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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 9:31:55 GMT -5
Nathan, I think you are blind to the obvious which is contained in the New Testament. The temple and synagogues were used amongst other places by Christians as places of public worship. I think you are obseessed with making "homes" the only valid "church buildings!" ~~ God knew the Jerusalem temple would be destroyed in A.D. 70 and synagouges a temporary places for gathering had served it purposed! after the death of Jesus God had a NEW system for the Christians to adhere to, places of gathering for His followers to gather and to worship God and with one another NOT in the temple court or in the synagouges of the Jews but in the homes of believers for Christ's Passover in rememberance of Him.
Jesus, the apostles, the disciples went to the Temple court and the synagouges of the Jews to TEACH and PREACH... making converts for Christ.
Acts 18:24-28 Aquillia and Prisilla went to the synagouge meeting non-believing fellow Jews and invited Apollo to their home where they expound the way of Jesus to him. Apollo became one of the leading apostles in the New Testament.
Acts 17:1-4 Paul and Silas went to the Jews synagouges, explaining and proving Jesus is the Christ... and many Jews, devout Greeks, a great multitude and many prominent women believed and joined with Paul and Silas. Nathan, the early Christians celebrated the emblems (breaking bread from house to house) as part of a meal (probably daily) at the same time as they visited the temple and synagogue for worship. The two practices co-existed.
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 6, 2010 9:44:52 GMT -5
~~ Bert, my friend this is my observation why some people are defending the temple and synagouges because they are attending the church buildings and Cathedrals today. The bishops in Rome taught wrong teaching and made a bad move by building basillica (sp) for holding the Eucharists/Christ's Passover instead in the homes of the Christians like Jesus had instituted in Luke 22.Well Nathan, my observation is a bit different than you have. I personally don't DEFEND the temple and the synagogue. I do point out that the believers met there. You use your belief that the home is the only correct place to share in the emblems because Jesus did so in a rented room at an Inn. bert on the other hand uses a different approach. He trots out the verse about how God does not live in a temple built by hands. Your belief in the 'home' being the only correct place of worship is actually not the practice of the truth fellowship. They worship in tents and barns and under bridges and churches and grange halls and on and on. You also try to say that gospel meetings, special meetings and conventions are not 'worship' services, so they don't fall into the 'worship' category. If that were so, then there would be no singing at any of those gatherings, there would be no 'testimony time' at any of those gatherings, there would be no eating, no prayer etc. Likewise we read here of the emblems being partaken of in some conventions in other countries. Obviously the home is NOT the only place that worship and partaking of the emblems takes place. I have heard of it being done in other places as well other than the home Now of course this is only my personal conviction on the matter, so you are welcome to believe as you personally wish but you must realize that how you believe in this matter is NOT universal among the professing folks. In fact, it is not universal among the workers either for that matter. Then there is bert. He uses the 'God does not dwell in temples built by hands' on a regular basis, and yet ignores a few facts that go along with that. Of course the most glaring fact is that WE are the temple where God lives. God does not live in ANYTHING built by man. He doesn't live in a house, and he doesn't live in a barn. He is there with us no matter where we are. That was the whole point in that passage you quote. Acts 17:
23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.The point is that God is much bigger than anything man may want to confine him to. He is the Lord of heaven and earth. He can't be confined by anything man may want to come up with. Jesus made it pretty clear concerning what the temple was John 2:
18Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?"
19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
20The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?"Just my personal thoughts on the subject. Scott
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 9:49:07 GMT -5
Scott, you're on the wrong forum. Three doors down on the left is the common sense and sound logic room.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 9:54:30 GMT -5
Nathan, a house is any building, often a large one. A home is a place where people stay, not necessarily a house (building).
A home in which people stay, and which is a building, and is used for common worship is a church building, i.e. it is a building where the church (body of believers) assembles for worship.
The Temple was a House, a Home (inner sanctuary for God), a church building, amongst other things.
The HOUSE at Pentecost was clearly a very large building and one likely used/hired for public assembly.
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 6, 2010 10:01:19 GMT -5
Scott, you're on the wrong forum. Three doors down on the left is the common sense and sound logic room. Ohh....... sorry about that......
