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Post by JackieLogged on Dec 12, 2006 23:40:21 GMT -5
Juliette and WOE, I appreciate both your posts and I'm glad to be talking about this with you guys rather than the ones who attack attack attack.
I suppose I just can't believe that a child/baby could be born gay when such a thing is an abomination to God. (my belief) I don't believe that God makes people that way.
Juliette - I do know gay people. I have 2 male, gay cousins. One of them believes he was born that way, the other says he wasn't. lol
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Dec 12, 2006 23:45:28 GMT -5
Again, I understand, because I once felt the same way.
But, we are all born with sinful desires.... we are all born sinners... at birth! So, with that in mind, it's not a far stretch.
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Post by juliette on Dec 12, 2006 23:48:54 GMT -5
Jackie: So I'm wondering what you think the deal is with people who are gay... that it's a choice? I personally can not imagine having sexual relations (or even mouth kissing) another woman. Why would someone make a choice like this... when it brings so much pain? Also, I too appreciate the debate in a respectful, not attacking manner. I think it makes a difference when people post with their identity.
WOE: I get the sexually abused thing as a reason. But all of the gay people I know were not abused. They just always knew.
My friend read an interesting book about sexual differentiation and things that happen in-utero. Having an XY or XX chromosome set is only the beginning. There are different times in utero when the fetus is awash with hormones that cause physical sexual differentiation. Apparantly, there are things that can happen with hormones and other things pre-birth that differ from the norm of fetal development process. Makes you wonder?!
Juliette
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Post by JackieLogged on Dec 12, 2006 23:55:14 GMT -5
I can think of some reasons people would be attracted to members of the same sex by choice.
Depending on each individual - it can be an issue of lust, being in a "taboo" relationship can be arousing/stimulating. Maybe they've had heartbreak and negative experiences with members of the oposite sex and are not resigned to being alone, so they look elsewhere.
I agree that it doesn't make much sense to choose a lifestyle that brings so much critique and bashing and pain. But I think that's exactly what we do.
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Post by juliette on Dec 12, 2006 23:59:02 GMT -5
Jackie: I can see your points (but I personally think they would only account for a small percentage of gay people). It is true that many people choose relationships that are harmful to them. Juliette
It seems strange that a bunch of straight people are talking about why people are gay... anyone with expertise in the area care to jump in?
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Jackie
Senior Member
Posts: 790
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Post by Jackie on Dec 13, 2006 0:00:50 GMT -5
It seems strange that a bunch of straight people are talking about why people are gay... anyone with expertise in the area care to jump in? lol ! I was just thinking the same thing. (I figured I might as well just log in since it doesn't look like I'll be going to bed as quickly as I was planning to)
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Post by juliette on Dec 13, 2006 0:03:24 GMT -5
Jackie: Are you really only 20? How'd you get so smart, so soon? Juliette
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Jackie
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Post by Jackie on Dec 13, 2006 0:07:03 GMT -5
Jackie: Are you really only 20? How'd you get so smart, so soon? Juliette That's such a nice compliment!! Thank you! Yah I'm 20, and I don't think I'm that smart, just inquisitive.
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Dec 13, 2006 0:10:23 GMT -5
Inquisitive is definitely a good thing. Why is it, as we get older, we tend to stop asking questions? Is it because we think we should have all the answers, expecially when we start having children?
I hope I never stop being inquisitive. I love to research and gather information.
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Post by justamom on Dec 13, 2006 0:10:53 GMT -5
My partner has known from the time she was a young girl that she was gay... she told me that from the time she can remember she has been attracted to women...
Once she got to be a teenager she dated a few guys to please her mother, but she was never happy dating them. She told me that her relationship with them didn't fulfill her and she didn't like being with them. As friends, yes.. but as their girlfriend, no.
She didn't like playing the straight role because she wasn't being true to herself.
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Post by Steeped in self on Dec 13, 2006 0:17:25 GMT -5
How should we understand the following verses, especially verse 27?
(Rom 1:17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
(Rom 1:18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
(Rom 1:19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
(Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(Rom 1:21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(Rom 1:22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
(Rom 1:23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
(Rom 1:24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
(Rom 1:25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
(Rom 1:26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
(Rom 1:27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Regarding the comment that it is no different than any other sin. I believe it is different. As members of the Body of Christ if we truly believe Gal 2:20 we are committing fornication with a part of the Lord's body. I Cor 6 makes this point in vss 18-20.
(1Co 6:18) Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
(1Co 6:19) What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
(1Co 6:20) For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Listen this is a desire I can truly understand as I have these desires and tendencies myself, but this is an area in which I truly must die to self unless I am willing to come under heavy judgement. It is something I constantly struggle with, but believe I must put my own desires aside in this matter and submit to the Lord's will.
