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Post by Mr T on Jan 7, 2007 12:31:43 GMT -5
PS: your move
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Post by Mr T on Jan 7, 2007 12:42:26 GMT -5
PPS: the link looks cranky, however if you google gay conversion and click on the second listing (AP wire) you will be directed to the page
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Post by Observing on Jan 7, 2007 13:15:27 GMT -5
PPS: the link looks cranky, however if you google gay conversion and click on the second listing (AP wire) you will be directed to the page Here is the link in a working form: www.skeptictank.org/hs/apanogay.htm
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Post by Mr T on Jan 7, 2007 13:22:23 GMT -5
Merci beaucoup
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Post by psychologist on Jan 7, 2007 14:04:52 GMT -5
Note the article says that treatment 'can harm people not wanting to change their sexual orientaton..... and another, they are against treatment solely to change their sexual orientation' The word solely is important.
There is no conclusive research on whether we are born that way or made. There is plenty of research to show that they are made that way, especially given what the first poster wrote that a lot of people who are gay have been molested, groomed etc. There are a lot who of course who are not, but the fact that a lot have shows there is some evidence that life experiences contribute to becoming homosexual.
I would say that some are born that way but that most have become that way because of circumstances in their life.
Are people born religious? I would say no, but we have a spirit which gives us a tendency to seek after God and we have the choice to reject or accept God because we have the capacity to and our upbringing has a great influence on that. The same for homosexuality, we all have the potential to be such and our upbringing (life experiences) have a great bearing on whether we choose to take that path or not. A person may be strongly religious while others are 'strongly' gay which I believe is partly due to a genetic predisposition with some people having a greater genetic predisposition for it religion, or homosexual lifestyle etc.
It is no longer considered a disease or problem as it does not affect their everyday functioning. They are mostly normally functioning people in society. A disorder is one if it affects our social, work and functioning in society. Homosexuality in most cases does not but it also does in many cases and people even commit suicide because of it, but this is more due to societies beliefs.
So, I believe everyone has the potential, some with a stronger genetic component than others, this together with life experiences and choices leads us to wards or away from that choice. In some cases life experiences is strong and influences the person, in other cases the genetic predisposition is stronger. Like genius' for example. There are a few genius' with most people having the ability to succeed given the write influences in their life (life experiences and choice to want to succeed) the same I believe there are a few that are genetically wired to feel more attracted to the same sex, most of us do have the ability to feel attracted to the same sex this with life experiences can lead us to accept this or not but we have the choice in most of these cases, the same as we have a choice to study etc to succeed in life we have a choice to choose a gay lifestyle.
Identical twin studies would need to be done to determine how much is genetic and how much is nurture. Just my 2 cents
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Post by webster on Jan 7, 2007 14:20:03 GMT -5
There was a documentary last year on this very subject. Identicle twins where one was gay, one was not.
I'm sorry that I cannot recollect who did the documentary. But what I concluded from watching it was that these twins were not only identical genetically, there were raised EXACTLY THE SAME. One mom of boy twins noted her gay son begin playing with dolls as a toddler where his straight brother played with trucks. Toddlers, mind you. And, at age 6 or 7, when given the choice of how to decorage their separate bedrooms, the straight son chose camoflague and the gay son chose butterflies and ruffles.
I am not homophobic yet I cannot imagine, even in my wildest dreams of being with someone (sexually) of the same sex! The thought is extremely repulsive to me.
So, with that in mind, I do not see how choice comes into the picture. I think you are either hardwired for that tendency or not.
