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Post by Wondering on Dec 10, 2006 14:54:42 GMT -5
Im new to this board so forgive me if this has already been discussed.
My friend is a wonderful person kind,sweet and just wnderful They are also gay. I wonder everytime i read the verses that say that its an abomination to God... what that means for them. Im not professing, just wondering what that means for them as a Christian (they arent at the moment but I want to ask them to come to an alpha course with me...) Surely God made them.. and that preference was something that was out of their control... but the bible is so clear on it...
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Post by Brick on Dec 10, 2006 15:15:29 GMT -5
but the bible is so clear on it... There are a few people or three on here who might disagree with you on that. And yes, the topic has been debated exhaustively.
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Post by mrleo on Dec 10, 2006 15:18:43 GMT -5
What Brick said - lol!
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Post by Bacon on Dec 11, 2006 12:41:27 GMT -5
Im new to this board so forgive me if this has already been discussed. My friend is a wonderful person kind,sweet and just wnderful They are also gay. I wonder everytime i read the verses that say that its an abomination to God... what that means for them. Im not professing, just wondering what that means for them as a Christian (they arent at the moment but I want to ask them to come to an alpha course with me...) Surely God made them.. and that preference was something that was out of their control... but the bible is so clear on it... My friend is a wonderful person kind, sweet and just wonderful. They also eat pork. I wonder everytime i read the verses that say its an abomination to God.....what this means to them. The bible is so clear on it.
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Post by c6h7687 on Dec 11, 2006 19:10:55 GMT -5
Im new to this board so forgive me if this has already been discussed. My friend is a wonderful person kind,sweet and just wnderful They are also gay. I wonder everytime i read the verses that say that its an abomination to God... what that means for them. Im not professing, just wondering what that means for them as a Christian (they arent at the moment but I want to ask them to come to an alpha course with me...) Surely God made them.. and that preference was something that was out of their control... but the bible is so clear on it... homosexuality is a sin that is no worse or better then any other sin in the bible. we are all born with a human nature attracted to sin. some sins are easy for us to stay away from, others are much more difficult. the worst sin regarding homosexuality is the current agenda to promote it as not a sin. anytime you take something that god despises and try to convince people that he doesnt despise it, you are committing a very serious sin.
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Post by botany on Dec 11, 2006 21:29:25 GMT -5
Im new to this board so forgive me if this has already been discussed. My friend is a wonderful person kind,sweet and just wnderful They are also gay. I wonder everytime i read the verses that say that its an abomination to God... what that means for them. Im not professing, just wondering what that means for them as a Christian (they arent at the moment but I want to ask them to come to an alpha course with me...) Surely God made them.. and that preference was something that was out of their control... but the bible is so clear on it... If I understand you correctly, your friends are not Christians... Then why should they follow or worry about the Christian details? And presuming you are a Christian and not a Muslim, do you worry yourself about the details of the Quran? And out of curiosity, what is an "alpha course"? andy
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Post by to c6h7687 on Dec 12, 2006 6:09:58 GMT -5
I think you are telling the P00F, the whole P00F, and nothing but the P00F !
Well done for championing a just cause !
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Post by Gene on Dec 12, 2006 12:48:53 GMT -5
. . . the worst sin regarding homosexuality is the current agenda to promote it as not a sin. anytime you take something that god despises and try to convince people that he doesnt despise it, you are committing a very serious sin. A great evil associated with the topic of homosexuality is the current agenda to present personal opinion and belief as universal truth: that homosexuality is wrong; that a gay union cannot be a good thing; that homosexuals need to go straight or be celibate in order to be upstanding members of society, and that society is right in making laws based on those opinions, the aim of which is to limit the rights and responsibilities of gay men and lesbians because of their sexual preference.
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Post by Mark on Dec 12, 2006 17:30:12 GMT -5
Gene, I'm afraid that God did not give us the liberty of sexual preferences. He made woman for man. Heterosexuality and fidelity within the confines of a marriage is what God wants.