Steeped
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Post by justamom on Dec 13, 2006 0:17:37 GMT -5
It seems strange that a bunch of straight people are talking about why people are gay... anyone with expertise in the area care to jump in? I hesitate to jump into this subject because I have had some hurtful things said to me on this board once I came out.... I am not afraid to talk about who I am, but I refuse to talk to anyone who will sit and attack me for who I am...
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Jackie
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Post by Jackie on Dec 13, 2006 0:22:02 GMT -5
I hesitate to jump into this subject because I have had some hurtful things said to me on this board once I came out.... I am not afraid to talk about who I am, but I refuse to talk to anyone who will sit and attack me for who I am... I completely understand that, and would feel the same. I agree with this, Steeped. It's my belief as well.
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Post by justamom on Dec 13, 2006 0:25:51 GMT -5
I will, however, join the conversation... Although, I will backout once I feel that it is turning into an attack...
Discussions are great.. as we all can learn from one another... attacks are so unnecessary and go nowhere fast....
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Post by juliette on Dec 13, 2006 0:30:11 GMT -5
Justamom: Thanks for contributing... I know it's a hard subject. I've avoided it for a while, and I'm not even gay!?
Steeped: Only two of the verses you quoted are at all meaningful on this subject. Also, I can completely not accept your argument that this sin (if it is a sin) is worse than all others. First... people are so hung up on sexual sins. Sexual sins in general have their own natural consequences (unwanted pregnancies, broken homes, etc.) and they can be quite terrible. Our bodies however, will one day be gone, and our spirits will live forever with God. I truly believe that God is much more concerned with sins of the spirit.
Again.. I go back to Jesus. His teachings are all about our spirit and how we treat others. Sins of the spirit are so much harder to hide. And so much harder to overcome.
Juliette
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Post by justamom on Dec 13, 2006 0:34:53 GMT -5
For many many years I fought my desire and attraction for the same sex... and it was the most miserable and unhappy years of my life....
I couldn't find the peace and happiness in my relationships....I really tried.. but I just wasn't happy..
Finally, I decided to be true to myself and come out, once I did then the peace and happiness and contempment came over me that I have never felt before.... that was 19 months ago.. and those around me can see a change in me... and have asked me what I have done different in my life....
Life brings us all sorts of wonderful things.
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Post by Fred Johnson on Dec 13, 2006 0:38:16 GMT -5
Again, I love when people who post anonymously are so quick to pile on. Then we can assume that because I have registered that the words I write carry more weight? This sounds like shooting the messenger. Perhaps there are so few words because God was so very clear in those few words that same sex relationships are wrong and are a one way ticket to hell. If you are not a homosexual and not engaging in that behavior you really have nothing to worry about as far as this one crime goes. It is those who flaunt God's will and continue to kick against the pri cks (not in a literal sense) who have to worry. They can twist and turn the words but they never change. You can believe this but you cannot present ant facts to back up your belief. And no, we do not all agree. That is why it is such a big sin in the bible. It is better to cut off your hand if it offends you than to be condemned to hell. It would be better to go through life alone than to enter into a relationship which has been condemned by god and end up paying for your transgressions with eternal damnation. Brave girl! Are you saying the forgive and forget bit applies to people who act against what God has said? There are moral laws and civil laws. Jesus fulfilled the civil laws but the moral laws continue on forever. Homosexuality was and still is wrong. Come on - you don't understand or you don't want to acknowledge what it says in plain English?!? Jesus did not have to say anything about homosexuality because everyone he was speaking to knew the law and knew homosexuality was wrong. Jesus was teaching the things people didn't already know. The new way for mankind. You have stated your opinion. Don't start whining when people state theirs in opposition to yours. And God has said homosexuality is an abomination to him. What could be more clear? Fred
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Post by justamom on Dec 13, 2006 0:40:58 GMT -5
Juliette,
It can be a very hard subject for some to discuss... I have found out that it either brings out understanding and compassion in some... and rage and hatred in others....
Most everyone I run into have their own take on the subject... which to be honest... doesn't matter to me.. as I am not hurting anyone by being in a relationship with my life partner...
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Post by Steeped in self on Dec 13, 2006 0:42:19 GMT -5
"Steeped: Only two of the verses you quoted are at all meaningful on this subject." That is your perception Juliette. I was simply trying to qoute them in context.
"Also, I can completely not accept your argument that this sin (if it is a sin) is worse than all others." I made no such argument.
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Post by juliette on Dec 13, 2006 0:44:47 GMT -5
Regarding the comment that it is no different than any other sin. I believe it is different. As members of the Body of Christ if we truly believe Gal 2:20 we are committing fornication with a part of the Lord's body. I Cor 6 makes this point in vss 18-20.
Steeped.... sorry, I overstated your position.