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 6, 2010 10:09:58 GMT -5
I asked an overseer what scripture mentioned "conventions"...his answer was..."There are no conventions mentioned per se...but Paul had gatherings to 'confirm the saints'." The only scripture that I've heard a worker cite as the basis for conventions was 2 Chronicles 34:29-32 or 2 Kings 22-23. It didn't make much sense to me. At the time I was studying the various times in history when the temple was built and rebuilt in Jerusalem. When Josiah was reigning as king at Jerusalem, he tried to set things in order by restoring the temple and some of the worship practices of his ancestors. While fixing up the temple, they found a copy of the law. This "convention" in 2 Chronicles 34 was a gathering of elders and people to hear the entire Law read aloud because it had been lost for a few generations. Not quite the same as an annual convention! This is the scripture that comes to my mind; "And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together." It's logical that the Spirit would lead believers into fellowship, with God individually, with two or three others, with 1000; into fellowship that's blessed with words of edification, exhortation and comfort. It really is that simple to me, and yet it's criticised to no end. I don't understand why so many feel moved to belittle something God has blessed, what gain is there in doing that?
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 6, 2010 10:15:32 GMT -5
It's logical that the Spirit would lead believers into fellowship, with God individually, with two or three others, with 1000; into fellowship that's blessed with words of edification, exhortation and comfort. It really is that simple to me, and yet it's criticised to no end. I don't understand why so many feel moved to belittle something God has blessed, what gain is there in doing that? Same as I believe Jesse. I can't understand why people would belittle any gathering of believers. Why some of the friends and workers want to belittle how other members of the body of Christ gather just baffles me!!! Scott
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 10:21:58 GMT -5
It's logical that the Spirit would lead believers into fellowship, with God individually, with two or three others, with 1000; into fellowship that's blessed with words of edification, exhortation and comfort. It really is that simple to me, and yet it's criticised to no end. I don't understand why so many feel moved to belittle something God has blessed, what gain is there in doing that? Same as I believe Jesse. I can't understand why people would belittle any gathering of believers. Why some of the friends and workers want to belittle how other members of the body of Christ gather just baffles me!!! Scott Scott, it doesn't baffle me (had a quick look in third room down on the left!). You see, in the early days of Irvine's methodism the workers blasted anything and everything to do with traditional Christianity, including church buildings. A lot of that legacy prevails even today, although not as openly as back them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 10:24:11 GMT -5
Once you changed what Jesus had instituted you will get different results and a big MESS. God Know exactly what He was doing so don't try to improve it. Yes Nathan, and much of the mess we are reading about in the two and two's is down to just that, isn't it?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 6, 2010 10:27:06 GMT -5
Beating others with dead horses just exposes our own carnal failing. It's a carnal nature thing. But instead of seeing it for what it is we tend to self rightously beat others up with their carnal failings anyway - it's such a common way to inflate our own self-importance beyond what it really is. Everyone getting caught in that trap should remember God covers failings that are repented of, and the rest of us have no right to tamper with a covering God has provided to someone else.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 10:53:19 GMT -5
Truth exposes like a blinding light. The Pharisees grasped at many falsehoods to use as shields, but that did not prevent their darkness being exposed. Their defences only created shadows in the light.
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 6, 2010 10:57:44 GMT -5
Yes Nathan, and much of the mess we are reading about in the two and two's is down to just that, isn't it? ~~ Well, the workers and the friends are humans. They will make mess Thanks goodness for the blood of Jesus there to forgive our sins. There are MESSES in all other churches also wouldn't you agree? there is no perfect church as long men and women are part of the group.
Are you saying your church don't have any MESS to clean up, Ram?Well, speaking for my church, there have been issues that come up. The church uses Mathew 18 to take care of issues. These issues are brought openly before the church body and dealt with. Very refreshing to have a church willing to cleanse itself without trying to downplay the seriousness of the issues and to bring problems out into the light of Christ and take care of them. Like you say, anything of man will have problems. The problem lies with those issues that AREN'T dealt with. All churches have issues. Some rely on biblical teachings to deal with those issues and some don't. Scott
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 10:58:57 GMT -5
Yes Nathan, and much of the mess we are reading about in the two and two's is down to just that, isn't it? ~~ Well, the workers and the friends are humans. They will make mess Thanks goodness for the blood of Jesus there to forgive our sins. There are MESSES in all other churches also wouldn't you agree? there is no perfect church as long men and women are part of the group.
Are you saying your church don't have any MESS to clean up, Ram?Ah Nathan, we are singing from the same hymn sheet! Welcome to the club. Your church is the same as all other churches. We all have our messes to contend with. There is no perfect church. Well said. How often I heard the reverse. You are to be commended for this honesty. Remember, you are the one who is implying your church is "different," not me. You are the one that is making it out to be better than others, not me.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 11:25:23 GMT -5
Exactly Nathan. Let us focus on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.
Always remember, in England the law regards a man's home as his castle!