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Post by I wonder on Dec 12, 2006 17:56:55 GMT -5
Gene, I'm afraid that God did not give us the liberty of sexual preferences. He made woman for man. Heterosexuality and fidelity within the confines of a marriage is what God wants. Mark, what does the bible say about this subject and where is it in the bible? Also, what does the bible say should be done with people who practice homosexuality? Do you recommend that the "orders" from God in this regard be carried out? If not, why not? Don't you take great pride in obeying your God and following His every wish and command?
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Dec 12, 2006 18:37:11 GMT -5
Gene, what do you think the bible says about homosexuality?
So far, the only verse I have found that makes the argument of homosexuality is Leviticus 20:13- If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination.
But, I have found verses that most will say "man is for woman and woman is for man". Genesis 2:23-24- The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh"...For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and they will become one flesh.
I think it's hard for conservatives to accept homosexuals as there is no approved homosexual relationship in the bible.
A friend of mine makes the argument, "Leviticus says eating swine, eagle, etc is an abomination. Well, we can eat pigs and such now... so can't we mate with whomever we care to?"
I don't even pretend to know the answer to this.
I was taught homosexuality was wrong. (The whole, "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve," comment.) I also know it's not my place to judge. Right now, I feel that it is between that person and God.
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Post by Jessi on Dec 12, 2006 18:54:23 GMT -5
Lev 18:22, 20:13 - God's Moral law, which transcends the Levitical Law in the story of Sodom, beginning in Gen 18:16. Romans 1:21+ in the NT is pretty explicit. I Cor 6:9, 18. Vs 18 specifically says that sexual sin is worse than other sin.
The thing is, homosexual people are people first--and so approached as those who need the truth. God's Law is Truth (Jn 17:17, Ps 119:142).
God DID make us all and He knew we would commit sexual sin -- why else would he specifically name it? And to homosexual people, if they will hear and be healed, He will give them what they need to withstand their failure. We don't have to give in to the temptation . . . like any other temptation. Christ died for all. Homosexual people included. Those who hear the law have ears to hear. Christ didn't do away with His MORAL LAW. He made a provision for us to ensure that we can uphold it - through His righteousness and His alone.
Jesus is King, Jessi
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Post by whimpie on Dec 12, 2006 19:01:44 GMT -5
Gene, what do you think the bible says about homosexuality? So far, the only verse I have found that makes the argument of homosexuality is Leviticus 20:13- If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. But, I have found verses that most will say "man is for woman and woman is for man". Genesis 2:23-24- The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh"...For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and they will become one flesh. I think it's hard for conservatives to accept homosexuals as there is no approved homosexual relationship in the bible. A friend of mine makes the argument, "Leviticus says eating swine, eagle, etc is an abomination. Well, we can eat pigs and such now... so can't we mate with whomever we care to?" I don't even pretend to know the answer to this. I was taught homosexuality was wrong. (The whole, "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve," comment.) I also know it's not my place to judge. Right now, I feel that it is between that person and God. So will you stand by as it is promoted? Will you teach your children its okay? Will you encourage them to explore their sexuality as teens? Will you go to your childs gay marriage? Are you familiar with political correctness? Lots of pressure to blend and not speak the Truth. Certainly the old gay bashing thing is overdone, but when they promote their sin as okay. The Bible says different. We are all sinners, but saying a sin is not a sin is EVIL
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Dec 12, 2006 19:33:28 GMT -5
Did you note anywhere in my post where I said I am FOR it? I think not. Did I say it was not a sin? No. Do not assume anything. I also make it my point to research both sides of the argument.
I ASKED for Gene's views.
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Post by whimpie on Dec 12, 2006 19:44:01 GMT -5
Did you note anywhere in my post where I said I am FOR it? I think not. Did I say it was not a sin? No. Do not assume anything. I also make it my point to research both sides of the argument. I ASKED for Gene's views. Sorry ! ............................
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Dec 12, 2006 20:10:03 GMT -5
Ish Okay.