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Post by Steeped in self on Dec 13, 2006 0:51:58 GMT -5
Very thoughtful post. Thank you. Steeped Again, I love when people who post anonymously are so quick to pile on. Then we can assume that because I have registered that the words I write carry more weight? This sounds like shooting the messenger. Perhaps there are so few words because God was so very clear in those few words that same sex relationships are wrong and are a one way ticket to hell. If you are not a homosexual and not engaging in that behavior you really have nothing to worry about as far as this one crime goes. It is those who flaunt God's will and continue to kick against the pri cks (not in a literal sense) who have to worry. They can twist and turn the words but they never change. You can believe this but you cannot present ant facts to back up your belief. And no, we do not all agree. That is why it is such a big sin in the bible. It is better to cut off your hand if it offends you than to be condemned to hell. It would be better to go through life alone than to enter into a relationship which has been condemned by god and end up paying for your transgressions with eternal damnation. Brave girl! Are you saying the forgive and forget bit applies to people who act against what God has said? There are moral laws and civil laws. Jesus fulfilled the civil laws but the moral laws continue on forever. Homosexuality was and still is wrong. Come on - you don't understand or you don't want to acknowledge what it says in plain English?!? Jesus did not have to say anything about homosexuality because everyone he was speaking to knew the law and knew homosexuality was wrong. Jesus was teaching the things people didn't already know. The new way for mankind. You have stated your opinion. Don't start whining when people state theirs in opposition to yours. And God has said homosexuality is an abomination to him. What could be more clear? Fred
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Post by Steeped in self on Dec 13, 2006 0:53:42 GMT -5
S Regarding the comment that it is no different than any other sin. I believe it is different. As members of the Body of Christ if we truly believe Gal 2:20 we are committing fornication with a part of the Lord's body. I Cor 6 makes this point in vss 18-20. Steeped.... sorry, I overstated your position. That's OK. No offense taken. I appreciate your passion. Steeped
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Post by Observing on Dec 13, 2006 0:56:45 GMT -5
Juliette, It can be a very hard subject for some to discuss... I have found out that it either brings out understanding and compassion in some... and rage and hatred in others.... Most everyone I run into have their own take on the subject... which to be honest... doesn't matter to me.. as I am not hurting anyone by being in a relationship with my life partner... My observations: This is a subject that will always polarize the people who read and write here. There is an agenda in place on both sides of the fence that distorts the biblical quotes and adds meaning when there is no clear reason to do so. From what I have seen (and in the years I have been registered I have been watching a lot and posting little) there needs to be a thread that addresses a single point in clear non-emotional terms. Every threat on this subject I have seen always explodes into lengthy quotations that mushroom into small novels. As some wise poster said - "there are only a few hundred words in the entire Bible concerning homosexual behavior". Maybe an approach would be to examine each verse and then move on when that is complete rather than trying to address everything in a single post. Problems I can see are the different meanings that have been attached to the text. Was it homosexual behavior as we know it or was it homosexual behavior in environments that have little if any meaning today? In a very literal sense, a man cannot lie with another man as a man lies with a woman. A man lying with a woman traditionally involves intercourse, p e n i s and v a g i n a. Since this is not possible with two men perhaps there was some other reason for that text. This was just going to be my 2 cents but it unfortunately turned into about $1.50. sorry
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Post by Steeped in self on Dec 13, 2006 1:10:33 GMT -5
"Problems I can see are the different meanings that have been attached to the text. Was it homosexual behavior as we know it or was it homosexual behavior in environments that have little if any meaning today?" I don't understand...what do you mean?"In a very literal sense, a man cannot lie with another man as a man lies with a woman. A man lying with a woman traditionally involves intercourse, p e n i s and v a g i n a. Since this is not possible with two men perhaps there was some other reason for that text." ::)Ummm...OK I think you might use your imagination a little I agree that this subject does seem to be an emotional catalyst, but it seems that most are being totally respectful of the differing understandings/opinions held. Steeped
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Post by Gene on Dec 13, 2006 1:15:49 GMT -5
Gene, what do you think the bible says about homosexuality? Hi withopeneyes - I think the OT and Paul in the NT taught that same-sex activity is wrong. But my experience and observation has led me to believe otherwise.
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Post by Steeped in self on Dec 13, 2006 1:23:18 GMT -5
Gene, what do you think the bible says about homosexuality? Hi withopeneyes - I think the OT and Paul in the NT taught that same-sex activity is wrong. But my experience and observation has led me to believe otherwise. Dear Gene, Just on the "new covenant" end of things...do you question the scriptural authority of Paul's writings or is it something else? Thank you. Steeped
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Post by Steeped in self on Dec 13, 2006 1:41:08 GMT -5
If it is question of the scripural authority of Paul's writings, in view of the statement of 2 Peter 3:15, 16 we would also need to be skeptical of Peter's writings: (2 Peter 3:15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (2 Peter 3:16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (emphasis mine) (2 Peter 3:17) Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. That seems like a slippery slope indeed to start down. Yours in Christ, Steeped I must get some sleep. 5am comes much too early
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Post by juliette on Dec 13, 2006 1:44:51 GMT -5
I must get some sleep. 5am comes much too early Wimp!
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