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Post by snow on Apr 6, 2010 11:32:44 GMT -5
Nathan, I think you are blind to the obvious which is contained in the New Testament. The temple and synagogues were used amongst other places by Christians as places of public worship. I think you are obseessed with making "homes" the only valid "church buildings!" There always seems to be obsession when it comes to religions. It is all important for each one to prove they are the correct one and have the right interpretation. I wish everyone could see that God is big enough to be all inclusive. Then this never ending "I'm right, you're wrong" could finally end.
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Post by snow on Apr 6, 2010 11:43:09 GMT -5
There always seems to be obsession when it comes to religions. It is all important for each one to prove they are the correct one and have the right interpretation. I wish everyone could see that God is big enough to be all inclusive. Then this never ending "I'm right, you're wrong" could finally end. ~~ Trouble comes when men tried to change and improve God's truth, way, methods. Look at the church history the last 2000 yrs and you will understand the need to do what Jesus teaches.Nathan you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say. God doesn't care how we worship him, only that we do by establishing a personal connection with him. That can be done as an individual that attends no particular religion or it can be done in any religion on earth. Arguing about who knows what god wants just divides us all and causes heartache and suffering. Sometimes it even causes wars. I am not saying I am right, but I do see a great benefit in accepting how others define god for themselves and leave it at that. I also recognize that by my saying this at all, is a contradiction. However, it is my observation of how things could be more harmonious in this world.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 6, 2010 12:17:46 GMT -5
Nathan, that was a VERY LARGE HOUSE to contain the crowd of 3,000 plus who assembled around these men at Pentecost! Please understand, a HOUSE is not necessarily a mere home. That was not a small bog-standard dwelling where meeting is held. A house is basically a building, any building. A church building IS a HOUSE! In former times a house often referred to a large building, which is the case even today. Many large houses had places for public assembly. Often domestic quarters (homes) were attached to them. HOUSE = BUILDING. The Temple was the ahem......House of God. What did Jesus say about the money lenders......? "My HOUSE (ie the temple) shall be called of all nations the HOUSE of prayer? But ye have made it a den of thieves." You are making a huge mistake in assuming referrences to a "house" is automatically a "home." Please do a study of the Bible, OT and NT and you will see that HOUSE has many meanings, most often different from a mere small home, or home was only a small part of it. House was often a place of public assembly. Remember, Jesus himself described the Temple as a HOUSE. It was the House of God. Church buildings are HOUSES AND homes where people gather for worship are quite simply CHURCH BUILDINGS. ~~~ Once the Spirit filled the HOUSE! they went into the street talking, preaching to the multitude people who gathered in Jerusalem for the Pentecostal feast. I don't believe they STAYED in the house because it was too small to accomodate the large crowd.
Church buildings and homes are not the same... If it was Jesus and apostles would have built church buildings all over the places using as place of worship and teachings in the first century which they didn't do.
God the Father knew exactly what He was doing when He sent His Son, and the apostles as Itinerant preachers of the gospel. The church elders to provide homes for Jesus' followers homes where they can gather to worship God and with one another.
The Itinerant apostles could use any places for preaching the goodnews! building churches cost too much money and put a great burden on the believers.... And you can't move the church buildings from one place to another easily either. Luke 2:49 And He said to them, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 12:30:46 GMT -5
Nathan, WE are the Father's House. We are the Father's HOME. He "dwells" in the hearts of those who love him.
The issue is not where Christians meet. When we meet together, wherever that may be, in spirit and in truth, WE are God's HOME! We make up the HOUSE of God. It's about what WE are, not WHERE WE ARE!
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Post by ScholarGal on Apr 6, 2010 12:59:33 GMT -5
The only scripture that I've heard a worker cite as the basis for conventions was 2 Chronicles 34:29-32 or 2 Kings 22-23. It didn't make much sense to me. At the time I was studying the various times in history when the temple was built and rebuilt in Jerusalem. When Josiah was reigning as king at Jerusalem, he tried to set things in order by restoring the temple and some of the worship practices of his ancestors. While fixing up the temple, they found a copy of the law. This "convention" in 2 Chronicles 34 was a gathering of elders and people to hear the entire Law read aloud because it had been lost for a few generations. Not quite the same as an annual convention! This is the scripture that comes to my mind; "And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together." It's logical that the Spirit would lead believers into fellowship, with God individually, with two or three others, with 1000; into fellowship that's blessed with words of edification, exhortation and comfort. It really is that simple to me, and yet it's criticised to no end. I don't understand why so many feel moved to belittle something God has blessed, what gain is there in doing that? I'm not belittling the convention gathering at all! Just the inappropriate scriptural explanation... The bible is very clear in stating that believers should have fellowship together. Convention can be a wonderful place to nurture natural and spiritual relationships.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 6, 2010 13:05:11 GMT -5
Nathan, WE are the Father's House. We are the Father's HOME. He "dwells" in the hearts of those who love him. The issue is not where Christians meet. When we meet together, wherever that may be, in spirit and in truth, WE are God's HOME! We make up the HOUSE of God. It's about what WE are, not WHERE WE ARE! ~~ hmmmmm... Not WHERE WE ARE then why are you NOT attending the Catholic Church? the Jehovah Witnesses church? or the Pentecostal church? The Mormons church? and why are you attending the Baptist church. Why, did you pick this certain particular church if WHERE WE ARE are NOT that important.
