece of flat bread (called Pita bread here) to make an analogy, “This is how these holy days start. Let’s invent our own, say... Flat Bread Day!!” “Flat Bread Day?!” my friend retorted. I went on, “Most bread is high bread, but pita bread lies low. Just like those who bowed before Jesus! We could establish flatbread holidays, flatbread ceremonies and the like. And if anyone challenges us that there is no such ceremony in the bible we will remind them of our proof texts – those who bowed low before Christ.” And add verse and chapter for effect.
This is how holy days start.
The historian Scholasticus wrote, "The apostles had no thought of appointing festival days, but of promoting a life of blamelessness and piety." Scholasticus attributes the observance of Easter, for instance, to the perpetuation of local custom, "just as many other customs have been established."
Paul wrote to the “foolish Galatians”, “…how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.” And to the Colossians he wrote, "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”
So people were asking similar questions back then!
And this is how alternate religion stakes its claim to Christ. This is where Saints Days; Septuagesima; Rogation Sunday; Quinquagesima; Ascension; Ash Wednesday; Pentecost; Palm Sunday; Trinity Sunday; Good Friday; Corpus Christi, Lent and Passiontide; Assumption of Mary, Christmas and Easter come from.
|
|
|
Post by Happy Feet on Apr 4, 2010 3:40:08 GMT -5
Although we remember the death of Jesus every Sunday through the bread and wine, Christians celebrate the death and resurrection once a year. Easter has a special significant to Christians. Easter is mentioned in the Bible..... Acts 12:4,, intending after Easter to bring him.......
Why do you observe Sunday if we are not meant to observe days? Why do you have convention and special meetings once a year? Christians have Easter once a year. Some people do not celebrate birthdays - I am sure you do Bert, but maybe you shouldn't observe the day you were born.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2010 3:50:41 GMT -5
The Apostolic church met every Sunday, so we take their example. We understand there was some sort of general convening along the lines of the Old Testament, and we take that example. ... and that is it.
Birthdays, charities etc lie outside of the church, and that is a private matter.
|
|
|
Post by Happy Feet on Apr 4, 2010 4:17:47 GMT -5
The Apostolic church met every Sunday, so we take their example. We understand there was some sort of general convening along the lines of the Old Testament, and we take that example. ... and that is it. Birthdays, charities etc lie outside of the church, and that is a private matter. TV, dress and all those worldly things lie outside of the church too Bert so why do the workers focus on them? Partying, drinking and drugs also lie outside the church. When we become a Christian we don't just give the spiritual side of ourselves to God, we give our whole self, body, soul and spirit.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2010 4:28:49 GMT -5
No, you cannot live a life of riot and worldly pleasure, and say that is not the role of a church! How we are asked to live is amazingly well prescribed by scripture.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2010 4:33:36 GMT -5
Bert, I take it rolling Easter eggs are okay? After all, the example was the rolling away the stone from Jesus's tomb!
I remember in earlier years I was part of a group of professing people who like Jack and Jill went up the hill, but thankfully it was the painted Easter eggs which were sent tumbling down and not us.
Be really glad if you can confirm that little remembrance ceremony was okay?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2010 4:38:15 GMT -5
Never heard of THAT! I don't know of anyone in my church who recognizes Easter eggs as having any religious significance whatsoever.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2010 4:44:39 GMT -5
There were workers there as well Bert! Okay, it was a fun day. The point I'm making is that the rolling of Easter eggs is supposed to represent the rolling away of the stone from Jesus's tomb. I'm not saying that there was a conscious connection between the two. A bit like professing folks celebrating Xmas.
By the way, there was no oozo served. It was a non-alcoholic event.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Apr 4, 2010 6:27:27 GMT -5
Well now Bert, I'm sure this little gem is based on some scripture but blowed if I can find it.
Ahh....but wait a moment, there is scripture which points to quite the opposite and I'm sure that is what you meant.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2010 7:16:42 GMT -5
There are no scriptural imperatives for the following:
Sunday am gatherings. (There is no biblical command to meet on a Sunday, or even once/week) Wednesday pm gatherings. Annual conventions. Annual Special meetings.
They all developed just like Bert's Flatbread holy Day. Some little behaviour from the 1st century church was seized upon and made into an important (essential to some) practice.
Some good questions are:
Was the 1st century church inerrant and infallible?
