|
Post by Steeped in self on Dec 13, 2006 1:52:28 GMT -5
S I must get some sleep. 5am comes much too early Wimp! My stamina definitely isn't what it used to be God bless you all. Goodnight
|
|
|
Post by justamom on Dec 13, 2006 1:53:59 GMT -5
Good night Steeped.... sweet dreams....
|
|
|
Post by juliette on Dec 13, 2006 1:56:38 GMT -5
Good night Steeped.... sweet dreams....
Hetero dreams only... of course!
|
|
|
Post by Steeped in self on Dec 13, 2006 1:57:57 GMT -5
A
Good night Steeped.... sweet dreams....
Ditto
|
|
|
Post by justamom on Dec 13, 2006 1:58:26 GMT -5
*covers mouth with hand and starts to snicker and chuckle*
|
|
|
Post by really disagree on Dec 13, 2006 2:36:38 GMT -5
First off, everyone is born straight. People are not born gay. God did not design His creation to be anything but in the likeness of His image. The babies he creates are not born and designed by Him to be sexually steered to the same sex (regardless of what Freud says). Children are influenced in the homosexual direction, usually by an adult, another child or by images they are exposed to. Almost all are related to a molestation experience that distorts their cognitive conscience when they are exploring their sexuality. I know this, as I have worked professionally with children and people caught in these sexual traps. Over and over again they are found, in psychological evaluation, to be influenced negatively by their environments.
Bull, regardless of the sarcasm. No one who walks with the Lord feels good about their sin, straight or not straight. Anyone who truly walks by Christ's spirit is directed by His spirit into righteous living. If one is sinning, the Holy Spirit will - no doubt - influence them and convict them to abandon the sin and seek forgiveness.
That's fine for you, but it is not what God's Word says to do. We are to be accountable to one another. When we are sinning, it is our responsibilty to bring to the light, in love, one another's sin. Pointing out wrongs is not evil, nor is it considered wrong by God. I had a dear friend do that with me. After being lovingly influenced, I was convicted of the sin, by her and the Holy spirit and left the sinful act. 2-1/2 years later I am so grateful to her for doing so. It was hard to face when she confronted me, but, she spoke truth. No one can escape truth forever. God's Word is the truth.
Let me say this: If you know a child is playing out in the street where a car may come by at any minute, would you let that child continue to play in that street, or would you call to them and tell them they are going to get hurt?
It is the same with sin. There is nothing wrong in pointing out that someone is not living as Christ commands them live.
God designed a man and a woman from the beginning. With these two, He enabled them to propagate life and the human race. That was God's original design. You can not get away from the FACT that God is in great opposition to homosexual relationships. They do not propagate life, they do not encourage family unity, and they do not follow God's design of husband and wife.
The marriage of man and wife is one of the molds that base the relationship the church has with Christ. The church is the bride of Christ.
Spin your logic anyway you want, but your logic will never usurp God's authority and His written statements on how he feels about homosexuality. His design and intention He has for His creation is designed to be man for woman and woman for man. There is no other justification, Biblically. Arguing with it does not hold and never will.
(ps - I've had many, many temptations to engage in sexual relationships outside of marriage. But, I didn't because I know God says it is wrong. When you are tempted, that does not mean that you have to yield to temptation, homosexual or heterosexual)
|
|
Maggie
Senior Member
Posts: 347
|
Post by Maggie on Dec 13, 2006 6:00:02 GMT -5
.......First off, everyone is born straight. People are not born gay.......... ...... I know this, as I have worked professionally with children and people caught in these sexual traps. Over and over again they are found, in psychological evaluation, to be influenced negatively by their environments...... First off, surely you are as ignorant as the rest of us as to what "causes" our sexual orientation. There is lots of considered research and anecdotal evidence to support both views of the "born or made" debate and variations of the whole spectrum in between. To suggest that you know with certainty is ignorant at best and more likely also arrogant in the extreme. You also suggest that psychological evaluation indicates that people who are not heterosexual have been "influenced negatively by their environments". Well, for goodness sake, haven't we all, you and I included. I can be pretty darned sure that you have had influences in you life that have had a negative influence on your sexuality, regardless of your sexual orientation at this present time.
|
|
|
Post by Mark on Dec 13, 2006 6:22:04 GMT -5
Gene is it possible that because hertain activities fulfill a weakness in your make-up that it seems right to you and therefore you have been led to believe in things that "are right in your own eyes !"
