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Post by choice on Jan 6, 2007 13:35:14 GMT -5
Why would anyone choose to be a child molester with all the stimas, guilt, violence and destruction it creates in a child's life?
Because someone made a CHOICE.
Whether one believes themself to be "born" homosexual, or not, the act of sexual relations between two people of the same gender is considered wrong by God. There is no way of getting around that unless you "choose" to disregard His Word. In that case, you are truly not a follower of Christ (regardless of your argument). We cannot pick and choose and rewrite what God has already deemed as His Word. We are then trying to be, in fact, - God.
You can't do that.
Direct denial of God's Word is also rejection of God's Word. The Bible clearly states that "in the beginning was the WORD, the WORD was with God and the WORD WAS GOD." God's Words are WHO He is. When you deny His words, you deny Him. When you deny Him, you reject the Holy Spirit and in the Bible that is THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN. Continuous rejection and disobedience of His Words will get you nowhere in eternity but AWAY from Him forever. That's a really long time and would be very heartbreaking and unbearable.
The Bible says this this will be the outcome for those that do not follow Him- not I.
Back to the act of homosexuality, when you are a "consenting" adult having sex with the same-sex partner I would consider that even worse than being "non-consenting," as would God. It is then that you are choosing to disobey God's Word and that is the same as rejecting God's word.
Again, rejecting God's Word will land you nowhere near Him in eternity. That is why God says we are to follow and live by every Word.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
"JUSTAMOM," you certainly do have a soul, but you are under the influence of the enemy, not of God.
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Post by justamom on Jan 6, 2007 13:40:00 GMT -5
Choices......
Well that is your opinion that I am under the influence of the enemy and you have a right to your opinion.. thanks for sharing it....
Have a wonderful weekend....
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Post by Mr T on Jan 6, 2007 18:14:28 GMT -5
OK i guess. The reason I used the term limbo was because while I am not actively attending meetings, I have certainly not renounced my faith either. To give you all a bit of background, I was raised first alliance. However when I was a teenager, the congregation split. My parents were put off by this and quit actively attending church activities. This left me in a bit of a lurch. So one summer a longtime friend of mine suggested that I come with him to '96 didsbury conventions. I enjoyed the message and after a year or so I professed. I continued in the church for up until about '03 when a combination of stress, school, getting married and entering the real world upon graduation culminated in a massive burnout and me ceasing any outside activity (meeting included). Anyhoo, now that I have had some time away from meeting I need to decide whether or not it is right for both my wife and I. Now, before you fire off a response, understand this, I have absolutely no qualms with meeting. I think that is a great path to salvation, however, I firmly believe that it is not the only path. If it was, then it would mean that salvation is directly tied to the edifice of meeting itself and not Jesus's sacrifice. This would make it a cult (or Catholic depending on how you look at it . Anyway, that's my story in a nutshell. Hope it sheds some light on where I'm coming from.
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Post by Mr T on Jan 6, 2007 18:38:39 GMT -5
Why would anyone choose to be a child molester with all the stimas, guilt, violence and destruction it creates in a child's life? Because someone made a CHOICE. Whether one believes themself to be "born" homosexual, or not, the act of sexual relations between two people of the same gender is considered wrong by God. There is no way of getting around that unless you "choose" to disregard His Word. In that case, you are truly not a follower of Christ (regardless of your argument). We cannot pick and choose and rewrite what God has already deemed as His Word. We are then trying to be, in fact, - God. You can't do that. Direct denial of God's Word is also rejection of God's Word. The Bible clearly states that "in the beginning was the WORD, the WORD was with God and the WORD WAS GOD." God's Words are WHO He is. When you deny His words, you deny Him. When you deny Him, you reject the Holy Spirit and in the Bible that is THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN. Continuous rejection and disobedience of His Words will get you nowhere in eternity but AWAY from Him forever. That's a really long time and would be very heartbreaking and unbearable. The Bible says this this will be the outcome for those that do not follow Him- not I. Back to the act of homosexuality, when you are a "consenting" adult having sex with the same-sex partner I would consider that even worse than being "non-consenting," as would God. It is then that you are choosing to disobey God's Word and that is the same as rejecting God's word. Again, rejecting God's Word will land you nowhere near Him in eternity. That is why God says we are to follow and live by every Word. Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."JUSTAMOM," you certainly do have a soul, but you are under the influence of the enemy, not of God. I don't think you caught the gist of my argument, I was not mounting a defence of Homosexuality per se. I was simply pointing out evidence which indicates homosexuality is hardwired, not chosen, and therefore cannot be 'fixed' by behavioral means.