Should all 1st century church patterns and snippets of group behaviours become church laws in the 21th century?
If some of those patterns are to become standard practice today, which ones and on what basis? How do we pick and choose?
|
|
|
Post by freespirit on Apr 4, 2010 7:22:36 GMT -5
Happy Flat Bread Day!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2010 7:42:13 GMT -5
Clearday's quote - There are no scriptural imperatives for the following: The EXAMPLE of Jesus and his church ought to be our imperative - lest we allow others to determine worship for us.Clearday's quote - Sunday am gatherings. (There is no biblical command to meet on a Sunday, or even once/week) from our website. ... the "first day of the week" was symbolic to Christians because it was the day that Jesus rose from the grave... Beginning with this Sunday, Jesus guided His disciples to gather every Sunday. Jesus appeared to the disciples on the following Sunday. It was on another Sunday (seven weeks after the resurrection) that the Holy Spirit appeared to the church on the day of Pentecost.Clearday's quote - Wednesday pm gatherings. Annual Special meetings. Gatherings in Jesus' name on other days are acceptable to him and are mentioned. Worship is a daily thing.Clearday's quote - Annual conventions. from our web site - In the New Testament at least ten thousand people came from all Israel to spend three days with Jesus in the "feeding of the five thousand" (men only were counted.) And in the resurrection Jesus appeared to an assembly of five hundred people.
Clearday's quote - They all developed just like Bert's Flatbread holy Day. Some little behaviour from the 1st century church was seized upon and made into an important (essential to some) practice. And how many churches developed their doctrines from theologians and philosophers long after the First Century?Clearday's quote - Was the 1st century church inerrant and infallible? This can't be defined. But how the church conducted itself is the model we should aim for. Clearday's quote - Should all 1st century church patterns and snippets of group behaviours become church laws in the 21th century? Not sure what "snippets of group behaviors" you refer to. Some behaviors became the foundation of modern churches, and were strongly renounced (idols, money, political power, legalisms, symbols etc.Clearday's quote - If some of those patterns are to become standard practice today, which ones and on what basis? How do we pick and choose? Conform to the moral intent of what Jesus did and said (ie we don't need to ride donkeys!) Observe the acceptable practices of the foundation church, taking consideration of cultural verses doctrinal issues.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2010 7:45:14 GMT -5
Method. method, method. What a mess! Thank God for "the Gospel Message!"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2010 7:54:36 GMT -5
Method. method, method. What a mess! Thank God for "the Gospel Message!" There are two methods - Jesus' method and man's method. You take your pick, failure to chose is not an option.
|
|
|
Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 4, 2010 9:01:25 GMT -5
A friend asked me, “ Don’t you observe Easter, it’s in the bible, isn’t it?”I replied, " I respect Easter. It reminds me there is still some recognition of God in the world. But there was no Easter in the apostolic church.You lost me early on, Bert. Who cares whether or not the word Easter was used in scripture? I recognize that the f&w doctrine is to mimic the early church in any way possible, but that strange goal is not taken as a tenet of the majority of Christians, who find nothing wrong with expressing their gratitude to Jesus in contemporary ways. I think you are projecting your views onto others.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2010 9:09:06 GMT -5
Method. method, method. What a mess! Thank God for "the Gospel Message!" There are two methods - Jesus' method and man's method. You take your pick, failure to chose is not an option. I notice the part of my post about the Gospel Message was ignored Bert. This is part of the culture I'm afraid. Yes, certain methods should be recognised and appropriate importance given to them, BUT, the over-riding importance must be given to the Gospel message. Methode should NEVER usurp the primary importance of the message. At church today (Easter) we heard the words of Paul to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 2:2). "For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ and him crucified." There was nothing pointing to method, but all was pointing to the Gospel message! Mans' imposed methods lead into a maze, most certainly. They render the actual Gospel message unimportant or at best, ancilliary!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2010 9:27:39 GMT -5
Nathan, there you go again. Founding on the rocks or sand is about founding on the right message NOT method! The foundation is Jesus, i.e, corner stone of the church etc. We should found ourselves on the message of Jesus.