I am not being critical here, merely asking you to be honest with yourself (and us).
Please note, although I am not homosexual, I have other tendencies which I acknowledge are wrong (and probably on a par with homosexuality in severity). However, it is very easy for me to justify these things in my own eyes (nothing could be easier), but I realise that I have a responsibility to resist these desires.
Part of the Lord's prayer is "Lead us not into temptation, for temptation is sin." I believe Jesus recognised we all have weaknesses that we have to take to God in prayer and look for his strength to be led away from those things which overcome us.
|
|
Jackie
Senior Member
Posts: 790
|
Post by Jackie on Dec 13, 2006 8:50:03 GMT -5
Part of the Lord's prayer is "Lead us not into temptation, for temptation is sin." I don't agree with this part of your post. I've never read in the Lords prayer 'for temptation is sin'. It is not a sin to be tempted. Jesus was tempted of the devil in the wilderness, but he withstood that temptation. Jesus was without sin. It becomes sin if we give in to our tempations.
|
|
|
Post by Mark on Dec 13, 2006 9:07:07 GMT -5
Jackie, I'm afraid Temptation IS sin ! Who does temptation come from ? God or the Devil ?
Temptation to commit sinful acts quite clearly is sin in itself since this is a pathway away from God's will. However, being tempted does not make a person a sinner until they yield to the temptation.
Does temptation lead us into God's will or away from it ?
It is opposed to God isn't it ?
Since there IS sin in temptation, then temptation IS sin ! Period !
|
|
|
Post by Brick on Dec 13, 2006 9:16:06 GMT -5
I must disagree with you, Mark, on the basis of James 1:12 "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." I hardly think that if temptation was sin, that there would be a blessing that could come from it.
|
|
|
Post by Steeped in self on Dec 13, 2006 10:18:18 GMT -5
In regard to the comment(s) that people are born homosexual: In this particular post I'm not making reference to those who have (as in my case) bisexual tendencies, only those who are true homo(same)sexuals. Making the case that they are born with it implies that there must be a genetic component to it (homosexuality). If that were the case "homosexuality" would eventually cease to exist. My reason for saying this is, since true homosexuals "usually" don't reproduce they would eventually die out and disappear from the gene pool. We certainly don't see that happening. For this reason, I believe it is an acquired desire and behavior shaped primarily by experience. In my own experience, I can look back at events in my youth that shaped my thinking and desires in the matter and I have to admit that when I did engage in it there was, (even tho I wasn't a Christian at that time) a great deal of the Holy Spirit bearing witness with my spirit that I was a creation of God and that He didn't create us to use our bodies this way. You can insist that I was just feeling guilt due to societie's(sp) indoctrination. Maybe, but I can tell you that society was trying to indoctrinate me on other issues that my spirit (or I might have called it my "inner self" at that time) was telling me (my) society didn't have a clue. Anyway, I'm rambling so I'll sign-off for now, but please don't think my intention is to condemn anyone. I am just making observations out of my personal experience.
In His Love, Steeped
|
|
|
Post by JMHO on Dec 13, 2006 10:18:49 GMT -5
Temptation in some cases is a testing by placing something before us to see if we would do something or refrain from doing something.
It could also be a prompting/urge to do something or not do something. May be something good/right or something/wrong.
However God does not tempt us to do evil.
Brick I believe the context of James speaks to the one who endures as in resists, does not yield to temptation, thus when he is tested/tried (and resists) will be blessed.
