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Post by StAnne on Apr 6, 2010 0:11:12 GMT -5
bert. It is well documented in the bible that the Christians continued to go to the temples and synagogues. Glad to have you point out that fact! What's with the persecution issue with you tonight? Didn't that come later on in history? It is pretty well documented that Christians were persecuted rather severely later on. Scott Re temple and synagogue. Some Christians did continue to attend these after Jesus, but not for long. Firstly many were banned from synagogues, and I wonder if this would have shifted to the temple before it was destroyed? But... Christian doctrine held that God does not dwell in temples made with hands, thus negating its importance to them. I just happened to have saved this from our recent discussion on the same topic. More info at the links."Because of the hostility of some local synagogue leaders and the persecution Christians often encountered, Johannine Christians saw parallels between what was happening to them and what had happened to Jesus. Gradually from the 50s until perhaps 125-150, a process of separation continued until finally, Christians and Jews saw themselves as belonging to different religions." www.catholicireland.net/pages/index.php?nd=100&art=581 "During the earliest years of the new Christian faith (30-70 AD) many Christians thought of themselves as "Messianic Jews"--Jews who understood that God had sent the long promised Messiah or Christ in Jesus of Nazareth. Being loyal Jews, they met at the beginning of the Sabbath (Friday evenings) in certain synagogues where the followers of Christ outnumbered the other Jews." www.newgenevacenter.org/12_Our-Story/13_early_church.htm "ca. 90 (or 85) - "Council of Jamnia" - leading Jewish rabbis meet to consolidate Judaism; expel "heretics" from synagogues, probably including those who believe Jesus is the Messiah; they also determine the "canon" of the Hebrew Bible 90's - Christianity gradually separates from Judaism and emerges as independent religion; local sporadic persecutions of Christians in Roman Empire slowly increase, esp. in Asia Minor under Emperors Domitian and Trajan" catholic-resources.org/Bible/History-Christian.htmlate 60's Gospel of Mark 80's Jewish Christians expelled from synagogues in some places (HarperCollins, 2011) - but some Christians continue to meet in synagogues as late as 400's (Meeks, 88) www.drury.edu/ess/values/christianscriptures.html
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 0:16:35 GMT -5
Re the Temple. A complex issue. God gave His approval for the temple by entering it, but God never asked for a temple.
(God did not want a king either, but He gave us the "house of David.")
These people who met IN A HOUSE had the seal of God's approval. It wasn't just the house, of course, but this is where they were worshiping.
There was no possibility of Christian worship in the Temple.
According to the bible (and the historian Josephus) the spirit left the temple before it was destroyed by God. No other temple was ordained.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 0:23:36 GMT -5
St.Anne, your historic material is interesting. But I do take exception to this term, "Johannine Christians." I don't see daylight between the early Christians as seen in John's, Peter's, Jude's, the Hebrews author and Paul's letters. Paul DID warn about those who wanted to separated themselves according to who they professed through. Many such people probably left and formed rival churches. Lots of history about early Christians did not concern the apostolic church. Whole groups broke away.
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 6, 2010 0:32:14 GMT -5
They went daily to the temple. Acts 2:46 And they continuing daily with one accord in the temple and breaking bread from house to house... (going to the temple was as important as going to the house. ~~ Acts 2:41,42. Then they that gladly baptized; and the same day they were added unto them about 3000 souls. And they continued STEADFASTLY in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers....And they continued to meet together in the temple (courtyard! helping the Jews to accept Jesus as the Christ) and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart.
Acts 3:1 The apostles Peter and John returned to the temple courtyard! PREACHING Christ to the Jews who gathered at the temple courtyard... (Acts 4:4) through their preachings 5000 Jews converted to Christ. Don't add what is not there Nathan. it does not say in the court yard helping the Jews to accept Jesus as the Christ. you added that yourself. They were continually in the temple praising and blessing God (Luke 24:53) this was after the resurrection. It other places it says they went to the temple to pray. The women did not teach at the temple, they went to pray and worship God. You must be reading from another Bible as mine does not say they entered into the temple, it does not say courtyard. it says they went into the temple in Acts 3:1 They went to the temple to pray, to worship and praise God and to teach and preach.