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Post by to Mr T on Jan 6, 2007 19:06:52 GMT -5
Mr T wrote: I think that is a great path to salvation, however, I firmly believe that it is not the only path. If it was, then it would mean that salvation is directly tied to the edifice of meeting itself and not Jesus's sacrifice. This would make it a cult (or Catholic depending on how you look at it
To Mr T: thanks for sharing. You believe it is not the only path but the group teaches that it is the only path and most in the group believe that it is the only path to salvation. What the group believes makes it a cult not what you personally believe.
The group is a cult and this is one of the reasons why it is.
Is your wife professing in the group?
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Post by Mr T on Jan 6, 2007 19:41:26 GMT -5
No, she is not.
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Post by Gene on Jan 6, 2007 19:56:44 GMT -5
"Mr. T" wrote: I'm not sure if or why it matters whether homosexuality is a choice or not. Actually, it is men who wrote the original documents, men who selected which documents should appear in the bible, and men who then deemed it to be the word of God. And you think that WORD is the bible? Let's see now: Bible: less than 2,000 years old. God: been around longer than 2,000 years. = bible was not with God in the beginning. Glad we got that settled. So Baer and I are worse than rapists and child molesters? Your conclusion, my friend, is a great example of the moral perversion to which one is led when reading the bible without the discernment provided by the Holy Spirit.
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Post by wondering on Jan 6, 2007 20:09:00 GMT -5
pardon me, I am sure this verse has been discussed often, but wondering what do you all think of this verse?
Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones, and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed in their passions for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
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Post by Mr T on Jan 6, 2007 21:16:55 GMT -5
Ohhh boy, I know that responding to this is probably going to open a can of worms but here it goes. I believe that this verse and the references to Sodom and Gommorah refer to the fact that the individuals in these passages were sinning not because they were involved in loving, monogamous homosexual relationships but because they were engaging in homosexual practices because it was kinkier than their regular hetrosexual relations. In fact, I get the impression that with these people the family goat probably wasn't safe.
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Post by wondering on Jan 6, 2007 21:21:46 GMT -5
thank you - I am sure what we call homosexual once came under the generic title of fornication, no? Therefore, whether a man has sex with another man, a goat or his wife's sister it is all fornication.
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Post by Mr T on Jan 6, 2007 21:26:44 GMT -5
Probably, yes
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Post by Mr on Jan 6, 2007 21:34:54 GMT -5
Another point that I would like to throw into the ring is the the defenition of sin and how it applies to homosexuality. As far as I can see, sin can ultimately be defined as the pursuit of self interest, or self gratification. If you look at most accounts of homosexuality in the bible, they don't appear to be descriptions of individuals in commited, monogamous homosexual relationships. Rather they are descriptions of heterosexual individuals engaged in homosexuality as an extramarital affair. Long story short, is a commited, loving monogamous homosexual relationship wrong or is homosexuality wrong when it is a means of getting some sexual kink (i.e. self gratification)?
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Post by juliette on Jan 6, 2007 22:05:52 GMT -5
Mr. T: Interesting points! Welcome to the board. Juliette
P.S. Are you wearing a ton of gold chains around your neck? Do you "Pity da' fool"? Sorry... couldn't help myself!
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jude
Senior Member
Christ Follower
Posts: 588
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Post by jude on Jan 6, 2007 22:25:06 GMT -5
Just a thought... maybe it isn't a chosen thing, maybe someone feels that the are 'hard wired' But could that be because of the over all consensus of society that people are born that way?? I have a hard time believing that God created certain people to have to sin continually due to the fact that he made them homosexual? It does not seem right that God would intentionally set someone up for failure in his eyes.
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Post by Mr T on Jan 6, 2007 22:37:00 GMT -5
Which is why I wonder if homosexuality within the confines of a genuine, commited relationship is really that wrong.
PS: Juliette, no unfortunately I can't afford the gold chains, but I do pity fools. Thanks for the positive feedback, I hope your Sunday meetings are fruitful.