JMHO
|
|
Jackie
Senior Member
Posts: 790
|
Post by Jackie on Dec 13, 2006 10:22:25 GMT -5
Jackie, I'm afraid Temptation IS sin ! Who does temptation come from ? God or the Devil ? Temptation to commit sinful acts quite clearly is sin in itself since this is a pathway away from God's will. However, being tempted does not make a person a sinner until they yield to the temptation. Does temptation lead us into God's will or away from it ? It is opposed to God isn't it ? Since there IS sin in temptation, then temptation IS sin ! Period ! Mark, are you saying that Jesus sinned? He was tempted by the devil ! He was tempted to turn stone into bread....etc. You said that "being tempted does not make a person a sinner....". So how are we sinning if we're tempted but resisting? Your post doesn't make sense to me.
|
|
|
Post by Mark on Dec 13, 2006 11:07:00 GMT -5
Jackie, did you read my post No. 65 ?
Quote "However, being tempted does not make a person a sinner until they "yield" to the temptation !"
Jesus "had" to be led into temptation by the Devil to prove he was the Son of God. Notice the things he was tempted with after having fasted 40 days and forty nights. There was not a lot wrong with what the Devil offered him or asked him to do (considering his weakened condition) but to have succumbed to any of them would have been to have sinned against God.
Jesus knew temptation and that it was only sinful and thus had it included in The Lord's Prayer "to lead us not into temptation," for to succumb to it is sinful. If the appeal in temptaion was not sinful, then neither would the action be sinful.
Jesus equated our thoughts with the actions of sin. A man may desire a woman and the thoughts of carnal knowledge may enter his head. This is just as sinful as carrying out the deed, even though we may never entertain actually carrying out the deed. Yet temptation was taking root.
Jesus was tempted in all things for our sake. However, I do not believe he let even one wrong thought enter his head, which for me shows he "was" God in the Flesh (to have such power).
Had he allowed any wrong thought (which accompanies temptation) to enter his head, he would have "sinned." This is by his own definition of sin.
Temptation is sin. Look at it like this. Murder is a crime. Theft is a crime. In most cases crimes start of with temptation of some kind, but often a criminal doesn't realise they are being tempted and later on wonders "why did I do that !" Very often their weakness allows them to succumb to the temptation.
Temptation thrives upon opportunity. Without temptation we would avoid a lot of sin. Temptation cannot be anything other than a sinful thing. It appeals to the weaknesses of human flesh and causes it to grieve God.
Once temptation takes root in the mind (i.e. entertaining thoughts of the action) we have sinned.
|
|
|
Post by beg to differ on Dec 13, 2006 12:23:15 GMT -5
True, and most of us will. But, that still does not give me permission or the validation to go against God's instruction for my life. If I chose to partake in activities or thoughts that go against God's Word and His commandments, I am simply wrong. There is no way around it.
I do believe that homosexuals are not born homosexual. I strongly believe that individuals who have chosen this lifestyle are programmed into this way of thinking by various influences that are brought on by the enemy himself. Most cases of homosexuality have experienced either a molestation of some sort or have had a very negative encounter with a parental-type figure.
Tho many homosexuals will not admit to it, either by blatent denial or by subconscious burial, most have had an experience that distorted their views on sexuality. Stating that homosexuality is something people are born with is the same as saying pedophiles are born with pedophilia. This is so far from the truth. God does not create people to molest children, rape women, and bomb buildings. Nor does his design man to lie with man and woman with woman. This is all the work of the enemy who uses manipulation - convincing people in their minds that what God says is wrong is actually right.
You can argue with me all you want, but you know in your soul God does not support or ACCEPT homosexuality.
Homosexuality is a choice, just like taking drugs is a choice. Both are really hard to give up - and both are wrong.
There is nothing that cannot be overcome with the aid of the Holy Spirit, if one is willing to surrend to Him.
|
|
|
Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Dec 13, 2006 12:26:32 GMT -5
Mark, see, in one of your posts, you say temptation is a sin. So, while you might have said "yielding to temptation" is a sin, you also said temptation in itself is a sin.... several times.