The emblems of Irvine clearly came from protestant movements which preceded him, otherwise the emblems would have been part of a meal in a house. Also, the restricting of certain ones from taking part was either their own idea or that of one of the Christian movements. It did not come from the Bible.
|
|
|
Post by selah on Apr 4, 2010 9:47:35 GMT -5
Great post Clearday! Blessings, Linda There are no scriptural imperatives for the following: Sunday am gatherings. (There is no biblical command to meet on a Sunday, or even once/week) Wednesday pm gatherings. Annual conventions. Annual Special meetings. They all developed just like Bert's Flatbread holy Day. Some little behaviour from the 1st century church was seized upon and made into an important (essential to some) practice. Some good questions are: Was the 1st century church inerrant and infallible? Should all 1st century church patterns and snippets of group behaviours become church laws in the 21th century? If some of those patterns are to become standard practice today, which ones and on what basis? How do we pick and choose?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2010 10:02:13 GMT -5
The COMMANDS of Jesus ought to be our imperatives. The fact that he wore only sandals means that it is an imperative you should always follow Bert.
Jesus rose from the grave on the first day of the week, Jesus appeared to his disciples on the following Sunday. From this you conclude that believers ought to create some sort of gathering on Sunday and every Sunday after that. Of course, the fact that Jesus was with some or all of his disciples on every day of the week when he was alive, then every day after his resurrection then by your logic every day should be a gathering day for his disciples. Does your man made logic trump my man made logic?
Lots of them....just like ours!
That's scary, we are supposed to copy something even though we don't know if it is right or not.
I'm not referring to any particular snippets, but for example, the justification for conventions is based on snippets, not clearly established biblical teaching or example.
"Conform to moral intent".......hey Bert, I can embrace that one fully!
"Observe acceptable practices" I'm good with that one too.....but not as a condition of salvation.
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Apr 4, 2010 10:06:13 GMT -5
Never heard of THAT! I don't know of anyone in my church who recognizes Easter eggs as having any religious significance whatsoever. Eggs are the beginning of life for all mammals....technically also for most forms of life...spores, omeba have one celled embryo(egg) or beginnings..even the process of "seed have been thought to be like the process of the egg.....
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Apr 4, 2010 10:08:28 GMT -5
I notice the part of my post about the Gospel Message was ignored Bert. This is part of the culture I'm afraid. Yes, certain methods should be recognised and appropriate importance given to them, BUT, the over-riding importance must be given to the Gospel message. Methode should NEVER usurp the primary importance of the message. At church today (Easter) we heard the words of Paul to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 2:2). "For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ and him crucified." There was nothing pointing to method, but all was pointing to the Gospel message! Mans' imposed methods lead into a maze, most certainly. They render the actual Gospel message unimportant or at best, ancilliary! ~~ Jesus warned on the methods.... One built his house on the Rock foundation and the other built his house on the sand foundation. One followed the method and the other ignored it. Jesus said about the results,"And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell and great was the fall of it. And everyone that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them NOT, shall be likened unto a FOOLISH man, who built his house upon the sand.... And will I profess unto them I NEVER knew you: depart from me ye that WORK iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-28)
Ram... William Irvine and the early workers didn't get the emblems/Bread and wine worship gathering on Sunday morning from the Faith Mission group did they? Most of the early workers who came out of different churches denomination didn't pratice the Eucharists in the homes either. So William Irvine's sister makes a lot of sense wouldn't you say where they got the idea from.Nathan...I don't think a house built on the rock is a method...it is "what" it is built upon.....there is no method to it....other then "built"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2010 10:27:54 GMT -5
This is an interesting depiction of the typical 1st century gathering, and is probably fairly accurate based on the information provided in the NT writings: www.5solas.org/media.php?id=81
|
|
|
Post by StAnne on Apr 4, 2010 11:27:38 GMT -5
Worship is a daily thing. Such as Daily Mass, for instance?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2010 13:00:27 GMT -5
Jesus sent his preachers out to preach the Gospel message.
William Irvine sent his disciples out to preach the Gospel method.
|
|
|
Post by Happy Feet on Apr 4, 2010 14:36:01 GMT -5
The Rock Is Jesus, not a method.
|
|
|
Post by StAnne on Apr 4, 2010 14:39:46 GMT -5
And this is how alternate religion stakes its claim to Christ. I don't think so. Commemorating vs "staking your claim to Christ" is quite a different animal. Let's just look at a few of these for example:
Good Friday -- how many 2x2 could tell us what Good Friday represents? Most all of them, you say? Thanks to modern resources or what they've been taught in the meetings?