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 6, 2010 0:34:58 GMT -5
Re the Temple. A complex issue. God gave His approval for the temple by entering it, but God never asked for a temple.(God did not want a king either, but He gave us the "house of David.") These people who met IN A HOUSE had the seal of God's approval. It wasn't just the house, of course, but this is where they were worshiping. There was no possibility of Christian worship in the Temple.According to the bible (and the historian Josephus) the spirit left the temple before it was destroyed by God. No other temple was ordained. God gave specific measurements for the Art of Covenant and if I remember the temple, the courtyard etc.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 6, 2010 0:39:57 GMT -5
St.Anne, your historic material is interesting. I did present it for the historical content. I may partially agree with you on this statement. Although, I'm certain we would not agree on "who" the apostolic church is.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 0:51:03 GMT -5
Just WHO the apostolic Christians were, and who weren't is not easy to discern due to subtleties in doctrine etc.. But the NT does tell us about some: people who reverted to the Law (touch not, taste not, washing of cups and pots, observing days and weeks and months etc..) People who disputed with the apostles. People who broke away and formed their own churches. People who made merchandise of their followers.
Some of the churches in Revelation were well down the path to apostasy, and the "foolish Galatians" too. Perhaps the Apostolic Church was a minority in the Christian spectrum by the end of John's time, who knows.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 0:54:34 GMT -5
What do you mean?
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Post by Done4now on Apr 6, 2010 0:55:30 GMT -5
Just WHO the apostolic Christians were, and who weren't is not easy to discern due to subtleties in doctrine etc.. But the NT does tell us about some: people who reverted to the Law (touch not, taste not, washing of cups and pots, observing days and weeks and months etc..) People who disputed with the apostles. People who broke away and formed their own churches. People who made merchandise of their followers. Some of the churches in Revelation were well down the path to apostasy, and the "foolish Galatians" too. Perhaps the Apostolic Church was a minority in the Christian spectrum by the end of John's time, who knows. Jesus's church was meant to be a city on a hill, a light to the world. I believe what Jesus promised, over your interpretation of history.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 6, 2010 0:56:11 GMT -5
Hi St Anne Oops Yes, it is Luke 11:13. . .sorry S'okay. I would have looked it up anyway. Even if we were told to diligently seek--I didn't have a clue where to begin. Nor did I know to pray for the Holy Spirit's guidance in reading God's word. It seems that we mostly got snipits from here and from there, with no guided instruction.Go to the post you want to quote and click the "Quote" button. You can edit once you've pulled the post in there. If I didn't answer what you are needing, just ask again.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 1:01:54 GMT -5
If you want to quote from an element of a larger body of text you just write open square bracket, the word QUOTE and then end square bracket.
insert text
close with
open square bracket, back slash, the word QUOTE and then end square bracket.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 1:14:45 GMT -5
Nathan, temple lovers will tell you the Christians worshiped in the Temple. But that shows an ignorance of the Truth, IMO.
Would they celebrate the sacrifice when they believe Jesus was the sacrifice?
Would they believe in the Temple and its goodly stones when Jesus repudiated all that?
Would they believe in the High Priest when Jesus is their High Priest
Would they believe in the High Priest when Jesus was killed at the behest of the same High Priest?
Would love all that washing of cups and pots, those priestly garments, that old liturgy about a coming King?
Would they love all the shadows and imitations of what Christ made real?
Would they believe that God was even IN the Temple anymore, given that He had torn asunder the curtain to the Holiest of Holies, showing that they may enter into God's presence WITHOUT the Temple?
This has the potential for a good web page... . ;D
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 1:21:04 GMT -5
Isayrejoice, your quote:
On this board people will criticize EVERYTHING we do FROM TOTALLY OPPOSING POINTS OF VIEW. Jesus warned this would happen.
So,
a - the Workers make it too complicated b - the Workers are simple / simpletons / feed milk / don't know theology; history or cultural studies.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 1:24:47 GMT -5
Chirkham - that's not my "interpretation of history" but plain reading of the bible. Haven't you read of Paul's warning to the "foolish Galatians" Ever read Jesus' message to the churches in Revelation?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 1:31:08 GMT -5
Sorry, I will bow out!
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Post by StAnne on Apr 6, 2010 1:31:52 GMT -5
S'okay. I would have looked it up anyway. Even if we were told to diligently seek--I didn't have a clue where to begin. Nor did I know to pray for the Holy Spirit's guidance in reading God's word. It seems that we mostly got snipits from here and from there, with no guided instruction.Go to the post you want to quote and click the "Quote" button. You can edit once you've pulled the post in there. If I didn't answer what you are needing, just ask again. I hope this works...I clicked the quote on your response St Anne I will tell you how i learned to seek for myself: 1. I was starving for Spiritual food and health. 2. Ignoring all workers warnings to only read the King James, I went to the Christian book store and bought a study Bible that I thought would meet my needs. 3. Luckily, about that time we moved to a field where the elder really understood the needs of his church and he encouraged me to have private studies with him. He was one in a million, and he has passed on to his reward. I also connected with an ex-worker who was able to understand my need just from my testimonies in mtg. She invited me to her home and thus, began a very fruitful relationship. We studied at least 3 hours a week for 5 years. She, too has passed on to her reward.Anyway, after that I was off and running. 4. I always thought the workers made everything sound so complicated, and I thought I had to depend on them to explain scrpture, but I was starving to death. God provided. My Bible is my goldmine and my prayer life is real and sustaining. I am there daily. Yay!!! A+ on the quoting.