If temptation in itself was a sin, then Jesus would be a sinner. Temptation is a TEST. The world is filled with temptations:
Sexual temptations. Financial temptations. Food temptations....
Withstanding temptions means seeing it, and saying, "No... that's not for me."
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Dec 13, 2006 12:43:31 GMT -5
Hi withopeneyes - I think the OT and Paul in the NT taught that same-sex activity is wrong. But my experience and observation has led me to believe otherwise. Dear Gene, Just on the "new covenant" end of things...do you question the scriptural authority of Paul's writings or is it something else? Thank you. Steeped For me, the bible is a book of great wisdom and life guidance, but I do not believe that what we have today as the bible is entirely the inspired, infallible word of God. We have a book written by men, not by the finger of God. As such, the bible (for me) is not the final authority. More important to me is experience, observation, and what I believe to be the guidance of the Spirit. When those things lead me to a conclusion contrary to the apparent teaching of the bible, I conclude that either my interpretation is wrong, the record we have is inaccurate, or the original author was mistaken.
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Dec 13, 2006 12:46:55 GMT -5
First off, everyone is born straight. People are not born gay. God did not design His creation to be anything but in the likeness of His image. . . Not that it matters for this discussion, but as an interesting side note, do you mean to imply that God is heterosexual?
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Dec 13, 2006 12:55:15 GMT -5
Children are influenced in the homosexual direction, usually by an adult, another child or by images they are exposed to. Almost all are related to a molestation experience . . . I doubt that is true, but would be interested in any serious research on the topic. There are no written statements from Him - only from men to whom we have attributed the authority of God. And I do not.
|
|
|
Post by botany on Dec 13, 2006 13:23:48 GMT -5
Some serious questions here... I'm not trying to pick a fight. 1) Is homosexuality a conscious choice? 2) Did god in fact mean for sexual and other intimate relationships to be only between one female and one male? 3) Does the moral concern of homosexuality extend to life forms other than humans? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My own explorations of the questions... 1) Yes and no. I don't think it is any more conscious than one's instantaneous assessment of the attractiveness of another person. Some of it certainly is conscious, but another portion remains unconscious. What are the proportions? It varies from person to person. Do we accept conscious thought in other animals? If not, then the many other animals in which homosexual behavior is observed is done upon some other impulse. Among such animals are flamingos, dolphins, bonobos, gorillas, and deer. (This list in not exhaustive.) But, sexual behavior done at times other than "in heat" is not likely instinct. What would it be? Pleasure. What does it indicate? Conscious thought of two individuals of the same sex to participate in sexual acts. This includes masturbation as well as intercourse. 2) God is a man-made concept, so the question should more accurately ask, "Does man feel that sexual and other intimate relationships should only occcur between one male and one female?" It seems that a majority of the population feels so. I wonder what the actual, fundamental reasons for this belief is? Fear? Disgust? Something else? My own answer to the original version of the question is "no". How can an abstract concept postulate ideas? God isn't saying so, people are! 3) Hmmm... morality only seems to concern humans and other life forms with regard to how they affect humans. I believe this is because the bible preaches that humans are above animals, and the interpretation that animals do not have souls. I wonder how the clergy feels about homosexuality that has been observed in other animals? Do they care? Is it passed off as an example of the "devil's work"? andy
|
|
|
Post by botany on Dec 13, 2006 13:31:01 GMT -5
withopeneyes wrote: I think this is because homosexuality is an "easy" target that some people can say, "Look, I'm not gay! That person is." But, could that same accuser claim to not have "coveted [his] neighbor's [wife]"? How about loving the enemy? How about stealing? How about the plethora of other "sins" that it seems so many people "commit"? You see, the people aren't so clean of those other "sins", so if they point a finger they will get millions of fingers pointed right back at them. The idea of making such a big deal out of homosexuality as a sin is the insecurity that rises out of self-rightousness. So, the moral of the story is: point out someone else's allegedly larger fault to cover up my own many faults. andy
|
|
|
Post by UBS2YYN on Dec 13, 2006 13:48:55 GMT -5
withopeneyes wrote: i have to disagree with you.. i see your point about how there are so many other sins (like adultry) and we spend so much energy complaining about homosexuality.. but the difference is that many pple (even on this board) are claiming that homosexuality is not wrong and is not a sin in God's eyes. and i think that is what gets pple more riled up then just the act. no one is saying its ok with God to hate your neighbor, be an adulterer, or have premarital sex. or lie, or cheat, or steal. and i agree with the claim that all sin is sin.. none is worse then others. however, taking somethign that is sin and trying to convience pple it isnt, is a whole new sin. and that is what has pple up in arms.