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Post by mrleo on Jan 7, 2007 14:30:07 GMT -5
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Post by Correction on Jan 7, 2007 14:36:55 GMT -5
There was a documentary last year on this very subject. Identicle twins where one was gay, one was not. I'm sorry that I cannot recollect who did the documentary. But what I concluded from watching it was that these twins were not only identical genetically, there were raised EXACTLY THE SAME. One mom of boy twins noted her gay son begin playing with dolls as a toddler where his straight brother played with trucks. Toddlers, mind you. And, at age 6 or 7, when given the choice of how to decorage their separate bedrooms, the straight son chose camoflague and the gay son chose butterflies and ruffles. I am not homophobic yet I cannot imagine, even in my wildest dreams of being with someone (sexually) of the same sex! The thought is extremely repulsive to me. So, with that in mind, I do not see how choice comes into the picture. I think you are either hardwired for that tendency or not. Actually, while I agree with your position, your example contradics your position. If the twins are identical, their genetics would be as well, and if there is a "gay gene", they would either both have it or they would not. The fact that two genetically identical twins are different with regard to their sexual orientation suggests that homosexuality, at least in this case, was a choice at least, and at most a result of some non-genetic influence.
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Post by psychologist on Jan 7, 2007 14:41:37 GMT -5
correction to post 257
I wrote that, There is no conclusive research on whether we are born that way or made. There is plenty of research to show that they are 'made' that way, especially given what the first poster wrote that a lot of people who are gay have been molested, groomed etc.
Where I wrote there is plenty of research to show that they are 'made' that way. By 'made' in this instance I do not mean made in the sense of being born that way, but as made through life circumstances.
I am saying that some people are that way, but most are not. For most it is life experiences as we all have the potiental to be either although the potiental is stronger for opposite sex attraction life experiences can change that.
In post 258 where there was an identical twin study done the writer concludes that we are pre wired that way and doesn't see where choice comes into it.
This does not show that we are pre wired that way as identical twins share the exact same genes so if it was genetic/prewiring they would have both been the same.
And what kind of prewiring are you talking about as these twins are prewired identically? So it does not prove genetics is anything. Was one child held more by the mother than the father? and any number of things.
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Post by Mr T on Jan 7, 2007 15:27:43 GMT -5
While I have to conceed that that environment has some bearing on sexuality, the queston remains why can sexuality not be changed by environmental factors. Gay conversion therapies have a poor track record at best (refer to my last post). And other than anecdotal accounts, there is (at least to my knowledge) no empirical evidence to support thier efficacy.
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Post by ForeverFree on Jan 7, 2007 18:34:15 GMT -5
Well, if you believe in the Bible you know that according to James 1:13 God never tempted anyone. Well, there was that one time in Genesis 22:1 but who's counting. The key word is if. And if you don't believe in the Bible, then it's just another story...
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are there openly gay
Guest
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Post by are there openly gay on Sept 7, 2007 0:23:06 GMT -5
If a worker were openly gay, would they be removed from the work?
Maybe they would be paired with an openly gay worker of the opposite sex?
Have there ever been openly gay workers in the work?
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Post by juliette on Sept 7, 2007 0:38:17 GMT -5
There are biological influences beyond genetics that could in theory produce a homosexual orientation. For example... up to a certain point in fetal development, the genders look the same. Then, hormone surges in utero cause sexual differentiation. Could a male fetus who for some reason experienced a surge of typically female differentiating hormones in utero become gay? I'm not sure how this would explain the twins (one gay, one not), but I bet if someone cared enough to look it up (which I don't right now) you could find some sort of research on the subject. My friend read a book on the subject recently, and I'm just recalling some of what she told me.
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Post by interesting on Sept 7, 2007 0:52:27 GMT -5
It would be interesting, but impossible, to know whether homosexuality is more or less common today than it was 10, 200, or 3000 years ago.
In modern times, I've often contemplated the potential culprits. Modern chemicals, drugs, cultural behaviors, etc.
I guess we'll never know.
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Post by Not any longer on Sept 7, 2007 15:10:44 GMT -5
If a worker were openly gay, would they be removed from the work? Maybe they would be paired with an openly gay worker of the opposite sex? Have there ever been openly gay workers in the work? The last one I heard about was Dave N.
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Post by wingsofaneagle on Sept 7, 2007 17:10:22 GMT -5
Maybe its the same as the government policy... Don't ask... Don't tell?
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