You know, we didn't have (or know about) the information options in the 60s that we have now. The 'Truth' was so strict and confining then (and there--KS). I've been out since approx 1967 and have never looked back. Forward, but not back.
I'm happy for you that you found your solution, and found good people to assist you. God truly did provide.
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Post by Done4now on Apr 6, 2010 1:37:00 GMT -5
Chirkham - that's not my "interpretation of history" but plain reading of the bible. Haven't you read of Paul's warning to the "foolish Galatians" Ever read Jesus' message to the churches in Revelation? Let's talk a bit about what was happening in Galations. This is a good example of a situation that was successfully handled by the church fathers. It shows that the Church had the power and authority to deal with disagreements. Acts 15:1 tells us: “Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, ‘Unless you are circumcised ..., you cannot be saved.” It was the Jewish faction under James (bishop of Jerusalem) that was troubling the Gentiles (Acts 15:5, Gal 2:12). Thus, James is speaking for them, not for the whole council. Indeed, that’s why his remarks were recorded —to show that the leader of the Jewish faction subscribed to the decisions of the council, and so silence the Judaizers who Paul will encounter later (Titus 1:10-11).* As leader of the church in Jerusalem, James headed up a congregation which counted among its members many priests and Pharisees who still held to their Jewish roots and believed that Gentiles must become Jews through circumcision in order to become Christians. I refer you to the following: Acts 4:36-37 36Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means Son of Encouragement), 37sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles' feet. Acts 6:7 7So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith. Some from among this group had gone to Galatia and upset the Gentile believers there. Galatians 2:11-14 11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. From this, we can see that the Council of Jerusalem was divided into two camps: those who believed the Gentile converts should be circumcised and those who did not. Peter addresses the former with these words: “Now then, why do you [Judaizers] try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." (Acts 15:10-11) James addresses them, also: "Brothers, listen to me. 14Simon (note that James even used Peter's Hebrew name when speaking to the Judaizers) has described to us (James must be speaking here to the believers from Jerusalem since those from Galatia would already have been familiar with God's work in that province!) how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself...19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we (the Jewish Christians of Jerusalem) should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them..." (Acts 15:13-20) Thus, after hearing Peter's doctrinal pronouncement, James rose to speak and addressed those from his own flock whom he knew would have the hardest time accepting Peter's decision. James accepted Peter's teaching and added his own pastoral comments for the benefit of the pro-circumcision group present and for those who might be tempted to doubt that the leader of the "Judaizers" really had accepted the decision of the full ecumenical council that circumcision was unnecessary for Gentiles.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 6, 2010 1:38:35 GMT -5
Sorry--I know you asked Bert. Check top center-right of the index page. You should have a PM waiting.
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Post by Done4now on Apr 6, 2010 1:54:07 GMT -5
Chirkham - that's not my "interpretation of history" but plain reading of the bible. Haven't you read of Paul's warning to the "foolish Galatians" Ever read Jesus' message to the churches in Revelation? I laughed out loud when I read about your plain reading of the bible and of Jesus' message to the churches in Revelation. I do hope that you are aware that as far as the seven churches of Revelations are concerned, the book of Revelation is Apocalyptic literature. It was not written literally nor is it intended to be interpreted literally.This book was written in a code language and we do not have the code. It was written in a time of terrible Roman persecution in a way that the Romans would not understand if they got ahold of it. And it certainly was not intended to be read as future predicting "prophecy". St John the Revelator was no early day Jean Dixon.