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Post by Mark on Dec 12, 2006 20:17:27 GMT -5
We are told we are "all" born in sin and shapen in iniquity. This is as a result of once perfect man disobeying God and thus producing imperfect offspring.
The human nature we are born with has inherent weak tendencies.
For some that may be a proneness to steal. Others may be prone to lying and cheating. Others may be quick to anger Others may be prone to jealousy Others may be promiscuous Others may be prone to infidelity Others may be proud Some may be attracted in the wrong way to children Some may be drawn to their own sex for intimacy And so on.......and on............and on........
We can soon end up with a list of the failings in human nature in which we each can identify with two or three of these things for ourselves.
We each have a duty to be aware of our misgivings and instead of trying to justify them, we should be making an effort to control them. It is about personal discipline. Not about saying this is natural or this is the way God made me so it must be alright. It is not about feeling good about our failings or justifying them. It is about being honest with ourselves.
If we are honest with ourselves we are on the road to mastering our weaknesses. If we are dishonest with ourselves, our weaknesses master us.
The easy thing is to say, I was born like this so its okay. The hard thing is to say "I've got a problem, I'd better do something about it !"
Being attracted to male hips is only one problem humans are afflicted with, and yes it only pertains to a certain percentage of the population. However, we all have our battles to fight.
You can be the "nicest guy in the world," but if that also makes you the "nicest gay in the world" that is a terrible thing. It is more dangerous than if you were a hardened brute of a gay.
Why ?
Because, people will be sucked in by your appealling manner and say "heck, I thoughts gays were bad guys, but such and such is really nice.... I might change my opinion about gays and accept them !" The bad gays keep the thing in perspective for the decent folks, because it reinforces "hip-hopping" is WRONG - BIG-STYLE !"
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todd
Senior Member
Posts: 270
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Post by todd on Dec 12, 2006 21:04:22 GMT -5
judge not lest you are judged- there are many transgressions listed in the BIBLE - what is yours.
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Dec 12, 2006 21:47:35 GMT -5
I dont understand why homosexuality is held up so high and pointed out.... when there are so many other sins that hurt people even MORE.
Cheating spouses, people leading double lives, and all sorts of dishonesty abound in the world today. Why aren't there just as many people speaking out about unfaithfulness as there are speaking out against homosexuality!?
I am NOT a perfect person, and I have done some pretty horrible things. I am not going to blast someone for being gay- because it is NOT my place. We all have addictions, habits, and such that God does not approve of. I feel like people attack homosexuals because it is often more obvious than, say, a person who is a prescription drug addict, or even a thief.
Because of what I've done and where I've been, God has taught me a valuable lesson. WE ARE NOT TO JUDGE. If so, we might find ourself in a position where we are FORCED to better understand the thing we critical about.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't have strong beliefs, morals, etc. But I am saying that LOVE is much better than judgement.
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Post by How about this on Dec 12, 2006 22:00:38 GMT -5
Lev 18:22, 20:13 - God's Moral law, which transcends the Levitical Law in the story of Sodom, beginning in Gen 18:16. Romans 1:21+ in the NT is pretty explicit. I Cor 6:9, 18. Vs 18 specifically says that sexual sin is worse than other sin. The thing is, homosexual people are people first--and so approached as those who need the truth. God's Law is Truth (Jn 17:17, Ps 119:142). God DID make us all and He knew we would commit sexual sin -- why else would he specifically name it? And to homosexual people, if they will hear and be healed, He will give them what they need to withstand their failure. We don't have to give in to the temptation . . . like any other temptation. Christ died for all. Homosexual people included. Those who hear the law have ears to hear. Christ didn't do away with His MORAL LAW. He made a provision for us to ensure that we can uphold it - through His righteousness and His alone. Jesus is King, Jessi Jessi, you quote Leviticus as the unchangeable word of God right? Tell us, do you believe ALL of Leviticus is the word of God and MUST be followed to the letter? How about this little jewel: Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Tell us Jessi, is this quote valid or invalid? Do you agree it is God's command or don't you?