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Post by juliette on Jan 6, 2007 23:19:53 GMT -5
Mr. T: Our family recently left the 2x2 way (actually, looking back, we've been leaving over a period of a few years). So... we no longer attend Sunday meetings. Juliette
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Post by Mr T on Jan 6, 2007 23:57:01 GMT -5
Sorry, didn't mean to be presumptuous.
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Post by juliette on Jan 6, 2007 23:58:34 GMT -5
No problem!
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Post by ForeverFree on Jan 7, 2007 0:03:43 GMT -5
Why would anyone choose to be a child molester with all the stimas, guilt, violence and destruction it creates in a child's life? Whoooaahhh!!! Why are we discussing homosexuality and child molestation in the same topic? One has nothing to do with the other. This really shows how unlearned some people are.
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Post by Mr T on Jan 7, 2007 0:05:54 GMT -5
If you don't mind my asking what was the reason for your family leaving the church. (if you don't feel like elaborating I completely understand)
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Post by Observing on Jan 7, 2007 0:08:06 GMT -5
Just a thought... maybe it isn't a chosen thing, maybe someone feels that the are 'hard wired' But could that be because of the over all consensus of society that people are born that way?? I have a hard time believing that God created certain people to have to sin continually due to the fact that he made them homosexual? It does not seem right that God would intentionally set someone up for failure in his eyes. Well, if you believe in the Bible you know that according to James 1:13 God never tempted anyone. Well, there was that one time in Genesis 22:1 but who's counting.
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Post by Observing on Jan 7, 2007 0:08:27 GMT -5
Just a thought... maybe it isn't a chosen thing, maybe someone feels that the are 'hard wired' But could that be because of the over all consensus of society that people are born that way?? I have a hard time believing that God created certain people to have to sin continually due to the fact that he made them homosexual? It does not seem right that God would intentionally set someone up for failure in his eyes. Well, if you believe in the Bible you know that according to James 1:13 God never tempted anyone. Well, there was that one time in Genesis 22:1 but who's counting.
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Post by juliette on Jan 7, 2007 1:50:44 GMT -5
Mr. T: Short version, could no longer ignore the things I didn't agree with. Big one.... "the only way" thing. Also, focus on external measures of piety. Long version? Register and I'll send you a PM. Juliette
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Post by mrleo on Jan 7, 2007 1:59:47 GMT -5
I think it is a much more compelling argument to say that there is a greater consensus in western society that people are "hard-wired" gay or straight because people in the western world have had the luxury of education and the freedom of thought to actually consider the issue in an unsuperstitious manner in the first place and, second, regardless of hard evidence it is the most simple answer to an otherwise confounding set of questions: Why would anyone deliberately choose all the difficulties that generally come with being gay? Why would a reasonable God (according to our standards of reasonableness) set some people up for certain failure?
I have a hard time believing this too.
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truthwillalwaysstand
Guest
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Post by truthwillalwaysstand on Jan 7, 2007 2:43:17 GMT -5
There is no evidence suffiencient for this arguement. Homosexuality created in the womb is not proven scientific fact. It is mere speculatory theory. There is evidence enough that many people involved in the homosexual lifestyle were molested, raped or mentally/emotionally victimized, distorting their sexual perspective.
You are deemed just a man who thinks he has the answers to hat God is and what God said [or has not said]. How divinely directed are you and where is your *proof*?
The writers of the Bible were men of God who had no agenda but to preach and teach the truth - which was way out of bounds for what the current pharisical doctrine was prolificating.
Actually, it is yourself who has decided that the Bible is not the true living Word of God. Probably because for some reason (hmmm) it does not fit in with your lifestyle. There is a major contridiction. It is you, and I am sure others, who believe the Bible is a concocted book of fables that bear no reality in it's reasoning of truth.
But, Gene, the Bible is one of the most factually, historically, geographically, and scientifically provable books that has ever been written. That is why historians, archeologists and –yes- even scientists are able to refer to it to find accurate support for their studies. This is a fact.
We are told Jesus was a man but have never seen him. Jesus was also a man who did not write anything in the Bible. He words were told of, but it was not He who wrote them. His followers did. God did not and does not appear in person to anyone in His full, true form. Yet millions upon millions believe in Him.