Why people are jumping from one church to another if the WHERE we ARE NOT that big of a deal? If you believe the Holy Spirit is present in a convention shed (why oh why can't we say meeting building just as we used to say meeting tent), then there's no logical reason to say the Holy Spirit isn't present in the buildings where other Christians meet.
Oh. Does calling it a shed instead of a building somehow give it God's blessing? Now, that line of thinking is a bit silly isn't it.
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 6, 2010 13:11:06 GMT -5
~~ hmmmmm... Not WHERE WE ARE then why are you NOT attending the Catholic Church? the Jehovah Witnesses church? or the Pentecostal church? The Mormons church? and why are you attending the Baptist church. Why, did you pick this certain particular church if WHERE WE ARE are NOT that important.
Why people are jumping from one church to another if the WHERE we ARE NOT that big of a deal? hmmm... can you name any church that will give you salvation Nathan? Isn't it that personal relationship with Jesus/God that is important? If you believe the words of Jesus, Mark 16
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.And then again: Matthew 11:
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."John 6:
40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 14:
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.Can you show us any verses in the bible that tells us that where we worship affects our salvation? Can we rely on the words of Jesus on this matter? Scott
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Post by StAnne on Apr 6, 2010 13:23:51 GMT -5
If you believe the Holy Spirit is present in a convention shed (why oh why can't we say meeting building just as we used to say meeting tent), then there's no logical reason to say the Holy Spirit isn't present in the buildings where other Christians meet.
Oh. Does calling it a shed somehow give it God's blessing? Now, that's a bit silly isn't it. ~~ Tents to meeting sheds... for safety of the friends, following goverment codes for large gathering, less time spending at preps for workers. You didn't really answer the questions.
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 6, 2010 14:09:27 GMT -5
~~ It is NOT silly at all. If the Holy spirit was in the church buildings the early workers wouldn't have LEFT their churches to follow something different from what they were raised in. If I had felt the Spirit of God in the church buiding I wouldn't have LEFT it in 1978. Well now Nathan.... Are you saying that the Holy Spirit dwells in buildings made with hands? God/Jesus/Holy Spirit dwells within the believers. Scott
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Post by StAnne on Apr 6, 2010 14:11:39 GMT -5
You didn't really answer the questions. ~~ It is NOT silly at all. If the Holy spirit was in the church buildings the early workers wouldn't have LEFT their churches to follow something different from what they were raised in. If I had felt the Spirit of God in the church buiding I wouldn't have LEFT it in 1978.If the Holy spirit was in the church buildings So. You're attempting to convince us that the Holy Spirit is in convention sheds. But not in church buildings. Have I got that right?
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 6, 2010 14:13:17 GMT -5
You didn't really answer the questions. ~~ It is NOT silly at all. If the Holy spirit was in the church buildings the early workers wouldn't have LEFT their churches to follow something different from what they were raised in. If I had felt the Spirit of God in the church buiding I wouldn't have LEFT it in 1978.Here are the words of Jesus in regard to where the Holy Spirit will be: John 14:
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.I think that is a fairly trustworthy source as to where we will find the Holy Spirit, don't you? Scott
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Post by Annan on Apr 6, 2010 14:28:54 GMT -5
There always seems to be obsession when it comes to religions. It is all important for each one to prove they are the correct one and have the right interpretation. I wish everyone could see that God is big enough to be all inclusive. Then this never ending "I'm right, you're wrong" could finally end. Party pooper!
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Post by Annan on Apr 6, 2010 14:34:02 GMT -5
Let's see... According to some of the conversation here, I can only assume the Holy Spirit dwelled in my grandmother's living room as that's where Sunday service was held. As my grandmother passed away and a non-professing person now lives there, does the HS still abide there? Must get awfully lonely.
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Post by snow on Apr 6, 2010 14:35:50 GMT -5
There always seems to be obsession when it comes to religions. It is all important for each one to prove they are the correct one and have the right interpretation. I wish everyone could see that God is big enough to be all inclusive. Then this never ending "I'm right, you're wrong" could finally end. Party pooper! LOL
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