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Post by kiwi on Apr 6, 2010 2:24:20 GMT -5
Isayrejoice, your quote: On this board people will criticize EVERYTHING we do FROM TOTALLY OPPOSING POINTS OF VIEW. Jesus warned this would happen. So, a - the Workers make it too complicated b - the Workers are simple / simpletons / don't know theology or history or cultural studies. I wasn't talking to you , Bert, but I could've better said, "The workers made it too much of a mystery for me to get much from their message." Could you tell me how to private message someone? Well of course if God is not giving you the increase then no matter who preaches to you it will always be a mystery
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Post by kiwi on Apr 6, 2010 2:31:32 GMT -5
and as far as the seven churches of Revelations are concerned, be aware that the book of Revelation is Apochalyptic literature. It was not written literally nor is it intended to be interpreted literaly. This book was written in a code language and we do not have the code. It was written in a time of terrible Roman persecution in a way that the Romans would not understand if they got ahold of it. And it certainly was not intended to be read as future predicting "prophecy". St John the revelator was no early day Jean Dixon. Well of course if God is not giving the increase/revelation then it will remain hidden in code, but if He gives the increase/revelation then it will be understood literally and no need for a code breaker Does this Jean Dixon equal God in interpretation power?
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Post by Done4now on Apr 6, 2010 2:51:44 GMT -5
and as far as the seven churches of Revelations are concerned, be aware that the book of Revelation is Apochalyptic literature. It was not written literally nor is it intended to be interpreted literaly. This book was written in a code language and we do not have the code. It was written in a time of terrible Roman persecution in a way that the Romans would not understand if they got ahold of it. And it certainly was not intended to be read as future predicting "prophecy". St John the revelator was no early day Jean Dixon. Well of course if God is not giving the increase/revelation then it will remain hidden in code, but if He gives the increase/revelation then it will be understood literally and no need for a code breaker Does this Jean Dixon equal God in interpretation power? Lots of people/groups CLAIM that they have been given the increase/revelation from God and that they hold the key so that there is no need for a code breaker. In fact many groups today such as the JWs (or the Mormons, or the Seventh-day Adventists, or the Cooneyites or some other fringe group) knock on people's door and claim to have "a true understanding of Scripture," and sadly many people can be taken. The tragedies of Jonestown, Waco and of the Heaven's Gate group all demonstrate the reality that people can be led to their destruction (at least physical, if not spiritual as well) by those who distort God's Word.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 4:31:54 GMT -5
I just feel I have to respond here regarding comments about the friends and workers not helping those in need. Who in the world said we do not help those in need? No , it is not part of our doctrine to give charity (clearly, what is our doctrine?) I know many professing people that have been helped out financially by other friends who expect nothing in return. Our church sent hundreds of dollars to the workers and friends in Haiti. I know there are some who do not believe this should be part of our fellowship and I know you will respond to this posting. It has to do with love, compassion and caring for others. If doing charitable works isn't in the workers' doctrine then it blooming well should be! Do a study of Acts 2:42-47 Here we read the fellowship continued steadfastly in the Apostles' doctrine! Many charitable works were done by the church through following that doctrine. Just go read. And the beauty of it all? They met the needs of others (including outsiders) and the church was added to daily. Go figure. Yes, there are friends and workers who do charitable works, but these are by and large in spite of the workers' doctrine (which has tended to be against such activities) rather than because of it. If the times are a changing, then that is a welcome development and a proper Christian one.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 6, 2010 7:15:30 GMT -5
I just feel I have to respond here regarding comments about the friends and workers not helping those in need. Who in the world said we do not help those in need? No , it is not part of our doctrine to give charity (clearly, what is our doctrine?) I know many professing people that have been helped out financially by other friends who expect nothing in return. Our church sent hundreds of dollars to the workers and friends in Haiti. I know there are some who do not believe this should be part of our fellowship and I know you will respond to this posting. It has to do with love, compassion and caring for others. ~~ Yes, some have accused us (2x2s) are NOT helping the needy, given money to charities, volunteers in community.... this is NOT true at all. Many of the friends have done this for years.
We should help the workers, those needy in our fellowship first before helping others. Charity begins at home first.