|
|
|
Post by mrleo unplugged on Dec 13, 2006 14:04:58 GMT -5
It all comes back to biblical interpretation and conviction of what is a sin and what isn't. For instance, there is a group of people who would like to convince another group of people that women wearing pants is a sin, a sign of not being aligned with the Holy Spirit, of being in rebellion against God. And they don't think they're being judgmental at all...they think they're being helpful in pointing out the error of their brethren (or sistern). But the people who don't believe that women wearing pants is a sin think those other people are not only mistaken, but judgmental and self-righteous.
And some of the people who don't believe that women wearing pants is a sin believe that homosexuality is a sin, a sign of not being aligned with the Holy Spirit, of being in rebellion against God. And they don't think they're being judgmental at all...they think they're being helpful in pointing out the error of their brethren (or sistern). But the people who don't believe that homosexuality is a sin think those other people are not only mistaken, but judgmental and self-righteous.
And so it goes...
|
|
|
Post by Gods evidence on Dec 13, 2006 14:19:02 GMT -5
You have a body designed to fit into a woman - not a man. You have internal parts that can propagate life only with a woman - not a man.
How much more tangible evidence do you need?
The Bible is not Satan's authority either.
Choose how you will, Gene, but you know your lifestyle is not acceptable to God.
|
|
|
Post by Mark on Dec 13, 2006 14:21:07 GMT -5
Re Temptaion (to woe and others).
Jesus is recorded by at least three of the Gospel writers warning the disciples about entering into temptation (not carrying out the deeds). Temptation is the preparing ground for sinful deeds. Once you entertain/think about the deeds you have entered into temptation. I do not believe Jesus EVER entered into temptations, i.e. thought about the deeds because that would have been sin, even though the thoughts did not progress to the deeds.
Temptation is to be resisted, not entertained. We can think about lustful or sinful deeds through temptation without ever having any intention of seeing them through physically. This is sin.
Where temptation is not sin is where we do not allow the thoughts of such to influence our minds. In other words we switch of to temptation before we enjoy its mental fruits. This is what I believe Jesus did.
Matt: 26:41 "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation; the spirit indeed is willing' but the flesh is weak."
In other words stop sinful deeds at their source, i.e. sinful thoughts. Jesus is not warning about the sinful deeds themselves, but warning about sinful thoughts which he elsewhere equates to sinful deeds.
It is like a book. Once you open a book you are partaking of its contents. If you see a book but ignore it you are not. The book can be viewed as "Temptation" but you have not entered into it if you "resist" it and leave it alone (you pass the test !). If you pick it up and have a quick look at it then you have partaken of it.
Once you have partaken of it you are more likely to partake of the practical side.
|
|
|
Post by mrleo unplugged on Dec 13, 2006 14:24:12 GMT -5
LOL! How can you resist something without thinking about it?
|
|
|
Post by hawk on Dec 13, 2006 14:55:12 GMT -5
And lo, leakiness is the most common error of our cistern. And pointing it out mayeth be the problem in the first place. For lo, if thy pointer is sharp, thou wilt causeth a leak. So lo, be nice to your cistern.
|
|