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Post by whimpie on Dec 12, 2006 22:06:55 GMT -5
I dont understand why homosexuality is held up so high and pointed out.... when there are so many other sins that hurt people even MORE. Cheating spouses, people leading double lives, and all sorts of dishonesty abound in the world today. Why aren't there just as many people speaking out about unfaithfulness as there are speaking out against homosexuality!? I am NOT a perfect person, and I have done some pretty horrible things. I am not going to blast someone for being gay- because it is NOT my place. We all have addictions, habits, and such that God does not approve of. I feel like people attack homosexuals because it is often more obvious than, say, a person who is a prescription drug addict, or even a thief. Because of what I've done and where I've been, God has taught me a valuable lesson. WE ARE NOT TO JUDGE. If so, we might find ourself in a position where we are FORCED to better understand the thing we critical about. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have strong beliefs, morals, etc. But I am saying that LOVE is much better than judgement. Your acceptance and approval is something they crave !! They want to be approved and loved like anyone else does. But they will have to stop insisting on a stamp of approval on their behavior.We all know the power lust can have over us if we let it. They would obviously rather be dead than give up their carnal feeding habits. Where is the judgement? Why does this subject keep coming up? Why do I take the bait? Why, Why, Why, Oh, the humanity !!
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blatent disobedience
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Post by blatent disobedience on Dec 12, 2006 22:16:57 GMT -5
Gene,
You live in absolute rebellion to God - and willingly.
You know God is against homosexuality. God is not going to bless what He does not stand for.
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Post by sin requirement on Dec 12, 2006 22:59:01 GMT -5
First of all, they will be put to death, Spiritually-speaking. Continual sinfulness is evidence of rebellion against the Holy Spirit. If we continually commit a sin (regardless of which one it may be) we are not walking in the spirit. Temptation comes to us all, but when one willing commits a sin that is known to be against God's Word, one does not have the spirit leading them. The Holy spirit does not influence us to commit sin.
In this time of Leviticus, the blood would be on the heads of the sinner. Remember, sacrificial blood was the method of atonement in the Old Testament. Animal sacrifices were the used method, but were not enough. When Leviticus was written, allegorically speaking, the blood would be the responsibility of the sinner. This was attempted to be remedied by killing an animal in the sinners place. The penalty for sin was death. Animals were sacrificed but to no avail. They weren't enough in God's eyes.
Then came Jesus who spilt His blood for us, negating the requirement for our own atonment sacrifices. He paid our sin-debt to God for us. God, now, would not condemn a repentent homosexual if they were truly repentant, and discontinued their sinful lifestyle.
If they do not receive the Holy Spirit, and Christ's covering for their sin, they will, indeed have the responsibility of their own sin. Their repayment will never be enough for God, because His requirement is perfection.
Our own sin is our own responsibility. We can do one of two things with it: 1. Try and pay God back, which we will never be able to succeed. [or] 2. Ask Jesus to cover our sin, receive Him as our Savior and repent of our sinful ways.
We all need to do this. But, it has to be of our own will.
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Post by juliette on Dec 12, 2006 23:10:38 GMT -5
Again, I love when people who post anonymously are so quick to pile on.
I've wanted to jump into this debate for a while, but I don't have much time and brain space to devote to long debates. First, I just want to say "amen" to withopeneye's post (but that's really not an unusual occurance). Why is homosexual behavior the end-all-be-all in crimes against God to some people? It gets less than 100 words in the entire bible. I personally think the reason is that it's the one "sin" many people can point to and know they will never commit because they're BORN straight. Anyone could conceivabley have pre-marital sex (and most of us probably did), commit adultary, have lust in our hearts, etc. Then there's the whole divorce and remarriage thing.. again... could happen! But if I'm straight, I know I'm covered on this one, so I can feel nice and righteous about something.
I'm not gay, so I've been pretty much willing to accept that there are many things I don't understand and homosexuality and God's will and this is one of them. I guess I feel that I have enough things to worry about that are relevent to MY salvation and relationship with God.