I hope the workers will encourage the friends NOT only helping those in our fellowship and in the ministry but also extend our work of charities to non-2x2s.... like the doctor, nurses friends and others in Washington state volunteered and went to Haiti helping out those unfortunated people.It seems to me the fact of no charity to others outside of the fellowship perhaps came from the initial converts who were typically poor or nearly poor and all their scrapped up access, if one wants to call it access, was given to the poor real itinerant workers...the beginning workers often didn't have more then the clothes on their back...maybe one pair of underclothes extra, so they could wash the other.... I remember when one of the Mexican workers came home a couple of years ago for the last time and he stood up to preach at a spec. mtg. Bless his heart his clothes looked like they'd seen better days...I feel he'd given almost every cent he had to the Mexican friends who often are so very poor....and when Mexican converts come in, often they have to quit stealing in order to live and thus they are very needy. I will never forget the look of that man's clothing and knowing him well, I feel a certainty he didn't take much for himself...he was of the "old school" of workers....I strongly suspect he never bought his own tickets home...they were bought for him by the workers in power. Otherwise he probably never would have made it home...bless his heart! we took care of another worker from the So. American fields and his clothing was little better, though he had plenty of family that tried to keep him in good clothing, but he had few clothes...but maybe in better condition due to his extended family..... On the other hand, I know ofr a few workers in poor countries who have had the best clothing, though maybe not so many due to the need for conservation in traveling.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 6, 2010 7:19:18 GMT -5
StAnne, this is exactly my point. By way of example, where in the bible does it say was can't celebrate Flatbread Day? If I establish Flatbread Day then won't YOU add it to your liturgical calendar? AND, as an aside - I just looked up Pentecost again. Wikipedia has it in beside the Temple Court! I thought it was in someone's house! Some are trying to say that the spirit continued in the Temple after the crucifixion. AND, as an aside - I just looked up Pentecost again. Wikipedia has it in beside the Temple Court! I thought it was in someone's house! It is Catholic teaching that Mary and the Apostles were in the Upper Room. "And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a mighty wind coming, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them parted tongues as it were of fire, and it sat upon every one of them: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak. [Acts 2:2-4] Christ had promised His Apostles that He would send His Holy Spirit, and, on Pentecost, they were granted the gifts of the Spirit. The Apostles began to preach the Gospel in all of the languages that the Jews who were gathered there spoke, and about 3,000 people were converted and baptized that day." catholicism.about.com/od/holydaysandholidays/p/Pentecost.htmSo...perhaps the Jews were gathered in the Temple Court?The scripture says "house" alright, however there could be a translation difference OR it could really make little difference....I think there were small rooms or alcoves in the temple were there not? Where some could be private.....I'm not certain on that...but I really think the "where" is not important as much as "what" occurred. I think that's what gets us all in trouble trying to copy the bible so closely, we get taken up with the form of it instead of the "what" occurred.....thus losing the full blessing of that occurrance. JMO
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Post by sharonw on Apr 6, 2010 7:22:52 GMT -5
As part of the have-it-both-ways process here, we have people stating the early Christians didn't have churches for fear of the Jews, and then others (or the same people?!) saying that the Christians met right in the Temple itself! bert. It is well documented in the bible that the Christians continued to go to the temples and synagogues. Glad to have you point out that fact! What's with the persecution issue with you tonight? Didn't that come later on in history? It is pretty well documented that Christians were persecuted rather severely later on. Scott I think we read about the "fear of the Jews" during Jesus' death, and resurrection....I think the scattering of the children was in due to the fear of the Jews...I think this is where Peter's denial comes into play...he wanted to be there close to Jesus but yet fear caused him to deny him.....I don't think the "fear of the Jews" changed much after that....and I do recall it mentioning it again in Acts. when Saul of Tarsus was going about persecuting the converts of Jesus Christ.....I think fear of the Jews played into that all along from the time Jesus was betrayed clear through the final destruction of the churches throughout the Roman empire....
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 9:02:06 GMT -5
Nathan, I think you are blind to the obvious which is contained in the New Testament. The temple and synagogues were used amongst other places by Christians as places of public worship. I think you are obseessed with making "homes" the only valid "church buildings!"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 9:29:32 GMT -5
Nathan, that was a VERY LARGE HOUSE to contain the crowd of 3,000 plus who assembled around these men at Pentecost! Please understand, a HOUSE is not necessarily a mere home. That was not a small bog-standard dwelling where meeting is held. A house is basically a building, any building. A church building IS a HOUSE! In former times a house often referred to a large building, which is the case even today.
Many large houses had places for public assembly. Often domestic quarters (homes) were attached to them.
HOUSE = BUILDING. The Temple was the ahem......House of God. What did Jesus say about the money lenders......? "My HOUSE (ie the temple) shall be called of all nations the HOUSE of prayer? But ye have made it a den of thieves."
You are making a huge mistake in assuming referrences to a "house" is automatically a "home." Please do a study of the Bible, OT and NT and you will see that HOUSE has many meanings, most often different from a mere small home, or home was only a small part of it. House was often a place of public assembly.
Remember, Jesus himself described the Temple as a HOUSE. It was the House of God. Church buildings are HOUSES AND homes where people gather for worship are quite simply CHURCH BUILDINGS.
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