So, should I rely on someone like you, who has no solidity of belief or provable facts that support your beliefs and un-natural lifestyle, who also has no reverence to discontinue what God says in wrong? Should I believe as you, and rely on “assumptions” that God’s Word are actually man’s mere fictional stories that are completely uninspired from God and unprovable?
OR
Do I rely on historically provable documentation that points to provable history, provable geography, natural laws (which are soooo evident) and the personal experience that living for Christ and following God’s instructions (not always perfectly) with SUBMISSION is to live in truth.
I’ll choose God’s Word over your unstable and unprovable theories anytime.
Point received?
Good.
You are not any better. The difference is you are 'concenting' to victimize one another into continual sin. Inadvertently, this will effect you negatively if you do not sincerely leave what God has said is wrong.
The good thing is His grace is always there for the taking, but you have to want it and accept His truth. Right now, you do not. God says homosexuality is not natural, it is not His design, it is not His intention for you and it is sin.
I find this statement tremendously amusing due to it's ill-attempt to induce some level of guilt. You applied to the wrong person. Sorry.
You, Gene, bear no evidence in your heart – in the inner man that you know - of the Holy Spirit. You have another spirit controlling you.
Yes, it is wrong. Any homosexual relationship is wrong. God did not create a man to have sex with a man or a woman to have sex with a woman. Consenting or non-consenting, it is homosexual, it falls under the category of fornication and it is still wrong to God.
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Post by Gene on Jan 7, 2007 5:23:18 GMT -5
It is you, and I am sure others, who believe the Bible is a concocted book of fables that bear no reality in it's reasoning of truth. I have not said that, nor do I believe that. I have said repeatedly on this board that I believe the bible to contain great wisdom and inspiration. No guilt intended at all. Just pointing out the perversion in your sense of right and wrong, and the fact that you have the audacity to say "it's not me, it's God who said that!". It is rationale like this that truly frightens me (and angers me), because where does it stop? I have no problem with you believing homosexuality is wrong, and conducting YOUR OWN life accordingly. But you've gone beyond that. You pick something out of the bible that agrees with your warped sense of right and wrong, you attribute the edict as coming from God, and then -- what? How far do you take it? I'm sure with you it stops with words and votes, but others take it much further and become violent, all in the name of God. Ai-yi-yi! Dear God, please save me from Your followers!
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Post by mrleo on Jan 7, 2007 9:59:41 GMT -5
What qualifies as sufficient evidence? You could have more credibly said, "I don't believe what you believe."
Lots of things are mere speculatory theory. Let us know when the scientists identify the Holy Spirit under a microscope.
This evidence comes from gathering statistics, from interviews with people. There are also "many" gay people who were not molested, raped or mentally/emotionally victimized, but "many" doesn't really have any meaning in a real debate, does it?
Where is your proof of this? The Bible?
Again, what is your point? Did you not decide what you believe? It's different than what Gene believes, so you disagree with him.
Sounds a lot like mere speculatory theory.
A fact? "One of the most"? What are some of the others? You believe the Bible and the Bible supports what you believe.
How do you know you haven't seen him? Can you prove that you haven't seen him?
Some people believe that the scripture is literally God-breathed (divinely inspired), and therefore He is the ultimate author. Perhaps you're not one of them.
Now that you've argued with and persuaded yourself, I'm sure you feel much better.
Mere speculatory theory.
I suppose it must be a bit startling when the guilt-inducing shoe is on the other foot, but tremendously funny? Really?
You can see into other people's souls through a computer? Can you provide scientific evidence of your conclusions?
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Post by Mr T on Jan 7, 2007 12:30:06 GMT -5
truthwillalwaysstand wrote: There is no evidence suffiencient for this arguement. Homosexuality created in the womb is not proven scientific fact. It is mere speculatory theory. There is evidence enough that many people involved in the homosexual lifestyle were molested, raped or mentally/emotionally victimized, distorting their sexual perspective. Actually, there is a strong consensus within the psychological community that homosexuality is hardwired. I would like to direct your attention to the decision of the American Psychiatric Association's 1998 decision to unanimously reject gay conversion therapies. A link to this article can be found at www.skeptictank.org/hs/apanogay.htm.
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