I think we can all agree that homosexuality is something you're born with. Also, sexual drive if a pretty big thing to deny. I'm not talking about giving into every sexual impulse. But how many of the straight people out there would like to not have sexual intimacy as part as of the relationship with their life partner. Or... how many of you would like to look at a life without a life partner?
But now I'm going to go out on a limb... knowing full well what's coming next!
I can not reconcile the Jesus I know and love with condemnation for two people giving themselves in love to each other... gay or straight.
Someone stated before that there are many things forbidden in the OT, and many of them we don't follow today. This was a very interesting point to me.
Of course, the NT does have one or two verses devoted to this. I have no answer for this, except that (gasp) I don't understand or agree with what I understand of everything I read in Paul's writings.
When I don't understand something (in the bible or in life) I try and go back to Jesus... his life, words, example and spirit. My main point is that at no point in the four gopsels do we read of Jesus speaking of this issue. We do read a few mentions of fornication, adultery, lust and divorce. I have to believe that if homosexuality were an issue of paramount importance, we would have a word or two from Jesus on the subject. The gospels are full, however, of warnings against judging your neighbor, pride, greed, self-righteousness, etc.
I know I've opened myself up to all sorts of attacks... so bring it on! At the very least, it should be some interesting reading. I'd like to request that people who post on this subject do so as registered users. If you really feel strongly about something, you should be willing to put your name behind it (or at least the fake name you've created for this board).
One last word... I'm always mindful in debates like this that our arguments among each other are meaningless. Only God knows and judges. All of our debating doesn't change a thing, and we probably don't understand half of what we're arguing about.
Juliette
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Post by Really on Dec 12, 2006 23:16:09 GMT -5
First of all, they will be put to death, Spiritually-speaking. Where does it say 'spiritually speaking'? It DOESN'T. Nor did it ever mean spiritually speaking any more than stoning meant spiritually stoning. You're doing what religious hypocrites always do: making it up as you go along. Picking and choosing what is physical and what is spiritual to suit your personal preferences. Either you buy it ALL or you don't buy any of it. Put your money where your mouth is. If you don't have the courage of your convictions -and you don't- just give it up. You're a hoax.
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Post by JackieLogged on Dec 12, 2006 23:19:54 GMT -5
I think we can all agree that homosexuality is something you're born with. Like you, I've been hesitant about jumping into this one. I agree with everything you've said in your post except the part I've quoted. I believe we're born with a 'first born nature' (human nature) but I do not believe any of us are born gay. I believe that homosexuality is one of many, many sins that God despises. Well...he despises all sin. He has given us provision for sin and he can give us the strength and desire to withstand temptations and avoid sin.
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Post by juliette on Dec 12, 2006 23:28:23 GMT -5
Jackie:
I always appreciate your posts. You are so honest and kind.
Do you know any gay people? Have you ever talked to someone who knew from the time they were 5 that they were different? Have you heard people describe the anguish of trying to make themselves be straight?
Juliette
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Dec 12, 2006 23:33:20 GMT -5
Jackie, I understand where you are coming from, but I must disagree. There are children who do not know anything about homosexuality, but feel they are better fit as a girl child instead of a boy, or the reverse.
There are some people who are born with this "imbalance" as some would call it. Others come about it in a different way. For some, it's experimentation. For some of my gay friends, they can trace their decision back to a certain point- and for most, it was being molested at a young age.
While I wish that we didn't have these issues, we do. And because I am not God, I feel that I cannot make a specific judgement. I do agree that he can give us the strength to withstand temptations and sins.
I do know people who were formally very gay and are no longer... and... are genuinely happy being "straight" again. They have told me that it was only GOD who could have made it possible. It was beyond their control.
And, so, while I do believe in the power of God to change that, because I do not have this struggle, I cannot fully understand. I leave it to power of God. I will not vote for Gay marriages one way or the other. I do not have enough information to make such a choice. While on one hand I don't agree with it, the other side is still exploring and searching God for my beliefs.
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