I didn't even know what Good Friday was as a 2x2 child. I couldn't have told you during what time of the day Jesus was hung on the cross, what time he died, and very little of the crucifixion story.
I did know that Jesus ascended, but Ascension? Probably never heard the term.
Palm Sunday?
Lent? I knew it was something Catholics observed. But what was it? Why did they do it? What did it represent?
Pentecost? I had heard the term. Didn't have a clue about it. Do 2x2 children of today know what it is and the significance of it?
How many other exes here knew and/or understood these terms as a youth?
Maybe I was the only one who didn't know...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2010 18:14:21 GMT -5
StAnne, you seem to suggest that 2x2s ought to have a good understanding of Catholic traditions and terminology. If so, I have no idea why. I would agree that it would be somewhat useful to have a basic understanding of the traditions of other churches, but hardly necessary if they are not part of your own traditions. Are Catholic kids taught about Presbyterian, Mennonite, Mormon, Baptist traditions? Are those traditions validated as correct by the RCC?
I was brought up in a home where traditions of other churches were at least mentioned so we had a bit of knowledge. Also, we had Catholic friends who were able to explain Fish Fridays and Lent to us. Lent in particular was something I was very aware of as my generation of friends really did give up stuff that was near and dear to them and it was difficult for them. However, there was certainly no 2x2 formal training on other traditions and I hardly see it being necessary although it would be useful to help us understand our neighbours and why they do things in a certain way.
|
|
|
Post by StAnne on Apr 4, 2010 19:29:54 GMT -5
StAnne, you seem to suggest that 2x2s ought to have a good understanding of Catholic traditions and terminology. If so, I have no idea why. I would agree that it would be somewhat useful to have a basic understanding of the traditions of other churches, but hardly necessary if they are not part of your own traditions. Are Catholic kids taught about Presbyterian, Mennonite, Mormon, Baptist traditions? Are those traditions validated as correct by the RCC? I was brought up in a home where traditions of other churches were at least mentioned so we had a bit of knowledge. Also, we had Catholic friends who were able to explain Fish Fridays and Lent to us. Lent in particular was something I was very aware of as my generation of friends really did give up stuff that was near and dear to them and it was difficult for them. However, there was certainly no 2x2 formal training on other traditions and I hardly see it being necessary although it would be useful to help us understand our neighbours and why they do things in a certain way. Good Friday -- how many 2x2 could tell us what Good Friday represents? Most all of them, you say? Thanks to modern resources or what they've been taught in the meetings?
I didn't even know what Good Friday was as a 2x2 child. I couldn't have told you during what time of the day Jesus was hung on the cross, what time he died, and very little of the crucifixion story.
I did know that Jesus ascended, but Ascension? Probably never heard the term.
Palm Sunday?
Lent? I knew it was something Catholics observed. But what was it? Why did they do it? What did it represent?
Pentecost? I had heard the term. Didn't have a clue about it. Do 2x2 children of today know what it is and the significance of it?
How many other exes here knew and/or understood these terms as a youth?
Maybe I was the only one who didn't know... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Clearday... I selected these because I don't think any of these are Catholic-only but are commemorated in many of the Christian faith practices, including but not limited to Methodist, Lutheran, Orthodox, Presbyterian (I don't know about Lent with the Presbys...). I learned about Pentecost in the two Baptist churches we attended for a number of years--although not to the extent it is taught in the Catholic faith. Aren't the AOGs big on Pentecost? How about the 7th-Dayers? I specifically didn't mention Trinity from Bert's list because I know it wasn't/isn't 2x2 taught although it surely is in the majority of the Christian world. I am also aware that many of the newer churches are observing the old traditions of Ash Wednesday, Palm Sunday, Lent. The 2x2 certainly seem to attribute much of their "leading" to the Holy Spirit so why wouldn't they emphasize Pentecost--the biblical accounting of the Holy Spirit coming as Jesus said he would send the Advocate, the Comforter... I'm not speaking of so much of commemorating them on certain dates (2x2) but the actual teachings of the biblical accountings of these events...Pentecost by name, for instance... or reading John's entire accounting of the crucifixion story as a Wednesday night study... or reading aloud the passion story on the Sunday before Easter and the resurrection accounting on Easter Sunday...so that the children are knowlegable about the entire accounting instead of getting bits and pieces here and there...
|
|